Flanking Q

[reneritchie]

This is mainly for Pien San, TWC, etc. people who prefer taking the flank. When/if you spar (against skilled opponents), how often are you successfully able to take the flank?

I've had some strange experiences lately with this, especially with un-trained (brawler) types and wrestlers, because they do a lot of things trained fighters wouldn't do, especially hold their arms in strange, wide-open manners that make it pretty easy to just pound down the center, but more difficult (IMHO) to flank them. Wrestlers especially were also good at keeping front facing alignment, I guess because of the needs of their sport.

[Grabula]

reneritchie, what is your point for asking? Don't take that wrong, what I mean is, if it's easy to take them down the middle would you bother flanking them?
Anyway, don't take me the wrong way, just asking from curiosity is all.

[yuanfen]

Rene- a non side body or TWC wing chun person shouldnt allow a person to flank them either.

Similarly, coordinated wc body control is properly understood
one can outflank many wrestlers. Wrestlers can outflank other wrestlers- they do it often by controlling the hands and getting around.

[reneritchie]

Grabula,

In real application, I would take whatever's given to me, of course, but pure "mind candy" makes me want to try things in sparring environments, to get a sense of what I can do. Since Pien San and TWC prefer the side, I assume they work very hard at getting it, even against opponents who are harder to get it from. In a perfect world, I could take front, side, or back whenever I want 8)

Joy,

Yeah, that wasn't really what I was asking about. Sorry I didn't phrase it better.

I think wrestler on wrestler is easier since they don't have to worry about being punched as they try to equalize body rotation (not that a good wrestler doesn't sneak in all sorts of high impact cross faces and shoulder butts and the like...).

[taltos]

Rene,

We utilize flanking theory in my kwoon, so I can understand where you're coming from.

To help with this issue, we train the Bai Jong of combat heavily. During pre-contact, keeping track of your opponents weapons helps trememdously. If they are covering their center, we line up on the center (with our hands and body). If their elbows are out a little, we line up on their elbow (with our hands and body). If their elbows are out a lot, we line up on their shoulder (with our hands and body). All the while, we try to keep one foot just outside our opponents foot. That way, the foot is always flanked (by this i mean if they want to go for the flank on that side, they have much further to travel). If they come in with their elbow down, they are flanked upstairs and downstairs. With the elbow out a little, I'm already aligned to the structural weakness. Same for the elbow out a lot. I never align any further than my opponents own body, but I stay close to the weakness or close to the center if there is no weakness.

By doing this, I have the flank if it's available, but I have the path down center if it's available instead. I don't force anything to happen or decide to take the flank if it's not appropriate. In essence, I use my opponents alignment to dictate the most strategically sound set up I could have, and the only immidiately available option to them is to attack such that I have them flanked or I am aligned to their weakness. If they decide to do anything else, they have to reconfigure (in essence, they have to give me time, space, or most often both in order to do anything else).

That's the best I can explain quickly. I hope it's clear.

-Levi

[reneritchie]

Levi,

Thanks for the excellent and detailed response. Do you continually adjust to maintain this relative position if the opponent circles around or zigzags?

I agree with taking the center if its the best option. I was just wondering if anyone worked out ways of getting the side even if it was more difficult, or if the opponent did things differently than a trained fighter would (unpredictable behavior can be a danger all its own).

I remember when I did Bagua, which loves the flank and loves the back even more) there was a lot of focus on always going around the opponent, but the methods of doing so (often involving touching inside then spinning down and under the arm) seem *very* risky in real application to me. Likewise, when dealing with wide arms, touching the inside and transitioning to the flank seems to take long enough that they can either realign straight or just attack with the other hand.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey RR,


Good post.


It doesn't need to be way off on the side to be considered flank. If you stand post to post in front of each other and then move your post just a pinch of the line of the opponents post with some body angling that can be the base of side body flanking. In our art its not just the side facing that makes us Pin Sun. Its the body positioning and the angling. We hardly ever square face the opponent other than when we are driving up the center.

