Combat Ranges

[taltos]

Let's give this a go.

Without personal attacks, without insults, and without burning the house down...

What is YOUR PERSONAL understanding of how you teach or are taught to recognize and deal with the various ranges of combat. For example, the distance at which I can execute a waang gerk is not the same distance at which I can execute a wuh sau. And the distance at which the other guy would punch me in the face is not the same distance at which he would execute a spinning roundhouse kick to my head.

What tools have you used to develop the pre-contact distance awareness, and what methods do you use to recognize when you have moved from one range into another?

Thanks in advance for keeping this on the high road.

-Levi

[reneritchie]

Hi Levi,

Excellent thread. I did sport karate and a lot of point sparring before WCK so I had a better sense of what a kick/punch fighter could do to me than what a closerange WCK fighter could do. So I guess I had a "danger zone" pre-estabished before I even began WCK.

In general, however, I try to stay away from "technical" concerns like how far a side kick can reach vs. a front kick vs. a jab. Since I'm not precognitive, and a skilled fight can not only avoid telegraphing, but false telegraph, I keep the idea that the moment they come into a range that they can strike with minimal (in terms of time) body displacement, I consider them a threat.

The way I learned, we don't typically assume a classic Jong Sao, just a relaxed Bai Jong that doesn't betray any martial knowledge. However, from there, any of our limbs are ready to Dap (join). We seldom initiate unless the person becomes a threat, and then let their actions determine our response, which will typically cleave the center or flank depending on how they tell us best to defeat them.

If the other person's posture, etc. gives me the idea they're a real threat, I'll use covering/shielding motions like double gaun, poon tan bong, lan gerk, etc. while moving to make sure some tricky strike doesn't catch me underestimating.

Before any of that, its pure eye-judgement. How they stand, the rotation of their body, their weighting, the way they're looking back, etc. Then the "fuzzy logic" process kicks in, and the bridges adjust/track en-route towards the best position, giving, IMHO, the best risk/reward ratio for what can be a very dangerous few instants.

(To develop all this, we train with partners in San Sao, going from simple, predictable, single movement response drills to more complex, unpredicitable, combination drills including a variety of strikes, kicks, takedowns, etc.)

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Levi,

I have been thinking about this lately a bit. I don't think I have been exposed to a set of rules that define ranges. In life we don't gauge the keys sitting on the table and plan how to pick them up. We reach for them. If they are further away, we stop. If they are closer, we don't reac out as far.

But we probably need to understand that wing chun arms are based on structure so we probably need to be aware of the distance they are effective. Bong sau isn't as good right in front of the chest nor is it effective fully extended.

I think some people look at a fighter at a distinct range. He is close or he is far away. But I don't think it is that simple. Take a choy li Fut guy for example. He may be closer with his front hand, but his rear hand is VERY dangerous and is much further away. This is just the way Choy Li Fut is. Your opponent is in multiple ranges. If we are range specific, then we have to sort all this out.

I think in most cases ranges are just learned and no specific emphasis needs to be placed on it. The bag work, Dummy work, and chi sau all helps us realize where we are effective. If they are outside the range, they are not a threat, if they are inside then we need to deal with them. Some arts can fight from a ****her distance.

Tom
________
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[yenhoi]

I like tparkerkfo's description of fighting range.

I am either in contact or not in contact with my opponent(s). With or without weapon(s).

Threat assessment (being aware of your environment and the people in it) is like 90% of fighting. When you walk into a room and see 5 people, how they are standing (weight), whos legs and arms are crossed, positioning yourself at angles to peoples centerline or staying on the outside of potential "bad guys" elbows even if they are across the room, being aware of just how much work or distance or time there is involved before someone can physically hit or touch you - so very important.

:eek:

[Train]

Hi everyone,

Very good posts from everyone.

I think knowing your own range is the most important becuase when you are attacked, your opponent throws a punch or kick at 3 areas (head, body, legs). If you know what you can do to protect those areas, it does not matter if a person throws you a jab, a back fist, a side kick, a round house kick ect... if you know how to protect your space, you will know your range.

[wingchunalex]

we learn to deal with long distance range from sparring and sparring different styles. in this range there are just spair techniques thrown, single techniques. just trying to shoot for a opening or where somethone's hands aren't held (ie- if they keep their hands high shoot a side kick in their). feinting can be used most effectively at this range.

We learn to deal with middle range with sparring and chi sau. this range is where combination attacks work best. some trapping and sticking can be done but only a minimum.

We learn to deal with short range with chi sau mostly and sparring still. this is where trapping can be applied best. sticking is also heavily used here. this is the range that you can't let a grappler get beyond, sticking occupies their hands well to pull off strikes. (went to wrestling with friend, really hard for people to begin moves on me)

We train grappleing range by practicing defening against it in sparring and also in san shou enviroment. we also drill defences to shooting and grabbing such as sprawling and elbows and other anti-grappleing techniques.

