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Michael Jacobs
07-23-2001, 05:34 AM
My current instructor learned Longfist from a Sifu by the name of Femon Ong. Has any one heard of him or by chance know a lineage for this particular person?

MonkeySlap Too
07-24-2001, 08:31 PM
Wasn't he a Southern Shaolin guy that lived in Ohio? I thought he was one of John Allen's teachers...Not sure tho...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Dale Dugas
07-25-2001, 02:14 PM
I have heard his name mentioned several times. He lived in Barbeton , Ohio and taught a style something like 5 Animal Shaolin. Im not 100% on this as it was handed to me from another.

Ive heard some great stories abot demos he did. He was a very strong teacher from what his students have said. Most of his students teach under Kwan Yin Do.

Hope this helps.

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

Drunken1
07-25-2001, 09:05 PM
Feeman Ong was one of Green Dragon Studio's John Allens teachers, as well as one of my senior Lung Ying/ Northern Shaolin Training Brothers. Legendary in Ohio. From Stories I've heard, It got so that at tournaments he would show up, no one would want to fight him, he'd be given 1st place, and then everyone else would fight for second. Had a Broad knowledge of different Kung Fu Systems, not just Southern 5 animal. Used to fight in tourneys with Tai Chi. Judging from my Si Hings pedigree and that of John Allens, Feeman Ong was the real deal.

chessboxer
07-27-2001, 07:16 AM
Greetings,


In these tournaments were the allowed to make contact? From some articles i have read there was a time of transition in tournaments. From real heavy contact to the sport point competions you see at some tournaments. Did he really use tai chi? I also remember that CMA stylist were look at as they are good in forms, but didnt far well in sparring...until several CMA stylist started winning and getting recognized. I do know as you have stated that he did teach members of green dragon studios. Any info on this and Mr Ong? Hope to hear from you guys soon.

Johnny

Michael Jacobs
09-04-2001, 04:06 AM
Thank you to all those who replied, I dont suppose anyone has a photo of Feeman or knows his lineage off hand? I am trying to put together a photographic lineage chart for WU TANG Martial Art Association of Ohio. Although Feeman is not from wu tan styles as far as I know, my current instructor did train under him and he will be in the chart. Good men and women should be remembered. Thanks

Pilgrim
09-10-2001, 03:13 AM
Master Ong was a gift to the northern Ohio Chinese martial art community. He learned from Master Kao to sheng/Gao dao sheng,Master Lau/Lowand Master Ma. Master Kao is in his 80's now and has knee surgury but he remains the leader of one of the better Long Fist Praying Mantis kung fu schools in Taiwan. If you ever wanted to contact the school it is at Wan-Hua District, Ch'ing Nien Road, Lane68,no. 30 B-1. Taipai, Taiwan R.O.C.Other info on Master ong may be seen on the Mantis Cave website.Cleveland /Akron area has a lot of great martial artists who are students of Master Ong,like Dave Wetzel, Bob Krueger,Stephen Ong.Master Ong taught a lot of material that some people feel is made up, I don't know about that but if you believe in the teachings and do them you'll see yourself advance in skills.

Drunken1
09-11-2001, 07:50 PM
Master Kao's stance exercises were some of the hardest I've ever experienced, I still wince, and it's been 10 years.....................

RAF
09-11-2001, 09:31 PM
Dear Michael Jacobs:

I arrived in Akron years after Femon Ong had died but knew a few of his students.

In the Sunday, October 15, 1972, Akron Beacon Journal the article is entitled PEACEFUL MAN WITH A LETHAL ART, by Mickey Porter has his story and pictures included. The article says he studied under:

1) Liu Pie-Chung of Taiwan

According to the article, in 1972 Ong won the PRESIDENT'S CUP KAUSUT TOURNAMENT, the President being Chiang Kai-shek. The author states that Femon Ong was born in China, graduated high school in 1952, and went back and forth to Taiwan and China.

There was no relation with the Wu Tan Martial Arts Development Center of Taiwan. However, Master Kao was primarily a praying mantis teacher and was friends with Liu Yun Qiao and Tony Yang. Tony often ate with him and they taught near each other in the park in Taiwan. In the 1970s, Inside Kung Fu or Black Belt carried an article on Master Kao. I have seen the article but do not have a copy.

A friend of mine in his mid 70s (Taekwando) knew of Femon Ong and indicated he was the real deal. He is somewhat of a legend here in the Cleveland/Akron/Canton area and as you might guess, legends often become larger than life. Some hate him some love him, you know, so what else is new. I do not know his son personally, but I understand he continues to teach in Barberton.

I hope this helps.

Pilgrim
09-14-2001, 08:26 PM
I'm curious about the history of Master Kao's forms, which were definately part of Master Ong's curriculum. For those who have contributed to this discussion, please ask your sifu's for some history.When it comes to spelling,I'm probably making mistakes and there is also the problem of cantonese verse mandarin sounds and and having an English speaker attempting to put those sounds into words using the alphabet.
For example, some schools teach forms such as Shao fu yin and gok my gin,which may have a Cantonese pronunciation to them. I have heard there is a form called Xiao Hu Yan(Small Tiger Swallow) which is the first part of a 3 section form called Hu Yan Quan.
Master Kao taught 2 staff forms-PanLong Gwun(Coiling Dragon Staff) and Feng Mo Gwun(Crazy Demon Staff). The spear forms were Xiao Liuhe Qiang(Small 6 Harmony Spear) and Da Liuhe Qiang(Big 6 Harmony Spear). Are these similar in name to the forms taught in the Akron/Barberton area?
There are also forms such as the small body and the big body( small frame, big frame?)The 9 times with it's lots of screaming loud tones and requiring herbs. Any info on these.
So it seems Master Kao's forms are of northen shaolin origin but from a different lineage from Wong Jack Man/Wing Lam/Master Ku(?).
All errors if any are mine and I'd like to know more.

RAF
09-14-2001, 08:44 PM
Pilgrim:

I cannot speak about Femon Ong's lineage. Some of it looks like Northern long fist and the others I have seen looks like Southern forms.

All I know about Master Kao is that he taught 7 star praying mantis (primarily). I know the feng mo guen (from Tony Yang) so that sounds about right. Xiao Hu Yan, seems to be a combination of praying mantis and longfist we also teach Si Lu Ben Da (can't remember the translation, 4 roads something). Most of our mantis is from Master Su Yu Zhang (Tony's Uncle taught him meihua tanglang quan at an early age and GM Liu sent him to his gong fu brother for Liuhe tanglang quan).

I also heard that Femon Ong's proper name was Femon Huang. Supposedly his other relatives spell it that way.

Femon Ong taught literally thousands of people in the Cleveland/Akron/Canton area and there are many stories about him, both good and bad. I knew one of his top students who was an underground fighter and he strongly believed in his material. I know others who feel they never got his gold after so many years.

Who can say?

RAF
09-15-2001, 02:58 AM
My mistake regarding Master Kao. He taught Shuai Shou Tanglang Quan (Slapping hand praying mantis) and long fist. He learned somethings from Han Ching Tang.

He was a very nice person. Friendly, good heart.

Tainan Mantis
09-17-2001, 12:22 PM
His book's Si Lu Beng Da and Hsiao Hu Yen list his teacher as Wang Song Ting. A famous teacher from China who came to Taiwan in 1949

Pilgrim
09-19-2001, 06:49 PM
Do any of you who train in the Small Body (maybe also called small frame) , can you ask your sifu of the histiry of this exercise. Also what about the Big Body(big frame)? Have you used herbs while training in the beginning? Do you know what any of the herbs are? Green Dragon calls the small body iron vest.

RAF
09-19-2001, 07:28 PM
In the 1980s, prior to my formal association with Tony Yang, I met 3 different students who did the small body 3 different ways. One required no meat and no sex for, hmmmm, 90 days, I think? Another did not do this at all. Another guy did different exercises than the first guy and did them in a completely different tempo that made more sense than the guy doing the Vege/Sex limitations.

