What is the problem?

[Grabula]

What is the problem with wing chun and ground fighting? Why does it seem to be such a concern? To be completely honest I have only seen it touched upon once or twice in a few of the different schools I have attended. Does wing chun address the ground fighting at all? Doe sit have good answers? What are they?

[KingMonkey]

I cant speak for other WC styles but in WT we do deal with groundfighting. We seek to avoid going to ground and so train mainly anti-grappling techniques, we also train escape techniques from the ground, mount position etc.

[Grabula]

kingmonkey - what sort of anti-grappling techniques are you learning or studying?

[KingMonkey]

Well for example....

Versus a shootfighter seeking to come in tight and reasonably low a couple of options we train would be the following.

A little bit higher:-

- side step and turn with aggressive gaun-sau to the arm and strikes. ie palm to ear

Slightly lower:-

- long bridge gum-sau to the back of the neck, drive the guy to the floor using also his own momentum

[Grabula]

kingmonkey, thanks for your responses. Do you train this stuff against skilled grapplers or groundfighters?

Does anyone else address this thoroughly in their school or class?

[marcelino31]

GoodPoint KingMonkey!

Glad to here that some people think that WC can deal with grappling...


woof woof :p

[KingMonkey]

Do you train this stuff against skilled grapplers or groundfighters?
Unfortunately not. We try and base our shootfighting attacks on what we know grapplers do and try and make it realistic, but I couldnt claim to train this with any competent BJJ guys or shootfighters.

We also sometimes train hand techniques from the mount postion. ie non wc guy in full mount about to ground and pound, and the wc guy using lat-sao to defend and hopefully un- seat the guy above. The trick is gaining contact with the guys wrist as his attempted punch brings his weight forward and then pulling and thrusting with the hips at the same time. You should send him over your shoulder.....
:D
This is not easy or the last word in this sort of situation I will certainly admit but it can definitely work. I think I've seen a video clip of Emin Boztepe doing something very similar..... if I can dig it up I'll post a link........

[KingMonkey]

http://www.fightauthority.com/index.php4?vidid=310&vidTypeId=4&locationID=1

Of course this guy has awesome chi-sau..........

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Grabula

I have no problem with ground fighting. The interesting thing is Ground fighting has not traditionaly been part of wing chun. Yip Man did not lie on the ground and have Wong Sheung Leung attack him. It just did not happen.

People argue that ground fighting didn't exist or was not popular so Yip Man did not have to teach it. I will argue a bit in that Judo was around as well as Jujitsu. But perhaps more relavant was Shiu Chao. On top of that, people have been falling down, as one arguement brought up by pro ground fighters, since man decided to stand up and/or found the mirrcle of alchohol. LOL

So, Yip Man was probably familiar with people being on the ground, but still didn't teach it.

My POV is that wing chun is not a reactive art that deals with specific things as they happen. It is a proactive art that dictates the fight. Stoping a round punch, hook, or swing is not to block or attack the swinging arm, but to attack the body before it is thrown. I think the same applies to ground fighting. If you ended up on the ground, then you made a mistake and failed in the wing chun principles. I think we need to prevent being put on the ground. If we failed in our specialty standing up and were taken to the ground by a supperior fighter, what makes us think we can learn some groundfighting and expect to be proficient at it against the same person that jsut took us down?

With that said, do we just give up and lie down on the ground? No, of course not. But what do we do?

Tom
________
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[Grabula]

tparkerkfo, I think that is where the evolution comes in. For some reason ground fighting wasn't taught for a while and now it seems we have all but lost it. So we evolve like the other thread talks about, adapting what we know now.

[OdderMensch]

Yip Man did not lie on the ground and have Wong Sheung Leung attack him. It just did not happen.

I am curious how you know that so surely. I have seen books from the 60's that detail kicks from the ground, where then did this come from?

My POV is that wing chun is not a reactive art that deals with specific things as they happen. It is a proactive art that dictates the fight.

Exactly, however it also contains the ability to react if something unexpected happens, we can't always be proactive.

