How Long

[tparkerkfo]

Here is a thought,

I often here people that say they have been studying for x amount of years. Often it is with one sifu. I think of those that were with Yip Man and most were only with him for a few years. I think Leung Sheung and TST were only around for about 5 years or so. I think WSL wasn't any longer. Some of these people kept up a relationship, but they were only training for a relativley short time. I am not sure the exact length of time, so I don't want to argue those points. But I am interested in those that study with there sifu for a length of time that exceeds that of their teacher.

I heared about a guy who has been learning wing chun for several years. He only knows SLT. No Chi Sau nothing. I mentioned that he should have good SLT, which the answer was, "yes, it is good". But he had nothing else. I understand the importance of SLT, but I don't think anyone was with Yip Man for that long and learned so little.

So, when you learn from a sifu and you have been with him longer than he was with his sifu, what are you learning? Is he lengthening out the system? Is he teaching his experience, the things he learned since he moved on? Are we slower learners than Yip Man students? Is that because most of us are working adult with families and those that learned from Yip Man were either single or sacrificed their families while learning?

Just curious about the paradox.
Tom
________
VAPIR NO2 (http://vapirno2.net)

[taltos]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Is that because most of us are working adult with families and those that learned from Yip Man were either single or sacrificed their families while learning?

I don't think this is the whole answer, but it's definately a big part. Most "old school" Winng Chun guys studied for several years, but did so almost every day and for most of the day.

In our society, we simply don't have the same amount of time available.

It would be interesting to see how many HOURS was spend directly training WC. I have a feeling when put into that context, the time will even out considerably. You know, like person A studied 5 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 3 years (4680 hours), while person B studied 3 hours a day, 3 days a week, for10 years (4680 hours).

Of course, individual understanding and practice play a large part as well, but I think the above goes a long way to explain it.

Any other theories?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo

I often here people that say they have been studying for x amount of years. Often it is with one sifu. I think of those that were with Yip Man and most were only with him for a few years. I think Leung Sheung and TST were only around for about 5 years or so. I think WSL wasn't any longer. Some of these people kept up a relationship, but they were only training for a relativley short time.
I'm not a historian, but my understanding is that Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, and TST were with Yip Man practically everywhere he went for those several early years in Hong Kong. These first three students watched Yip Man's every move and picked up everything they could discover. The core of Wing Chun has existed for a long time. The ancestors worked it out in excrutiating detail. Some may have been lost over time, but I suspect in some forgotten parts of China, all the pieces still exist and is handed down as it is from Ken and Ben.

It is also not true to say the early Yip Man students were only training for a relatively short time. Even after Leung Sheung opened his own school to teach Yip Man Wing Chun, he continued to train, and Yip Man continued to teach him, correcting him every time they got together for Chi Sao right to the end of Yip Man's life, interupted only by a short term falling out, as I understand it.

In turn, Ken Chung spent five of his teenage years, 13--18, with Leung Sheung and "learned" a kid's perspective of Wing Chun---all the sets, all the "moves." But in reality, he was not done. When Ken returned to Hong Kong to study for another five years with LS, Ken considers that he had to virtually start over in his understanding of the principles of good Wing Chun. Even after returning to the U.S., Ken was working and improving his Wng Chun.

Now you and I, as students of Ken, and in my case Ben, have access not only to Ken's knowledge gleaned in 10 years with Leung Sheung, but also to the refinements in technique, both in terms of Ken's and Ben's own personal Wing Chun, but also in the teaching of the subject in the Leung Sheung mold.

Wing Chun has always been a rich kid's art, so if you want a life too, consider what sacrifice it requires to devote so much time to it. I have time now in my life, but there have been times that I would not have, and likely there will come a time again that I will have less time for it. In Ken's case, Leung Sheung was unique and Ken's opportunity to study with him both as a kid and as a mature young man gave him what he couldn't find now if he somehow had to do it over, if you get what I'm driving at. :D

Regards,

[yuanfen]

Tom Parker sez:

But I am interested in those that study with there sifu for a length of time that exceeds that of their teacher.
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Tom-
"study". "length of time".... can have very variable meanings.... creating problematic inferences. I am not sure what you are looking for. But- anyways---

Ho Kam Ming studied regularly with Ip Man- more than many.
Actual and expensive private training including chi sao for 8 years-
followed by regular contact till Ip Man's death.