[azwingchun]

I think knowing your own range is fine, but you must know your opponents range very well also. Everyone that you come against is going to be able to strike you at varying distances. Think about fighting a person who is 5'5 opposed to fighting a person who is 6'7. They each will have a different striking range due to their size.

Not only should you know yours and their striking range, but you should also be very comfortable knowing the non-striking ranges as well. These also vary by your opponents size. ;)

[yuanfen]

good points John

[azwingchun]

Thanks Joy. ;)

[Train]

Very true John :) thanks for your info.
I think I did'nt give enough Info on my part when I posted. I'm not saying that not knowing your opponents range is not important. I think noticing everything in your surroundings is very important, that's including striking range and non-striking range. But if you understand your own space, it's easier confront your opponent. For example, how long is an arm or a leg of a person that's 6'6". How do you actually know?? so what can you do?? All you can do is to protact your own space and feel your opponent out. That's all i'm sayin. I agree with ya totally though John

[dragon lady]

I have found that it is helpful to look at the ranges of combat when training. All tools have jobs to which they are best suited. You can't grapple from long kicking range.

Looking at an engagement in terms of the four ranges of long range kicking, short range kicking/long range hands, short kicks/short range hands, and grappling allows you to gather valuable information about your opponent. It also tells you which tools are available for you (as well as your opponent) to use.

With this said, I train by having opponents of different sizes and from different martial backgrounds engage me at all four ranges of combat. John mentioned that people of varying heights have different reaches, and this is precisely why it is important to practice with your brothers and sisters - to get a feel for all builds.

In addition to learning what is possible to execute at each range, this form of training allows you to see and feel how much energy and time it takes to build a bridge at each range.

Crystal

[canglong]

"If we are range specific, then we have to sort all this out." Tom

Hi Tom, I agree though the point of this thread I believe is that you can either sort it out in your kwoon or in combat which by then might be too late. You can actually pratice for and train to "sort all this out" so that it becomes part of your natural intelligence gathering process and not a burden. As train states you can 1. know the range of your own space and 2. know the range of your opponent considering they vary depending on their stance which might be a 3 gate stance (boxer/street) 2 gate stance (grappler), or another WC person in a 6 gate stance all of which will put different weapons in different ranges of your space and knowing this in advance is advantagous to you in any situation.

[captain]

the wck i experieneced was super close.and that famous
vertical punch,as nowhere in the guy's arrsenal.it was
palms.i wouldnt have dared try a grab and sweep at
first.but i watched the class carefully,and tried out that
bong move,which stopped a palm strike.but all of this
happened about 12inches and less.

[azwingchun]

You are correct, you must train with people of varying heights and even weights. This allows you to start builing the skills needed to judge the safest and most correct distances to fight at any given moment in time.

As a Wing Chun practitoner this makes sense not only for knowing what range you should be in against an incoming attack, but also for what range you need to be in for maximum power to be delivered. Being even a couple of inches in to close or to far out can result in loss of power at the end of your attack.

As a Wing Chun practitoner we try never to extend our limbs completely (locked out). So, we gauge ourselves by the maximum distance say for a punch, is the natural bend of the arm when hanging naturally. The same goes for the legs.

Though, this doesn't apply to your attacker, since they don't follow these rules. They may/will overextend themselves when punching or kicking. So the rules change slightly against a non-Wing Chun trained fighter. This is part of the reason you should train against various types of kicks and punches, other than against just Wing Chun people.

;)

[tparkerkfo]

Hi,

I don't beleive we need to specifically sort out the ranges. I think it just happens. We see in 3 demensions. Our whole life is based on judging distance. We do it all the time. I drive every day, but I do not put the cars into a specific catagory depending on their distance away from me. I understand when they are too close or I have some comfort room.

Of course I am not saying ranges are note helpful. But I think they can be a danger. Some fast people can change ranges faster than you can blink. If you have discrete ranges, then you might get into trouble by fighting a certain way based on the range, if you opponent can which ranges quickly and smoothly. Some people can blur ranges.

I think it is better to just learn to gauge the distance, which is not too hard. You lick up objects all the time. What happens when a bug is buzzing around your face? You just react.

Tom
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[canglong]

Hi Tom,

"I don't beleive we need to specifically sort out the ranges. I think it just happens." Tom

The question is then what if your thinking is incorrect or better stated as what if things don't just happen or maybe they do for you and not someone else.

"I think it is better to just learn to gauge the distance, which is not too hard." Tom

Agreed, I was just pointing out anything worth doing is better off done correctly. If you determined that gauging distance is worth learning then we need to know what it is we are learning such as which weapons can be deployed at different ranges relative to your position and that of your opponent and there stance which I pointed out in my last post. The only way to out duel someone faster stronger quicker than yourself is to be armed with knowledge.