destruction... defense as offence....

[Suntzu]

whatever…

so what are some destructions… or whatever u wanna call them… how does one go about making there defence an offense…… elbows to fist… forearm to forearm block… knee to shin when blocking kicks… ??? … any others… ??? …

[MasterKiller]

Not sure what a 'destruction' is, but anytime you make contact with an opponent, you have the opportunity to do damage.

When I block punches, I use the outside of my forearm so the bone hits their arm; I typically try to block kicks by kicking their leg before thery can extend it completely, or by jamming the leg when I see their hips move at the beginning of the kick.

You don't have to knock someone out to stop a fight. If their legs or arms don't work, they can't kick or punch you.

[norther practitioner]

forearm block to chin na (usually go for opponents wrist via rolling of own wrist).

[Suntzu]

When I block punches, I use the outside of my forearm so the bone hits their arm; are u attacking (striking w/ forearm) or absorbing the punch with the bony part of the arm…

[Black Jack]

In fma arts its called defanging the serpent. One limb/nerve destruction is called a gunting. Its a fluid scissor motion and is used on the bicep or tricep. Very painfull.

Knuckle strike to the bicep, knuckle strike to the tricep, knuckle strike to the back of the hand, elbow strike to the bicep, elbow bone sheild to an incoming strike, axhand chop to the forearm bicep or elbow joint. For low line you have knee to the outer and inner thigh, knee/shin shields, jamming kicks to intercept incoming kicks, elbow strikes to trapped/scopped legs.

[MasterKiller]

are u attacking (striking w/ forearm) or absorbing the punch with the bony part of the arm…

We are taught to redirect the blow with circular motions so that we don't take the brunt of the force. But that doesn't mean you can't intercept the blow with some force of you own.


Knuckle strike to the bicep, knuckle strike to the tricep, knuckle strike to the back of the hand

We do the same thing, but we use a Leopard's paw instead of the knuckle.

[norther practitioner]

Black Jack...

When I was a kid, we'd call that charlie horsing :D .

That was actually another thing I was going to post. Instead of "just" blocking, sometimes I'll try to strike fleshy areas of the limbs with the block. Giving them like a charlie horsed or dead arm.

[MasterKiller]

When I was a kid, we'd call that charlie horsing .

We called it "frogging" because sometimes you can see the muscle knot up under the skin.

[Suntzu]

When I was a kid, we'd call that charlie horsing . it was a FROG 'round da way…
one thing I noticed is when striking an incoming blow… say 'blocking' down and away w/ the lead arm… the follow up seems slow and requires an exaggerated wind up… but I would assume that will shorten w/ practice…

[norther practitioner]

yeah, we used frogging too....
but that is one of the things I love getting friends with when they decide it is time to screw with me....

[norther practitioner]

say 'blocking' down and away w/ the lead arm… the follow up seems slow and requires an exaggerated wind up… but I would assume that will shorten w/ practice…

I try to think of it as a simple in out movement... as the lead arm goes down, using that energy to shoot the back arm out.... this is a bit slower than the inside to outside block as it doesn't help you turn the waist.

[Suntzu]

OKOKOK… enuff with memory lane… back to azz kickin…

[norther practitioner]

Oh, and I also like to flip it up in that case too. If you are blocking down with the lead hand.... I like to follow it up with a back hand with that same hand... albeit hard to always get as much power as you want with that strike.

[Black Jack]

Yeah they are nasty charlie horses. With gunting the destruction is just one aspect of the set up technique. The scissor aspect of the movement traps the limb in the craddle of the arm for a arm drag or body manipulation.

I really like using the axhand from a cross guard as well to chop incoming strikes. The great pugilist Jack Johnson used the crossguard chop on swings and hooks to great effect. In jujitsu it also allows you to be more efficent as your waist is already twisted as part of the cross guard setup which is great for a same hand chop from the same choping/blocking hand.

[MasterKiller]

the follow up seems slow and requires an exaggerated wind up… but I would assume that will shorten w/ practice

My Sifu says that all you have to do avoid a punch is move their arm 4 inches off target. Most people try large, sweeping blocks, which do require a lot wind up to recover.

I also like to redirect punches to the inside to turn the opponents torso and remove the threat of their other arm. I can then use my other arm to trap the hand/arm, or I can side-step to reposition myself.

[Suntzu]

using that energy to shoot the back arm out.... this is a bit slower than the inside to outside block IME… in to out doesn't have the same SLAP and sting to it as out to in… or it may just be me and mine… out to in strictly for causing damage and used every now and again… out to in… strictly for getting outside of the person… offset balance etc… maybe…

it doesn't help you turn the waist. I think that gives away the follow up but I'll work on it and see how it goes…

[apoweyn]

Yeah, we called them 'defanging the snake' or 'gunting' as well. The former is a bit too poetic though. How many times can you say that without feeling like a tool? And the latter technically refers to a scissor motion (as Black Jack mentioned), though I've heard it used (and used it myself) to describe destructions in general.

But all in all, I like 'destruction.'

Now, there's a quote. :rolleyes:

Anyway, my general policy is to try and put my elbow in front of anything coming my way. A person's fist, toes, knee, whatever. I'm not as good at it as I'd like because it's tough to do in practice. I'm generally not okay with the idea of breaking my partner's toes for the practice. But in college, the other members of the club told me they hated sparring me because they'd always catch an elbow on the foot or shin.

The other one I quite like is simply punching the bicep or tricep. The counterargument to that one is 'why not just punch the head?' Well, the range is slightly different. The arm is going to be a bit closer. And given that you want everything in combinations anyway, no reason why the punch to the bicep can't be the opening move. Many boxer types jab their way into punching range anyway. Might as well 'frog' the arm on the way in.