. I think we need to prevent being put on the ground. If we failed in our specialty standing up and were taken to the ground by a supperior fighter, what makes us think we can learn some groundfighting and expect to be proficient at it against the same person that jsut took us down?

What makes me think that is the idea my Sifu has pounded into my head that the fights not over till it's over. I expect proficency because I practice it in drills and in forms, over and over again. Will I ever be as skilled grapler as someone whom trains 6 hours of jujitsu a day? No, clearly not, but it seems odd that WCK would have such a large 'hole' in its theory as to simply ignore the possiblity of going to the ground.


Grabula
. Does wing chun address the ground fighting at all? Doe sit have good answers? What are they?

Yes. Yes. Ask your Sifu ;).

Ok ok, since you asked for specifics.....
One thing that makes WCK a terror on the ground is our ability, trained from SLT on, to generate 'dwan ging' or short energy. A very good grappler can supress or avoid by position most strikeing, but not all of it. Our grond fighting, or 'dai tong' sounds simmilar to KingMonkeys, ghans and gums to keep them at bay, but should they keep advanceing we learn to supress them useing the 'kwai sut' motion implied in SLT (and possiblly shown with more detail in latter forms.)

as my gum hits them in the neck they shift vectors to get my legs, I allow my gum to fold in to a ding jarn and pull my stance all the way in, till my one knee is on the groung, this places my bodyweight on his neck in a manner that I can control.

[Grabula]

sounds mostly reasonable to me oddermensch, things I have heard before or seen on my own.


Yes. Yes. Ask your Sifu

by the way, and I am not picking on you by any means, but I get this answer a lot and used to buy into that idea that it was a respect thing or a learning in phases thing but am pretty convinced now a days I hear this mostly because most people don't know the answer. Again, not picking on you oddermensch because you went on to explain yourself and it is appreciated. I am not looking for free internet lessons, just looking for good ideas and bouncing my own as well.

[KingMonkey]

as my gum hits them in the neck they shift vectors to get my legs, I allow my gum to fold in to a ding jarn and pull my stance all the way in, till my one knee is on the groung,
Oddermensch Im with you up until they shift vectors to go after the legs, can you explain the rest without reference to ding jarn. I do not know what this is.... maybe we have a wildly different spelling or call it by an English name... alternatively this is something new for me :D

[OdderMensch]

I think from now on, i might say something like, 'look to the kuit" instead. "when hands defend hands and feet defend feet, there are no seceret or unstopable manuvers."

but when you quote me, don't forget my ;)s!

How dare you misquote me :mad:!
How dare you misquote me :rolleyes:.
how dare you misquote me ;) :p :D
:confused: :mad: misquote :cool: ?

See the differnece?

[Grabula]

ACTUALLY, I meant to get that in there but for some reason it did not carry over in the quote, sorry :)

[OdderMensch]

If someone goes for my legs, i figure i've got a few options. One is I can let them get my legs and plan to land on top of them, in some form of sprawl perhaps.
another is I can move out of the way, by sidesteping, or shifting.
A third option is to let them gab my legs, lean back and wave my arms around trying to fly till I get my head busted in by the ground. :eek: (the later was my response before I learned any kung fu :D)*

As tparkerkfo states, WC wants to be proactive. If attacked, intercept! If you can see of feel the grab coming in, stop it. If they are a really good takedown artist, you souldn't see it coming, but as me sifu says, if you let anyone get that close and you haven't hit them yet, something is very wrong. If you have gained a bridge, use it to sense what they are doing and respond in kind. Assumeing a gum sao, a palm pressing on the neck or shoulder of the grappler, as you press down you should be moveing your lower body away from the incoming force, to a better angle. But if they are determined to get you they can also angle, either by spining away from your gum, or by going for a lower target.

If you back away, or angle again at this point, you are moveing backwards and a skilled person will follow you, its a loseing game for he person retreating as they will end up on bottom when it does get to the ground.

