Would you learn from a pacifist?

[Black Jack]

Would you learn from a teacher in your chosen system or your desired system if that teacher was a die hard pacifist?

The question was brought up in my mind because of a school I called a few days ago on a lark. That post is still on this page. To start off and be fair I will answer my own question with a resounding no.

Here are some of my thoughts on why. "One" of my main goals in undertaking a martial art/combatives program is the study of self preservation skills incase that dire day ever comes where I may need to use what I know to survive and win in a violent encounter. The key words being to survive and win. To do this IMO you need to cultivate a aggressive mindset so you can fight through the fear and pain of such an encounter with the only goal being that of victory. Victory being me still being able to breathe.

I believe a pacifist teacher would bring out the complete opposite in that goal for a student. Anybody who holds the doctrine of victimization to their heart would showcase this ideaology into their very training and thereby harm their students by turning themselves into the same kind of victim. Instead of a aggressive approach to their system they would create a fearfull approach. Confined in defensive thinking, second-guessing, and a end loss of functional fighting tools.

So their are some of my thoughts, I don't think pacifists are bad people, though I would consider them useless. Anybody who does not have respect nor care about themselves can hardly gather respect for the life of another.

Cheers,

[CrippledAvenger]

Depends. Was the person in question a converted pacifist who used to kick @ss, but later decided to "mend their ways", so to speak? Or have they never been in an altercation, period? I mean, one of the best boxing coaches I had back home was a Catholic priest who had boxed all the way through seminary. After he took the vows, he never fought anyone else, for obvious reasons.

just a little annecdote to start things off.

[Serpent]

You call a pacifist a victim and state that a pacifist is someone "who does not have respect nor care about themselves [so] can hardly gather respect for the life of another."

Just how fukked up are you, really!?

[Laughing Cow]

Yes, I would and I did learn from a Pacifist.
I think he used to fight in his youth a bit.

He asked every new student the following question:

"Why do you want to study style X under me?"
If the answer was to fight or for self-defense purpose he send them packing.

He said that he teaches style X and nothing more.
Funnily enough he produced a lot of students that used what he taught in real life successfully to defend themselves.

He might choose not to fight, but that does not mean that this should affect the student or mean that he has less to pass on than someone else.

FWIW, there are many kwoon and Dojo that forbid their students to fight outside their classes.

Cheers.

[Black Jack]

Coming from a rabid anti-us bigot like you I will just take that as a compliment. This from a guy who is about as warped and nepotistic as can be found on this forum.

IMO a die hard pacifist does not care about themselves. How can you care about and respect yourself if you will not protect yourself. An example, if a mans wife is being assualted and he will not fight back because he is a die hard pacifist and his doctrine holds dear that he shall hurt no other living creature, then he is more than worthless, he is borderline criminal.

You can not always handle everything in existance with kid gloves.

[joedoe]

I would learn from a pacifist if a) they had a history of fight experience and b) they were willing to teach their art to me in full, including all the applications of the techniques. A person's moral stance does not mean that they do not have the ability or knowledge.

I find your perception of pacifists very interesting. You view them as victims and not caring of their own well being. You think that they are pacifists out of fear. In my experience, a lot of pacifists are not victims and they definitely care about their own well being. They are also people who show a great deal of courage in taking their position of pacifism. To me the ones who choose violence as thefirst option are the ones consumed by fear.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Black Jack
...

IMO a die hard pacifist does not care about themselves. How can you care about and respect yourself if you will not protect yourself. An example, if a mans wife is being assualted and he will not fight back because he is a die hard pacifist and his doctrine holds dear that he shall hurt no other living creature, then he is more than worthless, he is borderline criminal.

You can not always handle everything in existance with kid gloves.

OK, I see your point. I guess there are varying levels of pacifism.

[Black Jack]

No one said to use violence as a first choice. Just that you have it as a choice. Being trained by a pacifist is not all about technique. IMO it is not about technique at all but the kind of mental tampering that enviroment may pass on to you. Forget techinque and think about the mental aspect.

Their are many degrees of pacifism.

[shaolin kungfu]

BlackJack, in the situation you described, a pacifist would call the police. Does this make him borderline criminal? Hardly. To say that a pacifist doesn't hold life in high regard is ridiculous. They hold life in higher esteem than do many people.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Black Jack
No one said to use violence as a first choice. Just that you have it as a choice. Being trained by a pacifist is not all about technique. IMO it is not about technique at all but the kind of mental tampering that enviroment may pass on to you. Forget techinque and think about the mental aspect.

