Dragon vs. Tiger Symbol

[zen_celt]

In my experience with martial arts, I continue to come across the image of a dragon and a tiger fighting, often times on a yinyang. I also heard that it was the brand left on the forearms of Shaolin monks at the end of their trials before leaving the temple. I was wondering if any of you happen to know the meaning behind this symbol and where it came from.
Thanks in advance
-ZC

[mantis108]

In Taoism, dragon (blue) is of the wood element and tiger (white) is of the metal element. They represent the suppressive cycle. While the dragon (symbol of the emporer) rises just as the sun rises from the east, the tiger (powerful vassal usually of high military rank) subsides like the sun set at the west. If the dragon isn't strong enough the tiger would take it's place and becomes the dragon. It is a continuous cycle of change; hence, the expression "Dragon Tiger Wind Cloud" which each character is also a battle formations out of a total of nine in some Chinese military classics. Also dragon represent blood (the ying within the Yang) and tiger represent Chi (the yang within the ying). It must "strikes" a balance or else illness will result.

Mantis108

[David Jamieson]

It is indeed a Shaolin symbol that has roots in the esoteric thought of heaven and earth.

The forearm brands are debatable still because there is no actual hard evidence pointing out whether or not that was a practice of the monks at the temple.

Buddhist monks however do indeed brand themselves for a variety of reasons depending on the vows they take, they will brand their heads with numbers of dots to signify their vows.

BTW, the Dragon is Heaven and the Tiger is Earth. There is a lot of different meaning tied into their usage.

one of the things I have seen is a couplet that speaks of the Dragon and the Tiger meeting. it's a Choy Li Fut Couplet drawn from the Shaolin teachings within Choy li fut (cai li fo, choy lee fhut, et al).

My sifu has the couplet posted on his main page, here is the english translation:

" The Dragon and Tiger met at the Wind and Cloud; Disciples show respect and promote the martial art of Shaolin, so generation after generation of students remember and follow the Shaolin way"

k, that's all I got on it...for now :)

anyone else?

cheers

[Former castleva]

Also remember that tiger´s position in Korean culture and art is extremely strong,I think tiger as a symbol is for Korea what dragon is for Chinese (I´m sensing some tricky grammar here)

[SevenStar]

ZC, where the heck have you been hiding?

[David Jamieson]

I understand the Tiger, in relation to martial arts and asian culture in general goes so far back in time, it simply can't be traced to a root other than it's own primal essence.

The tiger is powerful, and likely was for thousands of years the most feared and revered being in existance for those peoples who knew of them.

Big Cats got it going on. :D

Dragons and the myths surrounding them exist in most every culture.

cheers

[Former castleva]

"I understand the Tiger, in relation to martial arts and asian culture in general goes so far back in time, it simply can't be traced to a root other than it's own primal essence."

Yeah,in that context the dragon is even more mysterious.

"The tiger is powerful, and likely was for thousands of years the most feared and revered being in existance for those peoples who knew of them.

Big Cats got it going on."

Too bad I believe some gigantic kitties that would probably inspire a style or two might possibly have been taken down by us somewhere around the ice age (referring to our ancestors and cats to the direction of sabretooth tigers)

[zen_celt]

Thanks for the info guys. I gather that the tiger/dragon is a symbol of balance as is yinyang and possibly the struggle(?) of heaven and Earth?

Kung Lek-what is the address of your sifu's website, if you don't mind, so I can read that article? Also, where can I find more on those Shaolin brands?

Sevenstar- I've been at Ft. Benning completing Army Basic Combat Training. I just got done two weeks ago and needed my KFO fix.

-ZC

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Zen Celt

Here is the link you want. It will take you to the flash entrance page. Once in the site, select the 'Kung Fu' button and then on that page select the 'Our Crest' button, which will give you the article.

Shaolin West kung Fu Kwoon (http://www.mts.net/~sillum/Index.htm)

GHD

[Budokan]

Tigers rule. Uh, unless you're a Detroit Tiger that is...

[Liokault]

Tigers rule.

Unless you like Chinese medicen.

[Former castleva]

"Tigers rule.

Unless you like Chinese medicen."

A sad case indeed.Culture related symbolism/myth is taken as a potential drug in the name of association,so to speak.
Black bears are also in danger and experiencing great losses and pain for this same reason.

[David Jamieson]

Well, there is a segment of TCM that calls for the use of animals and animals by-products, it is certainly not the mainstay of the practice.

Tigers and other big cats are protected species and the recipes that used to contain things such as tiger bone have been altered to use herbal substitutes the have the same efficacy.

There still exists some places where illegal trade in animal parts is happening to be sure and this is undesirable. The trade is suffering more in recent years and it is increasingly difficult to acquire animal parts. The penalties grow more and more severe for traffficing in them and so, more and more alternatives must be found. Eventually, there will be more knowledge of herbs and plants that can be used to get the same medicines.

