Decision Decision

[StickyHands]

Hi, How are you? I am new here. My father has a back problem, his cartillage in the lower spine have hardened and started to form calcium. So as of now, no surgery would help. So the doctor said to follow some kind of slow and strenuous exercise to regain some flexiblity, otherwise he gets these constant pains every other month. I was wondering which one of these three internal arts would contribute the most? Thank you so much.

As for myself, I am also interested in taking an internal art for MA training. As I read so far, all internal styles should cover evasion and mobility right? Helk, that's the intergral emphasis of any good MA right? What I dont understand is if that's the case, what's the point of spending lifetime on circle walking of Ba Gua Zhang, which is said to integrate those tactics as a result. Does that mean the other arts have less mobility? I think I am left in confusion there. And it seems Xingyi and Tai Chi both have same way to generate power, as in using the whole body as a weapon to release burst of power from a slow movement, etc, then how is it that their generation of power is quite different? And does Xingyi also incorporate Chin Na as well as spinning, jumping, and flying kicks as do Tai Chi? Thank you so much.

If you dont mind, I'll also ask this, what distinguishes from the Old frame, New Frame, and Small frame of Chen style Tai Chi? thank you.

So unlike my father, I am less bent on health benefits and more excited about fighting/self defense emphasis taught at a fast pace (not too fast, as I know it's not external MA). Thank you.

[Becca]

My dad had back surgery a few years ago, and found tai chi to help him alot. Don't realy know much about it, myself, but he swears by it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

From a practical perspective i would begin in a Yang style class.. from there i would evaluate other styles from a comparative view-point and choose a final path that suits your personality.. Once you begin Internal training it will be easier to evaluate various styles and you should have access to much more educated opinions..

For me, personally, Yang was an excellent foundation for adventures into other styles.. good solid basics..

Be well..

[StickyHands]

Thank you, and I still would like to hear coherent opinions from other practitioners as well, Xingyi, Bagua, Tai Chi.

[wingchunner]

I've had two back surgeries. The latest was 2 years ago.

I would recommend Tai Chi... and find the best instructor you can find and afford. Even if you have to fly cross country. A little time spent with the best is better than a lot of time with someone that is so-so... especially when the lower back is involved.

My back problem wasn't a result of doing MA, rather it was probably from injuries I sustained as a youth combined with juvenille artheritis.

I don't recommend Bagua (pakua). It's too complex and if you do have lower back problems, if you don't have proper structure you will do more damage than good. The same is true for tai chi and shingi (xingi). But because of the twisting, the ba gua is more strenuous on the lower back. I do wing chun rather than shing i ,though I have trained in it some, I don't really recommend wing chun because of the long term standing puts a lot of pressure on the lower back. Hsing i also has a lot of twisting and is very explosive, not as good. Tai Chi is my best recommendation, but finding an excellent instructor is a MUST.

Hope this helps.

Marty

[Vapour]

Yoga?

[Fu-Pow]

Chi Gung?

[StickyHands]

Yoga and chi gung has a lot of twisting, especially yoga, it actually get the yin and yang out of u. lol. So to tell my father to do yoga would very irresponsible and destructive.

[Muppet]

The strategy of bagua, hsing i, and taiji are somewhat different, with the biggest difference being between taiji and hsing-i/bagua.

Yes, they all share the same body mechanics and have chin-na, strikes, jump-kicks, take-downs, etc.

However, not all teachers may have the know-how or desire to teach it all and jump moves are spare in the internal arts. In hsing i, the monkey form probably has the most jumps if you're wondering.

Also, the method of power generation is the same, regardless of what anyone else may say. The same springy coiling power that chen taiji people train to develop in silk-reeling exercises is used in bagua and hsing i, though it's developed with other training methods.

In terms of fighting, hsing i and bagua are kind of the same animal. Even the basic footwork looks very similar, but bagua training emphasizes more evasion and indirect approaches whereas Hsing I has no problems with just going straight in. But keep in mind that this is a gross generalization. In a large sense, the two are complementary.

Now taiji, on the other hand, is its own animal because of the extra tools developed in push hands: Taiji has a huge emphasis on rooting and finding the center of the other person. It also has the concept of borrowing the opponent's power (remember the springy, coiled body mechanics?) to strike back out at the opponent.

The founder of kyokushin karate relates how a frail taiji master apparently defeated him effortlessly: http://crane.50megs.com/index6j.htm

This kind of strategy understandably takes years, but apparently, if you're good at it you're in a league of your own.

[StickyHands]

Unless one devotes his entire life to Tai Chi, training every minute could be spared, have a natural ingrained talent for it, like Oyama or Itosou of Karate did or Chen of Chen Tai Chi, and basically becomes the zenith and dogma of his or her's life; I think it's best to say I finally found what I always thought of Tai Chi as:

