Tun & Tan

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


To start up something new I was think about Tun and Tan last night and figured why not post it on here for chat.


What do you find yourself using more often?


With me, I tend to make use of Tan from the outside and Tun from the inside.

If my hand was a bit extended I end up coming back with a Tun. If I find my body turned and end up turning back the other way to recieve I also find myself making use of the Tun.

When I am cutting in from the outside I normally find myself making use of the Tan. When my hand is a bit low and I cut up I also find myself making more use of the Tan.


How about you guys?


Regards,

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Jim,

Why not Tun, Tan, and Tom! :D

Just kidding. What is Tun? I am not sure I am familiar with the term, though maybe with the action. Also, what purpose do you use tan for? Many sources seem to use tan as a blocking type action. In my experience it is more subtle and is more of a checking, controling type hand. I probably would try not to shoot it out to meet a punch, but rather transition to it from another hand. I may use it on the inside or outside.

Tom
________
HASHISH (http://trichomes.org/hashish/full-melt-hash)

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Tom!


Tan spreads open force or disperses it while Tun swallows the force in a more recieving type of action. Both make use of the same hand shape but are indeed two different purposes!

Tan spirals outward from the Jung Sein while the Tun usually spirals a bit backwards. Normally body positioning would have to be important as you do not want anything coming back towards your own frame!

As for the "Tom" Sao I would have to ask you what its all about! hehehe


Regards,

[reneritchie]

For me it depends on application, path of power.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


What do you find happening more often for you during Chi Sao or San Sao? Do you find Tan cmoing out more or Tun etc.?


See ya,

[yuanfen]

Jim:

I dont think of specific motions because there are so many
equivalencies and combinations possible---what you are calling tun-
it could be jut, wu, jam etc. Lots of things can come out in chi sao.

joy

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Joy!


How are you?


I do not think of "techniques" when boxing but during exchanges do you notice certain things coming out? Many skills can have a combo of energies but I am just trying to chat about the Tan and Tun Sao a bit. Certianly we must understand or find times when these two skills come into play from our own experiences and that is all I am trying to chat about.


So, any thoughts on stuff you have experiences with these? Any times when you find either coming out more often? Get what I am driving at?


Regards,

[Mr Punch]

If I am preempting, as I often hope to, I often use a tan over a low/retreating arm, to follow naturally into strikes and move int o the head.

If I am late and defensive, I often use tun... which is a shame, cos I'm not very good at it...

Prefer biu and jum to be honest... but horses for courses.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Jim,

As tun is one of our four core body methods, IME it is always "present" even when not in use (it's a part of our body-structure) and can be coupled with our tan sao or almost any other hand 'technique". If you're talking specifically about tun sao -- swallowing with the arms -- the appropriateness depends on the situation or conditions. As I see it, the opponent tells us how to defeat him: if he tells me tun sao, then I use tun sao; if not, I don't. If I choose one over the other, then I'm "imposing" which can only lead to resistance. TN

Terence

[Jim Roselando]

Hi guys,

Matt,

I also find the Tun coming out from being late but I find the body positioning brings out the swallowing effect the most.


Terence,


I agree with you. Just for the sake of conversation do you find yourself making more use of either a swallowing effect or sending effect with the Tan during sparring or chi sao?


Regards,

[t_niehoff]

Jim Roselando wrote:

Terence, I agree with you. Just for the sake of conversation do you find yourself making more use of either a swallowing effect or sending effect with the Tan during sparring or chi sao? JR

Tun and tao are two sides of the same coin (like yum/yueng) -- how can you have one without the other? TN

Terence

[Jim Roselando]

Hey TN,


Tun and tao are two sides of the same coin (like yum/yueng) -- how can you have one without the other? TN


Well, lets see if I can use an example. Ok! In the dummy when you slice down bong and then come up Tan twisting forward and out along the centerline that would be one example. Another would be if you did a Lim and Sun Punch up the middle against lets say a straight punch and the the second punch started to come in so your punching hand had to recieve with a twisting and some body angulation. I am just pulling these out of my head so I hope you know what I mean? For me the Yum Yeung effect is created by the body but the hands can sometimes have diiferent effects and that is all I am trying to chat about.


