Are MA really useful for Self Defense?

[Laughing Cow]

Just a quick question.

Are MA really useful for Self Defense purpose?
For me MA are fighting arts and not SD-arts.

I also don't know of many stories where masters of old used their MA against the dark alley assault or similar.

Yes, they were fighters that did challenge matches, duels and partook in fights, but did they use it to prevent muggings and similar?

Laws also haven't changed that much during the centuries, in fact I think we could say that they got more lenient.

Example:
Chen Wang Ting hid back in his village after killing an opponent during a fight in order to prevent prosecution and possible execution.

Most places also forbad duelling and similar thus we got "secret" rooftop fights and so on.

What's your opinion & take on the subject?

[rogue]

Fighting is a sometimes part of self defense. The difference that I've been taught is fighting/combat is mutual to both parties be it Campas and De La Hoya in the ring or Special Forces and al Queda in Afghanistan with the goal to defeat the other party. Self defense is initiated by one party (the aggressor) with the goal of the other party (defender) being to survive.

[Laughing Cow]

Agreed that MA can be used/adapted for SD, but it is not their prime-purpose or the goal towards which they were created for.

For me there is a difference between winning a fight and surviving a confrontation.

;)

[sing fu]

This might be a CMA thing. Take a look at aikido, or late edo-period jujutsu for example - both arts have virtually no "offensive movements", whereas CMA moves in/out with both defensive and offensive tactics all the time.

It might be the Japanese arts, which were considered more defensive, earned the name "self defence" before the public at large were able to see more balanced systems like many CMA.

To bring the thread back to its central focus, I agree CMA are fighting arts primarily, although can be used for self defence. Some arts are self defense only though, and aren't fighting arts, making the two areas often shared, but not always one and the same with all arts.

[joedoe]

Self defence is a broad term and can be a little misleading. Sometimes defence is not defence but offence :). And self defence covers so much more than how to handle an attacker - it also encompasses avoiding the situations where you might be attacked.

I think MA is about the art of fighting, not just defence. While it has useful applications in self defence, its primary aim was not just defence.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by sing fu
This might be a CMA thing. Take a look at aikido, or late edo-period jujutsu for example - ...

Agreed, considering that during and after the Edo period japan was united and pretty much at peace.
Which is in stark contrast to the muromachi and earlier periods.

Cheers.

[LEGEND]

"What's your opinion & take on the subject?"

Well I've seen quite a few real fights. I've seen BOXING used quite easily. I've seen Wrestling( double leg ) used. I've even seen the judo/karate/CMA foot sweep while controlling an opponent in the clinch used also. I think any style can be used as long as u can control your FEAR and ANGER.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by LEGEND
I think any style can be used as long as u can control your FEAR and ANGER.

And THAT is the tough part.

Around where I live we recently had a series of random attacks involving:
1.) Drive-by slashings.
2.) Acid being thrown at targets
3.) Random knife attacks where the attacker suddenly appears and starts slashing and stabbing.

OK, said that make that 4 attacks in a City of a few Million, but it makes you think how well are we prepared for those random violent attacks.

Cheers.

[Shuul Vis]

The answer is yes.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


And THAT is the tough part.

Around where I live we recently had a series of random attacks involving:
1.) Drive-by slashings.
2.) Acid being thrown at targets
3.) Random knife attacks where the attacker suddenly appears and starts slashing and stabbing.

OK, said that make that 4 attacks in a City of a few Million, but it makes you think how well are we prepared for those random violent attacks.

Cheers.

But that is akin to asking how a MA would defend against a sniper attack. You can train your environmental awareness to a certain point, but sometimes there are things that you just cannot defend against unless you choose to live a life of paranoia.

[LEGEND]

LOL...at the SNIPER attack. I was paranoid as hell! I hope those 2 *******s FRY!!!

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by joedoe
But that is akin to asking how a MA would defend against a sniper attack. You can train your environmental awareness to a certain point, but sometimes there are things that you just cannot defend against unless you choose to live a life of paranoia.

Of course, you can't prepare for all eventuality.

But does going to the kwoon and exercising your forms and sparring prepare you any better than NOT being trained in MA at all??

IMO, most of the MA styles teach you do fight, but not the skills to survive the urban jungle even though they many claim to teach SD and similar.

[joedoe]

Like I said before, self defence is such a broad term. Ultimately MA mostly try to train you for the combat scenario of self defence, and other aspects take 2nd place.

I can't think of any self defence advice (other than not being there) that you could give that would help someone protect themselves from a drive-by. Usually that kind of thing is being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by joedoe
Like I said before, self defence is such a broad term. Ultimately MA mostly try to train you for the combat scenario of self defence, and other aspects take 2nd place.


And this why I am asking are MA really good for SD. IMHO, it is the other aspects that have the most value in SD.