Instead sprial down into the gum sau, fold over the elbow to press on the neck and use your adduction to pull yourself into a kneelling posture, you should now be on the ground, but in a very good position to either stand back up, or finish things there.

As for ding jarn, it's the forward folding of the elbow, it might look simmilar to a 'lan sau'

*i always hear people talking about fighting with your natural instincts, I disagree, my natural instincts suck compared to haveing a refined skill. ;)

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Grabula,



tparkerkfo, I think that is where the evolution comes in. For some reason ground fighting wasn't taught for a while and now it seems we have all but lost it. So we evolve like the other thread talks about, adapting what we know now.

I may not be following you. When was ground fighting part of wing chun? When was it forgotten?

OdderMensch



Originally posted by OdderMensch
Yip Man did not lie on the ground and have Wong Sheung Leung attack him. It just did not happen.

I am curious how you know that so surely. I have seen books from the 60's that detail kicks from the ground, where then did this come from?


Well, I don't know for a fact. However, I have talked to many, many people and it is pretty much common knowledge that Yip Man did not practice ground fighting. Though I am always open to new info. What have you heard? And what book from the 60's? I though the first wing chun books were printed in the 70's except for maybe James Lee book. But I do not recall any ground stuff in that book.





What makes me think that is the idea my Sifu has pounded into my head that the fights not over till it's over. I expect proficency because I practice it in drills and in forms, over and over again. Will I ever be as skilled grapler as someone whom trains 6 hours of jujitsu a day? No, clearly not, but it seems odd that WCK would have such a large 'hole' in its theory as to simply ignore the possiblity of going to the ground.


The fight is not over till it is over. That is true. But I don't think there is such a large hole in wing chun. It is just a matter of perspective. The art doesn't practice ground fighting traditionaly by working on the ground. It practices ground fighting by preventing it from happening. Look at the foot work. It is very solid and rooted. It should be difficult to take some one down. The feet don't do any outlandish stepping so it should be difficult to trip.

Most of the people I see go to the ground do so for two reasons. One, they are fighting a professional ground fighter that is EXTREMLY skilled at what he does. Most of us do not fight top notch NHB people on a regular basis. Second, is that both fighters are street fighters and go down becuase neither have any reall skill and they end up wrestlling around. This is what I see and I think the later is more the norm. Most people are not experienced fighters in any style.

If your any good at wing chun, I think you should be able to fight before you go down. If you go down, then you made a mistake. The fight may not be over, but I think your wing chun options are limited. Some think there are many things you can do on the ground. There may be.

But we are talking a what if senario. If you get taken down, then you screwed up somewhere. But that is only the beggining. If you go down, say by a trip, there is a good chance that your gonna injur you head. If you get taken down, you probably will get slammed hard if the guy knows what he is doing. ALso, chances are there friends involved. In every altercation I have been in involved friends. Some times I had friends and sometimes I did not. So the last thing I wanted to do was go to the ground under any circumstances.

What do I do when on the ground? Well, I do what I can and apply what I know. First off, many targets are still exposed. Some wing chun things work. But you have to be good enough to be on your back rather than your stomach, which you may not have the option in a real encounter.

There is a limit to all our wing chun. We can not be a super man and defend against everything. One may feel that wing chun is this or that. People may adapt it to the ground, but it clearly is not designed for that any more than a screwdriver is designed for opening paint cans. It may be able to do the job, but it is not the best tool for it. Wing CHun may work on the ground, but I don't think it is the best tool for that. You want groundfighting, take up ground fighting. Just sharing my opinions.

Tom
________
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[Phenix]

Originally posted by Grabula
What is the problem with wing chun and ground fighting? Why does it seem to be such a concern? To be completely honest I have only seen it touched upon once or twice in a few of the different schools I have attended. Does wing chun address the ground fighting at all? Doe sit have good answers? What are they?


A note from a useless mad man

The older I get the more I belive in the way such as the O sensei of Aikido. Force, Technics, Special type of conditioning for Jing.... are great but ultimately it can't replace for the sense of knowing the Natural of oneself. It makes a heaven and earth different on whether one response with Yee naturally or not....