Just to go a little off topic. :)

cheers

[Former castleva]

Kung Lek,
well that would be good.
I just remember hearing lately that a great amount of (already somewhat extinct) black bears would have been locked up for this purpose.

[once ronin]

A QUESTION TO MANTIS108,

why is the dragon of the east on the left and the white tiger of the west on the right?

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Dragon represents Yang
Tiger represents Yin

The Sun is Yang. Since it rises in the East, it is at it's most Yang state...so this equals 'Dragon'
When the sun sets in the West, it is at it's most Yin state, hence West equals 'Tiger'.

GHD

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
one of the things I have seen is a couplet that speaks of the Dragon and the Tiger meeting. it's a Choy Li Fut Couplet drawn from the Shaolin teachings within Choy li fut (cai li fo, choy lee fhut, et al).

My sifu has the couplet posted on his main page, here is the english translation:

" The Dragon and Tiger met at the Wind and Cloud; Disciples show respect and promote the martial art of Shaolin, so generation after generation of students remember and follow the Shaolin way"


From www.clfma.com the translation goes like this:

"When the Dragon and the Tiger meet,
the outcome will always be uncertain.
The disciple must be fully alert and careful
of the situation and continue to spread the
Shaolin techniques so as to keep the next
generation alive ".

Interesting variation in translation.

[once ronin]

gold horse dragon,

SO WHY IS THE THE PHRASE THE GREEN DRAGON ON THE LEFT AND WHITE TIGER ON THE RIGHT?

WHY IS THE SHAOLIN BURN MARKS OF THE URN THE GREEN DRAGON ON THE LEFT AND THE WHITE TIGER ON THE RIGHT?

[David Jamieson]

Once ronin.

South is the cardinal direction as opposed to "north" as our side of the world sees it.

when facing south (which is the starting point for most shaolin forms for example), east is left and west is right.

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by once ronin
gold horse dragon,

SO WHY IS THE THE PHRASE THE GREEN DRAGON ON THE LEFT AND WHITE TIGER ON THE RIGHT?]

left = yang, right = yin in the post Heaven sequence. In the pre-Heaven sequence, it is the reverse.


WHY IS THE SHAOLIN BURN MARKS OF THE URN THE GREEN DRAGON ON THE LEFT AND THE WHITE TIGER ON THE RIGHT? [/B]

Same as all the rest..but do not forget...these brands have not been proven or disproven yet.

Serp

The translation is a literal one and was done by a Chinese scholar. Your wording may be more of an 'interpretation' of the literal translation.

GHD

[Repulsive Monkey]

to be correct, in Taoism the Dragon and the Tiger are the true expressions of Yin and Yang. The Dragon is the heavenly Yang and the Tiger is the earthly Yin.

[mantis108]

Thanks for the question.

The traditional Chinese cardinal direction is indeed reversed that of the western tradition. The reason behind it is that the directions also represents the movement of the sun at a vertical plane. So the cardinal direction should rather be view as a 3-D map as oppose to a 2-D one. South would represent high noon, while north is where the sun starting to rise again. East-West axial is the horizon. The interesting thing about this is that the acient Chinese seemed to have recognize the fact that the sun crosses in the sky a little by the south and not directly over head. BTW, it is considered important as human beings that we face the bright side, look upward and forward. In other words, be possitive. ;)

As for the dragon and the tiger, there are 4 groups of constellations, each of 7 sets of constellations. The group in the east is known as the Blue Dragon and the group in the west is called the white tiger. This convention is wildly applied to many aspects of Chinese culture. For example, the landmark for blue dragon would be a stream on the east side together with a forrest on the west side would form a dragon and tiger formation. BTW, check out the movie "7 Samurai" the village plan is almost exactly this ideal formation. But that Japanese's Chinese connection for ya. ;) :D

Regards

Mantis108

[David Jamieson]

In the taoist models of pre heaven and post heaven, there is a reversal of how the Bagua is set up. And how the trigrams are arranged.

I'll dig up the ba guas I have and post them later to show the differences between pre and post heaven.

Not that they are directly related to the question, but they are related in some ways :D

ah yin and yang. the cause and solution to all lifes problems.

cheers

p.s most ancient cultures used South as the cardinal direction and not North. The Chinese, the Egyptians, the Greeks, etc, etc. All saw south as the chief direction and point of reference in regards to the world view geometrically and cosmologically.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
to be correct, in Taoism the Dragon and the Tiger are the true expressions of Yin and Yang. The Dragon is the heavenly Yang and the Tiger is the earthly Yin.

That has already been said in this thread :D

The Dragons throne (Emperor) was in the North of China. All subjects placed themselves in the South facing the seat of power. When the Ching invaded and took over China from the Ming, revolutionary martial artists gathered in Southern China to plot an overthrow of the Ching. These Southern based maritial artists, faced 'South' as an insult to the Ching and Emperor in the North of China and also placed themselves in a symbolic seat of power in the South.

