mind your language..

[captain]

why is it necessary to retain the chinese language when
a westerner practices wing chun.not the name wing chun,
but tan,fuk,bong etc.from my first lessons it would have
been far easier to say palm up [tan] ,cross [bong].if you
can see my point here at all.of course it's all very well to
fire the response."well,it is a chinese art ,after all".but
when we did the "method" at drama school,we dumped
the russian and used english,though the source info was
russian.you see my point?a new western dictionary if you
will.and perhaps not just for wck.

russ.

[black and blue]

It's probably not 'necessary' to use the Chinese, after all, if we talk about Bong Sau we then go on to explain its dynamics and application in English. I'm not sure but I think at Autodefence in the UK they only use English expressions for the movements.

But personally, I like the Chinese words for what we do. I think that even at Autodefence they refer to the art as 'Wing Chun'. Those who speak fluent Chinese will also no doubt explain how the words themselves have multiple meanings and therefore concisely sum up the actions.

Oh, and...

It is a Chinese art, after all.

:)

[swordsoul]

yeah i know whatcha mean. in fencing, everything is (supposed to be) french. AFter about 3 years you get used to that.

It's hilarious (at least to me) to hear my sifu go "how is your Si Lim Tau (or something!!!!) going? and i'll go, uh... the block thing? he'll go "no the form." oh it's going great!

do your pak sau drill?
my what?
Blocking?
oh yeah--that.

Thank god it's called "5-star..."

as my friend quipped: "you can't Tan a fireball....."

(Kioken, Hadouken, and so on lolol!! All words for "screaming balls of chi" eh in japanese of course)

matt

[t_niehoff]

The terminology comes from our ancestors and was chosen, not haphazardly, but very deliberately to convey important ideas. They spoke chinese and used chinese words and expressions, some of which are very nuanced, to explain and describe what they were doing. And by trying to get a full understanding of what they were saying, we can get a better glimpse into their mindset. If we rely on english translations, we may not get the full idea or, as many of the english translations are so often simply incorrect, we will get the wrong idea altogether. For example, tan does not mean "palm-up hand" and bong does not mean "cross" as you indicate -- both are simply wrong translations and both give the wrong idea of the principle being expoused. TN

Terence

[yuanfen]

Each to his own. But IMO the Chinese terms have more multifacted meanings than simple translations.

Also depends on who you are learning from and the communication patterns involved.

[reneritchie]

It's not. You could learn in English fine. There are only 2 reasons you may need Cantonese:

1) If your sifu is Cantonese, and can much better relay the art in his/her native language. You can still make do, but it will take more work on both parts to transmit the art, especially the details.

2) The art is Cantonese. It was devised and developed by the Cantonese mind, and expressed that way for generations. If you're interested in the art beyond just technical/conceptual fighting methodology (and some are, the way some study medieval armor technology or ancient Mayan ruins), Cantonese will give you insight far beyond what you could otherwise get.

Tan Sao = Palm Up Arm is fine and will get most people far enough.

Those with interest who understand Cantonese will realize Tan does NOT = Palm Up Arm, but is "dispersing" or "spreading out", etimologically "seabirds dispersing in a search for food when the land is dry".

Palm Up Arm gives you one level of understanding. Tan gives you greater insight into the nature of the force devised, and applied.

It will also help eliminate the "why?" syndrome, and help with the "aha!" condition ;)

[sticky fingers]

Some people really just can't be fooked

[captain]

in that case then,if it goes from chinese to english,is something
lost in the translation.like uk irony completely lost on the
americans!is something either diluted for purposes of
instructing in another language,or a mind set?if so,this could
account for some of the anxiety some western wck people
have?

russ

[blackbird]

I agree that it is not totally necessary to speak cantonese in order to learn to use wing chun, but if you want to understand the deeper meanings of the techniques and the nuances, then it helps. You cant stop and knowing the translations of the words, though. I have found as I began to learn the language that many times two words may mean the same thing on the surface - have the same one word definition- but when you look at the radicals, the individual characters that make uop the word, the word itself tells a little "story" that can give you a deeper understanding.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Palm Up Arm gives you one level of understanding. Tan gives you greater insight into the nature of the force devised, and applied. Well said Rene. The nature of each hand, tan, bong or fuk is well defined within the art. Trying to boil things down to more "common language" can result in a loss of the finer points.

An added advantage is that when discussing Wing Chun with others who may not have the same mother tongue, you can use the terms and have a common understanding. Let's face it, nobody asking anybody to learn Cantonese here. It's like many other things in life, be it a sport and art or whatever, there is a specific vocabulary that is associated with it. Those who participate or follow it closely should learn and understand the more subtle distinctions of that vocabulary.

Matrix

[wingchunalex]

I like to use the chinese in talking and with notes just because it is shorter. tan sau is shorter and easier to say than palm up block or dispersing hand. yee jee kim yeung ma is easier to say than character two goat restraining stance.

I think the chinese terms are part of the heritage of wing chun, so i think they should be known or one should at least have them in notes to refer to even if they aren't used day to day.

using the english isn't bad. I think its just personal decision. I myself get frustrated when reading buddhist terms in the pali and sanscrit cause they are so long and hard to pronounce, and the english is much easier to remeber and say. so I think using the english terms for wing chun is no mortal sin or anything.

[canglong]

Hi captain,

If you put that question directly to a wing chun instructor that speaks cantonese, I would be interested in the answer as well.

[desertwingchun2]

Captain - The first link has a good answer about halfway down the page. The second link I thought you might like to try sometime.


http://home.vtmuseum.org/terminology/index.php


http://zhongwen.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?yinghan=element&framed=yes

-David

[foolinthedeck]

captain:

like uk irony completely lost on the americans

what? americans dont understand irony?

[yuanfen]

Ironically, they do!!!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Ironically, they do!!!
Not me! :p

I believe that Wing Chun can be taught in English or any other language, but I like the Cantonese idioms, and though I have trouble with the language think that it is worth the effort.

Regards,

[foolinthedeck]

seriously,
at what point does using the chinese terminology become just like any other jargon the way that lawyers for example try to appear superior by knowing more 'words' or mechanics or any group.

i think some people use the chinese terms to show off.

[OdderMensch]

at what point does using the chinese terminology become just like any other jargon the way that lawyers for example try to appear superior by knowing more 'words' or mechanics or any group.

At the point where they can niether desribe nor demonsrate knowledge of the terms other than the term itself.
People use many things to show off, musscles, speed, stories of past (or imagined) glory, but it is normaly very easy to spot these people.

Rene- thank you for the info on the entomology of tan, now I have something else to relate a "flock of seagulls" to other than the haircut :D

[yuanfen]

I dont think that dictionary definitions help anywhere near being shown and corrected on tan.

I can see some folks calling tan - number one palm or whatever.

I prefer using the term tan- recognizing that the details of the
motion will vary from school to school.

long live anarchy in the kung fu world.

Skill rather than the cookie cutter lives!!

[captain]

desert thank you for the http's.

i guess from further looking, since many of the chinese
words are only one word descriptions...bong..fuk...tan...etc
it doesnt really matter.

[Alpha Dog]

Westerners are fools! Their minds are too small to grasp the complexities of the Chinese language and philosophy. Silly barbarians, you think you can learn WC but you can't!!

[yuanfen]

The return of the Alpha Dog- hurrah!!