Really, how dangerous are knives?

[rogue]

OK **** dangerous.

But, unless the guy is working a 12 inch blade how many of the fancy knife moves are immediatly fatal?

[joedoe]

I am no expert on knives, but I remember a case here of a woman who was sick of being beaten by her husband so she stabbed him with a fruit knife. The knife was only 2 or 3 inches long, but she happened to stab him precisely between the ribs at the right place to pierce his heart.

Seems to me that even a short blade can deliver a fatal blow.

[sticky fingers]

I've never been in a knife fight (thank God) but 1 thing I've learnt in training is never,ever underestimate a knife wielder no matter how puny the blade seems.

A blade the width of your hand is long enough to puncture your heart. Less to slice open an artery and bleed to death...

The ppl who say to treat a knife as an extension of the hand are living in fantasy land. A lot of supposed knife disarming techniques taught in various schools are simply suicidal - you know the ones where the knife attacker makes a lunge from 10 feet away yelling KIIAA! - just doesn't happen in real life.

Just do this as en experiment - get a friend to attack you with a marker pen (wear eye protection when you do this). A friend untrained in martial arts is better. Then compare the marks you get with an anatomy book and see if any of the marks would have cut a major blood vessel.

[shaolin kungfu]

Just do this as en experiment - get a friend to attack you with a marker pen (wear eye protection when you do this). A friend untrained in martial arts is better. Then compare the marks you get with an anatomy book and see if any of the marks would have cut a major blood vessel.

Thats a good idea. I'll have to try it some time.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by sticky fingers
Just do this as en experiment - get a friend to attack you with a marker pen (wear eye protection when you do this). A friend untrained in martial arts is better. Then compare the marks you get with an anatomy book and see if any of the marks would have cut a major blood vessel.

While not a bad training method, it has one major drawback.

A Knife consist of a point and an edge along the blade, the marker only has the point.

Cheers.

[CrippledAvenger]

Simple solution... use water soluable paint on a trainer blade and some throw-away clothes. Or even just ink on a wooden blade, would work, maybe...

[rubthebuddha]

very. period.

even if a strike isn't immediately fatal, and you do wind up beating your attacker(s), what have you gained? he's gone, but you're still SOL, because you're bleeding like hell.

the idea of a knife as an extension of the hand is crap, because no hand can cut you like that.

they're also a pain in the ass to deal with when defending against someone with skill, because they're adjustable to many angles.

one big example of this is the typical defense taught to block a downward-stabbing knife -- the one in which the defender sticks both hands above his or her head and makes an "x" to block the strike. any good blade worker would adjust the blade and slash the hell out of that person's wrists and, if they want, step back and watch their victim bleed all over themselves. happens in the blink of an eye, and that person's hands are pretty much useless without lots of hospital work.

personally, i'm more spooked of a good knife fighter than i am a person with a gun -- at least in close range. ask any filipino artist how nasty a knife can be, and i'll be backed up on this one.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Simple solution... use water soluable paint on a trainer blade and some throw-away clothes. Or even just ink on a wooden blade, would work, maybe...

I guess Splat-ball paint might work.

Another slight problem I see with this method, the marker/paint might leave a mark on the clothing but it might not have been a penetrating cut/stab.
Unless you train bare-chested naturally.
;)

Like I said a good method to get the awareness going, but I see limitations on using it as a judgement if a technique is effected.

Just some thoughts.

P.S.: Also check Darren Laurs articles about knifes.

[Chris McKinley]

rogue, I really can't believe you're asking that question. In all seriousness, I was under the impression that you had more experience/common sense than to ask whether a blade less than 12 inches in length were dangerous in combat. That's got newbie written all over it.

To provide you with some perspective, the typically preferred length of blade of a combat knife for professionals is typically 5 to 7 inches, though a 3 inch blade is what I would personally call a lower useful limit.

Your question also contains an absurd assumption--namely, that a blade need be long enough to produce immediately fatal wounds in order to be dangerous. The most immediate counter to that assumption might be the fact that one would need only approximately 1/4 to 1/2 inch of laceration depth to provide a possibly fatal wound to either the jugular vein or the femoral artery. Still, even such examples still miss the point. In as much as I do not need to administer immediately fatal blows with my bare hands in order to win a fight or even kill my opponent, I do not need to produce a fatal wound with a knife on a given strike in order to prevail in a given encounter or even to eventually kill him in the course of the fight.