As a result of this confusion, I decided not to train in the system. I think that the only person who could answer your question is Steven Ong whom I do not know personally. Sometimes students have a tendency to take what their teachers give them and add their own spin on to it. Its bad because you never know what is correct and what is not correct

MonkeyKingUSA
12-02-2006, 06:33 PM
I am from the Akron area and have trained with one of Sifu Ong's direct students and several of that lineage's members in the past (70's and 80's). Also, my closest kung fu brother trained with the group for several years.
Many of the forms Sifu Ong taught were actually taken from other systems and drastically shortened. They have a version of Bung Bu from 7* Praying Mantis. Their "9 times" form is a bad version of the Hung Gar Iron Wire set. They also teach a form they call "Far Ken" which is a shortened version of a Choy Li Fut set. Plus, they have various animal sets (including monkey :) ). They referred to their fist sets as "tokens" (fist way).
They place a heavy emphasis on Iron Palm which they call "Little Hand" and "Big Hand" and Iron Body. Their Iron Body instruction is top notch. I learned their Iron Body training in the middle 80's from **** Pitts Jr., who was a student of Gene Chicoine. Mr. Chicoine was a student of Sifu Ong for a while.
The only weapons set I ever saw performed was a fan set.
Their students are typically rock solid from the training. Forms with applications were taught. However, sparring was forbidden. Some members engaged in bar fights and dojo storming in the past to test their skills.
Al Wasil took over the head of the system after the death of Sifu Ong.

IronWeasel
12-02-2006, 09:51 PM
Femon Ong's Kwan Ying Do System:

http://www.kwanyingdo.com/

Gongli
12-08-2006, 01:01 PM
Feeman Ong taught a bunch of stuff, quite an experience being part of his kwan Ying do system, and I really mean that.

Gongli
12-08-2006, 04:28 PM
I'll go further with my statement. Those who know me know me for my bluntness.
Feeman Ong taught a bunch of stuff. When I was a younger person some 34/35 years ago, I was introduced to Feeman Ong's Kwan Ying do, although it was named Kenpo Karate at that time, Nobody seemed to know what was what. Feeman Claimed to be one of the 10 tigers. 10 tigers of what? I have no Idea.
There where only 10 famouse figures whom I know of as 10 tigers, and Feemans name isn't mentioned. He also claimed to be trained by the Shaolin Monks, and claimed he was a Shaolin monk, and to be the winner of several death matches while part of the famed Dragon fighting team. "never heard of it". Claimed that the finish to one of his death matches was the removal of a still beating heart of his opponent. Anybody getting the Idea who Feeman Ong was? Claimed that The Monks at the temple in China knew of
everything going on at his studio's and approved. Claimed that these same monks
where in the mountains picking rare Chinese herbs for his Iron Palm medicine that sold for $300 to $2100 dollars depending on which 1 gallon mix you purchased.
Never mind all that stuff about the cultural revolution. There where so many bizarre stories, Its a surprise I didn't give up training altogether.

I will say the study of Feeman Ong's kung fu without a doubt is the biggest waste of time a person could embark upon. Fraudulent training sets, pieces
parts of this and that. Iron Body training that Is not iron body training but part of the basic training for White crane. basic set after basic set. A mile wide and an inch deep.
To top it all off, the senior instructors that have been left behind in charge, Alex Wasil or Dr. Alex Wasil, what a load of crap, and the psychotic Robert Kruger,candidate for a rubber room
if there ever was.
These two Jackweeds have a complete inability to ever speak any truth.
completely incompetent in their understanding of the material they teach.
and they have no problem relieving students of their money while teaching
some rare qigong out a book that they picked up two weeks prior.

I have had an opportunity to meet several people over the years that trained with this group. I am embarressed for them when they demonstrate their stuff. Someone mentioned Richard Pitts Jr. a long time student and instructor
under Feeman Ong, I met one of this persons instructors who had eight years of training, This person had absolutely no skill and was on his way to getting hurt.
I asked him what have you been doing, his reply was that Mr. Pitts beats us,
because if you can take a beating you where one step up on others... I suppose?

I have trained with some of these people in my past at one time or another, what a waste of time. These people have ruined countless enthusiastic students.
I think if I hear one more time about how instructors from this group can teleport themselves across town while in some meditative state, honest to God I may
hit that person.

I dont know about the monks, but many authentic schools knew what was going on in Akron, Instructors in San Francisco laughed and refered to the training here as Chop Suey. I call it Crap. It was quite a cult in the day, still is but not as much. Allen and the rest of them are no better, forms pirates, that prey on
the unknowing.
Did people work hard, you bet, like freeken animals! It is a shame that this got into the hands of such ripoff artists,

Some of these folks have gone on to better themselves and get training that is legit, God bless em, I'll leave them to speak if they so desire.

You fight how you train an old kung fu saying goes. Holding stances and practicing *******ized forms for 10 years just wont cut it. Feeman never trained any fighters, The people who could fight, could fight before they met Feeman and thats the cold truth of the matter. Kung fu is for the average person to be able to
survive against a more potent adversary. I actually witnessed two students with over 6 years of training each get the snot beat of them in a garage kickboxing match against a person with less than eight months of training. If anything the training these guys had, was what got them snot kicked.

Ive seen dozens of posts over the years on this subject, well here is your firsthand account. you no longer need to speculate an Feeman Ong and his
group of inept instructors.

I could go on and on, but I'll let you guys chew on this for a while

mickey
12-08-2006, 04:33 PM
Greetings,

Gongli,

On the six hour Q&A tape from Green Dragon, Sifu Allen gave me the impression that he was more than a little spooked by the metaphysical aspects of training that Master Ong taught. That being said, did you learn the Golden Buddha Meditation? Would you please share what it is about and share your experiences with it?

Thank you and welcome to the forum.

mickey

Gongli
12-08-2006, 06:03 PM
The Golden Buddha Meditation, That's not a Feeman thing, That would be a Allen thing, Something picked up, probably related to all the stuff he refers to as White Lotus... All of this material from what I had reviewed was actually a style called Tao Gar. A Family style from an instructor named Andrew Lum in Hawaii. This was something given to Allen second hand.
Not directly from master Lum. It was a Hakka style connected very much to metaphysics and black magic. The hand gestures in this styles sets are meant to have combative meaning against demonic possession and the dead. The spirit world just beyond ones sight." mmm OK" right up Allens alley. Anyway Im sure that what is spoken of on the tape relates to a story that is associated with the material. Im also sure that he only has the most superficial layers of the style. The person who gave him the material was very upset with what he saw that had been done to it {Feemanized}and refused to turn anymore of it over. Tao gar was very popular amongst the Honolulu Police officers. And I believe Master Lum has passed. Also for the record Master Lum had nothing to do with Allen.

Kind of a 70's thing..Hotel California, Anton LaVey. Several Feeman guys were into some sort of time wasting crap like that. A mile wide and an inch deep.

MonkeyKingUSA
12-08-2006, 08:45 PM
Gongli,
Please man, tell us how you REALLY feel! :D
Yes, that is the general feeling in Akron. It makes you wonder when EVERYTHING you hear about a group is negative. Especially from the MA peeps in the area.
I was once at a class where Al Wasil was telling his students about the Shaolin monks hand picking the herbs for the Akron schools. He went on to say that everyone needed to buy the Iron Body pills he sold because you can accidentally run into a door, hit a dim mak point and die. His pills could prevent that. :eek:
In the story you told about the fight in the garage, were you referring to Richard Pitts Jr's studio? I had brought two of my Monkey students (husband and wife) with me from Ft. Wayne, Indiana. Richard allowed us to stay the night at the studio. The next day we all sparred. I think it might have been the first time Richard's students had ever sparred. My male student with six months experience couldn't be touched by Richard's students with years of experience.
In defense of Richard Pitts Jr., he was always kind to me. He once literally gave me the sweatshirt off his back (and pants). He said that they had absorbed his chi from training and that he wanted me to have it to blend with my chi. No, I don't believe in that sort of thing, but I believe that he did and I took it as a kind gesture. Richard was also one of the toughest men I have ever known. You couldn't hurt him! He trained two hours everyday for years. I once watched him tear apart an old style brick backyard grill with only his hands and feet. :eek:
I was very sad when I heard that Richard had died in prison. I have only fond memories of him. Does anyone know what happened to his son? His son was only a few years older than my daughter.
I agree that the Akron crew spread some whoppers, but they also provided a good base for many of us when we went into other Chinese arts.
Here are a few martial artists that began in the Feeman Ong lineage:
Wayne Schultz (Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun)
Mike Biggie (Bei Tang Lang)
Ed Niam (Fut Ga & Tai Chi Chuan)
Gene Chicoine (Shuai Jiao)

Sifu Darkfist
12-08-2006, 11:04 PM
for a bunch of guys that love Cma i am suprised that the basics do not hold a closer place in your hearts. i.e.

