Traditional CMA perspective on MMA & BJJ - article

[chen zhen]

I found this very informative article on www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan
It has some good points, and i'd like to share it with you all. It's seen from a Xing Yi- point of view, but I guess that can translate into whatever TCMA, or even all MA-styles:




<http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/tadzio/themyths.gif>
Because of the almost total efficiency of BJJ and because everybody was going down, some myths were created back in the 80's and early 90's:

1 - All the fights begin standing and end up on the ground - there is nothing you can do about it.

2 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground, then it's all over.

3 - If a BJJ fighters achieves the "mounted" position, it's all over.

4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground

5 - Mixed martial arts are the best

These statements are, in fact, ridiculous. But I understand why most part of people believe them. Having in mind the Wu Shu dance, you really begin to think that you have to learn ground fighting and really begin to believe in these "myths." But they are not true at all. Let's analyze them.

1 - All the fights begin standing and end on the ground - Why is that? Why do fights end up on the ground? What happens is that people, first of all, are not learning real Gong Fu, so they don't have the necessary technique to avoid being taken to the ground. In how many ways you can take a person to the ground? Mainly 3 or 4, and the other techniques are only variations. Learn how to counter these movements, like the famous "double leg" or the Brazilian JJ "baiana." They are not difficult to defend. The Gong Fu style you practice should give you tools so you can deal with this techniques. What is lacking to the Gong Fu people out there ( in terms of Xing Yi ):

a - The mind set. The beast inside.

b - Strong Stances - San Ti Shi training is vital here - spend a lot of time on it.

c - Chen Jin

d - How to Fa Jin, and how to release power using short movements.

e - How to use elbows, knees, hips, and shoulders. The 2 man form Pi Wuxing and the bear form are to be trained very well.

f - Reality training. Full power sparring with no protection.

g - A good teacher.

In case you don't lack the above mentioned things and BJJ fighters still take you to the ground, well, then, train more.

2 & 3 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground or achieve the mounted position, it's all over - So again here, we have a common problem. People don't know real Xing Yi Quan. They think they know or, worse, they are conscious they don't know but they want to fool other people. And again, what people (most people) know as Xing Yi is a lie. That's why myths like this spread so fast, because almost no one out there can prove they are only myths. If these people really know Xing Yi, they would understand that XY is not based on techniques, but rather in principles. It is in fact very simple to understand. Teachers train their student in the use of techniques that work for certain situations. At the moment their the opponent makes a different movement, they can't react , because they were not taught how to counter these movements; they didn't learn the proper techniques to apply. So at this point you can already understand that to know techniques is but a single step. More important than this, is to know the mechanics that work behind the techniques. You have to know the concepts. Concepts work in any situation; they work standing or on the ground. A very good example is about how to defend a punch. You have to look deep in to the movement (the punch) and understand that before being a punch, it's a straight force. So if you learn how to defend straight force attacks, and not only a punch, you can defend (using the same movement) a punch, a frontal kick, a side kick, a wrestlers double leg or a BJJ "baiana," for all these movements are in fact straight forces in motion. All good Xing Yi fighters know this. Well, at least they should. And more than anything principles are always principles, standing or on the ground.

4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground - Wrong. Totally wrong. This is exactly the mistake BJJ guys never made. High levels of skill in any martial come only through specialization in a certain art. How do you expect to be proficient in Xing Yi also learning JJ, or wrestling? Why is so easy to take the Gong Fu guys to the ground? Because they are not specialists. At the other hand, BJJ fighters spend hours and hours at BJJ schools learning... guess what? Yes, only BJJ. After a couple of years, they are specialists in BJJ. Do grapplers learn boxing techniques? Yes, they do. But just a little. They know they will always be ground fighting specialists and they understand they only have to learn enough so they won't be knocked down in the process of taking you to the ground. They also understand that boxing is a very very small part of what they need, because the rely in the ground fighting techniques to finish the opponent. What do Gong Fu guys do ? Exactly what they shouldn't. Instead of training what they are supposed to, Gong Fu, they decide that they have to divide their time between Gong Fu and BJJ or wrestling. They should do what BJJ fighters do. Train a lot in what their are supposed to be specialists ( Gong Fu ) and have a minimum knowledge about ground fighting, so that in the case they go to the ground, they will no be finished. So what happens today is that grapplers are extremely good in what they do ( specialists ) and have a minimum knowledge of the standing game ( a lot of people is doing crosstraining and they are very good standing and on the ground, but the best fighters are still the specialists ). At the other hand, Gong Fu fighters are not so good standing and are also not so good on the ground. Some might even argue that " I train only Gong Fu and I still don't feel safe! ". Well my friend, the question is: what kind of Gong Fu are you training? If it is the " kick boxing " kind of Gong Fu, you will never feel safe anyway. For this is only sport. Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan.

5 - Mixed martial arts are the best - Nothing, nothing is better than specialization. When people have only part of a knowledge, something incomplete, they have to look out for other sources of knowledge.Imagine you have a half filled glass of water (your Gong Fu) but you have to fill the glass up. The problem is that you don;t have water anymore (you have a limited knowledge about the Gong Fu principles). In this case you have to find out other liquids to fill the glass up. You have a little bit of orange juice (grappling) and you have a bit of, say tequila (kick boxing). At the end, the glass is filled up, but the truth is that you have only a bit of everything. So as a fighter, you are not very good in grappling, not very good in kick boxing and not very good at Gong Fu. You have a bit of everything and at the same time you have nothing.

