chinese katana

[Kaga]

hey guys I was just wondering if anyone knows anything about chinese forms with a katana. I gotta say I really love that kind of sword but most of the styles, atleast that I have seen are very tight and hard. I was wondering if anyone ever experimented with a much looser and better flowing style with the katana?

[norther practitioner]

I don't know of any katana forms from a "chinese" style or system. You might want to look for two handed straight sword or two handed broadsword forms (they are both hard to come by, and I'm assuming by looking at a katana it is two handed).

[joedoe]

The katana was a Japanese weapon so you won't find any Chinese forms using the katana. The closest looking Chinese sword you might find are the sabre or the broadsword, but they were typically wielded single-handed.

A two-handed broadsword (as previously mentioned) may use similar techniques, but I don't know how well they would translate especially if the balance of the weapon or the curvature of the blade is different.

[Laughing Cow]

There are quiet a variety of Japanese Swords, only one small group calls for the label of Katana.

FWIW, the Katana has a 1 1/2 hand grip, it can be used either two or one-handed.

The katana as used during Edo era already adapted from it's pre-decessor the Tachi.

So first identify exactly what type of japanese sword you are after and than look for an equivalent in Chinese words and associated forms.

Which will be tough as Chinese sword tend to be double edged where as japanese swords usually are single edged.

Have fun.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/glossary.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

[David]

Broadswords use a different principle to katanas. The Chinese broadsword get wide towards the tip wher the guiding hand holds it as the sword is drawn back. by keeping the guiding hand there the sword cuts deep.

The katana has both hands on the handle and cuts. The Chinese broadsword needs one hand on the blade for same effect. I don't know about straight swords...

In an ideal world katanas would be Chinese and we could all ponce around doing the cool bits from Jap arts:D

-David

[norther practitioner]

Which will be tough as Chinese sword tend to be double edged where as japanese swords usually are single edged.

Um..... Well there are broadswords and straight swords. So I see two main types, one being single edged (broadsword) the other double edged (straight sword). This is barring you are not talking about any of the cma long weapons. I guess you could put the daggers in the double edged and the tiger hooks, but as far as regular swords go I see it as divided more than that.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


Um..... Well there are broadswords and straight swords. So I see two main types, one being single edged (broadsword) the other double edged (straight sword). This is barring you are not talking about any of the cma long weapons. I guess you could put the daggers in the double edged and the tiger hooks, but as far as regular swords go I see it as divided more than that.

He was talking about Katana style Chinese swords.

Personally, I see the broadsword closer to a scimitar than a Katana.

And, YES, it was a broad generalisation. Japanese weapons like many other aspects of their life were more influenced by Korea than China I think.

[norther practitioner]

OH........:D

[Vapour]

Research Korean swordworks. Due to its geography, it's been influenced both by Chinese martial arts as well as Japanese swordmanship.

They have number of sword schools which used Japanese katana like sword in very kung fu like way.

Go to sowrd forum international and ask in Chinese swordmanship forum. They have few korean sword practioner there.

[The Yellow Dart]

Pai Lum has a Katana form, does that count? :)

But if you're talking about Chinese swords that are similar to Katanas, isn't the Goose Feather sword pretty close? Although that may only have one-hand grip.

[neit]

martialartsmart has some tai-chi broadswords that have somewhat of a katana look to them. personally i never got onto the "katana worship" trend though.

[shaolin kungfu]

I remember seeing photos of old broadswords that looked more like katana's than the modern ones. Actually, they looked more like scimitars than katana's.

[Radhnoti]

Maybe you could run up on someone teaching "Miao Dao"...though it's bigger than a typical katana, and would most resemble a "nodachi".
From Mr. Thomas Chen's website:
"Ming Dynasty two-handed swords (probably mid-16th century) known today as the Miao Dao. These blades have ridged cross-sections and were obviously inspired by the large Japanese swords (known as "nodachi") used by the Japanese pirates raiding the Chinese south-eastern coast. One example currently resides in the Royal Armouries and is about over 1.4 metres in length. These large 2-handed sabers were first used by the elite Northern Border Troops under the command of Ming General Qi Jiguang in the late 1560s-70s to deal with Mongol cavalry."