The older I am the more convince I am that natural is the key to everything because I cannot predict what you are going to use against me. But, I know, if I stick with natural I am to a great degree protected by natural. if I want to play I don't activate Yee so one can have fun to be push around. If Yee to penetrate is used then it is not play. But, World is more then win or lost. World is more then making enermy because I am always has to be right and better then you.

Body can lost the link but Yee used naturally will always connect.. weakness is strength when only when one is with natural.

It is not about power it is about grace.
It is not about anger it is about peace.
It is not about win or lost it is about compassionate and not hurting.
Who is number one? We have different faces. Who is most pretty or handsome? We all grow old.

What is spring? that is compassionate.
When all is over only compassionate stay.

[Grabula]

I may not be following you. When was ground fighting part of wing chun? When was it forgotten?

tparkerkfo, If there was ever an approach to fighting on the ground it needs to be rediscovered. If there wasn't to isn't, then it needs to be developed, hence evolution of a sort takes place.

Learning not to go to the ground is not the same as learning how to fight on the ground. It's a phase or range if you will. It's a good thing to do, because if you can stop going there then you should. But like all things it isn't 100% foolproof so what happens then?

There are all sorts of arguments as to how often fights go to ground or do not, or why, or who could make you. In my mind it isn't a question of IF ina good, well rounded martial artists mind, it's a question if WHEN. Being prepared for it doesn't mean you plan on it, just that you are prepared to deal with it as best you can.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Grabula,

If I agree with you, then this excellent discussion is done. It is too good of a subject to do that, so I will argue my point. My view is not that ground fighting is not worthy of wing chun, but does it fit within wing chun?

Wing Chun without ground work takes years to practice and get good. Most people start as young adults. Many spend years perfecting the art. Any ground fighting will add that much longer. Then the thought I have is how long can you ground fight for? Yip MAn was able to use wing chun upto close to his death. But I doubt he could have wrestled around on the floor. Some would say Helio could, but can he really wrestle a large strong opponent intent on injuring him? Can you say osteoperosis? I can, but obviously I can't spell it. LOL

You say we might end up on the floor. That is true. But we may also end up against a gun. Or perhaps a UFC maller, or perhaps a strange fate will have us fighting Leung Bik. Hwat if senarios are just that. We can not possibly account for every situation. You can get hit by a sucker punch or a lucky punch. Bith of which probably have better odds than going to the ground. Maybe depending on your enviornment you will find yourself on rough terrain with boots on, or a polished floor with dress shoes. Who knows. Do you spend vast amounts of time developing your skills on Grass and marbled floors?

I have never heard any one say that ground fighting was part of wing chun. I don't think it was lost, it just wasn't there. I find it odd that most Chinese Martial arts do not include ground fightin. In fact most martial arts do not. Judo is a recent invention and even they don't roll around on the ground much. Jujitusu did not until early on. THough they did explore alternative senarios like sititng or kneeling. I think there is a lot of good reasons that ground fighting has not been a major part of any martial art, becuase it is dangerous and not advantagous. It is not that people in the old days didn't fall down, but that you want to get to your feet as quickly as possible.

Heck, until the MMA phase, we were not concerned with fighting on the ground. We laughed at them. But they showed how effective it was. THat doesn't make our art any less effective. We need to better understand our art and how to apply it. Wing Chun was not designed to fight on the ground. It has some tools that work there, but that is not its strong suit. If we add ground fighting in, I think we would be adding differrent principles that would confuse the practicioner. And if we added these principles that don't follow, why not just learn ground fighting from the get go? Assuming you have time.

My thought is that wing chun is a stand up art and that is how it works best. JuiJitsu is a grapling art and that is how it works best. Jujitsu people don't need to focus on TKD kicks any more than Wing Chun needs to focus on Ground fighting. Your job in wing chun is to defend yourself quickly and succinctly. Don't buy into the huge MMA thing. Most people are not that skilled in real life. I doubt most people can defend against those animals even with groundfighting. Note you have not seen any succesful WCK in these events, nor have you seen any succesfull wing chun w/ groundfighting. These events are dominated by monsters who can train hours a day, feel little pain, and work the mat for days on end. They don't spend 1-2 hours a day on wing chun and squeeze in a little grappling on the side. Fighting on the ground is just as complex as wing chun and would take as much time.