It's true that many BJJ are now going a bit deep into boxing and Thai boxing, but take a look at the best guys ever : Rickson Gracie, Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie, and Rolls Gracie; they are or were absolute specialist in BJJ. How about the famous Che Yi Zhai, Guo Yun Sheng, Wang Xiang Zhai ? Ok. Tell this guys they should mix a lot of martial arts together. Guys that never lost a single fight after they were well trained.


<http://emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/tadzio/conclusion.gif>

[Internal Boxer]

Unfortunately we are back to the same old argument, the author who wrote this I understand where he is coming from, in principal I can see his point of view and do share his thoughts, but inreality its just another example of someone telling us how it should be rather than how it IS!!!!!

I find it rather annoying that these mouth boxers sit behind their PC and spout off about the ideals of IMA, do we see this guys backing up his views???? FU.CK NO. Has he entered any ameteur MMA tournies to back up his words DOUBT IT. He does not have to prove to me he can beat the gracies, just a few bouts at ameteur level would convince me that he can show the skill. But the response to entering a comp would be one or more:

1) I am too deadly

2) I am not an egotist to go in for such competitions

3) I am not yet good enough (in that case shut the fu.ck up until you are)

4) I only practice for "real" street confrontations not sports.


Besides it is a misconception that cross-training in grappling reduces the skill when developing IMA, I would say the reverse, especially with Tai Chi, my push hands has improved because in grappling you are constantly in contact, and develop "listening skills".

The art of "Sit on urarse-Fu". :rolleyes: I sincerely hope I am proved wrong and he has been very successful in MMA comps with Xingyi. But I would put money on he hasn't.

[Merryprankster]

I dislike the entire article except for the bit about specialization. That much is true. Most great fighters have one or two things they do extremely well and are adequate at the others.

I've said this once and I'll say it again--the prototype for "striker" type MA's should be Chuck Liddell and Mo Smith. Adequate to great takedown defenses, can keep from getting submitted on the ground, and know how to get back up.



More important than this, is to know the mechanics that work behind the techniques. You have to know the concepts. Concepts work in any situation; they work standing or on the ground.

This quotation reveals that the author is in the "thinks they know what they are talking about" group. Why? Because employing concepts on the ground requires DIFFERENT mechanics. The principles remain, but the mechanics are NOT THE SAME because the way of moving properly on the ground is different. To make the broad generalization that the concepts are the same is a banal observation. To not caveat that generalization by recognizing that fact reveals either ignorance or spectacularly willful obtuseness.

I know your list of chinese fighters never lost a fight exactly how? Where can I see them? Or is it oral history passed down through generations? Oral history is SOOOOOO reliable.

FWIW, while the Gracies are living legends in the MMA world, MANY people would argue that "they are the best." The debate especially rages on about Rickson....

[Stranger]

Sherdog Picks for Strikers:

Igor Vovchanchin performs a wicked sprawl transitioned into the doom of his opponent. His physique and sambo training made him an excellent anti-grappler and his iron head andstone hands made him a threat to swap blows with. He was rarely man-handled even by the biggest wrestlers.

Bas Rutten is shown delivering brutal palm strikes and body punches. He doesn't prevent the takedown as well as Igor.

Mirko Filipovic has the most wicked roundhouse in MMA that I have ever seen. He can take your head of with it, crush your ribs, or cripple your legs in a way that makes me cringe to watch. There is also great multi-angle footage of a knee smash taking out the grappler's double leg attempt.

Vanderlei Silva is another standout. He has the clinch skill to punish people that don't take him down immediately.

Plus some food for thought: Sak is not a great striker but he does well striking. Why? Because he doesn't fear the takedown or grappling. He literally plays with skilled opponents because if he screws up he can deal with the consequences. I think his video says something about what confidence, preparedness, and the absence of tension can give to a fighter.

*******

This is just second-hand info, but....
I've gathered from other postings on this site that the author and his crew are not sitting on their arse. That doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but it does give them the credentials to write on the subject.

[Merryprankster]

Good points about Vov. Manhandled KERR.

The guys you provided are all good models. I just kind of felt Mo was the first...

[Stranger]

I just kind of felt Mo was the first...

No doubt, Mo's kick to Conan's head was the warning shot to the pure grapplers. Some people discredited it because Conan wasn't viewed as a top-notch BJJ player and the EFC (?) was of a lower caliber than the UFC. Once Mo weathered the Coleman storm and ended that fight strongly and with the UFC belt, most people recognized he was no fluke. The fact that he helped train Pete Williams, who was then capable of putting Coleman's lights out with a headkick in a battle of attrition, cemented Maurice Smith's role as a pioneer in anti-grappling and cross-training.

[ewallace]

What happens is that people, first of all, are not learning real Gong Fu
:rolleyes:

[rogue]

Reality training. Full power sparring with no protection. Uhh, OK.

