Would you learn from a maniac? [Archive]

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Kung Lek

Would you study with someone who was prone to fits of aggresiveness?

I don't, but I would. My main Economics instructor in college was pretty much known as a drunk and a womanizer. But wow, could he explain economic cycles and their contributing factors. I went to him to learn economics, not morals

Would you study with someone who constantly and consistently made the point of "no pain no gain" and then proceeded to strike willing volunteers with force?

I think this is a necesary part of training. The types of force developed in the CMA are different than boxing style punches. And there's more than one way to deliver force. If you want to be able to do it, you have to feel it.

Or how about the guy who thinks that violence is always the answer and solution to problems?

Violence is never the solution. Sometimes though, it is unfortunately the only option.
[/B]

Now maybe we can back to such on topic posts as George W Bush and the Power Rangers :D

norther practitioner

05-02-2003, 07:59 AM

No, I would not take one of your classes Kung Lek....:D

Seriously, you need to learn what you can and take from whatever experiences you have, but I thought that was rhetorical here by now :)

ewallace

05-02-2003, 08:00 AM

If I lived in a town with two schools, and one was like the above described, and the other was a "when attacker throws a right overhand punch, you step back, trap the fist in between your chest.......dam.n look at that beautiful lady bug, let's catch it" type school, I would defintely choose the former.

David Jamieson

05-02-2003, 08:03 AM

If you want to be able to do it, you have to feel it.

I don't really agree with the sentiment of this statement when it is used so broadly.

I don't have to taste dog crap to know I'm not gonna like it. :D

I also don't believe you have to have your teeth knocked out to learn how to knock teeth out.

My point is, Kung Fu is Time consuming to get halfway good at. The slowness of the process is what makes it a success on the path.

A short temper, and aggressive nature are not quality traits imo of anyone from Kungfu teacher to chem prof. It does not fit well with a safe learning environment.

The school of hard knocks has no instructors with the exception of the reality of the situation.

cheers

ewallace

05-02-2003, 08:08 AM

My point is, Kung Fu is Time consuming to get halfway good at. The slowness of the process is what makes it a success on the path.

That me be okay for some, possibly even me. But if someone is wanting to learn how to defend themselves, it does them no good to study an art that takes a many years to actually use if they get killed or paralyzed after a year of training by another person who has fought for real several times.

A short temper, and aggressive nature are not quality traits imo of anyone from Kungfu teacher to chem prof. It does not fit well with a safe learning environment.
They are usually the traits of an attacker. If you cannot meet the attacker with an equal to greater amount of violence you will lose.

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Kung Lek

I don't really agree with the sentiment of this statement when it is used so broadly.

I don't have to taste dog crap to know I'm not gonna like it. :D

I also don't believe you have to have your teeth knocked out to learn how to knock teeth out.

Well, you need to apply a little common sense to the statement. The things you are describing, you don't even need the CMA for.

You DO have to taste short power before you can learn to issue it.

You DO need to be knocked on your @ss by stance alone before you can understand why we train stance

You DO need to run into a fist before you can understand how yielding and leading work in a fighting situation

You do not have to get hit in the face to understand that getting hit in the face will most likely hurt.

David Jamieson

05-02-2003, 08:09 AM

As an addendum.

A total flake is not exactly the best person to learn martial arts from either. :D

ladybug catching can develop you hand eye coordination don't you know?

cheers

ewallace

05-02-2003, 08:10 AM

They make for good eating when mixed with Jack Daniel's grilling sauce. Come to think of it everything tastes good with JD grilling sauce.

David Jamieson

05-02-2003, 08:15 AM

They are usually the traits of an attacker. If you cannot meet the attacker with an equal to greater amount of violence you will lose.

This is a common misconception of a situational scenario.

There are a hundred ways to neutralize the situation without ever striking.

Let's also not forget that your attacker is quite nervous to begin with, thereby clouding any ability they may have versus your acquired skill through training.

Self defense is not the whole point of "Kung Fu", it is there, but it is not the totality of the meaning.

Basic self defence cannot be learned in a short period of time. You require practice time+ learning time in order to understand even basic self defence. Most people don't get the fundaments of it in anything less than a year or so and that's an accelerated program!