Think of all those greats in wing chun. Take WSL. He didn't get great by fixing wing chun. He didn't add white crane to take advantage of kicking. He didn't add grappling and ground work to haddle that. He did study boxing, but gave it up for wing chun. You didn't see him bobing and weaving. In short, he was good because he trusted the system and worked hard at it. If he sliped and lost a fight, so be it. You can't prevent everything.

Tom
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[Lindley]

Grabula,

You post good questions. They say "90% of all fights go to the ground", but 100% of them start standing up. A Wing Chun person ideally trains to be a superior stand-up fighter. If your training limits you to focus only on techniques, then you will think there are deficiencies in the Wing Chun system. Wing Chun is a complete system. If one is trained to think more openly, you will find that mastery of any martial art gives you a "martial mind". At this level, you will find that you can grasp some value from looking at an application of a technique and get it in half the time! Why? Because at the true higher levels, it is the approach to the training that matters more than just the toolset of techniques. Just becomes another technique you can apply your principles and attiribute training to.

Interestingly, when I had a conversation with a very good BJJ person, he used words that reflected a nature about the art more than just a list of techniques. He talked about balance, coordination, timing, sensitivity, and relaxation. About flowing with the opponent. Of course he also mentioned about chin down, and open limbs etc. Not that I became an expert at his art at that moment, but within minutes I could gain some significant level of understanding of technique application.

We should be open to learning how to fall, experiencing grappling, experience kicking ranges and ground fighting. Those are not typically part of the Yip Man syllabus, but can always be a part of "your Kung Fu". Some have mentioned that they learn ground fighting in their formal Wing Chun training. The Wreslters and the BJJ people feel "at home" on the ground. In the same regard, most Wing Chun people train to feel "at home" standing up with the same purpose - being proficient at what they do best.

We can all argue whether ground fighting is a formal part of the system or not. The Wing Chun police are not going to arrest a Sifu for teaching ground fighting or developing some useful techniques for it using Wing Chun concepts. If you have the time, effort and the money and ground fighting is important to you, then train it! Personally, there is a wealth of Kung Fu to learn in the stand up arena of the Wing Chun system.

Good luck with your Kung Fu!

[Grabula]

tparkerkfo and lindley -

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying yeah or neah on whether wing chun is complete or not, just talking at the moment, learning.

Ok, tparker, I see what you are getting at and generally I understand what you are saying. Do you believe that those who practice wing chun should be blissfully ignorant of that particular range of fighting? Guns are not really applicable in my mind, the finger is faster then the mind as they say and there are some situations where fighting is less then useless. Heck, when it really comes down to it, the chances of being in a regular fight aren't much more then being knifed or shot anyway so why bother at all. However I understand where you are coming from in regards to how much is too much. Where do you draw the line? What goals are you trying to reach for? My question in this is whether wing chun is or isn't a "complete art" as one would call it.
I am not necessarily interested in covering every situation, and every situation has a varying degree of comonality often associated with your environment. For example, where I live and how I live, it is more likely I will see a fist fight then a knifing or a shooting. That is not to say it won't happen and that I may not want to prepare for it in some way, however I like to train more in those situations that may come up more often then the others. Going to the ground is certainly common, atleast in my experience. I would have to say atleast half the fights I have observed have or haven't gone to the ground. In my mind there is a good chance that you will go to the ground, even if you train not to.
Basically where do you draw the line? If you train to not go to the ground why not train for when you are on the ground? OF course wing chun is much better when you are not prone, but shouldn't a thorough art address all those ranges of combat? Why is it that the Wing Tsun guys, the Leung Ting/Boztepe people seem to be the only ones really taking this sort of training seriously?