Chinese philosophy and cosmology weaves itself in most endeavors and disciplines in ancient China from martial arts to medicine. For example the pre-heaven and post-heaven sequences of the trigrams even influence on what side you wear a sash - depending on what sequence you subsribe to (or if you want to place yourself very importantly - wear the knot in the middle - represents the 'Middle Kingdom')

GHD

[once ronin]

thank you all for the answers.

so does the east? on the left? does the sun still come up or rise in the mornings from the left or right of the earth.

in one of the past threads it states that the sun comes up from the east.

still not clear in the mud. sorry............

[David Jamieson]

once ronin-

the barrier is the whole concept of "left and right".

In truth, there is no left and right, nor is there any particular direction other than those we arbitrarily define for our own points of reference.

consider this:

we are on a sphere. A sphere has no sides. When you look down from above at the sphere, it appears to be turning clockwise, when you look up at it from below, it is moving counter clockwise.

The universe itself has no up, or down or east or west, it just is.

We make these definitions so that we are comfortable functioning in a world not of our own making.

If we did not make these categories of things and definitions further, we wouldn't understand them clearly in their pure state.
The pure state defies linguistic explanation, like the Tao or a state of bhodicitta (to use the religio philosophical terms inkeeping with the topic :) )

The symbolism of it all is to help the present and the next generation get to the point where they can glimpse and appreciate the pure state.

cheers

[David Jamieson]

Here is the pre and post heaven arrangements of the trigrams on the Ba Gua. Just for anyones curiosity.

You can use the I Ching to determine the names and meanings of the individual trigrams.

The judgements in the I Ching will tell you what the trigrams mean when they are combined.

as an aside, all earlier chinese maps are drawn with the top being south. So to is the arrangement of the baguas in both the pre and post heaven arrangements. The top is south.

cheers

[Liokault]

Kung Lek


Tigers and other big cats are protected species and the recipes that used to contain things such as tiger bone have been altered to use herbal substitutes the have the same efficacy.

And yet a local newsshow on TV found tigerbone wine on sale in my city. Now my city has a small Chinese comunity to say the least. This leads me to belive that no matter how much lip service is paid to protection of wild life the Chinese really dont care.

I agree that the herbal substitutes have the same efficancy as thr origianal product i.e non!

[David Jamieson]

Liokault-

How can you say "the Chinese don't care"?
That kind of a statement is just a little inflammatory.

I would question whether or not there is actually any bone in the wine. After all, I can get hungarian wine called Bulls Blood, but it doesn't contain any.

There are a wide variety of bu chiew (herbal tonic wines) that have names that include both real and mythical animals. They certainly don't contain any reptiles animals or unicorns in most of them. I also doubt there is a spirits factory in China that harvests tiger bones to include in their product. They would go out of business pretty quickly.

Point is, the problem is global and it is fed by people who want to possess these things. A great many of whom are european and north american.

cheers

[once ronin]

hello all thank you all for your patience.

so if the south represents high noon . which side does the sun come up from?

[David Jamieson]

once r-

you can do a very simple observation yourself.

stand facing south. observe how the directions are oriented in context to yourself.

there you go, your questions are answered :)

cheers

[mantis108]

Hi Once Ronin,

Try this:

1) standing face south. Get a compass if need be.

2)Extend your arms and forming a cross formation as in you know what... Your left hand should point east and your right hand points to the west. North is at your back.

3)Keep this formation and lay down on your back.

4)Now your face is facing the sky (high noon position/south) and your back of the head is now north on a vertical plane. Your feet point to south and your head is pointing north on a horizontal plane. Left hand is still east and right hand still west both on the vertical and horizontal planes.

Now of course, the oppose is truth as well. You can flip the whole thing around and look at it that way. But that's just plain argumentive and does not serve much purpose. If you are looking for the Chinese convention then the south is where you should be facing and east is on your left.

Would this help?

Warm regards

Mantis108

[once ronin]

thank you all for your patience.

i get it!

[TenTigers]

The bow is called Dragon and Tiger Emerge in our Hung-Ga.
The hands form the sun and moon,which when written in Chinese is the character,Ming. The dragon and Tiger represent the throne of the Emperor-and heavan and earth.
The poem for the sequence is ;
(fist and palm at chest)Our hearts are for the Ming Dynasty-
(ming symbol thrusts foward)warrior and priest fight together,side by side,
(back of wrists touch)back to back
(draw back into chabmer)they pull their country together.

[greendragon]

The Dragon represents internal or intrinsic energy - the Tiger represents physical strength or external energy.
When I asked master Lee (who writes all the fortune cookies), he said the Green Dragon is an antique shop and the White Tiger is a *****house in Chinatown.