[chen zhen]

I thought I'd like to put something more MA-related on the main board, it's been kind of off-topic lately.
you all have some good points.

"Reality training. Full power sparring with no protection"

:eek: I don't think the author would've wrote that if he had tried it himself

[rogue]

I get pretty messed up doing light to moderate sparring with no protection. But I'm a wuss anyway.:p

[Royal Dragon]

What happens is that people, first of all, are not learning real Gong Fu

Reply]
Actually, this is a big problem with the Chinese arts. There is such a culture of secrecy that most of what you see is just the outside of the art, so much so it is not even functional anymore.

[Water Dragon]

I don't have a comment on the article. I don't know Tadzio either. But I wanted to point out that the gentleman who wrote the article appears to get a lot of respect from people I personally have respect for. FWIW

[ewallace]

I understand your point Royal Dragon. However, that is also a commonly used excuse by others when someone who has a background in CMA/TMA actually tries to test those skills and loses.

Just who determines what Real gong fu is?

[Water Dragon]

ewallace, here's a question for you. How many schools have you seen that provided the same quality of instruction as the Mountain? Now, think about all the people who don't really know what they're looking for.

[MasterKiller]

Just who determines what Real gong fu is?

Me.

[Royal Dragon]

WD, You have a good point, and THAT is a primary reason why Kung Fu does not do very good in MMA.

[ewallace]

To answer WD's question, not many.

The person who wrote the article may or may not be respected, good, or a practicioner of Real Gong fu. For me, when I see an article like this, my only response is prove it. And I am totally neutral in the whole CMA vs MMA argument because i've seen and practiced good CMA, I had my ass kicked by someone who was a good CMA, and I have seen and felt good MMA. But I can definitely see where the MMA bias comes from. To them, and to some extent to me, this is just another article in a pile of many that demonstrates how good CMA is on paper.

[Water Dragon]

I think it's more of a point of just not caring. I'm getting there myself. At this point, I could care less if CMA ever steps up in the world of NHB. It's not important to me. I'm always hearing about people *****ing and moaning about CMA sucks because it never appears in the UFC. I've never heard one of those guys offer to step up on the Lei Tai.

When I was taking BJJ in the city, I would get schooled constantly on the mat. I tapped one person the whole time I was there. But when we started stand up, I would dominate the throwing game. This was 2 years ago, before my body changed and I became "heavy"

I have no doubt that if I got into a fight with a BJJ man, I could destroy him from the clinch. I also have no doubt that he would destroy me if the fight made it to the ground. I made a decision on what I wanted to be good at and invested my time there. I feel I made the right decision.

A system is not something you learn and then you're good. A system is nothing more than a bunch of exercises that you train to develop a specific set of skills. I'm learning Xing Yi now along with the SC. I can now put my habd on you and hit you with no wind up. I can shake a wooden wall when I hit it. I still can't fight with it, but I've had enough of a taste to know that a Xing Yi guy could destroy most with the power they develop. That doesn't change the fact that a BJJ guy will still dominate him on the ground or that a solid Thai kick could buckle his leg.

Who cares? Just train.

[ewallace]

Who cares? Just train.
Exactly. Which really makes me wonder why the author wrote that article. If someone is going to point out how efficient their style is, and to an extent better than another style, that needs to be proven, not spoken.

[Black Jack]

Who cares? Just train.

Good mindset.

[Merryprankster]

Exactly. Which really makes me wonder why the author wrote that article. If someone is going to point out how efficient their style is, and to an extent better than another style, that needs to be proven, not spoken.

Bingo.

More precisely, if somebody is going to point out how their training methods produce generally better fighters, then they need to consistently churn out fighters who win.

There's an awful lot of interest in Shooter's tai chi on mma.tv!

If you're going to loudly claim to anybody in earshot that Master so and so's style and training would produce a guy who beat the snot out of any MMA fighter in an MMA format be prepared to back it up with somebody or several somebodies in the ring. No excuses.

Put up or shut up--it's that simple. The reason people care and think its important is because of all the crap MA schools that are out there--they got there because people DIDN'T go after idiots who claimed any **** thing they wanted about their skills. Sporting arts are self policing. While McDojo's WILL spring up, everybody will know who is who because their guys will win and keep on winning. It'll be like boxing or Judo--there will be some bad gyms, but everybody who cares will find out who puts out great fighters and who puts out tomato cans.

w/regards to lei tai fighters, most MMAers that I know think that stuffs pretty cool and have tremendous respect for San Da/San Shou guys. So I'm not sure what the problem is.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Merryprankster

w/regards to lei tai fighters, most MMAers that I know think that stuffs pretty cool and have tremendous respect for San Da/San Shou guys. So I'm not sure what the problem is.


MMA is really cool. I have nothing but respect for them. But that BJJ stuff sure does stink. If they're so good, why don't we see them in San Shou matches. All they do is roll around on the ground like a bunch of dogs in heat. What a bunch of romos.