"Another famous Shotokan Karate master, who is also dead now, once remarked to his student that,"Taiji is a very powerful art, but it is an art for superhumans. For us ordinary humans it is better to stick to Karate." This is said after he witnessed a Taiji master shake an entire wooden house with deceivingly light palm strikes to one of its pillars. But let us come back to the subject of Taijiquan. I'm sure all of us have heard legends & myths of certain Taiji masters winning effortlessly against challengers of other styles, or performing superhuman feats using internal power - Chi. How many of those stories are true? It is hard to tell, surely. The art of Taiji is a paradox for Chinese Martial Science. Afterall, it is something invented by an Immortal (Zhang Sanfeng).. if the legend is true, that is. But even if it is false, there are still millions of people around the world practicing the 5 main styles of Taiji, & the so-called masters also number thousands. Out of these millions how many can actually attain the efficiency level of Mr Chen? Perhaps only 1 in 10000 can. The rest of the 9999 probably can't use Taiji to defend themselves even if their lives depended on it. Thus there's a saying in Taiji,"Practicioners of Taiji can't step out of the house for less than 10 years." My Baji Grandmaster, Liu Yunqiao also once remarked that, "In Baji, either you are a General of men or you are nothing at all." While I'm no General of men, I believe this is even more so for the millions practicing Taijiquan. That is not to say that Taiji is inefficient, but rather, it is so profound a martial art that it is only useful in the hands of a rare few. Maybe true Taiji is almost dead today. Compared to Muaythai, Karate, or even Sanda, in which 8 out of 10 practicioners will be able to fight in a short time, I think Taiji is something which is more suitable for the museum. That is true when refering to Taiji as a martial science, not as a health exercise for old folks. The reader may disagree, but then you must ask yourself: What am I learning Taiji for? If it is for practical purposes then you must again ask: Am I one of those superhumans? If so, good luck in your Taiji path, but if not, it is wiser to just give it up & go for something direct & simple; which will certainly lead you closer to the truth behind Chinese Martial Science."

(Excerpted from the site link above).

It's best to say, for the most of us, ...... lol, I dunno, you finish the sentence. But do you often find yourself admiring remarkable elderly asian martial artists that just sweeps you away with awe and disbelief? :D.

Otherwise, it is in my opinion a person good in Tai Chi in practicality of combat is just as good as practicing any other good external art. But when internal artists do defeat an external one, I think it's actually the person and his skills and dedication derived from the style. That is not to say that style itself doesn't have any affect on it, but I think more so, the person determines it with his natural abilities and trainining blessed with a good teacher rather than whether it's internal or external.

[Muppet]

Well, this the main reason why I gave up on learning taiji, the lesser reason being that there wasn't a single taiji teacher in the area worth his salt: Big reputations meant nothing when all of the students were clearly lousy.

Actually, the same could almost be said about my Hsing I teacher except he's good and the single student who was serious about learning and not concerned about the mumbo-jumbo is good too.

Anyway, unlike taiji, I could deal with Hsing I: The learning curve isn't as steep, flakes aren't as attracted to it, and even if what you're learning isn't with internal body mechanics, it's still quite usable.

Bagua should be the same way, but its pretty forms makes it a flake magnet, unfortunately :(

As for natural skills and good training, I haven't gotten far enough to tell though I haven my opinion:

Mas Oyama was arguably one of the best and most dedicated karate persons, but by his own admissions he was soundly defeated by someone who couldn't possibly have beaten him.

My take is that with any ma's arsenal, there's a point of diminishing returns in training, with some arts reaching that point sooner than others. Since the internal arts offer tools that most other MA are unaware of and as these tools take time to develop, there's more room to grow.

[StickyHands]

So what u sense learning xingyi right now? are u coping the internals or simply adapting to external fighting?? I think if u miss the internal, it's simply resorting to learning wing chun all over. Internal without a doubt, gives its massive power, otherwise if ur using aggressive style like that witout any internal venues, a bigger and stronger guy can kick ur ass easily. not u i mean, but generally.

[Muppet]

Well, since I have the luxury of time (I think), as far as Hsing I is concerned, I've been concentrating soley on the internal body mechanics, and at this point, I'm positive it's internal.

It's daunting, though. After about a year and meeting with some english-speaking people who "have it", I'm positive that I "got it".

But it's a whole different ball of wax strengthening that internal body mehanics to a usable level (tediously repetitive exercises required, which is where I'm at) and being able to align the body correctly on a dime while moving (five elements and two person sets).
After all that, THEN I can concentrate more on the applications. The instructor always throws in applications and that's where the concentration lies, but honestly, I don't want to get into the habit of doing hsing i externally.

As there is little room for error on the body alignment, all of this takes a lot of time and the last thing I need to worry about is bad habits.

But all that's way down the road. At the moment, I'm just at the "oh, I see" stage :(

If you'd like, I can point you to references (books and videos) that helped me immensely.

As far as external hsing i goes, I wouldn't say it's "just" wing chun all over again. Trips, throws and chin-na are available in Hsing I (provided the instructor knows them), where skill can compensate for strength to a point. There stories on Takeda Sokaku (daito ryu jujitsu), and the founder of Hap Ki Do (forgot his name) kicking ass during his geriatric years.

Power properly generated by hip rotation (most external styles, such as boxing) isn't something to just yawn about.

In fact, I take boxing since I need the hard workout and in a couple of months, it was amazing to see just how hard my punches would come out. Anyone who says that the gloves are put on to protect the opponent is quite misinformed.

But I agree. This isn't the near-supernatural strength and skill one reads about in those old stories.

[Muppet]

Lest I get flamed, standing (san ti, holding the ball/horse-stance, etc.), is critical in developing that strength too.

[HuangKaiVun]

Any of the three internal styles done properly and taught by a good traditional combat instructor will help a bad back.

The circle walk of Baguazhang is an outstanding exercise. In fact, the Taoists have been using it for centuries as a way of helping themselves physically.

Keep in mind that I don't do the flowery modern wushu Bagua extremisms.