Getting the side is not easy against most because most do not attack directly down the line with proper skills if that is a way to put it. I find that most people walk the bow and not the string when coming in. When sparing with boxers and other straighter line artist I tend to get more side positioning but when working on thugs and odd stuff I end up in the middle. Like I said; Side may not be too far off the middle but its just enough.

Now! There is the last situation. The big ass haymaker from hell. I find most that throw this end up over throwing their balance and find myself getting a heavier side or even back type of position. With this a quick side step and press in ends up being kind of typical.

Once attached in any of these situation I end up following up and sometimes I can go zig zag, straight in or????

I have to run!


Regards,

[Ultimatewingchun]

RENE;

Good questions to open this thread...Against a grappler type who stands in kind a neutral stance position (and is well adept in not getting out-flanked)...in TWC we may have to drop any attempt to come in, let's say with our right foot attempting to get outside his left foot - a typical attempt at out-flanking to the blindside...

and instead come in with a crossleg attack and... BEGIN... the exchange in the typical "modified", charge-straight-ahead striking
strategy... although somewhat cautiously.

We might get to his blindside with a parallel stepping maneuver
after this initial move (depending on his response); or, perhaps just stay right where we are and straight blast him...or...

As per the discussion on the Grappler Troubles thread -

we may have to go into some grappling/TWC mode (perhaps on the ground, from my personal perspective)...again, depending upon his response to our opening attack.

In other words...we take what we can get...wherever the OPENINGS ARE that he may provide for us - and not try to "force" the issue in an attempt to gain a particular advantage
where, in fact, THERE IS NO OPENINGTO BE HAD.

[Grabula]

reneritchie, thanks for your response, I figured it was just, as you say, mind candy :) It's a good question, and as much as I knew there were some out there who prefered the side to the center I didn't realize that some strove extra hard to get there, atleast in practice.
Some interesting answers so far as well.

[wingchunalex]

from what I can make of your description I would flank by doing retreating step (ie- right leg in front, then move it to the back so left leg is in front) when they move forward.

or I would use inside facing step with a lon sau type redirection. (inside facting step- a turning stance position (choh ma) step out to the side then shift/tourque/turn (whatever you want to call it) so then you are facing their flank.

for flanking on the attack i would have to set up to flank. I would need to open then up and force a reaction from them to use against them. I would need to do something like open with a lead punch or feint then depending on their reaction choose which side to flank from probably using inside facing or a advancing step (moving the rear leg to the front) out to the side.

[taltos]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Do you continually adjust to maintain this relative position if the opponent circles around or zigzags?

Only if the opponent is still beyond my Biu Jong (which we call the "Go Point"). As soon as the opponent crosses the Go Point, whatever configuration they are in is what I go for.

If they are still beyond that range and they are dancing around, shuffling their feet, etc., I'll continue to make minute adjustments. At that distance, my adjustemts are minor compared to theirs (since the "angle" originates from me, I move very little to realign to something at a greater distance). Rotating my facing an inch moves my outer hand 4-5, so I move, but not extensively.

-Levi

[InfiniteApogee]

Hi all
I'm a just a lurker here and you don't know me so this probably doesn't matter much, but I just had to give a thumbs up to taltos, who I'm sure is hfy guy from his posts. The flanking you described listed some specific details and not just the usuall "you have to experience it to understand". I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything. It's nice to see something like that for a change. I hope it continues.

Thanks, back to lurking :-)
Clark

[taltos]

InfiniteApogee,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm always open to pleasant discussion, and always willing to share my take on things.

-Levi

[Phil Redmond]

Flanking Q
This is mainly for Pien San, TWC, etc. people who prefer taking the flank. When/if you spar (against skilled opponents), how often are you successfully able to take the flank?

A person can be flanked from the inside also. It's fairly easy to flank if you work on it constantly.
Phil