Now don't get me wrong, we only have so much time, in day and in a lifetime so of course it is really up to the individual. My theory is more then anything else, fighting on the ground isn't as glamerous, isn't like hollywood or the old chinese kung fu flicks and so people have neglected it. Telling themselves the same things you say tparker, it won't happen to me, or it rarely happens anyway so why bother, or more commonly, I will train so it doesn't happen. I train so I don't get hit, but I don't think that means I will never get hit.

[OdderMensch]

And what book from the 60's? I though the first wing chun books were printed in the 70's except for maybe James Lee book. But I do not recall any ground stuff in that book.

Honestly, i havent checked he copywright dates, I went by the clothing choices in some of the pictures :) Its a book my sifu has, it shows WCK practicioners practiceing ground kicking and the same basic 'groundfighting position' that my sifu teachs us today.

. One, they are fighting a professional ground fighter that is EXTREMLY skilled at what he does. Most of us do not fight top notch NHB people on a regular basis. Second, is that both fighters are street fighters and go down becuase neither have any reall skill and they end up wrestlling around.

Agreed, you wrestle because you have agreed to wrestle, but wrestleing is taught heavily in my area at the high school and college levels, I had a next door neibor try to take me down for a while, and he could do so more often then I liked (course this was over a year ago, he wouldn't have as much luck today :D)

If you go down, say by a trip, there is a good chance that your gonna injur you head. If you get taken down, you probably will get slammed hard if the guy knows what he is doing.

I'd have to dissagree a bit. When I go down I rarely hit my head beacuse I have trained not to! I have some people I spare with, and only two of them (black belts with decades of experience) can take me down, but I alway 'fall" into my groungfighting srtucture and can continue the fight on my terms immediatly. (note these are skilled Kempo fighters, not grapplers, I know this, one of my Mantis brothers can take me down at will, and I usually have no idea i'm going down till I see the sky! :eek: )

So the last thing I wanted to do was go to the ground under any circumstances.
My sifu tells us if you are on the ground for more then 10 seconds, you're dead. by then someone has a weapon, or a friend.

I have never heard any one say that ground fighting was part of wing chun. I don't think it was lost, it just wasn't there. I find it odd that most Chinese Martial arts do not include ground fightin.

Ever heard the term "dei tong"? I may be misspelling it, but it means ground fighting. I belive, I am taught, I imagine (take your pick) that it has always been a part of kung fu, just like strikeing, kicking, joint locking, throwing and qigong have always been a part of kung fu.

I think there is a lot of good reasons that ground fighting has not been a major part of any martial art, becuase it is dangerous and not advantagous.

Take a look at fuikyen groung boxing, ground fighting and wrestleing are two vey different things.

Wing Chun without ground work takes years to practice and get good. Most people start as young adults. Many spend years perfecting the art. Any ground fighting will add that much longer.
Unless the groundfighting is already a strong part of the sytem and you merely need to see how to apply the kung you have devoloped in your stand up fighting to ground fighting situations. ;)

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Guys,

Great posts. First off, I do want to say that one can not afford to ignor ground fighting. But is wing chun the tool for the job? I have a SUV which is great for certain things. But I find out that they are not so great for cornering and can roll over. So, do I lower my SUV and put a porche suspention and tires on it?

Second, what do we do to wing chun to make it work on the ground? What current things work there and what do we need to add if we take this approach? Is this something that all wing chun should come up with or is this school specific? And who says that that person is knwledgeable at ground fighting to add it?

Grabula-I too am just learning. I am just giving my perspectives. I am not suggesting they are correct. Many on this list with much more experience in wing chun and ground fighting will out argue me any day of the week. LOL.

My point is that wing chun deals with ground fighting by not letting the situation get there in the first place. We don't wrestle around nor do we dance around. We have to get in and disrupt our opponent as quickly as we can by attacking his structure. The ground fighting is done proactivly. It is an approach to a fight. Think of it this way, what do you do if your opponent has you by the kneck with a knife and has you pulled off balanced? Oh yeah, he is intent on killing you! You can tell me a few different things you could do, but most would fail if the opponent does it correctly and is intent on hurting you. The point is you don't get into that position to start with.