"Iron Body training that Is not iron body training but part of the basic training for White crane. basic set after basic set. A mile wide and an inch deep". Cong li?

90 arm grabs per side per day? isometric training? lots of stance work for strength
lots of punches repeated and kicks repeated?
sounds like good solid training to me.

A great powerful master once told me ___"Xiao Ji Mi train the basics all the time, without the constant use of these you have no kung fu" and "dont tell the fighters to much they dont need all that stuff they just need 3-5 sets of attacks thats it!" " the attacks must be their best kung fu "No defense Just go ...Just touch and Go" That man is My Master Yang Xiao Dong And i can say first hand, he knows the way to use all phases of combat.


"Train a thousand punches a day to make one count" Tiger Yang Xiao Dong ( my personal nick name for my beloved master.)

Royal Dragon
12-09-2006, 10:43 AM
Training basics properly is the key. Trainng them wrong 1000 rps a day isn't going to do anything but make you really good, at being really bad.

Iron Buda
12-11-2006, 08:13 AM
After all these years and people are still asking about Feemen.
I studied under Master Ong from 1969 till his passing, I then went with went with the main school.
Master Ong left the school under the guidance of Master Al Wasel.
Master Wasel is as great a healer as he is a Fighter.

If anyone wants to update this thread I'll let you in on some of Ohio's best-kept secrets.


Iron Buda

ekaltenborn
12-20-2006, 09:13 PM
Al Wasil?.... C'mon man, think it through before you post. he is not a master of anything-- especially martial arts. If you've ever seen him move he looks like a cross between rosanne barr and jabba the hutt rolling across the floor.

Sorry for my blunt statement but I culdnt resist. Those Kwan Ying Do guys have been screwing up martial arts in the Northeast Ohio area for 35 plus years.

I was training with a reputable Arnis instructor from the West Coast about a year ago and when he found out I was from Northeast Ohio and did Kung Fu, he asked "you arent one of those ******* feemon ong guys are you"....

Theres some great Kung FU in that area, unfortunately Kwan Ying Do aint it...

Akronviper
12-21-2006, 11:14 AM
From my dealings in the Akron area, and else where. There are two types of people one that thinks that Ong was the greatest thing since sliced bread (mostly because he was an asian in the 70's so it must of ment he knew kung fu), and others that see him as a fraud. Looking at both sides it seems that he had some martial arts knowledge and could fight, but he had to make rediculous story's to get the faith of the gullable white man. He had a captive market of being one of the few to teach supposed CMA in a town with many Karate schools.

ekaltenborn
12-21-2006, 11:25 AM
Thats a Great perspective AkronViper!

I think that there are certainly folks that think he was the greatest thing going. And those that thought him a fraud

To your point that he had to make ridiculous stories to get a buy in from the general public is probably accurate as well; hence why people tend to see him as a fraud.

Good, objective post!

Eric

MonkeyKingUSA
12-21-2006, 02:02 PM
After all these years and people are still asking about Feemen.
I studied under Master Ong from 1969 till his passing, I then went with went with the main school.
Master Ong left the school under the guidance of Master Al Wasel.
Master Wasel is as great a healer as he is a Fighter.

If anyone wants to update this thread I'll let you in on some of Ohio's best-kept secrets.


Iron Buda

Iron Buda,
I would like to hear your opinion.
BTW, is this Wayne Schultz, student of Feeman Ong? I just wondered since you gave your location as Green, Ohio.

ekaltenborn
12-21-2006, 02:10 PM
http://www.schulzmartialarts.com/sifu/sifu.html

It appears in looking at this as if Wayne Schultz was maybe a student of Feemon Ong....

Dont really know Mr. Schultz or know too much about him other than he has been around a long time.

MonkeyKingUSA
12-21-2006, 03:09 PM
http://www.schulzmartialarts.com/sifu/sifu.html

It appears in looking at this as if Wayne Schultz was maybe a student of Feemon Ong....

Dont really know Mr. Schultz or know too much about him other than he has been around a long time.

I have known Wayne for about twenty years. He is a good martial artist with some good students. His school is in Green, Ohio. He studied with Feeman Ong for many years. He then studied with Yao Li for a while. He also has been hooked up with the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun group for decades.
Darkfist who posts here studied with him for a while I believe.

MKUSA
http://www.angrymonkeyfist.com

JDK
01-02-2007, 03:22 PM
I studied this with this System both before and after Feemon's death.

As is the case too often in the MA World,when a master dies, several long-time Students via for Leadership. Unfortunately....none of them could get along, and had all held private jealousy issues , unspoken until Master Ong died.

Sad. After all he had taught them during his Sunday Lectures..they selfishly sought out thier own agenda's.

Feemon's son, Steven Ong was left as Head of the system...because of his youth, the senior students, ( Al Walsil, Bob Kruger and others) left and ventured out on their own, taking some students witrh them.

Gene Chicione and John Allen left way before that, again...because of power struggles and a desire for their own agenda's.

Allen has the Green Dragon Studio in Stow and Chicione has a school named HO-CHUN near Downtown Akron...and because he impressed the late Master Chang with his fighting skills...Mater Chang chose him as the disciple to carry on the Art ( even picking Chicione ahead of his own sons!)...he has since become the Director of the International Shiua Chiao Association and has trained many proficient fighters.

Chicoin IS the real deal as far as fighting and knowledge goes..unfortunetly he and Allen are not very nice men....again..something Feemon regretted to his dying day I believe, because he had invested so much time and training into these two men.

Anyways....Stephen Ong now has 20 plus years of addittional training, and is one of the few left in the System who actually had to Fight in Taiwan for his Black Sash..he too is the real deal.
Bob Keen ( my favoite teacher of all) lives in the Ong House in Barberton and keeps thing going. He is a gentlmen and a diligent martial arts teacher, who is now in late 60's and because of his Daily practice.....can still do things men half his age cannot.

So say what you will about Kwan Ying Do...I am not saying it is the best style out there...but it is a very good system for learning Basic Stances, Forms, Weapons and if you can earn the privilage...good training on Herbal Remedies and many Health Enhancing exercises.

kal
01-04-2007, 11:24 AM
I Chicoin IS the real deal as far as fighting and knowledge goes..unfortunetly he and Allen are not very nice men....again..something Feemon regretted to his dying day I believe, because he had invested so much time and training into these two men.
.

What makes Allen not a nice man? I haven't met him, but am familiar with the articles he used to write for Inside Kung Fu. I found myself agreeing with his writings a lot. I thought he was like the boy that dared to point out the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes.

I've also seen him doing some public speaking on videotapes (Question and Answer sessions) and he came across as very confident and a charismatic communicator.

kal
01-04-2007, 11:33 AM
By the way, is the name Femon Ong a Chinese name? Or is it some other language?

JDK
01-04-2007, 12:07 PM
What makes Allen not a nice man? I haven't met him, but am familiar with the articles he used to write for Inside Kung Fu. I found myself agreeing with his writings a lot. I thought he was like the boy that dared to point out the emperor wasn't wearing any clothes.