Their are many degrees of pacifism.

See, I consider myself to be a pacifist, but I will defend myself if necessary. Now I would be happy to learn from a like-minded pacifist if they were willing to teach to fighting side of the art.

However, a die-hard pacifist would be a different matter. I would doubt that a hard-core pacifist would teach any of the fighting applications of an art, so unless you are happy to just learn the art for the hippy reasons (which I am not), then there would be no value in learning from them. You might as well go and take up dance/yoga and meditation.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Coming from a rabid anti-us bigot like you I will just take that as a compliment. This from a guy who is about as warped and nepotistic as can be found on this forum.


Is this directed at me? Do you even know what nepotistic means?



IMO a die hard pacifist does not care about themselves. How can you care about and respect yourself if you will not protect yourself. An example, if a mans wife is being assualted and he will not fight back because he is a die hard pacifist and his doctrine holds dear that he shall hurt no other living creature, then he is more than worthless, he is borderline criminal.

You can not always handle everything in existance with kid gloves.

Why do you assume that a pacifist will not fight? You are now talking about a "die hard pacifist" that will not even defend his own family. That's not pacifism.

You prove to be more ignorant by the day, BlackJack.

[Laughing Cow]

Actually a true extremist pacifist will never teach any form of MA as they abhor anything related to fighting and violence. Most of them won't even touch a gun or similar.

In my home-country if you can proove that you are a true pacifist you will not do your national service in the military but in another part of the goverments services (Postal, etc.)

Cheers.

[Black Jack]

No they don't.

If they cared as much about life they would fight for it. It's as simple as that.

A normal joe would call the police as well. If thats even a factor in this hypothectial situation. What if that is not a factor. Would the pacifist just sit their and die? Would he let his kids die? If so that is the doctrine of the mentally ill.

Pacifism within certain degrees is novocaine from taking responsibility.

[Black Jack]

How will I know if they will not fight?

I don't.

I am going along with the doctrine of pacifism to its extreme level and yes that was directed at you. I consider your judgement of me to be worthless. Everytime you open your mouth you sound like an elitest clown. The only one worse than you on this board is Xesball and that is not saying much:o

[Serpent]

So, do you know what nepotistic means?

You seem to have ignored my last post completely.

[Serpent]

And you sound like an ignorant redneck, but let's stick with what's posted, eh?

[Black Jack]

Stick with whats posted? Thats a laugh.

You have yet to stick with the original post topic let alone add anything of merit to the conversation except direct character insults.

But what else is new......

Coming from the land down under I would assume your neck should be pretty red.

[shaolin kungfu]

Pacifists usually don't believe in fighting because they believe life is to sacred to harm. This seems to be holding life in high regard.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Stick with whats posted? Thats a laugh.

You have yet to stick with the original post topic let alone add anything of merit to the conversation except direct character insults.

But what else is new......

Coming from the land down under I would assume your neck should be pretty red.

So I am a red neck too?

[shaolin kungfu]

yes.

[Serpent]

Dude, you read what you want to read. My posts originally picked apart your blatant misrepresentation of the word pacifist and you came back calling me a bigot.

Who's off topic?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
yes.

Why?

[Black Jack]

Who is off topic?

You.

Asking someone how f@cked up they are was not a valid attempt to pick apart my definition on pacifism. What it was is pretty easy to figure out.

My general "feeling" on pacifism is my own opinion but also still open to its different levels of definition. Something which was not brought up untell a few posts later with Joe.

The post was a question of would you train with a person who is a pacifist. In a direct example, I used a verison of those that go the extreme route, the definition of a person who "states" they are of that extreme nature.

Now who reads what they want to read.

As for nepotistic, you have to be high on reefer to think I have to answer any question posed by you, by nepotistic I mean baised in regards to ANY post concerning America, you seem to only see those posts through certain kinds of hate-filled glasses and thus show favortisim to one side of the game only and I honestly believe it is not out of anything logical but raw emotional hatred or jealousy.

Either way it gets old.

[joedoe]

Maybe the term you were looking for was parochial rather than nepotistic ;)

[shaolin kungfu]

Why?

Well your from australia, and according to blackjack, that's where rednecks come from.




I'm kidding, btw.

