Wing Chun and Firearms?????

[Geezer]

There are around "80 Million guns owners in the U.S.A." a percentage of those people must be practising MAs.

Question:How many people have applied their Knowledge/Understanding of Wing Chun Kuen to the use of firearms,I.E. Range, Self Defense, Military and so on?
Using the Knowedge/Understanding of good body structure(correct shooting posture) elbow position, breathing, relaxation and so on?

Now for the most part, MAs are responsible adults, and I would hope that that would carry over to the use of firearms. Are there any takers???

Sheldon;)

[canglong]

Geezer, good question. I'm interested in hearing some of the replies myself. I can't answer because the gun owners I know are not interested in hand to hand combat and most of the people in my kwoon aren't interested in getting shot lol, no seriously my daisihing is a police officer he may have a good answer for this I will see what input he might have to share.

[Geezer]

canglong wrote>

my daisihing is a police officer

Does your daisihing post here regularly?. Having lived in the States for only 7yrs now, I only recently became interetsed in the use of firearms, something I noticed between here and the UK, the UK has so many restictions on firearms there that it's near impossible for a private "LAW" abiding citizen to own one.
Now the criminals will always get guns which is evident here and accross the world, the UK has an attitude of letting society take care of you, which in a way takes away your right to defend yourself.

canglong Wrote>

I can't answer because the gun owners I know are not interested in hand to hand combat and most of the people in my kwoon aren't interested in getting shot

I guess I became interested after reading how a farmer in the UK a few years ago shot two burglars that broke into his house, he killed one of them and injured the other. He ended up getting a life sentence and then that was reduced to manslaughter on appeal.
I guess my thing is understanding combat accross the board un-armed and armed.

Sheldon;)

[canglong]

Geezer,
My, Daisihing has an account but as to how often he post I am unsure. Like I say though I will forward your questioning to him so that he knows the question is out there.

Yeah, the amount of people arrested for what amounts to self defense is staggering isn't it? The thing about that is or atleast hear in Arizona is you have to let the assailant get as close to you as possible then its called immanent danger and then pow you got 'em and the courts will let that go purely as self defense, from what I understand.

[yuanfen]

Canglong sez:

The thing about that is or atleast hear in Arizona is you have to let the assailant get as close to you as possible then its called immanent danger and then pow you got 'em and the courts will let that go purely as self defense, from what I understand.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on many things- factual details, nature of the jury,
county attorney( if not on an Indian reservation or other federal jusrisdiction) discretion on the specific charge and related evidentiary requirements, quality of defense counsel...
not always a simple matter in spite of the remnants of the wild west. In addition to the criminal issue--- civil issues can be there as well.
Complex--- taking of a human life should be.

[reneritchie]

Read Masaad Ayoob's "Stressfire". WCK/JKD applied to combat handgunning for law enforcement and self defense. Excellent stuff.


80 Million guns owners in the U.S.A.

Awful lot of stray bullets. Keep 'em below the 49th, fellas.

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Awful lot of stray bullets. Keep 'em below the 49th, fellas.

There are 1.9 million licensed gun owners in Canada, what's your take on this Rene????

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

I used to have a friend who owned a gun shop, and went with him several times to test fire weapons, got to try many different kinds of hand guns, rifles, and shotguns. Even got to blast away on some wooden Chinese statues with a Hakim. It was like Nintendo, only smellier.

My take is that we're altogether a rather immature species still, and kids like toys. Then again, if the Aliens decide to invade, maybe they'll choose an even less-armed country, if there is is one.

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

My take is that we're altogether a rather immature species still, and kids like toys.

And I understand where you're coming from, except I'm not talking about arming myself to the hilt just applying our WCK to the use of firearms probably similiar to the use of the LDBK or BJD.

Sheldon;)

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

My take is that we're altogether a rather immature species still, and kids like toys.

Something I noticed while reading up on firearms was that you have(I think) fives times more of a chance of beening attacked by gun point in London than New York. Now something else that caught my eye was that in America, burglars are less likely to invade your home at night for fear you may have a gun. Now in London, burglars don't care if your in or not because they don't have that fear of retribution, so big boys and toys.......I think not.

I would prefer in the situation of a Woman being attacked, to be explaining to the Police why her would be attacker has his brains blown out, rather than the Police explaining to her Husband that she was killed with her own pair of stockings after he raped her.


Sheldon

[tparkerkfo]

Hi guys,

I am no expert guy shooter or a gun nut or anything like that. I shot a few guns growing up, a lot in the military, shoot several every year, and own one hand gun. I was trained with rifles, handguns, machine guns, and a 150 mm main gun for the M1A1 Abrams [Insert Tim Allen Grunt's]. I took a law enforcement course that discussed weapon tactics. I know a little about them, but not a lot.