[chen zhen]

Ok, maybe the discussion of the article is dying out. I'll now post another article, I think it is also Tadzio who has written it:
------

The Chinese Martial arts were created not as a way to cultivate the spirit. They were created as a way to total efficiency in a real combat situation, therefore, radically differing from what we know as "sport". Things like the term "martial sport" are nothing but a dream; and a very bad one in fact. This conception of "martial sport" can never exist. Or you practice a martial art or you practice a sport. Both (martial arts and sports) are totally opposite in their paths and one could never find a middle term between them. Any attempt to promote a certain sport "taste" to the martial arts will end, as ends nowadays, in putting the glorious past that we have to shame.

Tui shou (pushing hands) competitions, forms (with weapons or not), fighting tournaments. They are not valuable for the true martial artist.


In a way, they do prepare the fighter to a new level of mind developing, in the sense that you have to learn how to control your emotions in order to be succesful in fighting tournaments. But this could very well be achieved without it.

The person who seriously practices a martial art, is not interested in whether or not his/her movements will look pretty or not; is not interested in reaching a certain state of mind (not in a primary plan) like Buddahood or whatever; he/she knows that this are not the primary points. This person knows that instead of pretty movements, he is searching for efficient movements in a real combat situation, and also knows that in order to be efficient in combat his body has to be healthy, because without a healthy body, he can not even train.



Today, there are almost any kind of tournaments a person might imagine, for almost every martial art, and these tournaments are based upon rules that restrict the use of techniques so that the athletes could maintain their physical health. Also, different from centuries ago, our society is more organized. Fighting is not so common anymore, unless you are a bodyguard or something similar. The martial arts are not necessary to keep you alive anymore. But, in the other hand, our Western society is becoming more and more violent and some aspects from the past societies are coming back again with full power. Today, we once more have this feeling that to know an efficient method of self-defense could make a difference in our lives. So in our modern society, these tournaments are used to measure a person's progress in a certain martial art. People also use this tournaments as a kind of thermometer that would indicate how well the athlete would do in a real fight. But exactly because of its rules and limitations, a tournament is far, very far of putting someone close to a real combat situation. No matter how many rules you have (some claim to have few); by the moment you have rules, it's not free fighting anymore.

What usually happens is that people begin to train for the tournament (with its restrictions) and not having in mind a real fight. Certain principles adopted for real fights just can't be used in tournaments as:


1 - The longer you stay in a fight, the more dangerous it is for you.

2 - Look for the main targets as throat, knees, groins, eyes etc.

3 - Show no mercy - no matter how violent it might seem, strike him hard, or else he will strike you first.

continued:


As we can see by some of the principles outlined above, they can never be used in a competition. Plus, there is the psychological factor, that is of the utmost importance in a real fight. In a competition there are doctors, the staff, the judge, weight divisions and timed rounds. When people are fighting in a competition, they are sure that in case they are knocked-down or in case they can't match the opponent, the judge will step in and stop the fight; then the doctor will come and decide if he has conditions to go back and fight more. On the streets, in a real fight, this is not the reality. Street fights are not fair; bottles, chairs, knives and even the hard sidewalk floor could (and believe me would) be used against the opponent. So the mind set is totally different, for in a tournament you might want to take your opponent down fast, but you have restrictions, and if you can't take him down, the worse thing that can happen is that you might be knocked unconscious; after a while you will be safe at home again. On the streets you also want to take the opponent down fast, but you will do whatever you have to do in order to win; anything is permitted, for you know if you can't take him down, he will take you down first, and maybe, if he's a bad guy, you won't be walking again, or worse.

One needs then the warrior mind set; like a soldier. Use whatever you can; do not hesitate. Be fast and when it's over just walk away, because when your are fighting for your life, there is no place for high kicks to the head and other ridiculous techniques.

Some will then argue that if not by the rules many people would die in these competitions. That's true. But the "testing field" of a true martial art will never be a tournament, but the hard floor of the streets, where he has nothing but his skills to depend on.

Today we also have the NHB kind of competition. Although this was pretty normal in Brazil, it's something relatively new in the USA. This tournaments show a different level of reality and they are definitely to be chosen instead of the rest we have out there. But it is necessary to say that although the are more "realistic", they are not real at all. Not real in the sense that the winner of these tournaments, might no be the winner in a real fight, just because of the rules that are used in it. But we really have to admit that NHB competitions are presenting us to more and more very good fighters.



Nowadays is China, this kind of competition has become very famous. Here it is called San Da, that means "to break-up by beating". This is the new kind of Wu Shu (Chinese martial arts) created by the government after 1949. It uses mainly Boxing punching techniques , Tae-kwon-do kicks and Chinese Shuai Jiao (wrestling) movements. What happens is that all the competitors, no matter which Gong Fu style they practice, fight all the same. This aspect itself is already bad, and to make things worse, what they fight doesn't look like Gong Fu at all; looks like Thai Boxing. Bad Thai Boxing.


continued:

So any intelligent person (even a not very intelligent one) knows that each style of Gong Fu has different techniques, different ways to generate power and different strategies to fight. So they go to say, a Xing Yi school. Then they train every day San Ti Shi, the 5 elements, 12 animals, fighting techniques and forms, study how to generate power in a very unique way. And then they go to a tournament and fight, like, Thai boxers. They are, at least, not being honest . Because if you learn a style of Gong Fu with unique characteristics but fight like a Thai boxer or a Kick boxer, you'd better sign up in a Thai box school; you will save a lot of time training something you never use. Some so called "Gong Fu schools" that have home pages on the Net even show pictures of its teachers or students that placed first or second in this kind of San Da (also called San Shou) tournaments.
These kind of tournaments are good only to show people what real Gong Fu is not, and people who train to fight in these tournaments, like pseudo-kick boxers, are only contributing for the extinction of the orthodox systems of Chinese martial arts. (Because I don't want to be unfair, I want to say that are still some teachers out there that teach their fighters (specially in Kuo Shu) how to fight real Gong Fu and real Xing Yi.). Stop for a while and try to picture masters from the past, such as Guo Yun Shen, Che Yi Zhai, Yang Cheng Fu, Gu Ru Zhang. Try to imagine them in a fight. Would they fight like Thai boxers ? Would they use Western boxing techniques and round kicks to the head ?? Would this movements work on the streets?

[chen zhen]

continued:

These kind of tournaments are good only to show people what real Gong Fu is not, and people who train to fight in these tournaments, like pseudo-kick boxers, are only contributing for the extinction of the orthodox systems of Chinese martial arts. (Because I don't want to be unfair, I want to say that are still some teachers out there that teach their fighters (specially in Kuo Shu) how to fight real Gong Fu and real Xing Yi.). Stop for a while and try to picture masters from the past, such as Guo Yun Shen, Che Yi Zhai, Yang Cheng Fu, Gu Ru Zhang. Try to imagine them in a fight. Would they fight like Thai boxers ? Would they use Western boxing techniques and round kicks to the head ?? Would this movements work on the streets?


I am not saying here that the athletes that enter into this kind of tournaments are not tough at all. They are very good fighters, tough guys and we have to admit that they have guts to go up there and fight; that's for sure. But another thing is for sure: what they are doing is not Gong Fu, and they are more than often not prepared for a real fight. What is the sense about saying you won a tournament with rules? With weigh divisions? What is the sense in saying that you won a fight against a guy from your weight category? That's nothing. Should I spend years in a school just to be able to handle someone of my weight? A martial art should give you tools to handle a stronger and bigger opponent. Or else, why practice at all?

So, people wanted to get traditional Gong Fu and make competitions. Because Gong Fu is a war art, they had to make a decision: to adapt the Gong Fu, change it in order to fit the "competition way", or not to make competitions at all. They decided to change the Gong Fu they have learned to fit tournaments. Wrong decision, if you ask me. So we came to a point where many practitioners don't know that what people call Gong Fu today, is an aberration, something different from orthodox Gong Fu. They think this is the real deal, because they have never seen people fight in an orthodox way. Today, Gong Fu is a joke between serious fighters. NHB fighters laugh about Chinese Gong Fu, because of what they see in tournaments. Take one of this San Da tournament winners to China and let them have a go with orthodox people, or even with elite soldiers from the army.

That's why, in a sense, I very much admire some people from Yong Chun (Wing Chun) They know that there can't be a Gong Fu competition with rules. Of course a lot of "wannabes" could hide themselves under this "no competition" concept, but there are a lot of people out there who understand the true essence of Gong Fu.

Of course people who have the point of view I am defending here might be accused of being "barbarians" or of not understanding the essence of Chinese Gong Fu and so on. A lot of people have different opinions then me, and I am willing to talk to them, and I understand the critics. But like in the past, in the old China, and even today in some provinces, the old discussion method is still the best. Two man, face to face, testing their skills. To much talking about Gong Fu is not good. Gong Fu is to be trained and not to be talked about. Just don't expect me to wear gloves and fight like a Thai boxer. No one is invincible. I might lose, you might lose, everybody loses. But losing is being honest to the art you practice, and most importantly, being honest to yourself. For then, even if you lose, you win.

------

phew, that was maybe too long.
So, what's your opinions? I'll let you start the discussion.;)
I'll post some more information about Tadzio Goldgewicht at another time, it'll maybe be easier to relate to his articles if we know his background.

[Merryprankster]

WD,

You and I both know that's a false analogy because San Shou doesn't allow ground work at all. MMA, on the other hand, allows EVERYTHING that San Shou fighters do. There is not one weapon allowed in San Shou/San Da that you can't find in an MMA format somewhere.

Nice try.

A better, and more accurate analogy would be to talk about how Muay Thai fighters suck because they don't seem to do well in the Lei Tai. The pussies.

[Water Dragon]

One thing you will never hear me do is call a MT guy a ***** I've been kicked by them before.

You understand the point I'm trying to make though, don't you?

[Suntzu]

If they're so good, why don't we see them in San Shou matches. All they do is roll around on the ground like a bunch of dogs in heat. What a bunch of romos. LOL @ WD's spin...

Exactly. Which really makes me wonder why the author wrote that article. If someone is going to point out how efficient their style is, and to an extent better than another style, that needs to be proven, not spoken. ***** envy… and business competition… the Shifu's see these MMA schools blowin' up… coming to their tourny's tooling the TCMAists… the students get tooled and leave to go to the MMA school… and all that’s left in the Shifu's kwoon is puzzies and Tai Chi hippies andlil kids... but the only Shifu knows how to market hisself is with theory and legend... both of which has been passed down gen after gen... and the next gen of hippies and puzzies open upp a school... and the tooling, marketing cycle begins again... that's what happens when MMA let the girl out of the well...