OdderMensch-If you can, please let me know what book that would be. I am interested as I don't recall seeing a book like that. Yes wrestling is actually quite common in my area too. I will never get in a fight with some UFC tough guy, but my chances are greater that I will fight a HS wrestler. I know several, and I know they can eat me for lunch if I go to the ground, hence is why I don't go to the ground. Even if I trained there, they have far more experience than I. If I studied full time, I could gain the experience, but at the detrement to my wing chun skills.

What I would say about your not getting hurt is are your friends really trying to hurt you? Are you really wresttling on the cement? People talk about tripping in a fight. In this situation you go down by suprise. It is very easy to hit your head. If your prepared, then I agree you can prepare for it durring the fight. However, the guy is probably going to try to hurt you as he takes you down by throwing you and/or landing on top of you. There is a different level of intent from friends and enemies fighting. Of course this doesn't always apply. Look at the Emin and Cheung incident. This is a rather simple and not to violent situation that counters all my arguments.

And yes there are some arts that focus on groundfighting. But not many. And of those, most don't spend much time there. But yes there are some. You could add monkey style too. But they are not gonna wrestle with you on the floor.

Tom
________
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[Grabula]

To me I guess it is a balance of what ifs. What if I go to the ground? Reasonable what if, happens all the time. What if I fall and hit my head on the curb and knock myself out? could happen, chances are good it won't though.
There seems to be a sort of schism between grappling types and striking types and I don't like it. As the chinese arts often teach us, taking an extreme is often dangerous, most of the time the truth is in the middle.

[OdderMensch]

Oh yeah, he is intent on killing you! You can tell me a few different things you could do, but most would fail if the opponent does it correctly and is intent on hurting you.

Ok this was towards grabula but why is that any more true on the ground then it is in strikeing? If a good boxer wants to hit you and you step into his range you are gonna get hit. The question is will he hit you in the face, or in the bridge arm you were able to get up?

If a skilled grappler want to take me down, and I let him get anywhere near me, we're probably going down. The question is do I land flat on my back, or roll onto my side? Do I fall into a choke or arm bar, or does he get pulled into some elbows?

If someone is intent on hurting you, and you are not intent on hurting them, you are in serious trouble.

"When hands defend hands and feet defend feet, there are secret or unstopable moves"
In other words, nothing works everytime, and a thousand moves have a thousand counters. Be bold, but not greedy. Your defense is not impenaterable, by neither is thiers.

"the shape that attacks is the shape that defends"
And vice versa. It them with everything you've got all the time, and don't rely on your hands, kick them, elbow them shoulder butt them

"Soft and relaxed strength will put your opponent in jeopardy"
Grapplers win often because they have a plan, and they execute it calmly. If you panic and tense up, its all over no matter where in the fight you are. Again, don't play thier game. Much easier said than done (even in strikeing) But impossible if you have not trained what to do if it happens.

What I would say about your not getting hurt is are your friends really trying to hurt you? Are you really wresttling on the cement?

Hurt me, in a sparring match? never ;). (well, maybe once or twice, by accident) And no, we dont wrestle. Once we go to the ground, the action normally stops (but not always) And yes, several of them can take me to the ground, but that doesn't mean they are in any better position to hurt me then I am to hurt them.

People talk about tripping in a fight. In this situation you go down by suprise. It is very easy to hit your head. If your prepared, then I agree you can prepare for it durring the fight. However, the guy is probably going to try to hurt you as he takes you down by throwing you and/or landing on top of you.

It is very easy to hit your head as you fall, I did it all the time when I started practiceing, now it happens less and less and so far (sound of knocking on wood) never in a sparing match that wasn't with my mantis brothers.

As I said earlier in the thread, one of the reasons I love WC is that its responses are far better that me "natural" responses! I know for a fact that when I fall down, naturaly, I try and catch myself, flail my arms around and throw my head back!