I don't see a lot of connection between wing chun and shooting. Atleast nothing specific to wing chun. The shooting stances I am familiar with are different than my wing chun. I would say it is closer to some other versions of wing chun that stand in a 50/50 bik ma. I was going to write that my shoulders are not squared up when I shoot, but as I just did a double check, I guess I do face like I would in wing chun.

Some of the characteristics I think are important in both, but not specific to wing chun, would be relaxation, firm but yielding, focus, intent, shoulders down, solid stance, natural breathing, calm and alert manner. These traits can probably be assigned to most any fighting art though.

As far as guns go, I think Rene hit the nail on the head. We are "rather immature species" and although I feel we should have the right to have guns, not every one is trustworthy to have one. To many idiots. My gun is my toy. I don't pretend it is for self defense or as an excercise of my rights, just a toy. As I have kids, it is hard to keep it availible for selfdefense AND locked up to prevent a nasty situation. But it is there if I need it, and when I go camping.

Tom
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[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

Some of the characteristics I think are important in both, but not specific to wing chun, would be relaxation, firm but yielding, focus, intent, shoulders down, solid stance, natural breathing, calm and alert manner. These traits can probably be assigned to most any fighting art though.

Is this somethig that you were made aware of in the Military, or something that made sense from your MAs. You know like breath in and breath out...shoot.

Tom Wrote>

I feel we should have the right to have guns, not every one is trustworthy to have one. To many idiots.

Agreed.....110%

Tom Wrote>

My gun is my toy. I don't pretend it is for self defense or as an excercise of my rights, just a toy.

I don't like to think of them as TOYS because for me that seems too reckless, if you mean in the sense of a Hotrod(similar) then I can understand.

Tom Wrote>

As I have kids, it is hard to keep it availible for selfdefense AND locked up to prevent a nasty situation.

That's something that troubled me for a while as my In-Laws foster child stay's with us all the time(she's Two and my wife's second cousin) but I've made sure that the gun is in a seprate place to the ammo but cn be loaded in a hurry.


Sheldon;)

[foolinthedeck]

the UK has an attitude of letting society take care of you, which in a way takes away your right to defend yourself

how do mean geezer?
i'df rather let society take care of me than let america do it, fo what thats worth.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon,

For me, breathing is different in martial arts and shooting. As I mentioned, I am not an expert on either, but I have some training in booth. I jsut say that because I want it pointed out that I am not just tossing "ideas" around. Wing Chun doesn't seem to have specific breathing patterns. Hung Gar does a little. In both arts, strikes tend to occur while your exhaling, and closer to the end of the breath. Of course fighting is fluid and dynamic, so one can not always time it just right. But it tends to be the case. I think one boxer or something mentioned he likes to attack if he notices the opponent inhaling, or something like that. Not much of an edge, but every little thing can make a differece.

Anyways, breathing when shooting is different. To shoot well you need a stable base to shoot from. Any tremor will have an effect on the shooting. Two of the most important things to train is trigger squeeze and breathing. Holding the gun is relativly easy. But the trigger squeeze and breathing are much more difficult and vital. It is funny because the trigger squeeze thing ruins most movies for me as they have some "expert" shooting, but of course the actor doesn't know how to really pull the trigger in most movies. LOL. The trigger squeeze is when you use ONLY the tip of the index finger to pull the trigger. Most people cirl the finger all the way in. This causes a pull to where the back of that hand is, to the right in most cases. And it is a simple slow and even squeeze that should almost startle you when the gun goes off.

The breathing should be shallow, rythmic, and steady. You would ideally fire between cycles of breathing. Never should you fire when the Lungs are Full or Empty and while transitioning. Best while your exhaling or inhaling. I have hears dome say it should be the same if you got the chance. The reason you don't want to do it at the extremes is because the air in the diaphram can cause the body to move about. If you hold the gun out and breath, you can watch the gun go up and down with your breaths.

By toys I just mean a fun thing, hobby etc. I have always respected them and realize their danger. I was taught you never aim a gun at any one unless you intend on killing them. Guns can cause a nervious reaction to those uncomfortable with them. They are harmless in and of themselves, it is the people that need the watching. LOL. I think back to my army days and we had guns ALL the time. THey really were toys in many respects. However, things usualy got much more serious when the rounds were availible durring shooting practice.