Too many people sign up for SD thinking that by winning a Pub fight they defended themselves.
Or to beat off someone that wants to fight with them in a pub or similar location. THAT is not SD in my book.



I can't think of any self defence advice (other than not being there) that you could give that would help someone protect themselves from a drive-by. Usually that kind of thing is being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is NO way to defend yourself against a long range weapon attack, besides wearing armour.

Personally, I am not too worried about the slashing and acid attacks unless the go for my face.
I got a good and sturdy leather jacket that will protect me and is designed to take a LOT of damage.
;)

[joedoe]

As they say, the best defence is to not be there. ;) If you know how to avoid the crappy situations, then you are less likely to need the combat aspects of self defence. Environmental awareness and common sense are your most important self defence weapons :)

[sing fu]

I agree with the sentiment SD training is often neglected or not taught at all in martial arts - instead most of the focus is on combative skills.

Some arts/teachers might teach environmental considerations, or preparation for combat in situations you are aware of potential conflict at hand though. Personally, I don't think awareness need compared with paranoia though - we might consider that this same awareness of others in daily life is also known as consideration, with both being forms of a similar consciousness.

[Laughing Cow]

Sing Fu.

I have been taught some awareness techniques and methods.
Like with the physical side on the mental side a lot of "habits" and "patterns" have to be unlearned and re-wired.

It is actually scary how much we "ignore" and mislabel of what our senses tell us, a lot of this is partly due to the massive amount of information that our senses receive in modern life.

Again relaxation and calmness play a big factor here.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by sing fu
I agree with the sentiment SD training is often neglected or not taught at all in martial arts - instead most of the focus is on combative skills.

Some arts/teachers might teach environmental considerations, or preparation for combat in situations you are aware of potential conflict at hand though. Personally, I don't think awareness need compared with paranoia though - we might consider that this same awareness of others in daily life is also known as consideration, with both being forms of a similar consciousness.

The reason I used the term paranoia was with respect to the idea of defending yourself from a drive-by or a sniper attack. If you were to prepare yourself for that kind of eventuality outside of a war situation, you would probably be considered paranoid ;)

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by joedoe
The reason I used the term paranoia was with respect to the idea of defending yourself from a drive-by or a sniper attack. If you were to prepare yourself for that kind of eventuality outside of a war situation, you would probably be considered paranoid ;)

Not if there is a high possibility of it actually happening.
BTW, I was talking about a drive-by slashing, no guns or any other form of firearm involved.

Cheers.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


Not if there is a high possibility of it actually happening.
BTW, I was talking about a drive-by slashing, no guns or any other form of firearm involved.

Cheers.

That's why I mentioned the war scenario ;)

[sing fu]

:) Haha - agreed Joedoe. Not much chance of it happening, but you should still train your awareness. Hope you'll excuse my twisting of your example there for my own illustration.

I think awareness and consideration are some of the gifts martial arts offers. I once asked one teacher if awareness could be maintained even during moments of intimacy. He acknowledged it was.

We were also talking about sudden attacks, as well as muggings etc weren't we! Should physical/verbal situational set ups (such as approaches by potential muggers, rapists etc) be taught to students?

Laughing Cow, are you still in the big smoke?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by sing fu
Laughing Cow, are you still in the big smoke?

Yep, still here. No plans of shifting domicile for the next few years.

;)

[David Jamieson]

Yes they are if they are delivered in that context.

For instance, break out several techniques and practice them in keeping with the ideas of scenarios of self defence.

example: sitting in a chair being attacked from the side, the front, from behind.

example: a confined space with a larger attacker.

and well, you can come up with a lot of scenarios where you feel your art would be most compromised by the situation itself and maybe even the geography.

Once you know where the weakness is, you can begin to make it stronger through practice.

So, to answer the first question. Martial "arts" are indeed highly useful in bringing yourself to being better able to defend yourself.

You have to approach and learn iwth the right spirit and not be too worried about how you look kicking, or if you can beat your opponent at sparring and all that. Cut away all the grist and your own preconceptions and you will learn faster.

cheers

[Former castleva]

You learn "Self-Defense" in order to counter "Fighting".
If this makes sense.

[Black Jack]

As rogue stated I think the physical combatives side as one part of the entire package. I also believe that if a person is to consider themselves complete in self defense training in a physical sense then they should look at and have some training in all the elements that can be used in force. From less than lethal-oc spray to impact weapons- to lethal measurments such as firearms training and knives.

Even if you do not own or wish to carry a weapon it does not hurt to know how one works and by doing so you will get a better grasp on how to defend against it.

[Ford Prefect]

Size, confidence, and awareness are more important than MA, IMO.

[David Jamieson]

Well Ford, what do you do when you are by nature small.

