A few Xing Yi questions from a CMA newbie...

[CrippledAvenger]

Okay, like some of you know my primary background is in western boxing, but I'm thinking of learning Xing Yi. So, hopefully, you internal types will humor my questions, as innane as they might be... :)

Anyhow, I've seen a few clips on the web and I've heard much about how direct the style is, but I'm a bit unclear as to Xing Yi's general approach to fighting. It's supposed to be powerful, but all the clips I've seen seem to focus on one technique as opposed to a continuous flow. Is there anything like combos (in the western boxing sense) within the art, and if so, is this a direct result from the style's philosophy or from your individual teacher?

Secondly, I'm wondering how much footwork is emphasized, especially in light of all the standing that I hear its praticioners talk about. Is this a mobile style, or is it more of a "steamroller" approach?

Finally, I'm seriously wondering how much my boxing training will hamper me in learning Xing Yi. I'm not entirely comfortable with giving it up entirely (i.e. unlearning) but I'm also quite willing to separate the two. Will this be an insurmountable problem or what?

Sorry about the lengthy posts, but these are burning questions, so to speak. :D

[Water Dragon]

Eagerly waiting for responces from Monkeyslap (if he sees this), Drake, and Felipe Bido. And Crumble too.

[Felipe Bido]

A quick response. Maybe later I'll have the time to write more.

Xingyi has combos. In fact, when a Xingyi guy pounds you, it feels like the punches are raining on you from everywhere. Apart from that, his legs are between yours, to make you lose your balance. A pretty difficult situation.

The techniques shown in a form looks like focusing on a single technique, because the Xingyi forms are power drills and training of principles, not a recollection of techniques. You train to deliver a huge amount of power in each strike.

Some people I've talked to, compare the attack of a Xingyi guy to a crazed berserker. Maybe like a tasmanian devil running towards you :p

I'll post more when I have more time.-

[CrippledAvenger]

Thanks for the quick response, Felipe Bido. A tasmanian devil, eh? This is sounding more and more like my kinda thing.

Now I'm getting really curious about what Xing Yi looks like in practice. I guess it's fair to say that there's not much footage of Xing Yi in action out there, right?

[Felipe Bido]

Oh, let me add that Xingyi trains with the mindset to end the fight with one strike. That is why the forms emphasize an all-out strike everytime you hit.

Some forms have quick changes of steps, so you can learn how to react to the opponent's reactions.

You can see some two man drills on This site (http://www.hsing-i.com) and on Emptyflower (http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan) . But remember, the two man drills don't look exactly like Xingyi fighting.

[swmngdragn]

For what it worth.......

Any simple training(s) that have been acquired in Western boxing can, and are translated into Hsing-I. Think of Western Boxing as the kindergarden level, and Hsing-I as the college level of fighting arts. I'll let you know this, C.A. You'll have an initial advantage as a former boxer, regardless of your level, over most of the folk training in most schools. It's the sheer practicality, and simplicity of Western boxing that make it fit well with Hsing-I in general. The drawback of Western Boxing is that it's *sport*, and *not* combat. Western boxing's footwork leaves quite a bit to be desired, as well. Plus there is too much emphasis put on the "good ol' toe to toe, and banging it out". Rather than the simple effectiveness of truly coordinated unison of the upper/middle/lower body. In other words, "Whole Body Power". As opposed to hitting with a 15 lb. arm you'll learn how to integrate 175 lbs. of weight+gravity+speed+timing+angle+strategy+conserv ation of energy to equal, and add to the power in your strikes.

You'll like my teacher, but to earn his attention you'll have to prove that you can be not only tough, but intelligent enough to ask what you need to ask, and *listen* to what's being implied.

[CD Lee]

One thing that is really different from Western Boxing and Xingyi is the dynamics and physics of how the punch is delivered and powered.

It is incredibly difficult to explain on a forum. But in general the Boxing punch like a hook or cross is thrown more with the arm and shoulder. What I mean is that the punch rotates around your body picking up momentum and is delivered almost like a rock being slung on a rope at high speed. Done well, in boxing, your body is turning like a whip to generate the maximum velocity and power with a peaking point (strike zone) at your target. This can be enough to knock somebody out.

Also, the boxer, when delivering the punch, almost always has planted and stopped his body while delivering the punch, so that the punch lands as the boxer is planted in place. He may have been moving forward to start the punch, but shift the weight forward and planted at impact.

Xinyi deliveres the punch with less outside swinging or slinging of the arm, and more connection to the body, while stepping into the target, literally on the move, back leg driving the punch. The power comes from alignment, stepping, sinking, turning, expansion, all at the same time. The visual to me at least, is that the Xinyi guy looks like he is not punching so much, but more of him ramming his fist into you like a hunk of tree branch attached to a moving device.

Unlike boxing, you don't back up and just keep slugging, but after closing, you can do things that are completely illegal in boxing. That is the beauty of it to me. If he misses a straight cross as you step in to close while blocking(deflecting), you can wrap up the arm on the way in(like a snake) and drive an elbow into his face, with the same inner working as a stike to the face. Or just block the blow and blow him off his center into a wall. It is all powerful no matter what the technique because it is powered in a similar fashion.

[CrippledAvenger]

Wow, thanks guys. This is really helping me get an idea of what this whole Xing Yi thing entails. (I always like to do SOME research before plunging into things...)

Drake-- do you think your teacher will mind if I drop by tomorrow or should I call ahead? I'm not sure on the etiquette for this sort of thing. Is the schedule online correct too, btw?

CD Lee-- So the picture I'm getting of Xing Yi's power generation is like a more refined Jack Dempsey? Just to frame it in something I'm familiar with, of course.

This is incredibly interesting. Thanks all for the help thus far.