Guns and kids are touchy. I want my kids to be familiar and respectful of them. But I still don't want them accessible. Accidents do happen. I don't let my kids run into traffic either. Common sense needs to be the guide. My sister in law locks here up when we come over. My father in law are all in a cabnit that is locked. Mine are locked. My oldest has shoot. My youngest will shoot maybe next year.

Tom
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[anerlich]

Mike Parriski wrote an article about WC and pistol shooting. It's on Rene's site somewhere.

[mun hung]

That's what I call "economy of motion" - Bang! You're dead.

[Geezer]

foolinthedeck Wrote>

i'df rather let society take care of me than let america do it, fo what thats worth.

When I talk about Society taking care of you, that's the attitude that the UK has adpoted over the years(100+yrs), they think that the Police should take care of you in times of trouble but more often than not.....they just turn up to pick up the pieces!!!!

In America due largely to the 2nd Amendment, it's our right to bear arms to defend our familys and homes(small part of it) in the UK they had something similar, which I found the other day but like I said over the years it was ruled out.

Something else that is quite evident is that like I said earlier you have more chance now of an aggresive attack via gunpoint in London than you do New York.

Completely doing away with the right to defend yourself does not work, I much prefer the idea that if something was to happen(God Forbid) the Police would be coming to pick up the would be attackers pieces and not a memeber of my familys.

How many burglaries do they show on Crimewatch a month??? now if the question comes up that there are more guns crimes in America....you have to remember how large it is and look at the percentages.

I'm new to the World of Firearms so I realize that I have to step very carefully and respect what I have in my hands.

Sheldon;)

P.S.If you didn't already know I'm from London

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

For me, breathing is different in martial arts and shooting. As I mentioned, I am not an expert on either, but I have some training in booth. I jsut say that because I want it pointed out that I am not just tossing "ideas" around. Wing Chun doesn't seem to have specific breathing patterns. Hung Gar does a little. In both arts, strikes tend to occur while your exhaling, and closer to the end of the breath.

I guess...I'm applying my MAs to the use of guns so I guess my breathing patterns are similar to how you were trained in the Military. When you punch like you said it's when you exhale, so I thought this would apply to pulling the trigger....maybe that's the point of being most relaxed????.

Tom Wrote>

By toys I just mean a fun thing, hobby etc.

I thought so.....that's why I mentioned Hotrods, I know you're into cars, ;)

Tom Wrote>

I was taught you never aim a gun at any one unless you intend on killing them.

YES

Tom Wrote>

Guns can cause a nervious reaction to those uncomfortable with them.

I was that way.......so I read up on them, learnt what was what.....now I'm getting the hands on.

Tom Wrote>

They are harmless in and of themselves, it is the people that need the watching. LOL.

YES....as we've heard many a time....guns don't kill people....people kill people and the guns help.

Tom Wrote>

I want my kids to be familiar and respectful of them. But I still don't want them accessible. Accidents do happen. I don't let my kids run into traffic either. Common sense needs to be the guide.

Agreed......110%


Tom.....I think this needs to go down in history I think this is the first time I've agreed with you 100%:D

Sheldon;)

P.S.Tom Wrote>

150 mm main gun for the M1A1 Abrams

Damm......my FFL keeps on telling me he's getting a Barrett .50 and he wants me to be the firstto shoot it....but 150MM....Dammm
:D

[Geezer]

foolinthedeck Wrote>

i'df rather let society take care of me than let america do it, fo what thats worth.

Perfect example of what I was saying, this is taken from the Sun newspaper,


Lawyers back burglars

FURY erupted last night after David Blunkett’s lawyers said burglars need protection from householders.

They insist villains deserve to be treated like any member of the public — and MUST be able to sue homeowners who attack them during a break-in.

The Home Secretary’s lawyers will make their bizarre argument to High Court judges today in a legal bid to block a parole claim by jailed farmer Tony Martin.

Tony Martin is the guy I mentioned earlier, that shot two burglars,


The barmy advice last night threatened Tony Blair’s promise to be “tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime”.

Mr Blunkett last night insisted he had nothing to do with the ruling.

His aides refused to condemn it — confirming that criminals are entitled to rights.

But Shadow Home Secretary Oliver Letwin said: “This is the height of absurdity. The Home Secretary said to me he would back my amendment to the Criminal Justice Bill, blocking burglars who try to sue for damage done to them while burgling.

“Now his department appears to be going in the opposite direction.

“The world has clearly gone mad. Why on earth should I be able to sue for things that happen while I am in the process of burgling?”

Furious Norman Brennan, of the Victims of Crime Trust, said: “The public are sick and tired of all these organisations pandering to the offender.

