Jing Lu, Chan Si Jin, Internal, External, Chi

[Fu-Pow]

I've been doing some thinking lately on some concepts that traditionally are associated with Taiji and other internal arts.

Specifically, Jing Lu theory and Chan Si Jin theory.

Jing Lu or "paths of strength" are closely associated with Chan Si Jin or spiral motion. Jing Lu follow a spiral path around the body.

In addition if we look at the human muscluature we find that it has a double helical structure or double "spiral" structure. People who study alexander technique know a lot about this.

So where am I going with this?

Well, I guess I'm wonder if these concepts are really unique to "internal" arts? It sure seems like my Choy Lay Fut has a lot of twisting and spiralling.

When talking about internal vs. external people tend to focus alot on Traditional Chinese Medical theory, Chi and Dao Yin less then the mechanical side like Chan Si Jin and Jing Lu theory.

It just seems that the more I train Taiji and CLF I see more similiarities in terms of what constitutes "good" or "correct" body mechanics even though the techniques and applications are quite a bit different.


__________________

[count]

I tend to avoid discussing martial arts in terms of internal vs. external. I guess one could make the distinction between cultivation and development. I think these things exist in all martial arts, just some systems seem to discuss them in those terms. Glad to hear your training is going along well. In what way are the techniques and applications so different? If your interested in the Alexander method, have read or practiced anything from the Feldenkrais methods?

[Fu-Pow]

I tend to avoid discussing martial arts in terms of internal vs. external. I guess one could make the distinction between cultivation and development.

I hear ya. How do you make the cultivation/development distinction?


I think these things exist in all martial arts, just some systems seem to discuss them in those terms.

I'm starting to think that these terms were fabricated after the fact, rather than being a philosophical base from which the arts developed. For example, Taiji is supposedly based on Taoism. And Taiji is supposed to "embody" Taoism. However, I think that this art and this philosophy were connected after the fact.




Thank you.

There are many "common denominators" of good kung fu, no matter the style, some examples:

Spiral motion (less joint stress, more torque)
Relaxed muscles until impact
Relaxed fluid movement
Belly button and tip of nose in alignment
Hips and shoulders in alignment
Knees point in same direction as toes
Elbows stay down
Shoulders stay down
Head slightly pulled up from the crown of the head
"Seated" wrists
Wuji/Zen empty, focused mind
Saat Hei, Sha Chi= an aura of destruction
Whole body including waist involved in the movement
etc, etc.

In CLF there is much more emphasis on striking and kicking. However, in order to do so efficiently and without stressing the joints you must including twisting motion.

In addition there are some movements in CLF that are essentially, "cheap shots" that might not be completely mechanically perfect but that hit your opponent from an unexpected angle.

In Taiji it seems like more emphasis on mechanical perfection.

[QUOTE]If your interested in the Alexander method, have read or practiced anything from the Feldenkrais methods?

I checked in on google. Sounds interesting. More emphasis on movement. I love the trademarks everywhere, somebody is making money.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

great points you describe-

Spiral motion (less joint stress, more torque)
Relaxed muscles until impact
Relaxed fluid movement
Belly button and tip of nose in alignment
Hips and shoulders in alignment
Knees point in same direction as toes
Elbows stay down
Shoulders stay down
Head slightly pulled up from the crown of the head
"Seated" wrists
Wuji/Zen empty, focused mind
Saat Hei, Sha Chi= an aura of destruction
Whole body including waist involved in the movement

as for chan su ching and jing lou- that is a really important for many reasons. in martial arts- the first thing as a beginner is to get your health. health is 12 meridians funtioning properly. basic chi kung and exercise does this. the student must be health and develop stamina. when the 12 meridans begin to have qi flow in them regularly the person gets stronger. tai chi, chi kung and health exercises do this.

later then the martial artist can do power training and open the 8 extraodinary meridians after collecting and "packing or storing" alot of qi. chan su ching is very much related to these 8 meridians which the martial artist must develope.



lastly the martial artist needs to cultivate centers that are deeper in the body and related to spiritual training. sitting mediation, still meditation does this. it needs the 12 meridians, 8 extraordinary and central channel to all function properly together.

ma

[Laughing Cow]

IMHO.