One example of Miao Dao is near the bottom of the page:

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html

Here's another...suggested on Mr. Chen's page as well:

http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/article/2hand/ming4.html

Mr. Chen posts here semi-regularly, if you're really interested maybe you could PM him?

[sing fu]

Here is a site on baji long sword: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/tfz/tys/smt/index.html

[Ben Gash]

Baji and Pigua both use a Miao Dao in various lineages. Check out a Wutan school from Liu Yun Qiao. Several of them do it.
Also look for kung fu lineages from the extreme north of China, they're more likely to use it.
Cyberkwoon sometimes offer VCDs of Pigua Miao Dao.

[Ben Gash]

Laughing cow, scimitars are far lighter than daos. Do you mean tulwar? ;)

[Chang Style Novice]

I had the idea that Willow Leaf Sabers didn't differ physically much from Katana. But I know squat about swords.

[MasterKiller]

I thought Gene had said one time that Katanas were actually used in China first. I don't remember if I read it in an article, or if he posted it here, though.

[GeneChing]

I did an article in ourNOVDEC 2001 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=142) on the tai chi broadsword (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-60kk.html) where I compared the architecture of that to a katana. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/35-10.html) I also compared the Japanese and Chinese characters for sword and showed some examples of similaritiese between Ken and Jian swords, as well as some transitional Chinese swords like the Jia Dao.

It was actually a tweak on an article I did in the SEP OCT 2001 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=140) abotu sai vs. jian. Both focused on notions of parallel development. Of course, that article was a tweak on the previous one in the JUL AUG 2001 issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=138) on Bian. Bian are a variation of Jian (not the sword Jian, the sai jian.) And the parrying hook is parallel in Taiijidao to Hudiedao and sai. It was a weapon trilogy, each using movies as an intro.

[MasterKiller]

I must've read it Black Belt, then. They are always getting things wrong.;)

[ctoepker]

During the Ming Dynasty, Japanese swords were fairly eagerly sought after because of their quality. I'm sure that many a soldier, officer or general practiced their forms with a katana or other "Made in Japan" imported blade.

Why not you?

[JAZA]

Miao Dao is the same as Ma dao( Horse Sabre)??

[zipper]

The sword used in the Sung style is very much like that of the Katana, it is also two handed. There is no photos of it on the web site www.rogersmart.com.au
but it does mention it on the Hsing I page.

[zipper]

The sword used in the Sung style is very much like that of the Katana, it is also two handed. There is no photos of it on the web site www.rogersmart.com.au
but it does mention it on the Hsing I page.

[Ray Pina]

Check out my master's website below. He is hosting a sword tournament this fall, too, I believe.

Any sword -- one handed or two -- is welcome from what I understand. My senior has posted about it on the Sword Forum International website.

[GeneChing]

Not the same as a Ma Dao at all. Ma means horse and usually refers to pu dao (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/45-82wu.html) where the blade and handle are of equal length. A miao dao is a weapon from the miao minority - you can see a good picture of one in our 100 styles article in JAN 2000 (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf-200001.html) issue on page 28, where we cover Miao Quan. Miao Quan is actually one of the oldest styles. That example is straight, like a ninja sword. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/161071.html)

Evolution fist - Send me the info here and I'd be happy put it on our calendar.

[Thomas Chen]

Originally posted by Ben Gash
Baji and Pigua both use a Miao Dao in various lineages. Check out a Wutan school from Liu Yun Qiao. Several of them do it.
Also look for kung fu lineages from the extreme north of China, they're more likely to use it.
Cyberkwoon sometimes offer VCDs of Pigua Miao Dao.

Dear Ben Gash
I am most interested in the Miao Dao form of the Baji style. Could you provide me with some information or leads....Thanks!!


To Kaga:

For the ancestral prototype of the Japanese katana, which was essentially derived from China's single-edged "Dao" of Han and Tang Dynasties , check out my website:

Han Dynasty:
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo.html

Tang Dynasty:
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom.html

Song Dynasty:
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/catalog.html

Qing Dynasty:
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo5.html


Check out also my webpage on 2-handed Chinese swordsmanship (including the Miao Dao and 2-handed Jian):
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/contact.html




Regards
Thomas Chen

[norther practitioner]

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/tep/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=20&products_id=64
one of the miao dao videos....