“Burglars forfeit any rights they have when they commit a crime.”

Mr Martin, 58, has served four years for manslaughter after killing 16-year-old burglar Fred Barras.

But today Home Office lawyers will say Mr Martin is still a threat to burglars — and must not be let out early.

Leaked papers show they believe burglars should be guaranteed protection from homeowners who try to protect their properties.

The document says: “It cannot possibly be suggested that members of the public cease to be members of the public whilst committing criminal offences.”

Mr Martin has refused to show remorse for shooting his burglars and until he does cannot be considered for parole.

A second burglar shot by Mr Martin — Brendon Fearon — had his claim for damages thrown out by a Nottingham court. But Fearon, 33, managed to sue with legal aid.

Norfolk farmer Mr Martin will be freed in July but today High Court judges will consider a case review.

I still prefer the idea that I can protect my Family and home and not be punished for it;)

Sheldon

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003202323,00.html

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon,

Gotta disagree with you in the above, I think we agreed one other time way back when.:D

The 150mm is indeed an awsome thing. LOL. The closest thing I have experienced is standing behind dragsters as they launch of the line. Incredible!!!

I will relate my thoughts on the police and the constitution. This is based on what I learned after taking many law enforcement courses. I was considering becoming a cop while I was in the Army. I took most of the core courses for a law enforcement degree. Some of which were constitutional related and others entailed the history of law enforcement. My thoughts may not be correct, but it is how I see it.

The Consitution as I understand it is a special document. What it does is to give the government authority as well as checks on those authority. I think people misinterprete the Constitution way too often for their own purposes. I don't think the intent is for the Constitution to give people the right to protect themselves, as certain rights are self evident, to quote Jefferson. Rather, the constitution puts a check on the governments ability to remove the right. A subtle but distinct difference. One is granting something, which we say can not be granted. Things granted can be taken away. But instead we say that the government does not have the authority to do certain things. This is all theory and of course in practice it is implemented many differnt ways in accordance with what the people are willing to do.

The us really did not have a police force for a long time. I can't remember when the first law enforcement agency was created, but I think it was late 1800's or early 1900's. These would be city police rather than Sherriffs and Marshalls that are a little bit different. That meant for a significant time, people HAD to provide their own protection. This idea and concept I think was part of our experience and makes up who Americans are. Many parts of the US remained "wild" for a long period and the citizens had to rely on themselves.

Police in the US have changed philosphies many times over the years. Today's law enforcement agencies are proactive, meaning they don't sit around waiting for something to happen. They patrol and try to be in hot spots. Other places are much more reactive. Germany for example has the Politzei that from what I understand don't activly patrol. They respond after the fact. Of course this is a gerneralization.

My thoughts are that Police officers cannot and should not be used as a means to protect yourself. Their duty is to protect and to server, however they can not be every where at once. Nor do they really pretend they can. We are still primarily responsible for our safety. Though it seems every year we give away a little bit more to a police force in the hopes they will protect us, a task they simply cannot do.

Just some of my thoughts
Tom
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[Phil Redmond]

My Sifu, William Cheung, works with and trains law enforcement and military people. He began a course to help law enforcement personnel keep calm during firefights. The reason he started teaching this is because a study was made that showed most gunfights occur within a few feet of the perpretrator. The strange thing is that the hit miss ratio was bad. The police officers missed more that they hit. I experienced the same thing that happened to the police during my first firefight in Vietnam. There is a term for what happens, I don't remember what it is offhand. Maybe someone here does. Anyway, you suffer from some sort of sensory depravation. You lose your sense of smell, hearing and you develop a sort of tunnel vision causing you to lose your firing accuracy. Form what I'm hearing WCK has helped these officers.
Phil

[Geezer]

Phil wrote>

There is a term for what happens, I don't remember what it is offhand. Maybe someone here does.

Not the "Thousand Yard Stare" ??????

Sheldon

[Phil Redmond]

Marine Corps snipers as well as all Marines are taught to inhale then exhale half way before shooting at a target. There is a stability test used as an example when holding the breath, inhaling, and exhaling.

Geezer,
Michigan recently passed a law that anyone that doesn't have a felony conviction can get a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The State had to hire extra clerks to process the hoards of applicants...lol. Now you never know who might be packing in Detroit or anywhere else in the State of Michigan.
Phil

[Geezer]

Phil Wrote>

Marine Corps snipers as well as all Marines are taught to inhale then exhale half way before shooting at a target.

Is this taught across the board i.e. Army, Navy and Air????


Phil Wrote>

Now you never know who might be packing in Dertoit or anywhere else in the State of Michigan.