Now I'll have to test that theory.


Stuart B.

[Suntzu]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


My Sifu says that all you have to do avoid a punch is move their arm 4 inches off target. Most people try large, sweeping blocks, which do require a lot wind up to recover.

I also like to redirect punches to the inside to turn the opponents torso and remove the threat of their other arm. I can then use my other arm to trap the hand/arm, or I can side-step to reposition myself. I find the movement I use to be short at the start… say from guard to impact… it’s the impact to recovery(*shrug*)… that cuases to most travel…making sure it clears the follow up and getting it back to guard… *NP* backhand is a good thot…

that’s how I use the in to out block… like I said above… to get outside… mostly to side step… now I just gotta work on "WHAT NOW"… now that I'm out the way…

[Black Jack]

Yeah it is kinda a tool word. I think some people like to say it because it sounds cool to new students.:D

What is good about destructions is that they are adaptable to a situation of conflicting force. Not all the time are you going to want to smash the guys nose in. But maybe a rap on the old cannons to sap some of his will away might let him know your serious.

That and they are good setups. I say like traps don't go hunting for them but just take them as you get them.

[MasterKiller]

Many boxer types jab their way into punching range anyway.

I train with a guy who boxed in the Army, and he says boxers typically puch at the tricep on their way in to fatigue the opponents arms. I don't know if that's just his experience, or boxing technique in general.

[Suntzu]

And given that you want everything in combinations anyway, no reason why the punch to the bicep can't be the opening move. Many boxer types jab their way into punching range anyway. Might as well 'frog' the arm on the way in. yeah…… I'm just getting use to the idea that not every strike has to be the home run hit… and hitting him ANYWHERE is better than not hitting him at all… ROCKY lied to me ya'll…


I don't know if that's just his experience, or boxing technique in general. technique in general...

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


I train with a guy who boxed in the Army, and he says boxers typically puch at the tricep on their way in to fatigue the opponents arms. I don't know if that's just his experience, or boxing technique in general.

Regardless, it's cool to hear again. I'm not sure if that's typical of boxers. But it is smart.

The more I learn about boxing, the more impressed I am with it.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Black Jack


Originally posted by Black Jack
Yeah it is kinda a tool word. I think some people like to say it because it sounds cool to new students.:D

Yes. Yes it does. :)

My first guro used to ask me to teach classes occassionally at his satellite school. Then he and the other instructors would make fun of me because the next time they'd go out to the satellite school, all the students would be going on and on about 'limb destructions' and 'defanging the snake.'

I guess it should come as no surprise that I was probably a bit of a **** as a beginning instructor.


What is good about destructions is that they are adaptable to a situation of conflicting force. Not all the time are you going to want to smash the guys nose in. But maybe a rap on the old cannons to sap some of his will away might let him know your serious.

Yeah. Curiously, I consider destructions oddly humane. Sure, it's not like 'redirecting' an aggressor until he... what? Gets bored and leaves? But it could very well eliminate his ability to be aggressive. Without causing permanent trauma.

That's one of the things I like about the thai round kick to the thigh too. No permanent damage, but it'll let 'em know who's boss. And sap his will, as you mentioned.


That and they are good setups. I say like traps don't go hunting for them but just take them as you get them.

That's the trick, I think. Using them not as the objective, but the means.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

We can't say d0rk?! What middle school guidance counselor is running this site?!!

:)

[MasterKiller]

At least we can still say juggs.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
At least we can still say juggs.

Yeah, but I've never acted like juggs.

[MasterKiller]

I have. It was tits.

[apoweyn]

Ah boy. Talk about 'creating openings.' I asked for this. :)

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


I train with a guy who boxed in the Army, and he says boxers typically puch at the tricep on their way in to fatigue the opponents arms. I don't know if that's just his experience, or boxing technique in general.

I thought a lot of old school and bare knuckle guys did this, especially if they were fighting a bigger opponent. I'll have to check back on my old history readings to give you non-annecdotal quotes, but there's a pretty good quote to this effect by the more recent English unlicensed boxer/bare knuckle fighter Billy Cribb on this (http://www.geocities.com/unlicensed2001/billycribb.html) page.

Anyhow, just throwing that out for discussion.

[Black Jack]

Jack Johnson was fond of the bicep punch on an incoming strike.

Old school boxing was nasty and full of information. Hand loads, grappling, cross buttock throws, elbows, headbutts, what have ya.

London Prize Ring Rules: (bare knuckle 18th and 19th century rules though they also still had the more rual rough and tumble bouts. In some backwoods states in the south they would have gouging fights in where the players would try to maim the other fighter)

1. A round ended only when a boxer went down
2. The fallen fighter then had 30 seconds to "come up to scratch" for the next round
3. Limited Wrestling was allowed.

[joedoe]

Like the conditioning Thai boxers use, if you can condition your forearms to be hard, then you can use them to strike the incoming limb. Sometimes this can hurt your opponent enough to end the fight.

A good heavy slap to the forearm can have a similar effect.

Elbows are always good. Striking with the knuckles to the back of the fist (i you are good enough to trap the fist and strike it) can also be very painful for the other person.

[Shuul Vis]

if i dont feel like fighting, ill hang back and do my best to injure their hands/wrists and ankles/insteps with elbows. I basically just wrap my arm around my head and lean into the punches or place my arm like i am covering my ribs and sink into their kicks. simple stuff and works well.

to train these techniques it is best to work with peaches in your rectum.