Perhaps you only asked that question the way you did to spur discussion of the relative danger of varying lengths of blades or some such. I hope so, otherwise the question reflects a certain lack of common sense.

[CrippledAvenger]

One thing I'd like to throw out from my experience working with knives in a factory and on camping trips, is that it's sometimes really hard to even notice that you've been cut, badly, by a blade. I nearly lost the tipe of my left index finger cutting ties off boxes when I was 15 and didn't even notice until my foreman came running over. Factor in the adrenaline of a fight and you have the potential for bleeding to death before you even know you've been stabbed/cut.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
One thing I'd like to throw out from my experience working with knives in a factory and on camping trips, is that it's sometimes really hard to even notice that you've been cut, badly, by a blade. I nearly lost the tipe of my left index finger cutting ties off boxes when I was 15 and didn't even notice until my foreman came running over. Factor in the adrenaline of a fight and you have the potential for bleeding to death before you even know you've been stabbed/cut.

Fully agreed on that one, and I got similar experiences.

See how the Gurkha's marked enemy soldiers to be executed the next night.

[Serpent]

A lot of people badly stabbed in a fight will often testify that they thought they'd only been punched there until closer examination revealed a stab wound.

Knives, of any length, are bad, mmmkay.

[Mr Punch]

This stuck in my mind... rather there than somewhere else...!

Most major arteries and veins are within one inch of the skin. Two inches of blade, assuming some margin of error, should be enough to say goodbye. Three inches can reach your heart.

Read the stats on relative lengths and fatalities in attacks involving knives once... can't remember where... maybe that was a Laur piece...?

[sticky fingers]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=22064

[Mr Punch]

Here (http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm)
-Typical death of a stab wound in homicide cases is 1 inch to 1.5 inches through the rib cage
-In most edged weapon attacks the victim received multiple knife wounds. The usual cause of death are usually the last few wounds of the overall attack
-Even short bladed knives can penetrate the abdomen by 8-10cm
-3cm allows penetration of the ribs
-4cm allows penetration of the heart
-because of the small surface area of a knife, the amount of force per unit area is TONS per square inch

Laur's info is different to the stuff I seemed to remember, so trust him over me!

Check out the first point particularly. And the third. Fun.

[Laughing Cow]

Adding to that.

According to a research I once saw, the most common knifes used in killings were the standard cooking kitchen knife & cleaver.

Forget the fancy knifes, watch that hand close to the cooking knifes.
;)

Legal, easily available and can be purchaes with no hassles or questions.

Cheers.

[Shuul Vis]

For almost any knife defense technique i have seen, they would only be somewhat succesful if at all when facing an opponent that has any clue how to use a knife. In class we used to prove this by having our attacker use a special chalk tipped fake knife while we did defenses. After 2 or 3 attacks it became quite clear we were dead men seeing all the chalk lines all over our bodies.

As for knife strikes that kill quickly there is a book that lists i think 10 cuts that kill in 12 seconds or less. Ill try to remember which one and post the title here.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


While not a bad training method, it has one major drawback.

A Knife consist of a point and an edge along the blade, the marker only has the point.

Cheers.

I'm not sure I'd consider that a major drawback. It'll still make the point. (Pun unintentional, but tolerated) Spar with the pen, see how badly you get 'marked up', and then figure on it being about twice as bad with a full blade. Simple.


Stuart B.

[Taomonkey]

the most devastating blade in the hands of a trained MArtist is a short blade, like the Spyderco Delica, its about 2.5 inches in legnth. The small blade is harder to see, especially in low light situations (bars alleys etc.), and harder to defend since it can be wielded much faster than larger blades. I have a friend from the Philippines who was in a car wreck, and had hundreds of glass cuts on his body. When a FMA GM met him, his first question was when were you in a knife fight. To lots of FMA guys its way more than slash & stab. The marker tip works very well to show your weakness, and washable crayola markers should be used, not sharpies. (really ****es the wife off on laundry day)

[David]

I read somewhere that death from stabbings is disproportionately high because people underestimate how much damage has been done and don't get help quick enough.

With the rubber practice knives, I was told to put lipstick on the blade.

