OT: Uneducated idiots crying foul!

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.



Now this is something that really makes me upset.

Swastika Robot (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/30/offbeat.coke.swastika.ap/index.html)

Those idiots can't tell the diff. between a Nazi Swastika and a "Ura-Manji".

Here are 3 links that explain the diff:

The Manji (http://members.tripod.co.jp/japanpage/themanji.htm)

Omote & Ura Manji (http://www.southbay-shorinjikempo.org/manji.html)

Symbols (http://oba.users3.50megs.com/ec/symbols.html)
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If they fight for or against something they should atleast be able to tell the difference between 2 different symbols and their history and background.

[chen zhen]

they should at least know what they're talking about, before they start whining.

But you should say that to the nazi's, it's all their fault it can't be used without being associated with them. **** 'em!!:mad:

[Richie]

I agree that they are mistaken, but calling them "uneducated" is a little strong. Don't you think?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Richie
I agree that they are mistaken, but calling them "uneducated" is a little strong. Don't you think?

Not when the complainant is a resident of Hong Kong where buddhism and buddhist symbols are common.

Seeya.

[GreyMystik]

the "swastika" symbol was around LONG before hitler perverted it for his own use. it is sad that the symbol is persecuted even now to this day. this would be akin to some fundamentalist complaining that the cross represented the wholesale slaughter of many islamic and middle easterners during the "crusades" so it should be taken off the market. completely ignorant in my opinion.

[CrippledAvenger]

but to deny that there's strong associations tied to the swastika, (for better or for worse) because of the nazis is a little misguided as well, I think.

yes, I know they're traditional symbols in a lot of eastern religions, yes I know that Hitler stole them, but then again, they're also associated with the systematic slaughter of millions of human lives.

whenever you have two competing associations like that tied into a single symbol or object there's bound to be trouble.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by GreyMystik
the "swastika" symbol was around LONG before hitler perverted it for his own use. it is sad that the symbol is persecuted even now to this day. this would be akin to some fundamentalist complaining that the cross represented the wholesale slaughter of many islamic and middle easterners during the "crusades" so it should be taken off the market. completely ignorant in my opinion.

actually, I agree. nothing with a religious symbol should be used by a purely secular company. We're better off keeping religious symbols with religious things, especially because of many varied associations that they carry.

I think you'd see the same amount of uproar depending on the religious symbol on the product and the area that it's been shipped to. Would you put a Star of David on a coke can and send it to Iran? How about a cross on products destined for Pakistan?

[norther practitioner]

Would you put a Star of David on a coke can and send it to Iran? How about a cross on products destined for Pakistan?

Yeah, but they didn't put a swastika on a coke can and send it to Israel. :D

Obviously its a symbol with a whole lot of meaning to a whole lot of people. It was once a sign of Christ...until the christians found out that Buddhists were using it in a sign for buddha.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


Yeah, but they didn't put a swastika on a coke can and send it to Israel. :D

Obviously its a symbol with a whole lot of meaning to a whole lot of people. It was once a sign of Christ...until the christians found out that Buddhists were using it in a sign for buddha.

Right, and people from the Indian subcontinent used it as a symbol for the sun before the buddhists. My point is that such symbols shouldn't be used frivolously because of the enormous amount of weight such connotations hold. Furthermore, in the age of information, it doesn't even matter to some degree where you're sending them as the global community is so much more connected than ever before.

Just some fuel for the fire...

[cho]

fact is, you can't say it's the same symbol. the Nazi's swastika arms protrude to the right, Wan protrudes to the left.

people, being ignorant, uneducated, and niggard :)

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, the symbol on that robot is definitely a nazi style swatzika, with the arms turning clockwise and balanced on a corner.

Not the same at all as when the symbol sits on a side and the arms turn counterclockwise.

It was probably an honest mistake, but still, since the toys are also being sold in London (according to a different article), it's nothing but trouble waiting to happen. Or it was, until trouble happened.

[Vapour]

Robowaru is a villan robot so nothing wrong with him having swastika.

[norther practitioner]

Agree with chang style novice...

except, the symbol does mean something else going clockwise on its side....


There are three variations that I know of....
the nazi (on corners)
the counter clock (on side)
and the clockwise (on side)

and I'm sure there are more....