I've also seen him doing some public speaking on videotapes (Question and Answer sessions) and he came across as very confident and a charismatic communicator.

The exact description as I remember it of John Allen was a frustatrated Paratrooper looking for a fight...
So I decided to attend his Class and meet hm face to face.

I found him arrogant, aloof, condensending and an Ego Maniac.

I've given you my opinion...I suggest you ask Wayne Shultz ...
http://www.schulzmartialarts.com/sifu/sifu.html

Al Walsil http://www.kwanyingdo.com/

Mastr Kao (One of Feemons Main Teachers) Master Kao to sheng/Gao dao sheng,Master Lau/Lowand Master Ma. Master Kao is in his 80's now and has knee surgury but he remains the leader of one of the better Long Fist Praying Mantis kung fu schools in Taiwan. If you ever wanted to contact the school it is at Wan-Hua District, Ch'ing Nien Road, Lane68,no. 30 B-1. Taipai, Taiwan R.O.C.Other info on Master ong may be seen on the Mantis Cave

And here is some of the Linage of Kwan-Ying -do

http://www.kwanyingdo.com/lineage.htm

kal
01-04-2007, 03:30 PM
The exact description as I remember it of John Allen was a frustatrated Paratrooper looking for a fight...
So I decided to attend his Class and meet hm face to face.

I found him arrogant, aloof, condensending and an Ego Maniac.

I've given you my opinion...I suggest you ask Wayne Shultz ...
http://www.schulzmartialarts.com/sifu/sifu.html

Al Walsil http://www.kwanyingdo.com/

[/b]

And here is some of the Linage of Kwan-Ying -do

http://www.kwanyingdo.com/lineage.htm

Well, I have no reason not to believe you, since you've met him and trained with him and I haven't. I was just giving my impression of him from his speech on video.

But is there any truth to the rumour that there is a lot of Bible study and Christianity emphasised once you get inside Allen's "core group" at Green Dragon?

JDK
01-04-2007, 06:31 PM
Well, I have no reason not to believe you, since you've met him and trained with him and I haven't. I was just giving my impression of him from his speech on video.

But is there any truth to the rumour that there is a lot of Bible study and Christianity emphasised once you get inside Allen's "core group" at Green Dragon?

Yes that is true.....and is a real mystery to me.
If you looked ay my Profile you see I list religion as one of my Interests.

That is actually an understatement..

I have been a born again christian for 25 years....and although I have only met Allen Twice, I never got the impression I was with another believer.

However..............

A friend of mine trained under him for a year and verified that he did teach the Bible after work-outs.

So I cannot judge him on that...just on the Martial Arts rumors and things I witnesed first hand living less than 3 miles from his School.

JD

iron tiger
01-04-2007, 09:48 PM
Briefly--


Gene Chicione and John Allen left way before that, again...because of power struggles and a desire for their own agenda's

Untrue. And somewhat ridiculous. As covered in another thread.

In fact, it is JDK who appears to be distorting several facts in accordance with what is becoming a fairly obvious personal agenda.


just on the Martial Arts rumors

Ah, we judge people on the rumors now, eh? Well, that explains a lot! LOL.

I grew up in the Akron area, too. Amazing, reading some of the recent threads, how "varied" some of the opinions & "rumors" regarding the various personalities mentioned were, and still are.


is there any truth to the rumour that there is a lot of Bible study and Christianity emphasised once you get inside Allen's "core group" at Green Dragon?

I trained there for a spell. And attended some of the Bible studies, which were held one night a week and were purely optional. I was curious about my teacher's thinking etc.

You did not have to be part of the "core group" to attend nor was any sort of belief or afiliation with Judeo-Christianism required for success or participation in the CMA.


I found him arrogant, aloof, condensending and an Ego Maniac...not a nice man

A sterner disciplinarian or more demanding taskmaster you'd be hard-pressed to find. Likewise for his fairness and adherence to clearly laid-out principles.

But "not a nice man"? Sheesh! :rolleyes:


picture of Femon Ong

Have you seen this site?

http://seroteamavi.com/martial/kwan_ying_do_kung_fu.htm

Pic of him right there, too.

Piercinghammer
01-04-2007, 10:08 PM
I will chime in on this one:

Yes this has been one that has always lost me. I have had several students show up at my studio and join who where at one time Green dragon students.
They have all told me that was the standard, You must study at Allen's Bible study to become part of the inner group. Other things like calling the potential
new inner group student in the middle of the night and telling them they must report to specific location in 10 minutes, Having students turn over their weekly income so Allen can turn back over to them what they need for their personal finances. These people where students then, Some are college professors or managers of one sort or another now, and none of them have anything good to say about their Green dragon experience, One was a member of their demo team. Another student was fearful that word would get back that he was training at my studio. There is no excuse for this type of control being used on students.

I remember meeting Allen about 1978 when he was a visitor at Chicoine's school in Mogadore, when he left Chicoine absolutely ripped him, made jokes and referred to him in a very unflattering manner and nothing good to say about his students either. That always seemed wired to me when I was younger.

JDK I'm afraid I must agree with your analogy of "frustrated paratrooper". If I remember correctly Allen was a member of the Kent State ROTC Honor guard, studied psychology and drama when he was in college.

Wow I could see the next time a comet comes close this guy will have the inner group all get new sneakers and lay on their beds with trash bags over their heads ready to move on the next mission.



Mike Biggie
7 Star Praying Mantis,Hong Kong Branch
Choy Li Fut, Hung Sing Branch
Yang Tai Chi

JDK
01-05-2007, 05:25 AM
Briefly--



Untrue. And somewhat ridiculous. As covered in another thread.

Untrue because you say so ??? I was there....were you?
Know your facts before using such strong words like "ridiculous"



In fact, it is JDK who appears to be distorting several facts in accordance with what is becoming a fairly obvious personal agenda.

What agenda ???? I deal in facts. I have no dealings or personal beef's with Chicione or Allen. I am writing what I know....take it or leave it.



Ah, we judge people on the rumors now, eh? Well, that explains a lot! LOL.

I grew up in the Akron area, too. Amazing, reading some of the recent threads, how "varied" some of the opinions & "rumors" regarding the various personalities mentioned were, and still are.

I agree. Everybody see's things a little different...take a Professional Boxing match for instance....I have watched the same fight as someone with me...and had a totally different opinion as to who won the decision...also many times the Judges scores are vastly different. We all process things in our own way.


I trained there for a spell. And attended some of the Bible studies, which were held one night a week and were purely optional. I was curious about my teacher's thinking etc.

You did not have to be part of the "core group" to attend nor was any sort of belief or afiliation with Judeo-Christianism required for success or participation in the CMA.



A sterner disciplinarian or more demanding taskmaster you'd be hard-pressed to find. Likewise for his fairness and adherence to clearly laid-out principles.

But "not a nice man"? Sheesh! :rolleyes:



Have you seen this site?

http://seroteamavi.com/martial/kwan_ying_do_kung_fu.htm



No I hadnt ...thanks. We had several pictures of Maste Kao in our training Room at the Ong House....but little knowledge of his teachings.



Pic of him right there, too.

Akronviper
01-05-2007, 07:16 AM
Untrue. And somewhat ridiculous. As covered in another thread.


This is half true. Allen left Ong before Chicoine did and Chicoine met with G.M Chang in the mid 70's (74 to 78). Ong had died in the early 80's (i belive 82 or 84).

As far as power strugles I dont belive they wanted to be the head of the Kwan Ying Do system. They were just dissatified with Ong. I was not around at the time but have heard many reasons from many people and the people I trust the most have no reason to lie say it was over other issues.

RAF
01-05-2007, 07:38 AM
A friend of mine, familar with the Chinese language and Southern China, also couldn't figure out how Ong could be a Chinese name until he ran into some relatives of Femon Ong. The relatives spelled their name Huang. The it would would be easy to mispronounce hwaang as ong and standard pinyin really wasn't applicable, especially those speaking Cantonese.