[Black Jack]

Joe,

Is it not hot down their? ;)

I did not say that by the way. It was a joking retort to a guy who loves to use that slang.

Serpent likes the word "red-neck". Even though I doubt he has a freakin clue as to what it really means. He watched to many reruns of the Dukes of Hazzard.

Serpent thinks anybody who is pro-freedom/pro-self defense is a redneck that or anybody who does not follow along with his own perfect political viewpoints on how the world functions.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Who is off topic?

You.

Asking someone how f@cked up they are was not a valid attempt to pick apart my definition on pacifism. What it was is pretty easy to figure out.


First of all I highlighted how you were using the word before I asked how fukked up you were. Maybe the wording was too cerebral for you to get the intent?



As for nepotistic, you have to be high on reefer to think I have to answer any question posed by you, by nepotistic I mean baised in regards to ANY post concerning America, you seem to only see those posts through certain kinds of hate-filled glasses and thus show favortisim to one side of the game only and I honestly believe it is not out of anything logical but raw emotional hatred or jealousy.

Either way it gets old.

Hmmm.

From dictionary.com:



nep·o·tism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (np-tzm)
n.
Favoritism shown or patronage granted to relatives, as in business.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[French népotisme, from Italian nepotismo, from nepote, nephew, from Latin neps, nept-. See nept- in Indo-European Roots.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
nepo·tist n.
nepo·tistic or nepo·tisti·cal adj.


:rolleyes:

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Joe,

Is it not hot down their? ;)

I did not say that by the way. It was a joking retort to a guy who loves to use that slang.

Serpent likes the word "red-neck". Even though I doubt he has a freakin clue as to what it really means. He watched to many reruns of the Dukes of Hazzard.

Serpent thinks anybody who is pro-freedom/pro-self defense is a redneck that or anybody who does not follow along with his own perfect political viewpoints on how the world functions.

Nope, right now we are deep into Autumn (fall for you Yanks :)). It is rather cool right now and it is going to get cooler soon :).

I know you were joking. And I know where the derivation of redneck comes from too :D

BTW I don't think Serpent hates the USA as such. I think he feels that when the USA does things in its own interests, such as defending its freedom or acting in what it defines as self defense, it often fails to consider how others might feel about that. Now I know that as a sovereign nation that is the right of the USA to behave like that, but eventually it is going to get up people's noses.

[Black Jack]

I still got favoritism in my slack definition joker. This is just a discussion forum you know. :rolleyes:

[Marky]

Hi all,

I took my definition of "pacifism" from Gandhi, so I could be talking about something different from you's guys. What I gathered from his teachings is, "to be a pacifist is to choose peace over violence. But you must know both in order to choose. A true pacifist lives in peace, but understands violence, and knows how to be violent. To be a pacifist because you do not want to recognize violence is simply cowardice."

From that standpoint, I would imagine that many martial artists are pacifists.

But really, if someone believes that violence of all types should be avoided like the plague, then why are they teaching a martial art? Even if it's only for health purposes, ALL MARTIAL ARTS, by definition, have some degree of a martial nature! Maybe I'm looking at it with too much of a "black and white" perspective?

[Mr Punch]

Hate to interrupt your *****fight kids, but lets go back to the topic.
:p

I would learn from a pacifist if I thought what he was teaching could get me out of a scrape. In fact, within reason, I wouldn't give a monkey's about my teacher's moral persuasions if I thought they could get me out of a scrape...

and no, I'm not going to further sidetrack the discussion by defining what I would think to be 'within reason', but suffice it to say, terrorists, child molesters, rapists et al would be out, and I have quit some schools because of the teacher's blatant ****phobia/sleazing on female students/and racism (but, mind you, their MA sucked too!!).

As to what's gonna get me out of a scrape, I've been in enough to have enough common sense to know when what I'm being taught its bloody useless.

And sure BJ, I can see your point, that you need to cultivate the aggressive mindset and survivalism to go with your technique, but that's why I train animal sometimes with my friends... the techniques that I've learned in the dojo... I don't necessarily think that if you don't train that way in the dojo, all of your training becomes useless.



BTW, I consider myself to be a pacifist in the way that Marky has just nailed. Cheers Marky! Good work sir. It doesn't exclude pulping someone who tries to **** with my family.


