WING CHUN vs. SAN SHOU sparring

[Dark Knight]

I grabbed this from mma.tv's JKD forum. I have no backgeound on it. But I thought everyone would enjoy it. The last caouple are longer.

http://www.graugart.dk/temp/wingsan/MOV00003.mpeg
http://www.graugart.dk/temp/wingsan/MOV00005.mpeg
http://www.graugart.dk/temp/wingsan/MOV00009.mpeg
http://www.graugart.dk/temp/wingsan/MOV00010.mpeg
http://www.graugart.dk/temp/wingsan/MOV00011.mpeg

http://www.graugart.dk/temp/wingsan/MOV00020.mpeg
http://www.graugart.dk/temp/wingsan/MOV00021.mpeg

[Liokault]

Grrrr It would only let me watch the second from last one and then it would only let me watch it once.

They are not to bad, not great but not bad. I can see nothing that i recognise as wing chun in the one i watched but then there was not much typical san shou either.

I would have liked to see more good clinches instead of all the running away backwards.

[lkfmdc]

I am having trouble openning them but the first one is NOT, repeat NOT San shou vs Wing Chun, it's Mike Altman (coach of Houston San Shou team) vs the European San Shou champion from Azerbaijan....

[Dark Knight]

I am having trouble openning them but the first one is NOT, repeat NOT San shou vs Wing Chun, it's Mike Altman (coach of Houston San Shou team) vs the European San Shou champion from Azerbaijan....

Again, I have no background, I grabbed them from some where else, thought people would like to see them.

[lkfmdc]

and the next 4 are clips from one of Shawn Liu's events...

again, they are NOT wing chun guys at all

[Liokault]

Worth watching though. Just wish i could open the rest.

[Suntzu]

those clips are from our website... somebody jacked us... the last 2 clips are us v some wing chun guys...

ok we wasn't jaked... somebody was just trying to help out...

[Liokault]

I could only watch the last clip.

So which was you Suntzu, the guy running away or the guy missing the guy running away? :D

[dezhen2001]

hehe, couldnt open the clips as im on 28.8k, but ive mixed it with some guys who do san shou, muay thai and full contact... i do wing chun and have done a few other things before.

i have a lot of respect for the guys who compete in those kind of events - i used to do the same myself (knockdown and boxing/MT), but nowadays i dont.

pretty fun :)

dawood

[Suntzu]

:D :D :D
I'm the lil black dude… the other lil black dude… in the red shorts… eating too many str8 punches for my liking… in the 2nd to last clip... the guy running away is with us... he always fights like that and it pizzes me off b'cuz of the reach...

[ShifuBinks]

I was the one "running away". While I did look like a huge wuss if the clip was a little longer, you would have seen that I actually did make it out the door and into the parking lot. In the heat of the moment I fumbled my keys, at which point he caught me and did mook sau or whatever.

[fa_jing]

I could see some wing chun - not bad although I thought aggressiveness was lacking, as was lateral movement.

[ShifuBinks]

Thanks for taking the time to watch them guys, and for the comments. We have fought several times since then, just waiting for my coach to give me the original 8 mm tapes so I can put them on the 'net. And in case anyone was interested, here are the descriptions:

1: Mike Altman vs. Paul Gurevichius, November 2, 2002
2-4: Amateur San Shou, me and Sunt Zoo: November 2, 2002
last 2: It WAS suppose to be san shou vs. wing chun, though I agree niether myself nor the wing chun guys were a great representation of our styles at that time. Still, that was when we were just starting out.

[Martial Joe]

the last clip looks like it shows some decent wing chun.

[fa_jing]

What's your method for getting the footage onto the 'net? I've got my fights (and others) on video and would like to make them available...

[ShifuBinks]

My bro does it for me, not really sure how he does it, but I will ask him and let you know. I do know that he needs a camera and the original tapes, the little ones, and he can make them up to one minute long. Some of them come out really good.

Yeah the wing chun guy I fought was good, whatever he looked like. My head was swimming. I cringe when I watch that clip, I guess I thought they were awarding points for flailing your arms while kicking. Should have clips from K Superstar San Shou in New Orleans online soon.

