Knees in the clinch.

[Mr Punch]

OK, so you've messed up all your wing chun and wound up in some kind of close clinch. Of course, the ideal is to step out somehow and regain structure, but you can't extricate yourself without compromising your structure further.

If you use your feet, you're gonna lose your balance, it's too close, it's too tangled, and there's no useful target. You can't use your hands or elbows, again too tangled, and your head can't get a useful target either.

You've probably all been there.

If you have, what's your response?

Personally, I like sticking my knees into his ribs.
I think it's wing chun.
It's the closest clear target. It flows like water. The knee technique maintains my centreline and balance by using the three-legs-to-kick principle.

OK, take me apart!:D

[yuanfen]

Depends on relative structure and balance. Have to feel and make sure that the opponent cannot use those 3 legs when you are lifting your knee- you could end up on your head.
But if you have the edge in timing- of course.

[tparkerkfo]

Hmmmm,

It sounds like your saying that there is nothing to do, what do you do? I think there is a point of no return where you have lost. Happens every time I met my sihings. LOL. I think there is a point at which counters are effective and you have a chance. If you act accordingly at this time, you can recover. However, if you wait too long, your in trouble.

In your above statement you mention that if you move your feet your in trouble. SO I am not sure how the knee to the ribs would work. I think one should learn to prevent having their structure and balanced attacked as well as how to recover. My teacher used to do various things where he pushed the elbow up and uprooted us. We would have to learn how to sink when he did this. But there was a point where we could not recover.

I think if your off balanced your attacks are going to be pretty useless. Remember the UFC, some guys can take a hell of a hit. Your not going to be able to deliver a lot if you have no base, balance, structre.

But, if you have a chance to use your knees, then do it. Knees to the ribs can work. Who even cares if it is wing chun. I don't think learn wing chun removes your right and ability to do what you can. Wing Chun is just a system of methods that help you fight. But your not bound to them.

Tom
________
Marijuana bubbler (http://bubblers.net/)

[yuanfen]

wujidude- i wpnder whther the "opponent" was a vegetarian- hard to tell from the pic :-

kuen- a wing chun person should not allow a muy thai guy to knee him. If it happens- back to learning wing chun 101.

[Kuen]

kuen- a wing chun person should not allow a muy thai guy to knee him. If it happens- back to learning wing chun 101.

Oh, I agree. However, it is much easier said than done. My statement was just meant to say that they throw knees all the time from the clinch and rarely lose balance so we (WCK) can do it too.

[Kuen]

wujidude- i wpnder whther the "opponent" was a vegetarian- hard to tell from the pic :-

I don't know about that but GM Fong and that Joy fellow looked like thugs! ;)

[yuanfen]

Leave "GM" titles to others. They might need it. Could be that "fellow" atleast knew some thugees in his time.
And all the time I thought wing chun was for gentlemen.:D

[fa_jing]

Actually, if I'm in a position to knee the opponent, I think that I've done something right! That's one of my main weapons to end a fight and I find this situation develops naturally from the closing tendencies of Wing Chun.


Joy - what strategies would Wing Chun use against the knee from a Muy Thai guy? Shaui Chiao has an interesting response which is to control the opponent's head and side, and step across so that his knee slides past your hips, then throwing the guy by reaping the opponent's standing leg. Wondering if Wing Chun approach would be something similar?

[Martial Joe]

It all depends on what position your in on how and where you knee them.

[yuanfen]

Fajing- the devil again is in the details and one size doesnt fit all.
But I will give some basic premises...

1. In general muay thai guys structure training is different from wing chun... the former are more top heavy and therefore use their arms for leveraging their leg work.

2. Wing Chun horse ygkym when done right is more bottom heavy-
more difficult to topple over. When you add subtle micro-footwork you have a mountain that moves and hands like lightning. The key is the training rather than just technique-(if this then that sort of thing) Thats the goal anyway and with good training and practice its achievable.