Lastly, Serpie, everyone knows what a nepot (TM) is: it's someone who BJ doesn't like, like you and the rest of you ilks you somnambulists...:rolleyes: :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Black Jack
I still got favoritism in my slack definition joker. This is just a discussion forum you know. :rolleyes:

That's a perfect example of your ignorance. So long as it vaguely fits because favourtism is in the definition. Even though the word is specifically about relatives and can't mean anything else?

Idiot.

Marky, great post.

[David Jamieson]

I would learn openly from anyone who knows their stuff whether they are a pacifist or not.

Someones philosophical beliefs don't have a lot to do directly with hard skill. A pacifist may very well know a martial art inside and out and be able to transmit it well thereby instilling the practice in his or her student.

It is limiting to deny yourself understanding something because of a preconception you hold.

I think presumption and preconception without ever understanding is a much worse decision to make in regards to any learning path.

You could learn just as much from someone who acts savagely (on one end of the spectrum) as you can from someone who is a thoroughly civil pacifist (on the other end of the spectrum).

cheers

[Mr Punch]

Is there an echo in here?!:D

...in here?!:D

OK, OK, nice extension to what I said :p but...


Kungie-baby
You could learn just as much from someone who acts savagely (on one end of the spectrum) as you can from someone who is a thoroughly civil pacifist (on the other end of the spectrum).

... you could learn savage beatdowns or civil knitting needle techniques...:rolleyes:

Not to say I disagree, but I know who I'd put money on to have the edge in mindset if not skills... whether the Blackjack (er, sorry, savage sociopath...!:D :p ) would be as efficient at passing on his skills/knowledge is a different question.

[David Jamieson]

you could learn savage beatdowns or civil knitting needle techniques

You could learn that 4 ounces will move 1000 pounds, so in essence, yes. :)

cheers

[David]

Marky, nice quote - I was trying to remember that one.

I imagine a pacifist MA practitioner could be a good thing if you think of martial arts in a slightly different way: your ideal pacifist MA would be like a fireman who doesn't start fires but sure as hell puts them out.

Pacifists are rarely aggressive and probably never initiate violent crime. Each pacifist in your vicinity reduces the potential threat to your person.

Aggression is the real issue IMO. It's like intent but has negative connotations in my mind. If you want another definition BJ, aggressors are troublemakers by definition; not at peace i.e. needing help. Sure, I train aggression and use the word but I don't live there.

-David

[Former castleva]

As for my idea,pacifism is indeed non-violent but hey,is not that what martial arts are supposed to be?
Besides,the original question was whether one would learn (MA one could assume) from one,I know I would.
If pacifists are considered to be passive-under-agression so to speak,then is it just me or is the whole logic flawed?
Why would he/she be teaching you (general "you") in the first place?
To "just turn the other cheek" can be translated in various ways but as for following the same doctrine,defensive war may be necessary to regain harmony.

[Cyborg]

Former Castleva, the quote "turn the other cheek" is often misquoted. Jesus was speaking to the hypocritical pharisees who were misinterpreting the "eye for an eye" law. That refers to the judicial system and didn't refer to individuals. ie, murder requires the death penalty, theft requires repayment. That was/is biblical law. He didn't mean you couldn't/shouldn't defend yourself. In one of His last commands to His disciples he says "if you don't have a sword, sell your extra cloak and buy one". The bible also says "he who does not take care of his family is worse than an infidel" and "love your neighbor as yourself". By that I take it that it is my duty to defend all who need it.

BTW, I've never been in a fight but have stopped several just by being ready and willing.

pac·i·fism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ps-fzm)
n.
The belief that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.

Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.
Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action.

According to that dictionary.com definition, there aren't levels of pacifism. (I kinda think it's like virginity, you've got it or you don't)

But the original q' was "would I study under one?" No. As I just pointed out they're opposed to all violence and martial arts is the art of war therefore...

[Cyborg]

JD, the word redneck has come to mean something other than it started as. It was originally applied to the roundheads under Oliver Cromwell who put on red scarves and vowed they wouldn't take them off until justice was done. But the common meaning of a sunburned neck is definitely more applicable in this case.:D And I'm probly more of a redneck than anybody else who has posted on this topic!:p

[Former castleva]

"Former Castleva, the quote "turn the other cheek" is often misquoted. Jesus was speaking to the hypocritical pharisees who were misinterpreting the "eye for an eye" law. That refers to the judicial system and didn't refer to individuals. ie, murder requires the death penalty, theft requires repayment. That was/is biblical law. He didn't mean you couldn't/shouldn't defend yourself. In one of His last commands to His disciples he says "if you don't have a sword, sell your extra cloak and buy one". The bible also says "he who does not take care of his family is worse than an infidel" and "love your neighbor as yourself". By that I take it that it is my duty to defend all who need it."