Any body who wants to master themselves will not do so in a short period of time. It takes years of practice, but the results are wholly worth it.

cheers

MasterKiller

05-02-2003, 08:19 AM

I don't, but I would. My main Economics instructor in college was pretty much known as a drunk and a womanizer. But wow, could he explain economic cycles and their contributing factors. I went to him to learn economics, not morals

Yeah, but would you ask this guy for relationship advice? Your relationship with your economics instructor is out of context because his behavior is not related to the subject matter; where as a martial arts instructor's aggressiveness would be related to the subject matter he is teaching.

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 08:22 AM

Of course not Masterkiller. But I also would never think to ask my teacher what I should do if someone insults me in a bar.

ewallace

05-02-2003, 08:25 AM

Basic self defence cannot be learned in a short period of time.
Gotta disagree there. I guess it depends on what you define as a short period of time, which to me is one year or less. If after one year, you are in no better position to defend yourself, you are wasting time.

There are a hundred ways to neutralize the situation without ever striking.
I am referring to a situation has gone into the action stage. I don't hug people who are trying to take my head off. Nor am I worried about what damage I may cause them...at that time.

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 08:31 AM

Back to the subject of being hit.

One of the guiding philosophies in my class is that we get hit harder every class than we will in the street. Therefore, we have nothing to fear in a fight. I think the Chinese word is something like "Ning". It translates to the ability to endure suffering.

It works. Fa Jing and I were sparring in my back yard one day and as I went in for a lifting throw, he clocked me between the shoulder blades a few times with downward elbow strikes. I didn't even feel it. (Of course Fa Jing did find my weak spot, but I'm sure that info can stay a secret just between us. Right Keith?

I asked my teacher about this and he replied, "Well Larry, you're used to being thrown and hit hard in class. Why do you think that would bother you?"

It may sound brutal, but it works. And no, you don't get hit from day one. You get built up to it for about a year.

Black Jack

05-02-2003, 08:57 AM

Basic self defense can not be learned in a short amount of time

Totally disagree. That is a misconception if I ever saw one.

Lets also not forget that your attacker is quite nervous to begin with, thereby clouding any ability they may have verus your acquired skill through training

Another big misconeption as it assumes you know the attacker and his mindstate. That every attacker is the same which is far from the truth. There are people out their who could kill you brutally without a second thought on the moral aspect of their decision. Prison is full of them.

You seem to be mixing up preceived skill with grim determination.

Cyborg

05-02-2003, 09:56 AM

"I don't have to taste dog crap to know I wouldn't like it" Ahh, that's just 'cuz you're prejudiced against it to begin with! You need to learn to have an open mind.:p

David Jamieson

05-02-2003, 09:58 AM

bj-

are you saying you know of some way to bring a person to proficiency from a martial standpoint in less than a year?

I'd have to call shenanigans on that one. Most folks even after a year of solid training are still sorely lacking in the ability to defend themselves in a real life or even just a sparring situation.

Also, the common thread of the attacker is that they are setting you as prey. THat's all you need to know, to know where to begin. The situation will unravel itself.

Agressiveness and likemindedness to the attacker will not defend you from a sucker punch or a superior method of attack, such as a blunt object, knife or firearm.

To tell someone they will be ready to defend themselves after a short period of time is misleading and in the majority of cases an outright lie. Unless of course you are teaching them to sprint :D

cheers

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 10:15 AM

Traditional Shuai Chiao gives fighting ability in about 1 year
Traditional Xing Yi is about 2 or 3
BJJ can do it in about 6 months

*provided you train hard that is*

MasterKiller

05-02-2003, 10:22 AM

BJJ can do it in about 6 months
*provided you train hard that is*

and, provided, you both happen to be wearing a Gi and standing on a rubber mat, and the person you are fighting doesn't have any friends around.

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 10:30 AM

The bit about the gi is just not true.

No art's gonna save you from 3 guys intent on taking your head off. Unless you really believe what's in the Hong Kong movies that is.

ewallace

05-02-2003, 10:34 AM

Most folks even after a year of solid training are still sorely lacking in the ability to defend themselves in a real life or even just a sparring situation.

Maybe in your style or school.