Now when i fall I curl up and pull myself down, keeping my head up and tucked (but not overly so) to my chest, why? Cause thats what SLT has taught me to do.

. Of course this doesn't always apply. Look at -snip-. This is a rather simple and not to violent situation that counters all my arguments.

Ugh, no thanks :p I'll pass any counters to arguements that bringing that thing up might provide. :rolleyes:

Look at the opening movement of SLT. As I am taught, you want to feel "suspended" from a point on the top back of your head. you then bend your knees while keeping this suspened feelling, allowing your back to straighten. At the same time your hands come up so that your forearms are paralel to the ground, keeping your shoulders sunk and relaxed. Your toes come out to a 45, your heels come out about 90 and you tuck your pelvis up and forward. your stucture should feel relaxed, and as if you were gripping the ground. Does this sound correct?

Edited to say Doh! This was meant to be a quick reply about the "Book from the 60's" You were right, it was from the 80's Chow and Weakland series Bui Jee book. But the so called "grappler faze" has only been around since the Gracies really came out in the 90's and MMA's not till later then that, but here they are, practiceing basic ground kicking in the early 80's, and I asume they learned it from someone in the 60's or 70's at least. In other words, th idea of fighting with WC on the ground is nothing new, even if the aproch we use for traing might be.

In other, other words, we were Di tong, when Di tong wasn't cool :cool:

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo


OdderMensch-If you can, please let me know what book that would be. I am interested as I don't recall seeing a book like that.


I can't remember exactly which one, but it's one of the Chao and Weakland books. I'll dig through them.

[yuanfen]

Most folks are talking about the re-issue of the Chao and Weakland book. I have the earlier first edition and I corresponded briefly with the co- author. I dont have my copy handy but it came out in the 70s.The manuscript sat at the publishers for a long time and the authors were not initially happy with the production and marketing. Chao does have some groundwork in there- and at one point hints on an application of biu jee.

In our school we practiced groundwork drills in the 70s without hearing anything about the Gracies.

[Grendel]

Hi Phenix,

Great post. :)

Originally posted by Phenix

A note from a useless mad man

Who that be? No one mentioned him. :p


The older I get the more I belive in the way such as the O sensei of Aikido. Force, Technics, Special type of conditioning for Jing.... are great but ultimately it can't replace for the sense of knowing the Natural of oneself. It makes a heaven and earth different on whether one response with Yee naturally or not....

The older I am the more convince I am that natural is the key to everything because I cannot predict what you are going to use against me. But, I know, if I stick with natural I am to a great degree protected by natural. if I want to play I don't activate Yee so one can have fun to be push around. If Yee to penetrate is used then it is not play. But, World is more then win or lost. World is more then making enermy because I am always has to be right and better then you.

I think what we have are two distinct human and antithetical needs in Wing Chun and they are revealed in how we individuals see the world and see ourselves. Some are so much a part of the world of what if that they are constantly afraid that there is some "secret" that they do not share that they might fall prey to; others are so a part of the natural world that many such concerns do not exist for them, allowing these few to just live and play in their lives in an unfettered mental state. Few would argue that Wing Chun is not an effective martial art, but how much of the martial focus makes us better people? Doesn't the art focus do more for us as individuals?


Body can lost the link but Yee used naturally will always connect.. weakness is strength when only when one is with natural.

It is not about power it is about grace.
It is not about anger it is about peace.
It is not about win or lost it is about compassionate and not hurting.
Who is number one? We have different faces. Who is most pretty or handsome? We all grow old.

Ah, the old comparison problems. As for growing old, not me, :) but I agree with the rest, especially having seen your own interpretations of the art. If one desparately covets the power, they will miss the gentleness which is the true essence of the art and leads to a higher level of achievement. If one gives up one's selfish hunger for power, it may be possible to find true strength from inside.


What is spring? that is compassionate.
When all is over only compassionate stay.

Leo DiCaprio on the prow of the Titantic is forever. :D Don't be greedy; don't be afraid.

Regards,