3. So if the MT guy is trying to knee you-DONT go back- for starters. Jamming the force before it reaches full power is WC 101. If your horse is good you can move him (with the help of feeling) in his weakest direction... while doing hand combinations--- lan sao and a groin punch aint so bad.

Its not just "theory" BTW. But each situation and person is different.

[KenWingJitsu]

lol...here come the theorists.....:D

[yuanfen]

and the wiseguys:D ::D

[KenWingJitsu]

exactly.:rolleyes:

[yuanfen]

kwj-
rather than using labels (theorists) wouldnt it be more constructive to answer fajing's question from your perspective?

[wingchunalex]

(never mind everyone, i totally misunderstood the question I think, so disregard my post. lol. :) )


if you are that tied up, they are probably that tied up too. so if they aren't putting you in any painful locks or cutting off your air, then just relax and wait for them to do somethings. they have to do something. if neither of you are getting anywhere then you are safe. its a stale mate. once they change position you can take advantage of the transistion period by being patient and relaxed.

[KenWingJitsu]

Well, yuan fen when I see statements like
a wing chun person should not allow a muy thai guy to knee him.
I kinda feel disinclined to add to that when forum member Kuen said it so eloquently.

The bottom line is stuff happens. Muay thai guys are dangerous with knees. To deny that is....well..........Denial. Best way to defend that is learn the defese for it. Learn the MT defenses, modify your WC defenses. pratice against a guy trying to knee your head off.

[Mr Punch]

Thanks Tom, Joy and especially Fajing.

My personal take is it's a nice position to be in. Not something I'd aim for like Fajing suggests, as although I'm aiming to close, I'm hoping to have rocked him pretty solidly with my strikes, elbows and butt on the way in, closing for a head control/takedown... but a comfortable position nonetheless. He can't get me either.

Alex, why wait if you can knee them and cause some damage? Especially if he's in the same position...


Tom
In your above statement you mention that if you move your feet your in trouble. SO I am not sure how the knee to the ribs would work.
Sorry Tom, I was meaning, that the best uses for feet in WC are ankle/foot stamps or stop kicks, shin scrapes/kicks, knee kicks and side knee stomps, and if you're really in a safe range, nut/thigh kicks.

In a close clinch, if you move your feet at low range, you're gonna be at risk of unbalancing yourself (three legs or no) cos chances are you'll wind up on his foot/jammed... so low kicks are gonna compromise your structure.

Knee kicks to the front require a greater range. Side knee stomps will require you partly wrapping your leg around his, putting you at serious risk of a takedown (assuming you're not trying to do that yourself). And the nuts are out: too high, and he's gonna be guarding them like, well, the crown jewels.

So stepping off or in slightly (with WC footwork of course!:D) and your knees would seem like a legitimate option, as all the closest targets are unavailable/covered.


Of course I agree, it's not the ideal structure we train for.

[Mr Punch]

KenWingJutsuBest way to defend that is learn the defese for it. Learn the MT defenses, modify your WC defenses. pratice against a guy trying to knee your head off.
Agree completely.

And sorry, I should have clearer in my last paragraph of the first post: of course this is a ****ing theoretical question, this is a discussion forum, not a kwoon!:D

I use this technique so I know it's effective, I was just wondering if any of the more seasoned WC heads would be able to point to it being acceptible in WC theory, kuen kits and such.


Originally posted by Mat
If you have, what's your response?

Personally, I like sticking my knees into his ribs.
I think it's wing chun.
It's the closest clear target. It flows like water. The knee technique maintains my centreline and balance by using the three-legs-to-kick principle.
Wing chun?

[yuanfen]

kwj-

Of course MT guys are dangerous. Nothing I said contradicts the dangers from MT knees.
Best not to get to that stage.

Where you and I differ perhaps due to different personal histories is on learning MT defenses against the knee and modifying WC accordingly.

I think "adaptation" rather than memorized or technique based wing chun is always built built into my approach to wing chun.