Do you actually think that someone with zero self defense skills would have zero improvement after 12 months of say...boxing? You are telling me that if you gave someone 2 punches and 2 kicks, and drilled nothing but those two, and practiced them against live targets that hit back, that a person would be no more situated to defend themselves?

Stacey

05-02-2003, 10:46 AM

no art will prepare you for multiple opponents?

Thats BJJ propaganda that I used to believe. Multiple opponents requires a different focus, but in some ways it can be easier. Get a back and you have a human shield. Throw one into another. I've done a lot of training for this with san shou gear and often the attackers can be made to hit each other, especially if you have any internal training and can move your dan tien.

Ba Gua and Choy Li Fut are pretty well known for taking out multiple opps. Besides even karate people do it.

Ground skills are important, knowing how to fight multiple opponents from the ground is especially important, but their is no more reason to believe gracie statistics than their is fearing a death touch.

To train for multiples circle drills with random direction focus mits are good as well as one step application training from two people doing any one attack at the same time. It gets you to improvise.

Kung Fu isn't poetry....is freestyle rap.

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 10:58 AM

In February, my teacher gave a seminar on multiple attackers. We did a drill where we were surrounded by our classmates. They would attack at will. we had to break out the circle and touch the wall. We could do whatever we wanted, just half power.

Out of 12-15 of us, 2 made it out clean. Most got pulled to the floor. I made it out btut then got mobbed. I ended up with a fat lip, one guys eye swelled, one got a bloodied nose, etc.

What if we were playing for keeps?

MasterKiller

05-02-2003, 11:02 AM

1 against 15 is ludicrous.

1 against 2 or 3 is different. We regularly spar in 1 vs 2 and 1 vs 3 situations, with the goal being to escape from the situation. It can be done.

SaMantis

05-02-2003, 11:03 AM

on the original question ...

... hitting a student hard or not hitting hard is not really the issue IMO, it's the instructor's level of control.

If he's going to body-slam them, hit full-force, aim for vital points, fine, but it's his responsibility as the teacher to make sure he doesn't cause serious injury to his students while trying to make a point. For example, striking an inexperienced student full-force in a vital area is going to result in less of a teaching experience and more likely a hospital visit.

So an instructor is most effective if he can control his emotions & aggressiveness, if he knows the experience and abilities of his students, and if he respects their ability/inability to react to and/or learn from his teaching. If he can't do that, he shouldn't be teaching.

KC Elbows

05-02-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
In February, my teacher gave a seminar on multiple attackers. We did a drill where we were surrounded by our classmates. They would attack at will. we had to break out the circle and touch the wall. We could do whatever we wanted, just half power.

Out of 12-15 of us, 2 made it out clean. Most got pulled to the floor. I made it out btut then got mobbed. I ended up with a fat lip, one guys eye swelled, one got a bloodied nose, etc.

What if we were playing for keeps?

Not disagreeing with your assessment, WD, but how many attacks occur where 15 people can get position, much less 4?

However, I agree, a mob is deadly.

Stacey

05-02-2003, 11:20 AM

ok...I meant 2 or 3. 15 is different. But I certainly think a striking style that focused on rooted footwork and internal slippery wiggliness will defenitly increase your chances.

In my experience once you get higher numbers you end up using far more circles and quick dehibilitating shots.

I honestly believe I could get through 5 untrained using nut/neck/eye shots and body controls, locks and breaks. 7-10 and its still possible, but I would still have to depend on my iron body training because I would be getting hit a lot.

WD..what other multiple opponent drills do you do? What can the guy who is getting pulled on do to defend?

It sound similar to point sparring or slap boxing with a grappler. They don't acknowlege the pulled punches or kicks, but then think they are kind because they got the mount. Real punches and kicks tend to level the playing field.

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 11:20 AM

You are correct KC. During the whole drill, I don't recall more than 3 people actually taking the guy down. Most of the time, when I was playing bully, I would just sit back and watch.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying that most who claim they can do it can't. I know I couldn't at this point.

Merryprankster

05-02-2003, 11:46 AM

Actually Kung Lek, what Black Jack was saying was much simpler--learning to fight well takes time. Learning self defense is more about situational awareness and not putting yourself in bad situations.