[NorthernMantis]

Pretty decent stuff compared to most clips on the net.

[ShifuBinks]

You have to save the footage to the "memory stick" on the camera, then the cable gets plugged into the USB port and to the port on the camera, and then the computer should recognize another drive, usually G or H and if you open that up it gives you access to the memory stick on your camera. Then copy the file and save it and load it onto the 'net.
I have no clue what any of this stuff means, hope it helps.

[LEGEND]

Sorry guys...that was ME posting at WWW.SUBMISSIONFIGHTING.COM on my other SN: HEMAN...I use to train with those wing chun guys 8 years ago. U san shou guys seem to have alwayz had our numbers though. I saw SUN TZU in the clip threw a well place side kick to the chest protector...OUCH...as well as a spinning backfist...OUCH! I assume if the rules permitted it...those WING CHUN entry would have been useless cause of the DOUBLE LEG. But look like u guys were just working on standup. I personally think Jullian( wing chun sifu ) should have inform the guys to kick more...it was getting to **** predictable with the BIL SAO entry to straight punch over and over again. But I'm just a GRAPPLER nowadayz so..:)

[Volcano Admim]

Well, San Sho + Win Chun are friend
proud and naked born in walk tough hand tied together speedos tight high on belly

[Phil Redmond]

I just went to the Great Lakes Tournament. During a San Shou fight a WC guys was warned because threw too many punches in one second. I walked over to Chi-Hsiu D. Weng, President of the Pan-American Shuai-chiao Federation. He was the head judge. I asked about the warning. He said that only punch per second is allowed. I looked at him strangely and he said, "it's in the rule book". I guess San Shou rules don't work for WCK. Are the guys from B-more TWC people? I heard someone yell out Biu Sao to one of the fighters. If so, do you guys know Sifu John Clayton?
Phil

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by LEGEND
those WING CHUN entry would have been useless cause of the DOUBLE LEG. Which wing chun entry? Just asking!;)

... I personally think Jullian( wing chun sifu ) should have inform the guys to kick more...Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of wing chun schools seem to regard kicking as an advanced technique!:rolleyes: So many beautiful kicks too!
Another problem is people in trad schools tend to use a shorter range kick than people in MMA scenarios, based on the fallacious assumption that if it's outside your immediate range it's not dangerous (...cos attackers only attack if they stand within two feet of you...:rolleyes::p!)... I think this is a basic flaw in many people's interpretation of wing chun principles.


it was getting to **** predictable with the BIL SAO entry to straight punch over and over again. Oh, that entry!? I think you'll find that entry is famously useful for fighting schoolgirls. If they're below 14 or so. And anorexic. Having their period and serious personality crises helps also...


Phil Redmond
He said that only punch per second is allowed.I think that's fair. It's too prevent too many of the above schoolgirls thinking they can waltz off with san shou titles...:rolleyes::D

[ShaolinTiger00]

During a San Shou fight a WC guys was warned because threw too many punches in one second.

That is a VERY poor interpretation of the rule.

International SanShou (IWUF rules?) has a rule against continuous punches to the head, and I beleive a ref will caution a fighter after he punches an opponent squarely in the the head more than twice in a row.

Many of us in the U.S. do not like this ruling and many US (various kickboxing sanction rules fights), let you headhunt 'till your heart is content.

[Shaolin-Do]

Jesus.... those clips made me realize just how aggressive I am.
hehehehe
Even when I spar my friends Im at them like a pit-bull... But yes, those fights were much better than the majority of what I see posted. A couple of take downs should have been used tho, but It didnt seem like that was what you were working. 2 funny spinning backfists to the head... hehehe

[Suntzu]

what u did not see was a few attempts at takedowns… by me… that was well defended… the guy had like 15+ lbs on me… and those attempts required too much energy… so I just stuck to what was working… plus I wasn’t as versed in takedown at the time… on the original tape we went for a total of 12+ rounds of sparring…

[fa_jing]

personally, I never enter with the Bil Sao, not to knock it, just not my thing. Usually I enter with a vertical fist jab or straight, or a front kick, or a tan, pak, fook, or lan sao.