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by Suntzu
***** envy… and business competition… the Shifu's see these MMA schools blowin' up… coming to their tourny's tooling the TCMAists… the students get tooled and leave to go to the MMA school… and all that’s left in the Shifu's kwoon is puzzies and Tai Chi hippies andlil kids... but the only Shifu knows how to market hisself is with theory and legend... both of which has been passed down gen after gen... and the next gen of hippies and puzzies open upp a school... and the tooling, marketing cycle begins again... that's what happens when MMA let the girl out of the well...

Nope, wrong, try again.
You dont know the author and you dont know where hes coming from.

[Merryprankster]

I understand your frustration, and I agree with the reasons you're frustrated. I just give you credit for being a smart guy and know there is no way you could possibly think what you said was truly valid.

And while Suntzu may or may not be right on about the motivation, he is RIGHT ON about the effect. MMA has been a wake up call that MA schools better start making realistic claims or they look pretty dumb, even to a casual observer of moderate intelligence with basic research skills.

[ewallace]

Xebs, I could kick your ass. I know this because your style is weak.

[Shaolin-Do]

I dont see any problem with cross training a little :)
I usually invest 1 day every week or 2 to hard core mat practice. Then again I already have BJJ experience, so Im not really learning, just honing skills on the floor... As for "not letting yourself be taken down" thats pretty much how I feel. And as for "real world training", you never know who is going to tackle you from the side, behind, ect... when you are fighting his buddy, and some knowledge of grappling will help you get the f*ck back off your feet and fighting in minimum time, incorporate some good gong fu into the come up, and probably do some damage on the way back up.
"this style beats this style, ect," thats a bunch of BS. certain stylists beat certain stylists. Thats the key word. Stylist, not style. That stylist spent all his time honing skills, training harder than the other guy, plain and simple. Then there is also the fact that some people are just natural fighters, just like some people were born with a natural gift to athletics, or music, ect...
"Full power sparring with no protection"
that sh!t just made me laugh. wouldnt that be fighting?

[ewallace]

That's because you don't practice real gong fu. :)

[Suntzu]

nope... your jumping to conclusions... and lacking a sense of humor... but the women down there are off the chain so therefore i wont jack u up... just in case i get down that way a need some one to show me around...

that and the fact you're many miles away and might actually can whoop my azz....

[chen zhen]

Here's hat I could find about the author on emptyflower:
---
Tadzio Goldgewicht
Tadzio is a 4th generation practioner of Che style Xingyiquan, Bu clan. He translated and contributed the section on Master Che Yong Hong, whose style he practices, which is from the book "Shanxi Xin Yi Liu He Quan." His lifelong devotion and no-nonsense approach to the arts makes him a great addition to the handful of experienced internalists that contribute to the message boards.
---
Doesn't really say much. maybe he is a pu ssy after all:rolleyes:

[Xebsball]

Originally posted by ewallace
Xebs, I could kick your ass. I know this because your style is weak.

Beatch, suuck my d!ck :mad:
Fock yo moma ina ass


MerryP, i tell from the Xing Yi peopel i train with, none of us are weakling hippie pussies. BTW, when are you gonna get schooled in Rio again? :)

[Shaolin-Do]

Bah.
I wont have this redundant argument.
:o

and besides, even working on knitting, music, ect... long and hard enough to be good at it would be "kung fu" by terms.

But regardless, this argument will cease when I go to legacy. :)

[Suntzu]

:eek: :D OWNED (http://www.sherdog.net/forums/attachment.php?postid=1359388 )...

[Shaolin-Do]

bahaha
I will own.
I will own several midgets whom I contract out to bleach peoples roof tops in kilts and argile socks.

[ewallace]

I will own several midgets whom I contract out to bleach peoples roof tops in kilts and argile socks.
There's only one midget dealer in these parts son, so you best refresh your mind New Jack City style before I slap a Nino Brown on your Beitch ass. :)

[Shaolin-Do]

Shiiiiat
I have the finest kilt wearing argile sock clad midgets anywhere in the world. Everyone one comes with all 10 fingers, most with at least 8 or 9 toes still.

I am also soon to contract myself out to sleep drunken in peoples front lawns. I will call it "drunken bjj".

[ewallace]

I have the finest kilt wearing argile sock clad midgets anywhere in the world.
Yeah, but there's only one Serpent in the world, and he's my *****. I have papers to prove it too.

[Shaolin-Do]

I have papers, but they dont prove much.
All they say is "smoking deluxe"

[ewallace]

1.0 or 1.5?

[chen zhen]

While you where looking away, I stole all your midgets

WHOO's ya daddy?
:cool:

[Shaolin-Do]

I have blue package and black package.
But they are not 1.5
its 1.0 and .75

super thin see your **** through the paper style papers. Made for full taste, so you too can be "smoking deluxe"

:)
Anyhow, I gotta go get a tetnis(sp?) shot. Got stuck right in the spine by rusty nail yesterday.
peaceout-
SD

[norther practitioner]

Originally posted by chen zhen
While you where looking away, I stole all your midgets

WHOO's ya daddy?
:cool:


yeah, did you stick them into your avatars breasts... geez:D

[chen zhen]

Yes, and up my @ss too.