JDK
01-05-2007, 01:11 PM
A friend of mine, familar with the Chinese language and Southern China, also couldn't figure out how Ong could be a Chinese name until he ran into some relatives of Femon Ong. The relatives spelled their name Huang. The it would would be easy to mispronounce hwaang as ong and standard pinyin really wasn't applicable, especially those speaking Cantonese.

Having known Feemon, Stephen, his Sisters and Mrs Ong...I can assure you they are Chinese.

Buddism was their religion...and Chinese sayings, knic-knacks and other Books were scatterd through out the House....most in Chinese.

The Board for the Beginners Required Forms were written first in Chinese..and then the translation was written next to the Chinese name of the Forms ( called Tokens) in English.

Everything from our Uniforms to the herbs and medicines were shipped from China or Tiawan, as I personally saw the Boxes and Original Shipping Cartons.

JD

MonkeyKingUSA
01-05-2007, 02:54 PM
I had heard that Feeman's daughters were accomplished martial artists also.

iron_silk
01-05-2007, 03:58 PM
Having known Feemon, Stephen, his Sisters and Mrs Ong...I can assure you they are Chinese.

Buddism was their religion...and Chinese sayings, knic-knacks and other Books were scatterd through out the House....most in Chinese.

The Board for the Beginners Required Forms were written first in Chinese..and then the translation was written next to the Chinese name of the Forms ( called Tokens) in English.

Everything from our Uniforms to the herbs and medicines were shipped from China or Tiawan, as I personally saw the Boxes and Original Shipping Cartons.

JD

I have been reading this thread for awhile.....and until someone mentioned that they are not sure that "Ong" was a chinese name

But Huang is Wong...so the relatives you are speaking of must've been through marriage or other relations.

Because Ong is definitely not Huang or Wong

JDK
01-05-2007, 04:40 PM
I had heard that Feeman's daughters were accomplished martial artists also.

You are correct.

I had the honor of watching them perform on 3 different occasions...and they were great....even though they were teenagers at the time.

Their flexibility and smooth movement was something to behold.

Never saw them much during Class...but they did perform at the Few Public Demonstrations held.

I wouldnt want to take them for granted in a fight because they were "just Girls"

JD

iron_silk
01-05-2007, 06:18 PM
Hi there!

I was wondering if you could tell me your name?

JDK
01-06-2007, 05:14 AM
I would ...but then I'd have to kill you~ :D

Just kidding.

I really dont think there is any reason to give up our anonimity on these forums.

The reason being....somebody in our area would take offense at something we posted and show up on our doorstep or School wanting to challenge us.

Not that am afraid...but I have a family to protect.

JD

iron_silk
01-06-2007, 07:10 PM
I would ...but then I'd have to kill you~ :D

Just kidding.

I really dont think there is any reason to give up our anonimity on these forums.

The reason being....somebody in our area would take offense at something we posted and show up on our doorstep or School wanting to challenge us.

Not that am afraid...but I have a family to protect.

JD


I understand and respect your decision!

JDK
01-07-2007, 06:24 AM
P.S
I also have never had to use my 357 Magnum or my 9 Millimeter Baretta...and Id like to keep it "just for the shooting range";)

JD

ngokfei
01-09-2007, 10:59 AM
a picture of the man we are talking about

Brad Cool
01-11-2007, 11:26 AM
After all these years and people are still asking about Feemen.
I studied under Master Ong from 1969 till his passing, I then went with went with the main school.
Master Ong left the school under the guidance of Master Al Wasel.
Master Wasel is as great a healer as he is a Fighter.

If anyone wants to update this thread I'll let you in on some of Ohio's best-kept secrets.


Iron Buda

Iron Buda,

I was a long time next door neighbor and student of **** Pitts! I worked for him and his father at the shop in Tallmadge and now reside in Florida. My son is at the age where he could appreciate the art and I know **** was working on some videos before his passing. Do you know of where I could purchase some of his materials? Or possible from master ong himself? I had the pleasure of meetin master Ong on several occasions first at a demostration then at his home. I am extremely interested in getting back into the art for health reasons among many. please reply. bradc@yourfbi.com

thank you,

Brad Cool
01-11-2007, 11:45 AM
You are correct.

I had the honor of watching them perform on 3 different occasions...and they were great....even though they were teenagers at the time.

Their flexibility and smooth movement was something to behold.

Never saw them much during Class...but they did perform at the Few Public Demonstrations held.

I wouldnt want to take them for granted in a fight because they were "just Girls"

JD

JD,

I was curious if you knew of Richard Pitts Jr? I trained with him and he trained under master Ong and I was hoping to get video or film on his demonstrations or any other films on demonstration so I may show my son. Please let me know bradc@yourfbi.com

ChuangkTzu
02-09-2007, 04:29 PM
I'll go further with my statement. Those who know me know me for my bluntness.
Feeman Ong taught a bunch of stuff. When I was a younger person some 34/35 years ago, I was introduced to Feeman Ong's Kwan Ying do, although it was named Kenpo Karate at that time, Nobody seemed to know what was what. Feeman Claimed to be one of the 10 tigers. 10 tigers of what? I have no Idea.
There where only 10 famouse figures whom I know of as 10 tigers, and Feemans name isn't mentioned. He also claimed to be trained by the Shaolin Monks, and claimed he was a Shaolin monk, and to be the winner of several death matches while part of the famed Dragon fighting team. "never heard of it". Claimed that the finish to one of his death matches was the removal of a still beating heart of his opponent. Anybody getting the Idea who Feeman Ong was? Claimed that The Monks at the temple in China knew of
everything going on at his studio's and approved. Claimed that these same monks
where in the mountains picking rare Chinese herbs for his Iron Palm medicine that sold for $300 to $2100 dollars depending on which 1 gallon mix you purchased.
Never mind all that stuff about the cultural revolution. There where so many bizarre stories, Its a surprise I didn't give up training altogether.

I will say the study of Feeman Ong's kung fu without a doubt is the biggest waste of time a person could embark upon. Fraudulent training sets, pieces
parts of this and that. Iron Body training that Is not iron body training but part of the basic training for White crane. basic set after basic set. A mile wide and an inch deep.
To top it all off, the senior instructors that have been left behind in charge, Alex Wasil or Dr. Alex Wasil, what a load of crap, and the psychotic Robert Kruger,candidate for a rubber room
if there ever was.
These two Jackweeds have a complete inability to ever speak any truth.
completely incompetent in their understanding of the material they teach.
and they have no problem relieving students of their money while teaching
some rare qigong out a book that they picked up two weeks prior.

I have had an opportunity to meet several people over the years that trained with this group. I am embarressed for them when they demonstrate their stuff. Someone mentioned Richard Pitts Jr. a long time student and instructor
under Feeman Ong, I met one of this persons instructors who had eight years of training, This person had absolutely no skill and was on his way to getting hurt.
I asked him what have you been doing, his reply was that Mr. Pitts beats us,
because if you can take a beating you where one step up on others... I suppose?

I have trained with some of these people in my past at one time or another, what a waste of time. These people have ruined countless enthusiastic students.
I think if I hear one more time about how instructors from this group can teleport themselves across town while in some meditative state, honest to God I may
hit that person.

I dont know about the monks, but many authentic schools knew what was going on in Akron, Instructors in San Francisco laughed and refered to the training here as Chop Suey. I call it Crap. It was quite a cult in the day, still is but not as much. Allen and the rest of them are no better, forms pirates, that prey on
the unknowing.
Did people work hard, you bet, like freeken animals! It is a shame that this got into the hands of such ripoff artists,

Some of these folks have gone on to better themselves and get training that is legit, God bless em, I'll leave them to speak if they so desire.