Too many people put too much emphasis on internal vs external, chen vs Yang and so on. What is authentic and was is not.

As was mentioned above I also believe that a LOT of things were later associated to arts and this, IMO, was again done by outsiders.

In the end it does not matter who invented silk-reeling, push-hands and similar stuff.
Or which art is more internal, etc.

[Muppet]

Jing Lu or "paths of strength" are closely associated with Chan Si Jin or spiral motion. Jing Lu follow a spiral path around the body.


The "path of strength" doesn't have to follow a spiral.

Taiji's silk reeling exercises to develop the "jing" are spiral, but there exercises in Hsing I which develop the same "jing" but without any spiraling.

The spiraling probably adds more power though, but at the cost of a more complex (and thus more difficult to master) movement.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I once observed a golfer's swing and noted some extraordinary spiral elements... good body mechanics are not unique to CMA.. Laughing Cow brings up a most interesting point.. it really isn't important who invented what or it's authenticity.. rather does it "work".. tradition can be profound or it can be a stagnant road-block. Internal vs. external arguements are roadblocks, distracting us from pursuit of what "works".. I am willing to examine many sources to add even one valid technique to my own personal body of experience, the source is not as important as its practicality.. that being said, i do try to keep additions to my repertoire consistent with CMA/CIMA values..

My long-time study of Taoist philosophy suggests that too much concern with the "names" of things degrades the personal experience of the thing itself.. meridians/channels/chakras, Yang/Chen, internal/external, etc... are not nearly as important as the experience they represent.. my personal choice is to describe these experiences with common english (western) concepts which are much more meaningfull to my students.. sure we associate these experiences with their "traditional" names, but we try not to get lost in vague translations.. we simply re-describe the experience in the context most familiar to our current experience..

Just another perspective, Be well..

[count]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
I hear ya. How do you make the cultivation/development distinction?

One is a process and the other effects the process.



I checked in on google. Sounds interesting. More emphasis on movement. I love the trademarks everywhere, somebody is making money.
The brain creates mental "stop" points. In the Feldenkrais method, the excercise confuses the brain and you forget the "stop" points which allows you to achieve maximum range of motion.

Muppet,
The Chan Su Jin is in Hsing-I. It may not be a large as in Tai Chi or Bagua, but is develped and discussed within the system. Some systems like Praying Mantis don't speak of it in those terms, but it is still there.

Great post (as usual) TCB


I think the common misunderstanding is that the power travels from one end on the spiral to the other. It shouldn't and doesn't. That would slow things up and confuse you. The "ancient" illustrations you see with the spiral going around the body to indicate the path are merly artist's interpretations. Remember, they are only 2 D, not 3 D and the don't represent a time point of reference.

[Muppet]

Spiraling is there, but it's not necessary.

Keep in mind that forms like Yang style's push (nearly identical to Hsing I's tiger) doesn't have any spiraling, except maybe at the elbows when compressing.

But the large, spiraling motions at the waist is absent yet it definitely takes advantage of the path of strength.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Again, i may be way off-base here, but.. It has been my experience that "spiraling" has two connotations.. one, as a movement.. two, as a description of energy..

Spiral energy, by my understanding, refers to the spring-like compression/expansion of the body/muscles.. the spring (a real one) expands in all directions and coils into a powerful compression.. in the case of the spring that is our body, our root (feet) direct the expansion in the vertical axis in one direction thereby doubling the power in that direction.. Hence the focus on good rooting.. i find this spiral energy in every movement (Yang, Chen, etc...), and i work to refine my ability to use it effectively..

Spiral movement, on the other hand, is a body alignment issue that takes advantage of spiral energy.. i think we often confuse the two.. spiral movement can be empty without a good spiral energy to support it.. spiral energy is of itself complete, needing only a means of expression..

Just another perspective, Be well..

PS. Thanks, Count.. <bows>..

[count]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob

Spiral energy, by my understanding, refers to the spring-like compression/expansion of the body/muscles.. the spring (a real one) expands in all directions and coils into a powerful compression.. in the case of the spring that is our body, our root (feet) direct the expansion in the vertical axis in one direction thereby doubling the power in that direction.. Hence the focus on good rooting.. i find this spiral energy in every movement (Yang, Chen, etc...), and i work to refine my ability to use it effectively..