[Shaolin-Do]

Does he come with a moustache too?

hehehe
Yes, people are stupid. the arms go different ways on the symbols, making them NOT THE SAME SYMBOL.
When you turn the curve of a smiley face the opposite way, does it still mean happy? No. It means f*cking sad. If you turn the arms on the swastika the opposite way, same f*cking concept. They are different signs, symbols what have you, and people *****ing about it is just some whiny f*ck who doesnt even know what the nazi sign is, otherwise there wouldnt be this misconception. Furthermore, if they feel sooo torchered by this symbol, shouldnt they at least know what the f*ck it really looks like?
...
Blah.
Dont get me wrong, I hate nazi's. but I also hate whiney pieces of sh!t who ***** relentlessly about everything and nothing,

[Laughing Cow]

Robowaru is a "villain" in a Japanese Children's story, Robocon is the hero.

The show is live action and aimed at the pre-school market, plus it is a fairly old series by now.
In Asia most buddhist temples will use both clockwise and counter-clockwise manji(swastika) as they both represent different aspects. See links I provided.
As for the use of the Swastika, it was widely used in Europe and other regions prior to WW II.

While I agree that the figure might upset people and might be mis-interpreted, I must also say that People first need to do some research and find out the background of said figure before heading off on a crusade.
I blame Coca Cola for selling a possible controversial figure, not the designer of said figure.

For me this is just another PC-gob like when Swastikas were outlawed and photos in history books were touched-up to remove them from period photographs.
Heck, one day I could buy a model of a FW190 with correct WW II markings and soon after the same kit was missing the offensive symbol.

Cheers.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
Does he come with a moustache too?

hehehe
Yes, people are stupid. the arms go different ways on the symbols, making them NOT THE SAME SYMBOL.
When you turn the curve of a smiley face the opposite way, does it still mean happy? No. It means f*cking sad. If you turn the arms on the swastika the opposite way, same f*cking concept. They are different signs, symbols what have you, and people *****ing about it is just some whiny f*ck who doesnt even know what the nazi sign is, otherwise there wouldnt be this misconception. Furthermore, if they feel sooo torchered by this symbol, shouldnt they at least know what the f*ck it really looks like?
...
Blah.
Dont get me wrong, I hate nazi's. but I also hate whiney pieces of sh!t who ***** relentlessly about everything and nothing,

So, what happens when I turn a cross upside down and then sell it on a toy to kids?

Face it, even similar looking symbols carry resonances.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger


So, what happens when I turn a cross upside down and then sell it on a toy to kids?

Face it, even similar looking symbols carry resonances.

Agreed.

But how far should we take the banning of possible offensive material.
Why was the "Hackenkreuz"(Swastika) banned but not the "Iron Cross"?

Here is a link to the original Robowaru Toy (http://www.kaikodo.net/by2/122.html) you can see that it features an Omote-Manji and is not standing on it's tip.
I haven't found a pic of the original design with the Manji tilted so far, most of the pics were to small to see if it was either an Omote or Ura-Manji.

I am sure that the figures are painted/assembled by unskilled laborers in China and thus some might end up a bit tilted or even reversed as in the case of the one shown on Yahoo.
Might be a quality control problem.

Cheers.

[shaolin kungfu]

Maybe instead of whining about it's resemblence to a swastika, they should whine about marketing religious symbols to children.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
Maybe instead of whining about it's resemblence to a swastika, they should whine about marketing religious symbols to children.

It's not even the issue of marketing it to children, I'd say. It's more the potential implications of using religious symbols (and religious symbols-turned-political symbols as well) to marekt secular items.

But this is a whole can of worms I don't have time to go into right now.

LC-- really quick (as I'm running out the door), you ask a good question, and since I'm not a sociologist or a historian, I can only guess at an answer. I'd say that the connotations on the Iron cross deal more with WWI, imperial germany, which was seen as a threat, but in a more acceptable manner (i.e. not as many civilian deaths, certainly not as systematic in the deaths that did occur... better treatment of POWs, etc..) The Swastika has its connotations with another violent war, but it's more the Nazi slaughter of civilians that fuels the continued association of the symbol and any similar-looking symbol with racism and genocide.

It's not exactly the best state of affairs, but, like I said before, using any symbols that have such intense socio-religious connotations on a toy is just begging for trouble for some large group of individuals somewhere, anywhere.