Confidence and awareness can be had by all and if nothing else are enhanced through martial arts practice.

I don't agree that size always wins.

cheers

[The Yellow Dart]

I think a lot of MA schools attempt to teach self defense, but do it an a very unrealistic fashion.

For example, learning to defend against a lapel grab where the attacker just walks up, grabs your shirt, and stands there, vs. the attacker who grabs you with full intent, shoving you backwards and getting ready to clock you with his other hand. If your self defense practice involves situations more like the second than the first, you're ahead of the game.

[Mr.Sleazy]

I'm with Laughing Cow on this one.

I can only speak for myself, but really what I am learning is how to fight, not how to defend myself vs an assault or carjacking (etc.). This doesn't really bother me, either.

Self defence is such a vast and complex area that its hard to even talk about it because there are so many different situations, scenarios and exceptions to rules.

There is some crossover, of course - knowing how to fight MAY help you in some SD situations. Of course, it may also play against you and make you statistically more likely to get in trouble, for instance if you try to interfere in an assault or a brawl, you may end up in a SD situation unwittingly.

So overall, martial arts can improve your self defence skills, but this effect is probably fairly minimal.

The best self defence training.....









Get rich.

[ZIM]

I'm not exactly sure why, but this strikes me as a little silly...

Ok, here it is: it seems the topic divvies SD and "combat" up, and alot of you are saying that MAs don't really focus on 'awareness' and 'prevention' or whatever.

Now, it's VERY simple to study that, if thats what you want. Find yourself the *skinniest, ugliest, geekiest, NERD* who lives in most inhospitable part of your own city and ASK him 'How the heck have YOU lived so LONG?'

There's your sifu... :p :rolleyes:

edit: actually, I guess if you did that and were hangin' out with him regularly, you'd learn about "combat" too.

[norther practitioner]

I still fail to see the difference. Combative skills include self defense...being the definition of self defense defending ones self against an attack (ok, I know that I used the term in its own definition, but come on... I think we know where I am going).
Any time you are attacked, you should be on the defense in some regard, if you can turn that into offensive manuvering, so be it.

[Laughing Cow]

NP.

One question have you ever been mugged or similar?

I have and it does not happen as shown in the movies.
IME, there are two types of muggers:

1.) Who do it do survive, those tend to be rather harmless. Most of those are opportunists and are only interested in money or maybe goods that they can sell cheaply.

2.) Those that mug for a "BOSS" or are part of a group and have to bring in a quota or similar, those will just a happy slice you as spit in your face.
These guys tend to operate in groups and there tend to be more than you see.
They know exactly what they are after CC, Car keys, Guns, etc.

I still tand by what I said that STANDARD MA training does not incorporate much on the SD side, as those arts were designed to fight other MA.

Cheers.

[norther practitioner]

2.) Those that mug for a "BOSS" or are part of a group and have to bring in a quota or similar, those will just a happy slice you as spit in your face.

Geez, didn't realize that the mob was into mugging still.....:D

I've never been mugged. I've been jumped, and my martial arts training has definitely helped me there, being able to throw punches, know where to grab, and know when to run. If you are talking about the affects of adrenaline taking away your training, or similar, that is one thing, but to say it doesn't train in self defense at all is way too general. I see it as this, if you know how to block, that is a self defense technique, every time you practice this it is practicing self defense. Now defending against a mugger is usually just dumb, so in that sense I hope at one point in time that someone has said to you to "Just give up your wallet, go home, cancell you credit cards." This is defending yourself from getting shanked, so that would fall under that broad stroke too.....

[Laughing Cow]

NP.

I never give people reason to jump me.
;)

AFAIK, unless you meet a psychopath there should not be a reason for anyone wanting to jump you without provocation or cause.

The one time I was jumped I used Gun-Fu, but most of the times having plenty of buddies wearing the same logo on their leather jackets tends to dissuade that type of behaviour.
;)

For muggings I practice Insurance-Fu.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

ttt.

Another question:

Do you guys feel that your TMA training covers thinks that:

Darren Laur
Tony Blauer
Marc MacYoung

and similar talk about.

Looking forward to an interesting discussion.

Cheers.

[1renox]

L.C:

Well, I agree with you.
Despite my "big balls attitude"--ha,ha,ha-that was good!

I think SD means being able to run, evade, position, talk, posture and avoid even more so than being able to get out of a situation using violence.

Of the arts I've studied and the ones I've played with, it was all technique and theory and those were derived from the fighting style. Of the SD I've been shown, it was mostly unrealistic and worthless.

Regarding Laur, Blauer and MacYoung: Could you specify this somewhat? I'm not sure what the unifying principle is that each offers and how it relates to the others. It's probably my ignorance in regards to same, so please excuse my stupidity in advance.