Fong Chi Wing (Augustine Fong) studied with Ho kam Ming for 8 years in Macao followed by teaching for him before leaving macao for Arizona. Stayed in touch with Master Ho after that- then brought him over to Arizona for seminars. Accompanied him to other seminars and stayed in touch privately since then and still does.

Both Masters Ho and Fong have taught several other well known sifus without broadcasting it.

Both Masters Ho and Fong stayed in learning and personal contact with their teachers ---way beyond the period of formal instruction. Old world kung fu values.

Both are actually quite careful about who they call their students.
See Fong's web site for his own comments on these things.

I have remained in contact with my sifu way beyond the period of formal instruction and it has been very educational and enriching.

Augustine Fong has no branch schools or franchises and encourages students to stand up with their own abilities and legitimacy- and I do. Mine is "Joy's Tempe Wing Chun".

But without cookie cutter maufacturing or blind imitation- there are some key quality continuities that are quite evident to me-
up and down the line that may or may not be to others.

Among the many variable in study time- is that these days lots of people are part time students of wing chun and therfore adding to the problem of making inferences from knowing starting dates with teachers. Instruction delivery systems have changed in the the diaspora of wing chun.In his training days Fong used to do 10, 000 punches evry day! I have seen him do 3000 continuously myself when I began with him.(Apart from other motions and activity). I have seen his seniormost continuing student Danny Chan easily do 2000 in the 70's when leading a class.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,

Excellent responses. I wasn't looking for an answer or anything persay, just throwing questions out there. Some people speak of number of years and I sometimes think what that means today and what it means yesterday.

taltos
I am not sure if time was more luxerious back then were they could devot the whole day. Some cases we were talking kids like Lee, Cheung, Ben Der, Ken Chung, and others. They could spend a great deal of time on wing chun. I don't know about the working conditions in Hong Kong in the 50's through 70's.

John,
Yes the living with Yip Man no doubt accounts for a lot more than just years of training. They were training probably even when they weren't training, ie discussions. LOL. Imagin sitting in on those. And yes many of the students maintained a relationship with Yip Man after they left on there own. Some came to America with a couple months to a couple years(Bruce Lee, Chris Chan, Ben Der) of training, others stayed and regularly visited (Leung Sheung, TST, WSL). Those that stayed obviously gained insights that they may have missed the first time around.

When I look at Ken I wonder HOW close it is to Leung Sheung. There are differences in him and his peers, however close they may be. I think a student gets all he can from a teacher, as Ken did, but that is only part of it. Then I think it is up to the student to digest it and understand it. It seems like Ken goes through that process as I am sure most do. In Ken's case, it seems like he is trying to stay as true as poissible while getting further in wing chun. Dr Ling is great to discuss these topics with. Although he points out the differences to Leung Sheung, he says he is probably the closest to him.

Joy,
Yes I think it is important to stand up and leave the nest one day. Doesn't mean your never comming back, but that it is time to move on. As stated above, I think one needs to digest the stuff one learns.

I am a part time student, not by choice though. I do think it is a problem as in most cases it leads to a degredation of skills. I wish I had the opertunity to study side by side with the likes of a Ho Kam Ming, Ken Chung, Tsui Sheung Tin, etc. Part of wing chun is/has been one part skill, one part dedication, and one part luck. As Leung Sheung said,"You find me, your lucky!" LOL. I would hate to have access to something and just waste it. When I think about it, I bet there is some guy in Arizona wishing he lived as close to the Serria Nevadas as I do. Some of the finest skiing places in the world. I don't ski and just look at them and see how pretty they are. LOL. I don't have wing chun, but I got the snow covered mountains. I can be king of the world up there without the fear of a sinking ship! LOL

enough rambling.