Just another perspective, Be well..

PS. Thanks, Count.. <bows>..
[returns/bow] My understanding is a little different. True, like a spring but I believe the power originates in the center and expands outward in both directions simultaneously. Hitting the ground and the target and than compressing back together. If you are sitting at your computer, try standing up. You should feel it first in your abdomen and than your feet pushing back. I could be off base, and it could be a stylistic difference, but that's my perspective.:cool:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It is precisely the same perspective.. simply better described by you..

As the spring expands from the abdomen in both directions the floor directs (bounces) that energy in generally one direction, and.. with good training and proper alignment we further control the energy for application.. Martial arts, healing, pushing a car, etc..

Be well...

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

4th week now i have been receiving accupunture, herbs and massage.

I have been requesting additional taiji accupunture points. basically they are common points along the JING LOU. they are yin tang, ho ku, zusanli, gb 20 and li 11. there are a few other points but these are the most vital. they help with clearing bad chi, circulating chi, increase blood circulation and relaxation. all key to good taiji.

afterwards i have noticed that i have a different awareness when doing the taiji form.

someone said there is not much spiriling in yang style. i disagree. push "an" for exampe has alot of spiriling. when you move backwards from the ji "press" and adjust hands for push, your pushing out of the ground through left leg which sinks then pushes through the kua "valley" at the hip joint and rotating the hips and body as you transfer weight to the right leg. there is alot of coliling spiriling going on there. especially from foot, through back and expressed out the forearms to the hands.

Yang style actually has silk pulling while chen uses silk reeling.

yang style is 100% hidden power, while the chen shows obvious power even in lao jia. both in all combine the chi and muscels to work together and the spiriling and coiling sends qi throught the jing lou.

ma

[looking_up]

Ma,

Did you receive an injury? Or are you just trying to work on some
existing imbalances?

I'm curious about TCM, I'll probably go to school for it soon.

Thanks.

[Muppet]

someone said there is not much spiriling in yang style. i disagree. push "an" for exampe has alot of spiriling. when you move backwards from the ji "press" and adjust hands for push, your pushing out of the ground through left leg which sinks then pushes through the kua "valley" at the hip joint and rotating the hips and body as you transfer weight to the right leg. there is alot of coliling spiriling going on there. especially from foot, through back and expressed out the forearms to the hands.


Hmm, okay a different example then.

From a horse stance assuming the correct alignment, I can move the body sideways and sink into one leg while retaining the path of power. Even though I don't think I'm coiling here, maybe there's a subtle coiling going on that I'm not noticing--I go by feeling rather than form, so it wouldn't be surprising if I just never noticed it :P

Anyway, I'll have to check the mirror and experiment, but I'm not convinced yet that coiling is necessary to retain the path of power.

Incidentally, has anyone else found that the shoulder/arm is the HARDEST part to find and retain the path of power for? It's really frustrating, but I'm still having a hard time finding that sweet spot when it comes to the arms.

[Laughing Cow]

One of the best articles on Silk reeling I ever read came directly from the Yang Family Taiji Site.
:D

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Yes i have sports injuries that i see a doctor for. However the points i mentioned are "acupunture set for taijiquan"

good luck on your tcm research.

ma

[looking_up]

Ma,

I guess I shouldn't complain about my body's problems, at least they aren't injuries.

I'd be interested in hearing your take on silk pulling vs. silk reeling.

Thanks.

LU

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

tai chi chronicals book talkis about it.


silk pulling has to be even and slow when pulling silk from a worm or it will break. it cant be slow or the silk wont come out or fast or it will break. it is more yang style.

reeling is another power.



reeling-
1 : to wind on or as if on a reel
2 : to draw by reeling a line <reel a fish in>

[looking_up]

Ma,

Ok, I get it. I'll check out the chronicals sometime.

By the way, I checked out your website and was very impressed with the teachers. Esp. Xianhao Cheng, I like the idea of meeting the non-public taijiquan experts. I wonder if it is possible to find them in the U.S. or even China...

[ShaolinWood]

Why do I get the feeling that everyone is subtly hammering on Chen style? Yet saying that we shouldn't...

The origins of the both still comes from the same root.
I Love Taiji!!