He may or may not be disagreeing with you about how long it takes to fight well, but he was definitely disagreeing with you about your definitions.

Robinf

05-02-2003, 11:55 AM

Each class needs a leader who can think above the din and have control over the class to stop the fights when they do, inevitably, get out of hand. The teacher needs to be the one who is collected and cool headed during class.

Being a hothead doesn't make you a good teacher. Being aggressive doesn't make you a good fighter. You can be the most aggressive person on the block and still get your clock cleaned.

Everyone can get lucky and everyone can get unlucky. Being aggressive or even good has nothing to do with winning a fight.

I will admit after getting my first black eye, I hardly notice when I get hit in the face and keep fighting, but that doesn't make me a good fighter and that doesn't mean I'll make it out alive. It just means I can take a punch.

ewallace

05-02-2003, 11:57 AM

I will admit after getting my first black eye, I hardly notice when I get hit in the face and keep fighting
Which is why contact is necessary.

norther practitioner

05-02-2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by ewallace

Which is why contact is necessary.

It is interesting to watch actually, people going through that initial fear.
Most people are soooo afraid of getting punches thrown toward their face, even many who "train."

MasterKiller

05-02-2003, 12:21 PM

I've never met a chick that could take a solid punch from a man.

Merryprankster

05-02-2003, 12:25 PM

My fiancee can! She was sparring with a 200+ lbs thai boxer that got frustrated during sparring so he whacked her with a left hook. She spun with it and landed a hard ass back kick. Hee-hee.

She will freely admit, however, that he would have mauled her shortly thereafter. :p

dezhen2001

05-02-2003, 12:27 PM

my gf was sparring with a guy who does some MT/kickboxing and he hooked her hard in the jaw, she hit him with a back kick just above the nutz :)

MP: gals like this are a rare breed - we just have to keep training so were at least equal to them eh? :D

dawood

MasterKiller

05-02-2003, 12:28 PM

Sure, with gloves on. But when it comes to an actual punch, full power, with no gloves, I've yet to see a chick that could stand the punishment.

Barring 200-lbs bulldog chicks, in which case, they don't really count as chicks.

Merryprankster

05-02-2003, 12:37 PM

I guess I'll not go into how gloves let you hit harder :D We'll just leave it at that cause I think we're gonna disagree...:p

I know she has sparred bareknucks at her old Karate school, but don't know how hard.

Robinf

05-02-2003, 12:51 PM

My first black eye I received was by an axe kick while wearing shoes and no gear (that's how we spar in kung fu). Fortunately, my eye didn't swell up, but I was stunned and even don't remember the few seconds after it. After a few more seconds I shook my head and went back to sparring. I could see that I would pretty easily have been creamed.

The second one, I just go recently, was a pretty decent punch.

I don't know if I'll be able to take an axe kick the way I took the punch, but at least I wasn't jarred by the punch at all.

That still, however, does NOT make me a good fighter and doesn't mean I'll win the fight. Just means I can take a punch in the eye.

ewallace

05-02-2003, 12:54 PM

But if that had occured, say in a dark alley somewhere, you probably would have been up the brown creek no?

MasterKiller

05-02-2003, 12:56 PM

shoes and no gear (that's how we spar in kung fu)

your Sifu must have outrageous insurance rates

Nick

05-02-2003, 01:01 PM

It depends. If it just stings or it's just a bruise, then it's good. But if they give a concusion, break a bone, etc., you're not going to learn much other than that guy is a *******.

Later...

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 01:04 PM

There's a difference between being hurt and being injured.

MasterKiller

05-02-2003, 01:11 PM

Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.

Black Jack

05-02-2003, 01:34 PM

Robin- Aggression is PARAMOUNT to self surivival.

Here is a morbid example, and lets all forbide, lets say you were putting your groceries away in the back of your car trunk one evening, kinda blind to everything going on around you as you have a lot on your mind, maybe a very close family member of yours is really sick and you have been with them at the hospital all day, so your only thoughts are on your sick friend and getting some groceries into the fridge before the store closes. While stashing away the groceries into your trunk you are suddenly and violently seized by two men who are attempting to drag you towards a running van which was parked behind your car but you failed to notice.