[NorthernMantis]

Uhh before we continue this topic I would like to say something to defend both sides...

For the cma side: During my past sparring experience I have sparred some wrestlers and taller people and they could not take me down. Whenever anyone says stances don't work they don't know what they are taling about and I'm 5'4 135 lbs by the way and I was 115-125 back then.:D

For the ground fighter side: My happy behind got taken down by some who did not how to ground fight.:eek: :eek: :confused: :( :D :p


What a coinkidink huh MP?lol!:D

It basically comes down to what you know and how you use it.:cool:

[chen zhen]

Thanks for bringing it on-topic again, NM, I was getting dragged down myself:rolleyes:

But, yeah, basically is it a good thing to learn ground-fighting, to know that aspect of fighting as well. But it's not good to think that just if you train hard in your style ( a non-grappling style) you can just defend against any type of attack. You will have to learn how to defend against grappling as well, and you will then (maybe) have a hard time doing that, with the techniques of your non-grappling style. you might then as well learn a grappling-style on the side anyway.
I guess all this have been said before.:rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

I think we can all agree today that learning some sort of Ground Grappeling system is good. I mean, it's not like the full weighted knee drops to the neck or lower rib cage commonly used by TCMA styles after throws is a good idea anymore, unless you facing multiple opponents in the street or something. In which case you'd better be very versed in anti takedown skills yourself.

[sweaty_dog]

"MMA is really cool. I have nothing but respect for them. But that BJJ stuff sure does stink. If they're so good, why don't we see them in San Shou matches. All they do is roll around on the ground like a bunch of dogs in heat. What a bunch of romos."

If I could find a San Shou match, I'd try it. Sounds like somebody got his wittle neck squeezed by the nasty BJJers.

[shaolin kungfu]

bjj is only for people that like to flop around with other men.

[Internal Boxer]

Yeah and boxing is for guys who like to play slap tag :D

[sweaty_dog]

"bjj is only for people that like to flop around with other men."

Sure it is! Why don't you pop around to your friendly neighbourhood bjj school and tell them that.

PS Don't let your sifu touch your bottom, even if he says he is just checking your chi.

[Volcano Admim]

Well, young sweety_canis familiaris, you obvously dont come from a tough neightboorhoud, dad pays your marshial art i know you do

boxing breakfast of champion, take four E's at one time with no water to swallow mine. red pills, blue pills and green - big pills - mescaline.

[sweaty_dog]

"Well, young sweety_canis familiaris, you obvously dont come from a tough neightboorhoud, dad pays your marshial art i know you do

boxing breakfast of champion, take four E's at one time with no water to swallow mine. red pills, blue pills and green - big pills - mescaline."

Volcanom! Many I am feeling the bad thing off forum, kung fu stylist not the respect of jiu jits Gracy! person call my style the ****s, what response you expecting? restrained I am response, have many the inselts but type only one! the way by, my neighbourghootd you don't live and my father don't you know so you can enjoy FUT THE SHUCK UP.

PS LSD is bad for you.

PPS Ground fighting can be good. Kung fu can be good. If you feel otherwise I would suggest proving it instead of writing *****y posts.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I don't have a comment on the article. I don't know Tadzio either. But I wanted to point out that the gentleman who wrote the article appears to get a lot of respect from people I personally have respect for. FWIW
Hi WD. I have a comment on that article. It's not very good (aah, the Great British art of understatement!:D). Now, I don't know the writer at all, so I can't comment on his skills. I don't know you either, but from what you write on these boards you seem to know what you're talking about, so when you say he's respected I could take that as good advice. However, what he said seems to make a mockery of the accepted wisdom out there (and I'm not talking about accepted wisdom like the Earth is flat, but proven in a number of formats).

Your argument about having experience of taking people out in the clinch, or throwing people down with no frills, I can take as valid experience, but even then we see how the CMA got to be such a rumour mill in the first place... I sometimes find myself saying 'I was talking to some guy the other day who said...' and what I mean was, 'I was hanging out reading some stuff on KFO which said...'.

Which all comes back down to shut up and train! (Not you, generally!)


Internal boxer
3) I am not yet good enough (in that case shut the fu.ck up until you are)This is a silly thing to say. I'm not good enough to compete in most MMA formats, but I will be, if I train sensibly enough to get to that level before I get too bloody old. I train hard. I train well. I (sometimes!) know what I'm talking about.

[Shaolin-Do]

hehehe
I like to cross train. :)
And if I enter an mma tourney as kung fu, one of these grappling f*cks will think they have an easy win. If they succeed in taking me down, Ill make them cry for it.
:)

[fa_jing]

I believe Tadzio participated successfully in Vale Tudo or some such....

[chen zhen]

He did? Did he then use PUURE Xingyi technique as he advocates in his articles, or just vale tudo? 'Cos else he would be a hypocrite

[SevenStar]

Ask Felipe - I think he knows him pretty well...