[Nick]

If someone attacks you, punching, kicking, and grappling will not protect you.

Later...

[ZIM]

"Do you guys feel that your TMA training covers thinks that:

Darren Laur
Tony Blauer
Marc MacYoung

and similar talk about." No. but then I've got Darren Laur
Tony Blauer Marc MacYoung to talk about that stuff. :D

WTH? Is a sifu supposed to know everything? They're supposed to know the art they teach, thats all. Caveat emptor.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by ZIM
WTH? Is a sifu supposed to know everything? They're supposed to know the art they teach, thats all. Caveat emptor.

OTOH, if they claim to teach effective SD and street effective methods than they should know it.
But I agree a Sifu should know his/her art on inside and outside.

I for one go to my Sifu to study his version/interpretation of Chen TJQ, and not to learn to defend myself in the street or be street lethal.

Sounds like a contratiction, not really.

Seeya.

[ZIM]

I for one go to my Sifu to study his version/interpretation of Chen TJQ, and not to learn to defend myself in the street or be street lethal. not a contradiction at all. I go to learn the art... how I choose to apply it is mine. If the sifu sez: "you can't apply it that way" I say: "What business is it of yours?" If I *really* know the art, it takes care of me [if I took care of it. heh]- if not, not.

Which is all just another way of saying the ole 'technique is not the art' thingie... ;)

[dezhen2001]

I for one go to my Sifu to study his version/interpretation of Chen TJQ, and not to learn to defend myself in the street or be street lethal. great answer :)

dawood

[Becca]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


I see it as this, if you know how to block, that is a self defense technique, every time you practice this it is practicing self defense. Now defending against a mugger is usually just dumb, so in that sense I hope at one point in time that someone has said to you to "Just give up your wallet, go home, cancell you credit cards." This is defending yourself from getting shanked, so that would fall under that broad stroke too.....

Agreed. I had some one mug/car jack me New Years Day. He swung and I deflected it with a simple inner block. He then discided to leave me behind and just take my truck. He got about $120 out of my purse, and they found my truck wrecked the next day, but I was not hurt. My truck was easilly fixed and the money replaced. But healing is hard work, because it is both physical and mental.

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't see why traditional kung fu training and realistic self-defense training need to be different from one another.

I'm a kung fu teacher, and I consider myself traditional to the core. That said, we train for modern day scenarios using modern day weapons. I don't even carry swords or spears in my school because you don't walk around with those weapons nowadays. Our goal is to keep the practitioner alive, regardless of method.

There are schools of kung fu who dedicate themselves to preserving the lineage exactly the way it was taught by previous generations. I honor and respect that. But not all kung fu schools function that way.

The human body only moves so many ways. And regardless of the weapons or circumstances, a fight is a fight. The parameters may change, but little else does.

So far, some of my students have been forced to use their "traditional" kung fu in real modern day combat scenarios. Afterwards, they would come and tell me what moves popped out on their opponents.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
I don't even carry swords or spears in my school because you don't walk around with those weapons nowadays.

There is still a chance that you might get attacked with one of those though.
In the last few years there have been a quiet a few incidents in which traditional weapons (swords) were used for attack and some of those ended fatally.

One thing I was once taught:
"How can you defend against a weapon if you are not familiar with it's usage?"

Also many styles and system use traditional weapons to finish off unarmed training, and some rely on them for power and/or strength training.

While those weapons might not be useful for SD purpose, but than I don't think they were carried a few hundreds years ago either as a SD weapon.
Example:
Kwan Dao, Double swords, hook swords, etc.

Actually most warriors were trained in "non-weapon" forms in order to handle unarmed encounters.
Example:
japanese tessen "Steel fan" as NO weapons were permitted at court, etc.

The parameters are still pretty much the same. I don't see a YLC or any of the other great MA head to the local eating establishment fully equipped either or go for a stroll carrying plenty of weapons.

Martial Arts were developed for the Battelfield more than for SD purpose, SD was always a side-benefit and not the prime purpose.

Seeya.

[GeneChing]

What's the best self-defense? READ Not Getting Hit (https://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=1615) by Phil Humphries

http://www.kungfumagazine.com//admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/images/ezine/6941_Not-Getting-Hit_Lead.jpg

[SteveLau]

Of course MA is really useful for Self Defense. SD is part of MA. The latter has a broader goal besides SD.




Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[YinOrYan]

What's the best self-defense? READ Not Getting Hit by Phil Humphries

Interesting. Wonder how much faster than 9 meters per second an animal's claw speed is. In prehistoric times its likely there were a whole lot more animal preditors than human preditors. Also, wonder what percentage thugs and drunks have had any boxing experience, which means they would be inclined to go for cracking the ribs whenever the face is covered...