Now don't you think aggression would play a MAJOR role in your fight to escape from your situation? Would you not bite, claw, strike, kick, grapple with all your inner animal to get free?

BTW- When I say aggression I really mean controlled aggression. Uncontrolled aggression is anger. When it is controlled you can direct it.

Kung Lek-

I will say this and everybody has heard the cliche before. It's the man or woman and not the system. I don't care if you are a 20 year hardened shuai chiao sifu with the greatest lineage in the world. This veteran of the martial arts could one day cross paths with the wrong 46 year old overweight accountant who has never been in more than one or two fights in his whole life and get his ass handed to him.

But on the very next day that hardened shuai chiao sifu could kick the overwieght accountants ass. It's the nature of confrontation. Their are no absolute certainties with anything. You train the best you can and you can only hope it can improve your odds.

The world is not perfect and each of us has their own personal evalution based on their own reasoning on what works and what does not. I believe a man or women does not specifically need to master style number 24487# to defend themselves. They do not need a set number of years of traditional this or traditional that. Thousands on thousands of people a year defend themselves with just grasps of training or none at all. Since the parameters of a fight will almost always be unkown untell the time of that fight my choice of what a person does need is foremost the knowledge of how to prevent crime, coupled with a determination to win at all costs using controlled aggression and a core set of solid fighting skills based on simplicity.

Again your thoughts may differ than mine. I just don't take such an antiseptic approach to fighting.

shaolinboxer

05-02-2003, 01:51 PM

"Most people are soooo afraid of getting punches thrown toward their face, even many who "train."

You should be afraid of getting hit in the face. It can kill you or permanently injure you.

Water Dragon

05-02-2003, 01:59 PM

Yeah, and so can undercooked hamburger.

Shuul Vis

05-02-2003, 05:57 PM

My instructor will place his hand on my buttocks or caress my thigh while i do techniques. He says it is to make me feel stress like i would in a real life combat situation. :)

Mr Punch

05-02-2003, 09:44 PM

BJ is correct.

There are no constants.

So I would consider learning and indeed have learned from people I considered less than balanced. I have found that their ability to pass on relevant skills related knowhow to be more limited than a lot of the people who are more passionate about their art though, rather than just ass-kicking! But, that's just my experience, I'm not saying that's a constant!:D

FatherDog

05-02-2003, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
My fiancee can! She was sparring with a 200+ lbs thai boxer that got frustrated during sparring so he whacked her with a left hook. She spun with it and landed a hard ass back kick. Hee-hee.

She will freely admit, however, that he would have mauled her shortly thereafter. :p

Man, not only is MP a purple belt in BJJ and a boxer, he has a fiance that spars Thai Boxers. If it weren't for the fact that I have a well-paying job that enables me to wear pajamas to work, I would feel thoroughly inferior. ;)

Anyway... to learn from someone, to train from someone, requires a degree of trust. Conditioning is one thing; I expect to be hurt somewhat in class. But if I can't trust my instructor not to injure me (and that seems to be implied by your description of 'maniac') then I can't train with him.

Budokan

05-03-2003, 09:19 AM

I think it's possible you *could* learn something from a maniac, but I'd prefer not to, thanks very much.

Having Jeffrey Dahlmer teach me the ins and outs of culinary arts (human tartare), or taking tai chi lessons from Manson with a fork in my stomach and my pregnant wife hanging from a rafter, or having Mengele teach me the delicate and subtle differences between twins whose heads are sewn together isn't really something that I'd approach with an open mind. But maybe that's just me.

David Jamieson

05-03-2003, 10:47 AM

Black Jack--

I can say that the autonomatic response system is first and foremost at the onset of any violent scenario. Ergo, yes anyone can defend themselves.

But, I agree that there are 100's or 1000's or even infinite variables at play in any given situation.

I do believe that in order to fight well, you require a solid root (loosely used for this context)and tested techniques that you are able to apply effectively 100% of the time. Even if you've learned hundreds of techs, you should have a handful that you have perfected.

This simply takes time and energy. Unless someone is a very special adept or a phenomenol natural at fighting, it is my experience that they will not be able to achieve root and technique in less than a solid year of training. To perfect even more material of course, requires more time and effort invested.