[Mutant]

Except for the last two, those were all just san shou clips...

I have found it difficult to use wing chun type fighting against *good* san shou fighters. Its very hard to stick or use much sensitivity with the gloves on and the short spring energy is dissipated by the extra weight and padding of 16oz gloves. Also, adhearing strictly to wc stance and footwork would likely get you hurt in the ring and prove very limiting, although the rooting & turning principles sure apply.

The hand work; bon sau, pak sau, bil gee, etc, can work to some degree if tightened up closer to the torso & translated/modified a bit, but again, much of the snap-power is gone due to gear and if you get caught with youre hands out instictively and reflexively trying to trap & stick against a fighter with excellent boxing/san shou skills, they can really make you pay for it (SanShou Guru comes to mind, Jason, Norman...).

Where I find some of the wing chun skills more useful is actually in real close at clinch range...chi sau sensitivity and transitions can come into play while jockeying for or defending against a throw, much like push hands training can come in useful here. Also, short wing chun type stomp kicks on the break can get in and do their job.

I have some elements of wing chun in my san shou sparring, but i did other chinese styles before i did wing chun, so i'm much more of a mongrel anyway, and now I'm focusing primarily on san shou, so i'm tightening everything up and working on ring skills, more out of concern for self preservation & success in the ring, than any idealism.

I think that wing chun makes a much better self defense art than it translates to a ring art. I think the short, fast, explosive strikes can work real well in the street, being able to hit effectively from so many different angles with so many weapons/parts of your hands, arms, body, etc against so many different possible targets. But then again, san shou oriented fighting skills could be pretty devastating on the street as well...

Still, fighting full contact against different styles in a fully resisting manner is invaluable training, in my opinion, something that can be missing in semi-cooperative chi sao and light sparring that may schools adhere to.

So, some wc dude was warned for punching too fast?!? That sounds like bad reffing to me. And I think theyve done away with any head-contact restriction rules in san shou, such as continuous punching, thats way passe' and just about anything goes. But then, judges may not score a flurry if its sloppy, superficial & not doing any damage.

Interesting comparison, san shou & wing chun though, very different approaches and formats, both effective in their own context...worth cross-training together together, if not ideal for competition. Something I've been playing around with and thinking about a lot.

[LEGEND]

"Are the guys from B-more TWC people? I heard someone yell out Biu Sao to one of the fighters. If so, do you guys know Sifu John Clayton?"

Yes. These are the Baltimore branch of Traditional William Cheung. Those students are Sifu Julian Sawyer who was under Sifu Clayton. Julian himself is quite a badass...in all fairness to wing chun. I had suggested in the past WING CHUN guys need to use either the UFC type gloves or JKD/KENPO gloves...u can't grab with boxing gloves which means LOP SAO and DOUBLE JUT SAO is hard as hell to pull. I also suggested that WING CHUN guys adopt face ITECH mask helmets due to the different strikes like FOREARMs and BACKFIST that is present in the style. Would be interesting to see if they ever adopt this for full contact sparring. Seems somewhat save. I know as a grappler I can't grapple shiet with boxing gloves on.

[SanShou Guru]

I'm still trying to de-Wing Chung Mutant's fighting style. IT will get him killed in the ring but I can see how it could be very effective on the street. The problem comes when he tries to bridge hands when boxing. Leaves him way to open and since the gloves make it hard to grab and lock it mostly just leaves his head and ribs open to hooks.

Mutant 3 more weeks of boxing then we can get you feet back into it.

[Mutant]

Hey Guru, whats up?
Man, Marvin threw me ALL OVER the freakin place last night, hehe. At one point I caught one of his kicks (of course he'd taken some steam off it) and went to kick out his post leg and it was like kicking an oak tree, he didnt budge. He then dropped the leg I had trapped, right down on me and pile drived me into the mats, lol.
And then Jason beat me relentlously for awhile. Good class.
Yeah I'll be psyched to bring my kicks back into it, but I really do want to get my hands and head movement right first and break some of my old habits. I still think this old dog can learn some new tricks. See you soon.