You fight how you train an old kung fu saying goes. Holding stances and practicing *******ized forms for 10 years just wont cut it. Feeman never trained any fighters, The people who could fight, could fight before they met Feeman and thats the cold truth of the matter. Kung fu is for the average person to be able to
survive against a more potent adversary. I actually witnessed two students with over 6 years of training each get the snot beat of them in a garage kickboxing match against a person with less than eight months of training. If anything the training these guys had, was what got them snot kicked.

Ive seen dozens of posts over the years on this subject, well here is your firsthand account. you no longer need to speculate an Feeman Ong and his
group of inept instructors.

I could go on and on, but I'll let you guys chew on this for a while



I wouldn't mind hearing more but this time don't sugar- coat it.:D




In all seriousness, I wish I could have seen Feeman Ong perform or demonstrate a form. I've heard so many stories (both good and bad) I would just like to see for myself. If you feel disillusioned about the Kwan Ying Do system, I would highly recommend Mike Biggie's Shaolin Boxing Academy. When you see him perform the "light bulb" goes on. He has an explosiveness in his movements and you can definitely see the Fa Jing when he demonstrates a form(with and without weapons). He's a nice guy and very down to earth. Not the typical ego-maniac you might expect from somebody so skilled.

Chuang Tzu

Li Ma-Keh
02-16-2007, 07:24 AM
Mike B. is a super guy' and excellent martial artist! I am an old' student of Hep-Sing/Green Dragon and not ALL of the training was bad,...most of it was authentic to it's source,(Bai-Yun Tzs') White Cloud Temple,.where Master Ong trained and, they took the Tein Shen Pai approach to forms which is true,.. a little of this' a little of that,...but you can't say Everything there was bad, because it wasn't! I had a very positive training career ther for aprx.' 8yrs., and Master Ong's son Stephen , who is a lawyer now , and his two sisters were Excellent! I also got to see them several times in the 1970s', and they didn't 'Move' like the rest of the Kwan Ying Do family!,..lol' Not everybody is the same,..lol'. Li Ma-Keh

JDK
02-16-2007, 07:47 AM
Mike B. is a super guy' and excellent martial artist! I am an old' student of Hep-Sing/Green Dragon and not ALL of the training was bad,...most of it was authentic to it's source,(Bai-Yun Tzs') White Cloud Temple,.where Master Ong trained and, they took the Tein Shen Pai approach to forms which is true,.. a little of this' a little of that,...but you can't say Everything there was bad, because it wasn't! I had a very positive training career ther for aprx.' 8yrs., and Master Ong's son Stephen , who is a lawyer now , and his two sisters were Excellent! I also got to see them several times in the 1970s', and they didn't 'Move' like the rest of the Kwan Ying Do family!,..lol' Not everybody is the same,..lol'. Li Ma-Keh


I agree 100 % about Mike and Stephen and his Sisters.

I can only imagine their skill level now......they did look different and performed much better than ANY of the students or Head Instructors at the time.

I mean there was just no comparison.

At the time I reasoned witin myself that of course Master Ong's kids would be superior because of the early, consistant and sometimes over sea's training from other Masters that they had the opportunity to have.

I do know really Good Martial Atrs techers whose children chose NOT to follow in their father's footsteps...and many trained only because they were made to.. and once they got close to 18 years old...they usually left the House, or stopped practicing all together.

So I have seen both sides.

Anyone know if Allen, Chicoine, Tony Yang, Monkeyking, have any children ?

I know the late **** Pitts has a teenager who is a "good scrapper"...but any other info out there concerning the Akron Area Teachers Offspring ????

JDK

JDK
02-16-2007, 07:53 AM
I am aware that most of the time, offspring do not reach the Pinnacle of success
that their fathers did.

There is only ONE Muhammed Ali ( his daughter not withstanding)
One Chang-Dung-Sheng
One Gene Chicoine
One Jackie Chan
One George Foreman ( even with all those kids)
One Joe Frazier ( We saw what happened to poor Marvis, his son)
One Joe Montana


I could go on but you get the point...and YES I am aware of the exceptions..but feel free to list them if you like, I would like to hear about the Offspirng of some of the Local greats...and the Rich & Famous :D

JDK

Li Ma-Keh
02-16-2007, 09:47 AM
I know that Si-Fu Allen has two daugthers,(at the time I was there, 70s'),..but, I don't think either one was interested in the art. Bow-Sim Mark's kids',..'however', have made their Mom very Proud! Plus, Si-Fu Gracenin's daugthers did Very well in Wu-Shu competitions,...but now they are studying acting in New York. , & T.V. production in Washington D.C.. Li Ma-Keh

MonkeyKingUSA
02-16-2007, 05:53 PM
JDK,
I have two children, Serena (age 23) and Logan (age 11).
My daughter trained from the time she was three years old till she was about eighteen. So she trained about fifteen years. She studied both Chinese and Japanese arts, but her major interest was and is Japanese jujutsu. She is now married and resides in Columbus, Ohio.
My son has trained for about three years in the Chinese martial arts and is interested in training for tournament fighting. He has just started weight training and keeps pestering me to learn iron palm since he watches me practice it daily. :)
Pictures of my children training can be seen at my blog: http://angrymonkeyfist.com/blog/index.html
Richard A. Tolson

Li Ma-Keh
02-18-2007, 02:02 AM
My son is 18yrs. old & he won a Silver-medal in Boxing last spring at high school level. It was his first year & he tried it just for fun,..lol'. NOW he's hooked! Even though I don't do/train or have Ever learned 'standard' Golden-Gloves boxing,...I was his Coach,..lol'. So, I just broke everything down to what was legal in the 'Ring',..and it worked,..lol'. My son also plays Trumpet in the High school band & football in 'season'. No real interest in the Chinese arts,..other than 'STILL' trying to get Dad off-guard,..lol'. Li Ma-Keh

stonewarrior67
04-24-2007, 03:44 AM
This Is A Loose History Of Feeman Ong That Was Passed Onto Me. If There Are Any Errors I Appologize Only To The Ong Family And No One Else. Feeman Was Born In Taiwan And Sent To The Usa For A Better Life. He Graduated From Barberton High School In '48. He Lived On Morgan Ave And By Trade Was A Baliff For The Barberton Courts. He Rec Ma Training As A Youth Before He Left And He Did Go Back To Taiwan To Continue His Ma Study. He Did Study Under Kao And Others. He Passed Away From A Heart Attack In '83 After A Dinner.
Feeman Taught Ma That Was The Real Deal. Period. He Produced Badasses Such As Chicoine, Keen And Allen. We Can All Write As Much Nonsense As We Like 30 Years Later But In That Time No One And I Mean No One Wanted To Be On The Recieving End Of A Beating From Those Three Or Some Of The Other Skilled People...as A Mater Of Fact Go Ahead And Try Your Luck Now As They Are Old Men...allen Would Be The Youngest At 60 Something. Just Keep On Typing Crappola On Your Keyboards Then.
The Tv Series Kung Fu Was Huge In The '70's And So Were All The "sing" Schools In The Akron Area That Feeman Held Onto With An Iron Fist. Northeastern Ohio Was And Has Continues To Be A Hot Bed For Cma Due To Feeman. But As Most Will Acknowlegde The Decline Of Students Due To The Younger Generations Being Hooked On Video Games And Being Lazy. If Someone Bullies Or Beats Up On Me I Will Either Have My Daddy Sue His Daddy Or I Will Shoot Him Because He Cannot Hamper My Personal Growth As I Watch Mtv.
Sadly, Feeman And Others Were Known To Stretch The Truth, Such As He Claimed He Trained In The Shaolin Temple. There Were Indents In The Temples Stone Floor From Him Doing Stances For Years. That He Had Many Death Matchs Where Two Fighters Entered A Large Hole In The Ground And Only One Was Allowed To Emerge. The Sunday Meetings He Held Were A Bunch Of Hocus Pocus For Which He Charged $2.00 A Head. He Started Over Charging For The Herbs And He Became So Caught Up In It He Was Trying To Make His Students Believe That He Was Next To A God. The Point Is That He Did Not Need To Make Up Anything!!!!!!!!! The Man Had True Skill!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rick "john" Allen Was The First To Leave Feeman About '78 And Gene Chicoine Soon Followed Due To The Above. Those Two Schools Leaving Feemans System Accounted For Over Half Of The Systems Students Which Put A Hurting On The Bump Up Money.
Feeman Was A Diabetic And Did Not Take Care Of Himself In The Later Years. Soon After Feemans Death There Were Many Rumors Flying About This And That... But I Wont Go Into It. To End, Feeman Was The Real Deal With Real Skill But Sadly Let It All Go To His Head As Many Do.
Also Mr. Richard Tolson. In Response To Another Post On This Site. I Was Not Present The Day You Say Your Young Students Bested **** Pitt's 6 Year Students But I Did Hear About It. But To Claim That Chicoines Students Did Not Have Any Fighting Capabilities Are Wrong And You Should Retract That Statement. I Was Present The Day Pitts Threw You Down The Stairs Of His School, The Art Of Desire On Brittain Rd In Akron, Oh And I Thought He Killed You. You Could Not Budge Pitts With Flying Kicks And You Landed On The Floor Numerous Times. Pitts Rose To A Green Or Brown Sash Under Chicoine Which Makes You In Error. Not To Make Hate But Just To Make The Record Straight My Friend.