Once again, this is all outweighed by superiority. IE: Anyone, master or neophyte can be cut, broken or shot with no warning and no time to put up anty defense.

Cheers

Volcano Admim

05-04-2003, 02:29 PM

Well good spirited one you seem to understand what the true value of volcano but you makes mistakes when you say that someone from my academic caliber would PACIFY obviously none of you grow in tough neightborhood, rich and spoiled watch a satelite disk dad pays i know you do today, i dont know you rich trian martial art for have dad pay per view for you UFC

Robinf

05-05-2003, 05:43 AM

Black Jack,

I understand your point about aggression. In fact, I didn't need the scenario.

The question of this thread is would you learn from a maniac? Someone who is uncontrolled aggressively.

My point is, I would not learn from a maniac like that because it does no good.

And, sometimes, no matter how aggressive you are, you can still lose.

Learning to be aggressive does not mean you will be aggressive. Learning from an aggressive person will not mean you will be aggressive.

I've never had to get myself out of situation such as the one you put forth, so I cannot say how I would react. I cannot say what would be successful. Aggression appears to work, and maybe that's what would come to the surface if ever faced with that.

I did get myself out of a potential situation. I had forgotten where I parked my car at a mall. I was, stupidly, hunting around kind of looking lost. This guy comes out and heads toward me, about six feet, balding, blue eyes. He angrily yells at me and points in a direction, "You have to start from the beginning." He continues toward me at a good clip. I, unfortunately, was boxed in by cars and didn't see I could run anywhere without getting hit by a moving vehicle. I stood my ground, held out my hand and repeated in a commanding tone used for dogs, "Back off." He continued staring at me as he changed direction without missing a step. I kept my hand out, turning to keep that shield between us. I blinked and he disappeared behind some shrubbery.

Was this aggressive on my part?

Shaolin-Do

05-05-2003, 06:50 AM

Sounds like he was crazy.
Just be crazier than him and hell leave you alone. Take a dump in the walk way or something.

;)

As for training with a maniac..... We need to establish some sort of level of maniac-ness. Like wierd maniac who sneaks around your bushes wearing a sock over his genitals?
Or crazy scary maniac who gets off to the thought of babies on spikes?
Or richard simmons?

Robinf

05-05-2003, 08:15 AM

Richard Simmons :eek:

Don't scare me like that.

Black Jack

05-05-2003, 09:41 AM

Robin,

I brought up the sceniro to illustrate a point I was making in regards to some of your comments I was interested in. To paraphrase you said that being aggressive doesn't make you a good fighter and that being aggressive has nothing to do with winning a fight.

I tend to disagree with that statement. If in my above sceniro the victim in her rightfull panic forgot all of her pre-planned step by step responses that her dojo training is supposed to be giving her but if she still had a fierce aggression to survive no matter the cost and a sincere willingness to hurt another human being than that alone could be enough.

That is often enough for a lot of people everyday that do not have martial arts training.

To answer your question I think you were being aggressive. You were pro-active which is a sign of controlled aggression.

Robinf

05-05-2003, 10:20 AM

Black Jack,

Thanks for clearing that up. Actually, your response to my question helps me understand your point further. In that line of thinking, then I agree that controlled aggression is necessary and successful in many circumstances.

However, learning from a "maniac" I still feel is not productive.

Black Jack

05-05-2003, 11:52 AM

Robin,

Me as well. I would never want to learn from someone who is unbalanced. Just last year I turned down the shot to train with a ex-combat vet who has some pretty street worthy skills because the guy was lets say a bit distrubed.

To be honest I am still a bit unclear to Kung Lek's definition of what a maniac is in terms to this post topic. I have yet to see a solid definition to peg down his opposite to my pacifist thread.

Either way stay safe!

David Jamieson

05-06-2003, 06:24 AM

What is it that you don't understand about the original definition given in the first post?

It clearly states an opposite to your vision of a pacifist.

A great many people think that pacifists are wholly incapable of defusing or neutralizing violent situations. I disagree with that and have experienced methods where pacifism overcame overt aggresion and stopped an otherwise potentially violent situation.

A fundament of the pacifist paradigm, is that violence begets violence and the ways and means to breaking that cycle is to resist without resisting.

This doesn't mean lay down and play dead.

cheers