Tom
________
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[John Weiland]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Excellent responses. I wasn't looking for an answer or anything persay, just throwing questions out there. Some people speak of number of years and I sometimes think what that means today and what it means yesterday.

Perhaps I should have pointed out that Ken Chung worked out eight hours per day/seven days a week in the 60s and 70s while studying under Leung Sheung. During that time, he touched hands with hundreds, if not thousands.


taltos
I am not sure if time was more luxerious back then were they could devot the whole day. Some cases we were talking kids like Lee, Cheung, Ben Der, Ken Chung, and others. They could spend a great deal of time on wing chun. I don't know about the working conditions in Hong Kong in the 50's through 70's.

Ben Der says that in the two years of study with Yip Man in 56-58 while in high school, he seldom touched the old man's hands. Same-o, same-o for others at that time in class. Ben acknowledges only Ken as his real teacher. By having learned in YM's school, Ben had the knowledge to recognize the real deal when he saw and felt it. Yip Man had it. Ken has it.


John,
Yes the living with Yip Man no doubt accounts for a lot more than just years of training. They were training probably even when they weren't training, ie discussions. LOL. Imagin sitting in on those.

I'd be lost due to my abyssmal ignorance of Cantonese except perhaps, when the hands do the talking, when I'd be lost period in that company. :)


And yes many of the students maintained a relationship with Yip Man after they left on there own. Some came to America with a couple months to a couple years(Bruce Lee, Chris Chan, Ben Der)
of training, others stayed and regularly visited (Leung Sheung, TST, WSL). Those that stayed obviously gained insights that they may have missed the first time around.

It's not obvious to me. What support can you give for the statement? Most who stayed were retained for the benefit of Yip Man, for example, as teachers of other dues paying students.


When I look at Ken I wonder HOW close it is to Leung Sheung.

Well, we have the Kuen Kuit passed from Yip Man to Leung Sheung. There is no idiom in it that Ken does not adhere to in teaching. BTW, we covered the Kuen Kuit in the camp this year with Ken explaining and demonstrating each that we had questions about. Ken shares everything with his students even the ones that only come to seminars.


There are differences in him and his peers, however close they may be.

Peers? Who is his peer? Differences in his hands and others who studied less diligently, but even so, Wong Siu is close, but in the two who have practiced the longest, Ah Dak and Ah Sheung (sp?), their Kung Fu is excellent, but the expression varies at their level, but not in how or what is taught as the student progresses. Ken never misses an opportunity to touch hands with them. Although training separately, but devotedly, all these years, their hands are dramatically improved over their fellows. I would expect that Lok Yiu and to an extent, Chu Shun Ting, would be very close in teaching methodology and applications to Leung Sheung. Wing Chun is all learnable, but it isn't necessarily obvious and the work required....incredible.


I think a student gets all he can from a teacher, as Ken did, but that is only part of it. Then I think it is up to the student to digest it and understand it. It seems like Ken goes through that process as I am sure most do. In Ken's case, it seems like he is trying to stay as true as poissible while getting further in wing chun.

The problem of teaching several students is that they need to be able to learn from one another as well as from the teacher. The more advanced the students, the more they can learn. For example, as I mentioned today about the knife set, Leung Sheung, and now Ken, will not teach it unless the student's mindset is such that he would use it. He compared it to guns. You wouldn't want to draw a gun if you don't intend to use it. (You understand, I'm sure.)


Dr Ling is great to discuss these topics with. Although he points out the differences to Leung Sheung, he says he is probably the closest to him.

Jack Ling is very good, but he is not close to Ken's hands. He credits Ken with reviving his interest in Wing Chun.


I can be king of the world up there without the fear of a sinking ship! LOL

You sound like Hendrik. :p

Regards,