ekaltenborn
04-24-2007, 04:09 AM
So to recap your rant Stonewarrior, you admit that Feemon (I believe thats the correct spelling of his name, you may want to check) Lied to his students.

Thats enough right there to discredit him. You opine that hes the real deal.... if he lies to his students, hes a schmuck...

I can believe you people still rant about this guy 24 years after he died......

Some people will just believe anything...

Do some research .... the sets he taught were missing huge pieces... I actually corrected one of his old students bungbo some years ago by teaching the guy the parts he was missing and then backing up the corrections with documented proof that he was just plain wrong... the proof, came from a series of books written by Wong Hun Fun, a famous mantis master.

No doubt the guy could fight, and could teach.... but he was absolutely a bs artist...

like i said... i cane believe people still talk about the guy

stonewarrior67
04-24-2007, 04:31 AM
Rant? I wouldn't call it a rant. I was reminescing(sp?) if anything. If your not from the akron area you might not understand. when you were a kid in those days just the name of Feeman Ong held reverence.
Ever think the guy you filled in the blanks for forgot some of the form? You maybe right on i dunno. I did see a film of Kao and recognized the form before i knew who the guy was so Feeman was trained by him no question. But then again when Chicoine met Chang Dung Sheng, Chang reviewed, corrected and threw out some stuff Feeman had taught Chicoine.
Also, If you RECAP, you'll read that it all went to Feemans head. Just as Tyson let it go to his head you cant take away the fact that he was one bad dude.
History stands no matter if we like the characters or not.
Have a good day and keep training hard.

ekaltenborn
04-24-2007, 04:54 AM
I dont dispute that Feemon was a tough SOB... I am from Akron, and I do remember those days... and i also know that sadly those people revered a person who was untruthful with them.... of misled them financially with the cost of herbs and such (a nice way of calling him a crook)....

When you look at the folks you mentioned..Chicoine, Pitts, Allen... Yea no doubt they are talented. But when you look at their students... they look unpolished; and god forbid you ask one of them the application for something they are doing... I made that mistake once and after 20 minutes of listening to this young man rant about god knows what... I politely excused myself and told him that frankly if it couldnt be backed up with science, it wasnt real...
I dont know Mr Chicione personally, I hear its a mixed bag- you either love the guy or you dont.... I dont know Mr. Allen either, but the young man I speak of above was one of his folks... And Mr. Pitts, well... I believe he died in prison so we will just leave that one at that.

My point is that if you step outside of Akron, or better yet research some of the great teachers that are there, youll unfortunately realize that Feemon Ong really took his students for a ride.... Lying to them is doing them a definite dis-service.

IronWeasel
04-24-2007, 05:07 AM
Stonewarrior,

Long time no see! How ya been?

The rest of us old alumni are gonna get together for some beatin's and some groundwork soon...join us if you're interested. Steve's 40 now, so maybe we can finally whip him.

JDK
04-24-2007, 05:18 AM
Thanks for the info Li Ma-Keh, (Boxing was my first love also Mark...glad your son is doing well~) ..(and the Pictures MonkeykingUSA...loved 'em!),.. My son is about the same age, and he likes boxing...but has gone the way of UFC, MMA,Pride Fighting and (unfortunately) prefers to fight on the street most of all:(
Sometimes I regret teaching him Martial Arts & Boxing beginning when he was 6 years old...he seems to "forget" all the values and moral codes I taught him along the way....and instead of Self-Defense, he is now the designated Fighter among his friends when they are out and about, and someone makes the mistake of crossing them. I am ashamed of this...and if anyone out there has had asimiliar experience with their children, and can offer any idea's or solutions I would be much appreciative. ( Eliom12@sbcglobal.net )


I have been so busy the last 2 months I havn't had time to post or respond.
Thanks again for sharing .

JDK

stonewarrior67
04-24-2007, 05:22 AM
i pm'd you

JDK
04-24-2007, 05:40 AM
This Is A Loose History Of Feeman Ong That Was Passed Onto Me. If There Are Any Errors I Appologize Only To The Ong Family And No One Else. Feeman Was Born In Taiwan And Sent To The Usa For A Better Life. He Graduated From Barberton High School In '48. He Lived On Morgan Ave And By Trade Was A Baliff For The Barberton Courts. He Rec Ma Training As A Youth Before He Left And He Did Go Back To Taiwan To Continue His Ma Study. He Did Study Under Kao And Others. He Passed Away From A Heart Attack In '83 After A Dinner.
Feeman Taught Ma That Was The Real Deal. Period. He Produced Badasses Such As Chicoine, Keen And Allen. We Can All Write As Much Nonsense As We Like 30 Years Later But In That Time No One And I Mean No One Wanted To Be On The Recieving End Of A Beating From Those Three Or Some Of The Other Skilled People...as A Mater Of Fact Go Ahead And Try Your Luck Now As They Are Old Men...allen Would Be The Youngest At 60 Something. Just Keep On Typing Crappola On Your Keyboards Then.
The Tv Series Kung Fu Was Huge In The '70's And So Were All The "sing" Schools In The Akron Area That Feeman Held Onto With An Iron Fist. Northeastern Ohio Was And Has Continues To Be A Hot Bed For Cma Due To Feeman. But As Most Will Acknowlegde The Decline Of Students Due To The Younger Generations Being Hooked On Video Games And Being Lazy. If Someone Bullies Or Beats Up On Me I Will Either Have My Daddy Sue His Daddy Or I Will Shoot Him Because He Cannot Hamper My Personal Growth As I Watch Mtv.
Sadly, Feeman And Others Were Known To Stretch The Truth, Such As He Claimed He Trained In The Shaolin Temple. There Were Indents In The Temples Stone Floor From Him Doing Stances For Years. That He Had Many Death Matchs Where Two Fighters Entered A Large Hole In The Ground And Only One Was Allowed To Emerge. The Sunday Meetings He Held Were A Bunch Of Hocus Pocus For Which He Charged $2.00 A Head. He Started Over Charging For The Herbs And He Became So Caught Up In It He Was Trying To Make His Students Believe That He Was Next To A God. The Point Is That He Did Not Need To Make Up Anything!!!!!!!!! The Man Had True Skill!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rick "john" Allen Was The First To Leave Feeman About '78 And Gene Chicoine Soon Followed Due To The Above. Those Two Schools Leaving Feemans System Accounted For Over Half Of The Systems Students Which Put A Hurting On The Bump Up Money.
Feeman Was A Diabetic And Did Not Take Care Of Himself In The Later Years. Soon After Feemans Death There Were Many Rumors Flying About This And That... But I Wont Go Into It. To End, Feeman Was The Real Deal With Real Skill But Sadly Let It All Go To His Head As Many Do.
Also Mr. Richard Tolson. In Response To Another Post On This Site. I Was Not Present The Day You Say Your Young Students Bested **** Pitt's 6 Year Students But I Did Hear About It. But To Claim That Chicoines Students Did Not Have Any Fighting Capabilities Are Wrong And You Should Retract That Statement. I Was Present The Day Pitts Threw You Down The Stairs Of His School, The Art Of Desire On Brittain Rd In Akron, Oh And I Thought He Killed You. You Could Not Budge Pitts With Flying Kicks And You Landed On The Floor Numerous Times. Pitts Rose To A Green Or Brown Sash Under Chicoine Which Makes You In Error. Not To Make Hate But Just To Make The Record Straight My Friend.