And you wouldn't believe how much of a deterent this is against voilent crime, statistics show the states that do have the CCW have experienced a drop.....I'm just waiting for Ohio to pass the CCW;)

Sheldon

[Phil Redmond]

I think you're right. Seems like most of the applicants were form the suburbs and people that have to work in Detroit...lol
It is a common know fact that Marines are the best shots. You must re-qualify evey year. There are 3 catagories of shooters, marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. Those with the marksmanship badge were looked down upon in my day.
Phil

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Phil and Geezer,

Yes, the same breathing is still used to train. I don't know about the other services, but the Army uses the breath in and out. The shot occurs halfway durring exhalation. Never on the top or bottom of the breath, the transition.

Phil, I am not sure if the Marines are the best shoots. LOL. THey may be, but I am not so sure. The Army also has sniper and elite units. I would say that the Marines probably place greater emphisis on shooting than the army and that the Marines have a greater percentage of good shooters. But snippers of both services and the training are good for both. I had a friend in Germany that was a Marine Sniper until he fell off a tower. He was discharged due to injuries. He later joined the Army, they didn't care about the particular injury but the Marines wouldn't take him back.

The Army also has the Marksman, Sharpshooter, and expert badges. I always get them mixed up which is the highest. I always scored the highes except once. That actually doesn't mean much as the standards are not really that difficult. As long as you a decent shot and follow basic shooting principles, you hit the targets. The pistol qualification course is very easy if you know your weapon. The rifle qualification is not to bad, though the long range shots are a bit hard. My problem was trying to focus my eyes on the target. We had a family day once and my wife was able to shoot an M16. LOL, she also scored the highest, which I think is expert. No training.

Tom
________
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[Geezer]

So what about structure, I read somewhere the other day that when shooting rifles, assault weapons the elbow needs to be down????

Sheldon:)

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

I am not sure if the Marines are the best shoots. LOL.

Didn't want to get into this one:D I have two great Uncles that are retired Royal Marine Commandos and another that was a Para.

Sheldon;)

[Phil Redmond]

Hey guys,
I'm supposed to say the Marine are the best....lol

I know that shooters are indivduals like WChunners.

Marksman is the lowest, then sharpshooter and expert is the best.
Phil

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon,

Yeah, it was a bit of a jab to Phil. LOL. I expect a body blow in return. LOL

I am going to assume you mean hand gun and not rifle shooting. And I assume you mean standing. I may be exceeding my experience in both shooting and wing chun in this post. But oh well, not the first time. When shooting you need a stable base. What ever it takes. With a rifle, you can lie prone or use some sort of support. The worst is standing as you have less support. With hand guns, your probably in a dire situation, if your in the military. But in any case you want to create the stablest base you can. Good solid stance and you want to support the weapon. I think there are different techniques on holding a handgun. I was taught the best is the cup and saucer, if I recall correctly. The firing hand is wrapped around the grips(cup) and the other hand supports the gun in the palm (saucer). The elbows are close to the sides rather than flying out. I would say it is similar to wing chun in that the elbows in make a solid base, but I wouldn't go to the wing chun extreme.

I actually had a training manual for handgun shooting but I think I lent it to my sister inlaw. It discussed many of the techniques. I do have one for the M16 though.

Tom
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[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

Yeah, it was a bit of a jab to Phil. LOL.

I know.....that's why I threw the Royal Marines and Para out there....it's amazing how much of a rivalry there is between those two groups.

Tom Wrote>

I am going to assume you mean hand gun and not rifle shooting.

No......it was an Assault weapon he was talking about, I couldn't quite understand why....but again I related it to WCK.

Tom Wrote>

I was taught the best is the cup and saucer, if I recall correctly. The firing hand is wrapped around the grips(cup) and the other hand supports the gun in the palm (saucer). The elbows are close to the sides rather than flying out.

So you nedver learnt the Gangsta style then......where your hand is about a foot above your head turned sideways...LOL, only kidding, no this makes complete sense to me.

Tom Wrote>

I do have one for the M16 though.

I have the M16s rival;)

Sheldon

[yuanfen]

FWIW- I am not a particular fan of guns--- some of the best gun men I have known are either dead or in prison.

[Geezer]

yuanfen Wrote>

FWIW- I am not a particular fan of guns--- some of the best gun men I have known are either dead or in prison.

I respect that Joy....."different strokes for different folks"....but please take into account not all responsible mature gun owners are Criminals or Terrorists;)

Sheldon

P.S.The only people that should own/have guns are the ones that pass the background check but like I said Criminals or Terrorists will always have access to illlegal weapons:(