That´s what I thought.

[Cyborg]

OK, sorry... most people who whine "turn the other cheek" don't mean it like that.

[Royal Dragon]

I would learn from a pacifist if a) they had a history of fight experience and b) they were willing to teach their art to me in full, including all the applications of the techniques. A person's moral stance does not mean that they do not have the ability or knowledge.

Reply]
That's just it, a real paciFist would not be able to teach you how to fight as it would be against his moral code. He may very well have some sort of delusions of being a peaceful martial monk, and enjoy that fantasy wile he runs his forms school for hippy health and fitness, but if he is a true pacifist, he will not morally be able to train you in such a way as to prepare you for sudden violent brutality becasue he would have to expose himself to it in order to train you to deal with it.

You can't train someone to deal with something you yourself can't or won't deal with.


I am a very peaceful person, an I would try to find a peaceful solution whenever possible, but I am not above busting people up in the defence of myself, or my family. I also understand that violence has it's place, and I won't hide form it if it is presented to me.

I think Black Jack's idea of a pacifist is the bleeding heart, commie, liberals who are so against violence that they would just allow an attacker to pummle them rather than fight back in thier own defence (I have known these types). These types are abound in the US, and are a different breed from the general peaceful populace as I described myself to be part of above.

[MasterKiller]

Even the Buddha said we have a right to defend ourselves.

On another note, there was a married couple who joined our KF class. The woman was eager and aggressive, but the guy would absolutely not hit anyone. He refused to spar, and would not practice applications against a live opponent because he said it made his stomach turn to cause violence. However, they were both in the Army.

Go figure.

[Water Dragon]

My teachers are sadists, not pacifists. I like it that way.

[Black Jack]

I still don't think some people are getting the point. Of course everybody wants to take the french leave and avoid violence at ALL reasonable costs. To face violence when you have an escape route is not at all what I am talking about here.

Their are times when that escape route may not be an option. My point being that if you are learning your combative skills through a person who lives a pacifistic lifestyle, and by that I mean a lifestyle where they have to tell you about their pacifistic beliefs because it is so deep to them, that you may be doing more harm to yourself than good on a mental level, in terms to that specific goal.

Instead of a more aggressive approach in terms of mental programming you might take on a more fearfull approach through the focus of a strict defensive outlook. Instead of strike you think block. Pre-emptive options go out the window as instead of attacking when you have the chance you are waiting to be attacked. Let alone how that type of thinking may hamper your viewpoints on weapons and their role in a self-defense situation.

Serpent man you are an irritable little miscreant I'll tell you what, I have yet to ever see you put down a post topic regarding anything of martial intent. I guess you just get a kick out of being a *******.

Royal- Exactly! Those kind of people do exist. I will not pretend they dont for pc reasons.

[Badger]

Hardcore Pacifist = defeatist

[shaolinboxer]

Pacificsm as a preference is a virtue...but as an absolute it is a useless pile of fearful crizzap.

[Budokan]

Of course you can learn from a pacifist. In fact, I'd rather learn martial arts from a pacifist than from a dyed-in-the-wool crankjob who thinks that violence is the ONLY way to deal with any situation.

Pacifism doesn't mean you WON'T fight, it means you'd RATHER NOT fight. There's quite a distinction between the two. Uh, I mean for people who are capabable of higher rational thought...which leaves out quite a percentage of the population, sadly enough. Their idea of how to deal with any situation comes from sit-coms, Jerry Springer and the twisted ideals formed by their own disturbingly straight family tree... But then again that sometimes happens when your father is also your brother....

[quiet man]

The Dude: And, you know, he's got emotional problems, man.
Walter: You mean... beyond pacifism?
("Big Lebowski")

[Volcano Admim]

Well good spirited one you seem to understand what the true value of volcano but you makes mistakes when you say that someone from my academic caliber would AGRESSION obviously none of you grow in tough neightborhood, rich and spoiled watch a satelite disk dad pays i know you do today, i dont know you rich trian martial art for have dad pay per view for you UFC

[shaolin kungfu]

Can anyone make sense of what volcano admin just said?

[Serpent]

No one can ever make sense of anything Volcano Admim ever says.