Good recap stonewarrior67...and as accurate as I have seen posted...thanks.
It took courage on your part ( IMO) to type the truth...not just a sugar coated version.;)

We need to remember that all of the above mentioned talented, real-deal fighters and teachers , were and are like all of us...flawed human beings.

They ( like us) were and are a mixed bag..so to speak.
The idea that a talented MA Teacher will also be perfect morally, emotionally and financially...is a pipe dream.
And yes....I am very familiar with most of the teachings of the ancients that skill level in the Arts... and Moral growth should go hand in hand.

Real life however....is much more complicated .

Each student, master, etc...has a free will to absorb ALL the training and teachings of the past 5000 years concerning CMA and Tradition.
But it is our choice which path we take, which teachings we embrace, and which ones we disregard. ( many times to our detriment)

Thanks again Stonewarrior67, for pointing out that pride can go to anyone's head..and we can become "full of ourself" and begin to believe our own hype.
( Just like the countless examples of Moviestars and Todays Sport-Millionaire Icons)
In my opinion.....it is much better to stay grounded, and always willing to learn and be taught by another, no matter what our level of skill and acheivments are.
Every man is my student...and everyman is my teacher"-Author ?

JDK

Royal Dragon
04-24-2007, 05:42 AM
Sometimes I regret teaching him Martial Arts & Boxing beginning when he was 6 years old...he seems to "forget" all the values and moral codes I taught him along the way....and instead of Self-Defense, he is now the designated Fighter among his friends when they are out and about, and someone makes the mistake of crossing them. I am ashamed of this...and if anyone out there has had asimiliar experience with their children, and can offer any idea's or solutions I would be much appreciative

Reply]
This is why I have drastically changed my stance and decided that it's better to put them in gymnastics when they are young. You get the same bennifits of self esteem, focus and all that, arguably Better conditioning, and no tools of violence.

Akronviper
04-24-2007, 09:32 AM
Sounds like every thing I've allways heard, to the point with no B.S

Sifu Darkfist
04-24-2007, 09:33 AM
I have a stake in this argument, but i am not going to take it. I instead am interested in all of your upset positon of exageration or lies.

Big news guys most monks are not real regardless of whether they practice the art lifelong or not. I have seen monks eat meat smoke drink take lovers etc.

All fighters use talk to some extent, and all martial arts from the far east have mystical stories or legends this is part of culture.

THose raised in this atmosphere are likely to mimmick it.

If the man is good, regardless of who what where or when he deserves

Now we do not use legend to impose martial stories so these things seem way out of place.

Akronviper
04-24-2007, 09:49 AM
I've looke at this issue from many sides (i'm intersted in the local history and lore), But I have found that most students are very loyal and to invalidate just one thing about their teacher, whom they in a way have trusted with their life with, is an attack at them to. Many people in the Akron area still to this day are very passionent about this subject.

The real deal is with or with out stories these men could kick ass and those are the people you want to learn from, not a person who say trust me this will work because my teacher says so but some one who say this works because I did it. In the same hand though you want what you learn to be legit because in life you will show some one your version of a form and technique and it may not be what you think it is. Then when you say that I have been taught from a man from the shoalin temple who aquires this knowledge throgh death matches only you look like the fool and have spent years practicing what you now dont know what it is.

MonkeyKingUSA
04-26-2007, 02:01 PM
Also Mr. Richard Tolson. In Response To Another Post On This Site. I Was Not Present The Day You Say Your Young Students Bested **** Pitt's 6 Year Students But I Did Hear About It. But To Claim That Chicoines Students Did Not Have Any Fighting Capabilities Are Wrong And You Should Retract That Statement. I Was Present The Day Pitts Threw You Down The Stairs Of His School, The Art Of Desire On Brittain Rd In Akron, Oh And I Thought He Killed You. You Could Not Budge Pitts With Flying Kicks And You Landed On The Floor Numerous Times. Pitts Rose To A Green Or Brown Sash Under Chicoine Which Makes You In Error. Not To Make Hate But Just To Make The Record Straight My Friend.

My the things you miss when you are away for a couple months! :eek:
Since you remain anonymous I have no idea if you were at any get togethers that my students or I had with Richard Pitts Jr. and his students. If you say you were I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were.
I do not remember posting that Chicoine's students did not have any fighting ability. However, the ones that George, Charlene and I sparred, that were Richard's students, were certainly not very skilled.
As for Richard Pitts throwing me down the stairs of his school and you thinking I was dead, that is quite funny! :) I do remember something about this incident, though it has been twenty years ago. Richard taught on the second floor of the building behind his father's business. When you came up the stairs, located on the right hand side of the training area, it lead to an open area. When Richard and I were sparring he backed me up to the stairs and pushed me part way down the stairs. I was unhurt. Though it certainly was a good strategy on his part and I don't believe Richard did it intentionally. He and I were friends and always had a good relationship.
If you look back at my posts you will see that I respected Richard and his ability. Especially his conditioning training, which he demonstrated for George and Charlene and taught to me.
I never claimed to have beaten Richard in any type of fight or sparring. The strikes I was able to land, he easily shook off. The strikes he landed I also apparently lived through. Though I might add that we were never trying to kill each other, because we were friends.
As for me landing on the floor numerous times, I do practice Monkey style and ground techniques are a part of our strategies. Whether obvious or subtle.
I visited Richard several times after the "stair incident", including visiting him at his home after his divorce. We remained friends.
My remarks were not meant to smear Richard's memory or disparage Mr. Chicoine's students. I certainly apologize to all if that is the direction my earlier comments seemed to point.

Unanonymously,
Richard A. Tolson

Li Ma-Keh
04-27-2007, 05:57 AM
Still discussing Master Feeman Ong,...'because' He did have real MA skills,training and the willingness to share it with others! Because of Master Ong 'Hundreds' of MA students were created! Some stuck with it some didn't,...same at any school or system! Some went on with their training in different directions,(like me),...and are teaching now. Yes,... the good ole' 70s', when you could whip a student up into a 'Kung-Fu' frenzy by talking about phoney CHI stories,...o.k., but LOTS of schools were doing that back then because it was a selling point,(although wrong), and the Kung-Fu T.V. show as well as all of the Hong-Kong MA movies that the easy-sold 17yr. old could see at his/her local Drive-In portrayed it that way! Alright, so'...we know better now. Leaving out parts of forms,...or maybe that's the way it was taught to Master Ong? ALL systems/schools have their 'own' variations that swear it's the real deal! If you understand/know ONE movement well, and anylize it in All directions,sizes of action,with and without a weapon,standing-sitting-lying down,.....then you'll only need that ONE movement! (old' Chinese strategy) I enjoyed my training under Si-Fu Allen and Master Ong and the Sunday Seminars at Si-Fu Chicoines' school. My 'other' teachers since then have given me deeper insight to joint line-up corrections which was the biggest and only change that really mattered. So, no matter where/who you train at/with,...study hard, search for details, get MANY different opinions, then make-up your own mind. I'm sure you'll find ALL of the variations I've found very interesting and an add-on to your training knowledge! Just check out the thousands of 'kung-fu' clips on youtube.com ! That will keep you busy cross-referencing and anylizing for months,..lolol'! Li Ma-Keh