[chen zhen]

OK thanks:) , I will

[Tadzio]

Good day you all.
This is going to be a short post.
I have never entered valetudo tournaments. I have fought people from different arts in the course of the many years I've trained in Rio. Our school was (and still is) opened to everyone that wanted to go test us.
We never had "life-death" fights with anyone, but we did kick some asses. Mostly Kungfu sorry asses. But we also kikced karate asses, BJJ asses and Thai boxing asses. Through all this fights we got a lot of respect, we made a lot of new friends.
Shortly after I left Brazil I was teaching in one of the oldest Thai boxing schools in Rio - Naja. I was respected as a fighter and frequently did valetudo training with all kinds of strikers and grapplers, wearing nothing but trunks. That was a time of mutual respect and friendship; key elements in the martial world. We.ve always used pure XY and Cailifot.
My fist teacher back in Brazil was the man that thought me the mind set. No bull**** with him, neither with me. He was the one fighting everybody in the old days and I'm sure he's also doing it now, if necessary. My present teacher, although 64 years old has the same mind set and I',ve seen him being tested by men half of his age in parks. These are man that can back up their words. I thank God for bringing these 2 men in my life.
I would hapilly play with ANY of you guys if you are in China, as I did with some other foreigners that also live in China (hey T, O,D), but I reach a lot more people just writing.
So, I understand you are questioning the man behind the article. Can a really backup my words? Yes I can, but you shouldn't believe me anyway for seeing, and only seeing, is believing. I know that there are people that often come to China, and although I live in Shanxi ,I'd be happy to go to Beijing to meet some people, play and stuff. That's all I can say.
Now get out of here and go do the one thing that matters the most in XY- Go train.


Tadzio.

[Unmatchable]

Next time you play, can you video tape it and post it here? I've never seen real xy in action.

btw Tadzio, do you spar with no gloves and headgear? If so do you go all out on your partners?

[chen zhen]

Hi, Tadzio, thank you for posting, and welcome! Now we may set some things straight, in our discussion here.. and sorry for anything that we.. uh maybe I have posted about you:rolleyes: :)

[Merryprankster]

Yes I can, but you shouldn't believe me anyway for seeing, and only seeing, is believing.

And people on here ***** about this when us MMA and grappler types just want some legit tapes! LOL!

Thanks man, you brought a smile to me (in a good way.)

[chen zhen]

I just started XY myself- so it's really nice to see somebody who can make this shiet work:)

[Dai Yoshida]

Personally, I have never been very impressed with any grappling style. It all pre-supposes that there is a soft mat to land on. Realistically, there is always going to be rocks, broken bottles, nails, coffee tables etc.

Submission techniques are only useful if you are always fighting one-on-one. It's hard to pin your opponent if somebody else is kicking you in the face.

If grapplers can only fight on a mat under controlled condition, that's about as effetive as thumb fighting.

[taijiquan_student]

Sigh.

[sweaty_dog]

"Personally, I have never been very impressed with any grappling style. It all pre-supposes that there is a soft mat to land on. Realistically, there is always going to be rocks, broken bottles, nails, coffee tables etc.

Submission techniques are only useful if you are always fighting one-on-one. It's hard to pin your opponent if somebody else is kicking you in the face.

If grapplers can only fight on a mat under controlled condition, that's about as effetive as thumb fighting."

OK, you have one guy who does throws and takedowns all the time. You have another one who doesn't. Who do you think will be hitting that nasty icky ground first and hardest? And frankly I have been walking around today and I haven't seen any nails or broken glass, not even a coffee table!

And if one guy grabs you while the other is hitting you, who will escape sooner, the one who spends hours escaping from clinches, or the one who is waiting patiently for a chance to do his reverse punch?

Also, a pin is not a submission, they are two very different things.

[Merryprankster]

Actually Dai, I presuppose that I'm going to put YOU into the concrete quite a hell of a lot faster than you've ever hit it before.

That's the beauty of it, you see... I'm not going to pull guard and roll around. I'm going to drop you on your head.

I train like I fight/fight like I train. Part of that involves making sure you hit something hard, fast, and then, if I NEED to, for some inexplicable reason, perhaps choking you into a drooling mass or breaking a limb for you...

Or taking one of those ineffective pins you hate so much and using it to knee your face into a bloody mess.

I might add that all of this can be neatly accomplished in 5 or 6 seconds.

Me personally? I like to use my grappling training to stay on my feet in a self defense situation. Thanks to my years of training to do precisely that, against people who have no other goal in mind, I've gotten better at it than most, and I know I can outclinch about 99% of the population.

So why not grapple again? Oh, wait...there's no good reason not to seek out some quality instruction.

[Unstoppable]

LMAO THAT IS THE DUMBERST ARTICLE I READ

"In how many ways you can take a person to the ground? Mainly 3 or 4, and the other techniques are only variations. "


HAHAHAHAHHAH THAT IS HILARIOUS

[chen zhen]

What the hell happened to tadzio? he came and he left again.
maybe we offended him in some way..that's more than likely:cool:

[chen zhen]

Ok, more opinions?