See ya,

Jim

[t_niehoff]

JR wrote:

In the dummy when you slice down bong and then come up Tan twisting forward and out along the centerline that would be one example. JR

Jim, the dummy is not application -- it is a form and a drill. As such, you can practice it any number of ways (your tan sao can sink, it can rise, it can swallow, it can spit, it can twist, etc.) and the more ways you practice it the better. My point is that how you do it in application will depend on what the opponent is doing. TN

Another would be if you did a Lim and Sun Punch up the middle against lets say a straight punch and the the second punch started to come in so your punching hand had to recieve with a twisting and some body angulation. I am just pulling these out of my head so I hope you know what I mean? JR

I think "what if" scenarios are essentially useless -- everything we do depends on too many different factors to include in any "scenario". WCK gives us an approach (that can be described with dap, jeet, chum, biu, chi and in other ways as well) toward fighting but isn't "micro-managed"; how we implement that approach depends on our skill level (and that of our opponent): there is no universal right way, there is only what is right for me in the moment. What works for you may not work for me, and the same is true in reverse. TN

For me the Yum Yeung effect is created by the body but the hands can sometimes have diiferent effects and that is all I am trying to chat about. JR

Tun as I understand it is a core body method, one which permits us to receive and store an opponent's force or pressure, and is always present (either being expressed or as a potentiality) -- without it, you're not doing WCK IMO. That same concept can also be expressed in the arm. The body and arm can work in conjunction or independently. Your question, as I take it, is like asking "do you tend to spit or swallow more" and that's like asking the spring "do you tend to be compressed or expanding". It depends on what the opponent is doing to the spring. If the spring is making a choice, then it is not acting as a spring. TN

Terence

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Terence,


Jim, the dummy is not application -- it is a form and a drill. As such, you can practice it any number of ways (your tan sao can sink, it can rise, it can swallow, it can spit, it can twist, etc.) and the more ways you practice it the better. My point is that how you do it in application will depend on what the opponent is doing. TN


Terence, I know its not application but I am just pulling stuff out of my head for chat. We all know we do not dictate what we are going to do and if anyone has that type of idea they dont understand WC. I could have said, If my opponent threw a right cross and my hands were down by my side and then I cut into it with a Tan etc.. This is an internet chat room so we need stuff to chat about.


I think "what if" scenarios are essentially useless -- everything we do depends on too many different factors to include in any "scenario". WCK gives us an approach (that can be described with dap, jeet, chum, biu, chi and in other ways as well) toward fighting but isn't "micro-managed"; how we implement that approach depends on our skill level (and that of our opponent): there is no universal right way, there is only what is right for me in the moment. What works for you may not work for me, and the same is true in reverse. TN

Terence, you are just repeating the same stuff and missing the simple chat. WC give us the tools to fight. We all know this. What if scenarios are only for internet chat. We do not try to think like one step sparing of Karate. During you own class do you make your students practice against Jab's, Crosses, Hook's, Single Leg Take Downs, etc.?

Tun as I understand it is a core body method, one which permits us to receive and store an opponent's force or pressure, and is always present (either being expressed or as a potentiality) -- without it, you're not doing WCK IMO. That same concept can also be expressed in the arm. The body and arm can work in conjunction or independently. Your question, as I take it, is like asking "do you tend to spit or swallow more" and that's like asking the spring "do you tend to be compressed or expanding". It depends on what the opponent is doing to the spring. If the spring is making a choice, then it is not acting as a spring. TN

My question is a something to chat about and nothing more. You are looking too deep into it. The body swallows the force. We all know this. That is the essence of Tun. I am asking something quite simple if you read it. What do you find coming out more often with you Tan shape hand? Nothing more or less. Very simple.


Regards,

[t_niehoff]

I understand your question and am sorry if you think I'm "looking too deep into it" (LOL! I'm rarely accused of that!). I just think that questions like "what do you use more -- tan or fook" (substitute any other hands) are essentially meaningless: we do what is appropriate for the moment and that is determined by the opponent. If you want to start converstation, you might begin with your assertion of "The body swallows the force. We all know this. That is the essence of Tun." IME most WCK practitioners don't understand that fundamental principle -- and certainly don't do it in application -- as they most often dodge force, either by shifting away from it or stepping (sidestepping). TN

Terence

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Terence,


Ok! I gotcha! Makes sense.

With force I can see a few things happening but certainly if one does not aborb it into the body it will not effect your opponent and be able to control the situation.

You can do a number of things and win but the limbs join and the body swallows is the root.


Gotta run,