Man, I hate talks that make me want to re-read my sociology textbooks...:mad:

;)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger

It's not even the issue of marketing it to children, I'd say. It's more the potential implications of using religious symbols (and religious symbols-turned-political symbols as well) to marekt secular items.


I think the problem is more the global village coming into effect.

The Design was done some 30+yrs ago for Japanese audiences, and I don't think they meant it to spread to the west.
BTW, lots of Japanese products are that way. This doesn't prevent people from bringing them to the west or selling rip-offs.

Now here comes an international company sees this and sez to itself "Hey, I can use this to promote my goods overseas.".
So they do a bit of research and everybody loves it and sees nothing wrong with it.
Now the trial campaign goes off smooth where everyone knows what this particular good means and represents.

Next step it is released to the rest of the world and in a few locations a few people take exception and complain about it.

As an example on diversity, try travelling through europe or asia and communicating with hand-signs & gestures, you will get very different responses in different countries to the same hand-sign or gesture.

Some things aren't just meant to be shared globally.
:D

Cheers.

[Fred Sanford]

the iron cross was handed out for bravery, valor and stuff, kinda like the united states' medal of honor. it existed before nazi germany and in fact the iron crosses during hitlers time had a swastika on them. but i'm sure you knew that.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Fred Sanford
the iron cross was handed out for bravery, valor and stuff, kinda like the united states' medal of honor. it existed before nazi germany and in fact the iron crosses during hitlers time had a swastika on them. but i'm sure you knew that.

Actually, I wasn't aware of that. We always just assumed they meant Imperial Germany when I was in high school.

Yay, public school!

Even so, I would argue that that the swastika is the pervasive symbol of the third reich, and not the Iron Cross-- even to the extent that the Iron Cross is erronously regarded as belonging solely to the Kaiser's era.

but, like I said, I'm no expert in this field, so take it with a huge-@ss grain of salt.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


I think the problem is more the global village coming into effect.



Partially. I still see a huge problem with identifying certain symbols with commerce even among isolated cultures, but that is arguing a different point entirely.


As an example on diversity, try travelling through europe or asia and communicating with hand-signs & gestures, you will get very different responses in different countries to the same hand-sign or gesture.



:D I totally understand that. Improper gesturing nearly got me killed in Brittany 4 years ago. Always a learning experience...



Some things aren't just meant to be shared globally.


Agreed. However, it doesn't lessen the negative impact that these things can have when they cross-over into unfamiliar or other non-native cultures. I just don't see a way around the misunderstandings and eventual ill-will... maybe a few generations will prove me wrong or something.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Agreed. However, it doesn't lessen the negative impact that these things can have when they cross-over into unfamiliar or other non-native cultures. I just don't see a way around the misunderstandings and eventual ill-will... maybe a few generations will prove me wrong or something.

I think it will need more time and more cross-cultural exchange.

At the moment certain things are still fresh in peoples mind and many haven't confined things to History where the should belong, but rather tend to tear open old wounds over and over again.

Cheers.

[Becca]

Not just the whiners tearing open old wounds. There's a hole bunch of extreamist in Montana whom we hear little or nothing from directly, untill they get board of harassing each other and turn on thier naibers. In one aspect, I agree that there was no intended harm, and the gentleman who was offened aught to try looking at thing from another's perspective. But on the other hand, I find myself looking at it from his. How would you react to seeing something openly marketed that resembles the trade mark stamp of the people who wiped out your whole world?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Becca
How would you react to seeing something openly marketed that resembles the trade mark stamp of the people who wiped out your whole world?

I don't know the rest of the world is managing quiet well. I just feel that there are some that are over-sensitive, on both sides of the fence.

Us Europeans would be in real trouble if we would act like that, we only been trying to kill and control each other for 2000+ years and some regions belonged to a few nations during the centuries.
:D

Seeya.

[Mr Punch]

The ura manji only turns into a swastika when it's on its tip right? So it's ok as long as Robowaru doesn't start breakdancing...:rolleyes:

Mind you, I think the evils of breakdancing are more than enough to contend with in that situation.





Nobbut seriously... ban Jews. And Christians, and Moslems. And Nazis. And the Japanese. And the makers of mass-produced and mass marketted toys promoting violent conflict. Then we'll have a lovely old time...

Oops, did I say seriously?:D