BTW- Fairtex used to have a big MT camp here and I have seen good MT in Bangkok and I have actually worked with some MT guys.

I will be away for a couple of days doing wing chun out of town - so I wont see responses if any . Cheers.

[namron]

Have you tried targeting knees to the oponents thigh (inside and outside) whilst in the clinch, also driving your own elbow into the top of your oponents rising knee is also an effective counter if you can manage it.

[fa_jing]

To the first part of your question, yes. Good tool.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Mat
OK, so you've messed up all your wing chun and wound up in some kind of close clinch. Of course, the ideal is to step out somehow and regain structure, but you can't extricate yourself without compromising your structure further.


Find your structure, even in the clinch. Many gifts will arise. Don't think in terms of technique, it's too late now, and that's probably how the situation arose. Constantly seek your structure, even in the worst of binds.

[yuanfen]

Hey- Enter the Whip- you make sense!

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hey- Enter the Whip- you make sense! The devil is in the details!

[yuanfen]

Enter the Whip: True!

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip


Find your structure, even in the clinch. Many gifts will arise. Don't think in terms of technique, it's too late now, and that's probably how the situation arose. Constantly seek your structure, even in the worst of binds.

Nice point :) .

Missed the question.

The question was, who thinks knees to the ribs can be 'pure' wing chun? Is there anything in your theory/Kuen Kits to back it up?

Sorry, wasn't clear enough.

[KenWingJitsu]

A knee strike to anywhere is in Wing Chun, as it is in Muay Thai, as it is in Karate, Kung fu etc etc. Wing Chun is a striking art.

[yuanfen]

KWJ- absolutely. Mat- why would you need a kuen kuit to use the knee?

[Daredevil]

Okay, I've been clinched ...

Nevertheless, I try to maintain as a good structure as I can and most definately I'll be trying to dominate the clinch. This is very important. I can play this game too. Get my hands locked behind his neck, elbows down and on the centerline, and stay inside his hands, keeping them outside in a weaker position. Then I press my structure into him and take away his stability if he tries to knee me. Then I knee him, dropping my weight onto his neck to use my hands to drive him into my knee as it comes up. Maybe I'll try to trip him and a) get the hell out of there b) calm the situation or c) mount him and slam his head into the pavement.

That's the game plan, and how I approached it when I still did WT. I'd use pretty much the same approach now, but I'd use the oppoturnity, being on the inside in the clinch, to put in a few Baji elbows into his solar plexus as well.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by yuanfen
KWJ- absolutely. Mat- why would you need a kuen kuit to use the knee?

Didn't say I needed one. Asked if anyone knew any.

I started this thread with a request for your opinions on what one should do in this situation, with a fairly heavy theoretical bent at the end, as this is a discussion board and not a kwoon, so obviously (I thought) asking for some clarification from the classics. Then, I thought I had clarified my original intention.

For the last time, don't get me wrong: knees in the clinch;

I use them,:)

I like them,:)

I am good at them,:)

I don't see them as being anything other than part of WC or any other good striking system...:)

Now, for the love of Mary, does anyone have any kuen kits/traditional advice about the use of the knee (you know, from your sifus if you're not above remembering who taught you before you became the latest sliced bread!) regarding the use of the knees to the ribs? Especially in a clinch...

:rolleyes:

:D

Please...:)

BTW, Daredevil, thank you. Nice explanation.

[yuanfen]

good enough for me- strike when you should- dont strike
when you shouldnt.

yuanfen Implications-

1. When you sense an opening for the knee- use it.

2. When you dont sense it- dont.

3. If your senses are bad- pray- maybe on your knees.
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[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Mat
Nice point :) .

Missed the question.

The question was, who thinks knees to the ribs can be 'pure' wing chun? Is there anything in your theory/Kuen Kits to back it up?

Sorry, wasn't clear enough. My apologies...
Yes, it is pure Wing Chun. It's in the forms. It's in all the forms. It is most obvious in the Chum Kiu.