[crumble]

You're getting some really great info here! CD Lee described the difference is punching really well. In boxing you have sort of a stance and you swing your hips, waist, and shoulder to hit - like chopping with an axe almost. And it definately works! Power is delivered. Hsing I uses almost no arm movement. The power comes from the mass of the body moving, the waist turning, the spine unbowing, and really the arm doesn't move much at all. I've found it very hard not to over-extend my hsing i punches. I punched more like a boxer before starting hsing i.

I think it would be very hard to keep training boxing while learning Hsing I. It would probably be better to learn something like Lama-style, which will give you all the things that would be "cheating" in boxing and it uses a similar power delivery.

-crumble

[swmngdragn]

Hi, gents........

C.A., as far as I know the schedule is correct. So you'll have until tomorrow night. :) Choi sifu loves prospective students, and welcomes the contact. He'll do his very best to answer your questions. He's a great guy. Provided you don't challenge him. :)

As to Lama being "similar" to Hsing-I. Not even close. Only Choi sifu's Lama is powered in a similar fashion as an internal art. The similarities end when someone else performs Lama. Any TCMA will give you "cheats" when opposing a boxer. What gives everyone fits is how to counter a jab/cross/hook comination.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by swmngdragn
Hi, gents........

C.A., as far as I know the schedule is correct. So you'll have until tomorrow night. :) Choi sifu loves prospective students, and welcomes the contact. He'll do his very best to answer your questions. He's a great guy. Provided you don't challenge him. :)

Excellent. I'll pop down and take a look-see tonight, then. Master Choi's right off the Brown Line in Irving Park, no? And as for challenging... I think I'll pass ;) I've heard the man is not only a hell of a nice guy, but a bad-ass to boot. Gotta respect that.


As to Lama being "similar" to Hsing-I. Not even close. Only Choi sifu's Lama is powered in a similar fashion as an internal art. The similarities end when someone else performs Lama. Any TCMA will give you "cheats" when opposing a boxer. What gives everyone fits is how to counter a jab/cross/hook comination.

Interesting. Maybe if I get out of class early enough today I'll go check out the Lama class as well.

Either way, I look forward to catching the Xing Yi class tonight. Thanks for all the advice and help guys. I'll post my reactions tomorrow.

[crumble]

Originally posted by swmngdragn
As to Lama being "similar" to Hsing-I. Not even close.

I meant similar to boxing. It was confusing the way I wrote it. Sorry about that.

-c

[CD Lee]

What gives everyone fits is how to counter a jab/cross/hook comination.


No doubt about it. That is a true statement. However, there is one thing you should never do with a real boxer regarding the above. This goes for boxers too. Don't, don't, don't ever stand in their delivery range. You will get nailed by something eventually.

Since it is not a boxing match, stand just out of range. When his shoulder moves (don't watch the fist or ---BAM! opps too late), you move.

I think a huge mistake any art could make is to hope to be in a boxers striking range, and hope to see the punches well, and counter them right there at that range. These guys are not bar room brawlers.

I think it is difficult too, to think of boxing dynamics, while trying to learn Xingyi power delivery. The striking point seems odd, the back leg weighted stances seem odd, the arms don't work the same, so the fists don't do the same things either. The temptation is to try to get power from the arms in a Xingyi strike. It is extreemly difficult and takes time and good teacher to get this out of a person.

At first I thought this could not work, until my Sifu obliged me and took a step with a short Xingyi strike into my chest one day ( I specifically asked for a demo on me). His arm hardly moved, but it felt like a twoXfour skewered me and then launched me at the same instant. I launched into the air. That showed me a lot.

So, to me, personally coming from boxing, the five fists are not really punches like I think of a punch. They are manifestations of energy using a fist.

[CrippledAvenger]

What an interesting night.

First off, I was very impressed by Master Choi's teaching style and fluidity. Now, granted he wasn't as insanely fast as some young boxers I've seen, but there's no question that his timing and power were exceptional and his speed (if not as fast as it probably was when he was younger) was still better than mine.

I'm actually glad that I went on the day that his students spend working kicks and distance techniques, seeing as that's what I'm most interested in-- applications. Anyhow, there was this weird sense of deja vu about the techniques and movements-- like I'd seen them before, sorta, but they were being done better and more effectively in this style. I can't really explain it.

Let's just say I was throughly impressed. Now the only thing left for me to do is to free up some cash... :(

[swmngdragn]

Howdy, C.A.. :)

>First off, I was very impressed by Master Choi's teaching style and fluidity. Now, granted he wasn't as insanely fast as some young boxers I've seen, but there's no question that his timing and power were exceptional and his speed (if not as fast as it probably was when he was younger) was still better than mine.<

There's speed, and then there's speed, C.A. Timing is more important than speed. Especially as you grow older. Choi sifu can "catch" one of your punches, regardless of how "fast" you may be, and make it seem like he punched you. :D

>I'm actually glad that I went on the day that his students spend working kicks and distance techniques, seeing as that's what I'm most interested in-- applications. Anyhow, there was this weird sense of deja vu about the techniques and movements-- like I'd seen them before, sorta, but they were being done better and more effectively in this style. I can't really explain it.<

I suppose it depends on who you were watching in the class. Some are better than others. What you're seeing is the varying degrees of correct mechanics being put to use. Coordination.

>Let's just say I was throughly impressed. Now the only thing left for me to do is to free up some cash...<

Choi sifu isn't cheap, but he's by far the best teacher you can spend your money on.

Good luck.

[Brad]

How much does he charge for private lessons(if he offers them)?

[swmngdragn]

Hi, Brad.

>How much does he charge for private lessons(if he offers them)?<

Yes. Master Choi does offer them. What he would charge you is between you, and him, however. Just contact him, and ask. He's a great guy, and is very open about what you can expect in return for your hard earned cash. :)