-David

[sticky fingers]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Adding to that.

According to a research I once saw, the most common knifes used in killings were the standard cooking kitchen knife & cleaver.

Cheers.

very true, a good reason to keep your kitchen knives in a not so obvious place (I should practice what I preach ). I wonder what the percentages are in people killed by their own kitchen knives by a home invader.

[Chang Style Novice]

How much more dangerous than "frequently fatal" do you need?:p


With the rubber practice knives, I was told to put lipstick on the blade.

I love this! "Oh, hon! I found lipstick on my husbands shirt, and it wasn't my color. I think he's been practicing his knife fighting again." (collapses into heartbroken sobs.)

[sticky fingers]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


While not a bad training method, it has one major drawback.

A Knife consist of a point and an edge along the blade, the marker only has the point.




Originally posted by apoweyn


I'm not sure I'd consider that a major drawback. It'll still make the point. (Pun unintentional, but tolerated) Spar with the pen, see how badly you get 'marked up', and then figure on it being about twice as bad with a full blade. Simple.


Stuart B.

As with any training tool, it has its limitatons. However, probably 9 times out of 10 even a marker pen will get you marked unless you are highly skilled in disarming.

Don't forget one of the most common stabbing weapons causing death is the plain old screwdriver.

[Marky]

Hi all,

You've got nothing to worry about. If someone with knife-fighting experience decides to attack you with an edged weapon, you probably won't know he has it until it's in you.

and if he's trying to intimidate you (in a mugging) then throw your wallet in his face and kick him in the leg, and figure something out from there.

I understand the use of a marker as a training tool, but it's too easy to start dueling instead of knife-fighting.

[yenhoi]

There are some FMA types discussing the "reality of a blade" on defend.net....

Knives are very bad :( Specially the trained people.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

If someone with knife-fighting experience decides to attack you with an edged weapon, you probably won't know he has it until it's in you.

So true. If someone shows you their knife, kill them with it.

A real knife fighter will kill you before there is a fight, or pop the knife once your engaged and not thinking (or seeing) - whats in his hand.

:eek:

[Black Jack]

Very bad mojo.

Lets go beyond the attack and not forget about the dangerous elements of going into wound shock if you happen to survive the assualt.

Besides wound shock which may result in a circulatory faliure which could lead to death their is a hemorrhagic shock which is caused by a massive internal hemmorrhage with miminal injury. When a key blood vessel that does not seal itself but continues to leak blood under the skin or into the body cavity without any immediate symptons the result could be coma or death within twenty-four hours if this sort of shock is induced.

Their is also septic shock which can be caused by infections from a tainted blade or as a complication to the injury even weeks after the attack.

On the topic of thrust vrs slash don't discount the slash as a fight stopper. A loss of consciousness or death can take place if an artery is cut and proper medical attention is not recieved in time. People can often take a extreme amount of punishment but loss of blood and the severe stress of getting slashed can effect anybody's abilities.

Arteries like the Brachial, Radial, the Carotid, Femoral, nasty stuff.

[rogue]

I was half joking about how dangerous a knife is and was inspired by this months Black Belt magazine. And considering that I'm finally getting back into knife work I figured I'd stir something up.


Spar with the pen, see how badly you get 'marked up', and then figure on it being about twice as bad with a full blade. A problem that was shown to me about the marker/chalk/lipstick demo, is that the people are usually sparring not engaged in commited h2h, more so when both have "blades" and are having knife "fight". I've noticed that the number of "fatal" cuts during the demo drops if the defender attacks the attacker in a commited way rather than play patty cake in knife range. Also it seemed to me the faster the defender attacked the more success they had. But if you screwed up you "died" quicker.

The other thing I was shown is that the defender tends to concentrate on the knife and knife arm only as targets and forget all about the normal ones that you'd attack if the guy didn't have a knife. Even the knife fighter tends to forget about getting kicked in the shins or in my case getting kicked in the gut with a driving front kick.

[ZIM]

Very dangerous, of course.

Black Jack, who I don't always agree with, brings up many excellent points, here. Don't focus on precision strikes, 'cuz thats not the deal- septic shock from a gut stab will shut down your system quicker than anything. Get punched in the stomch- do you drop or stop? same thing x 10.

I've been stabbed in the hands doing stupid disarms as taught by stupid sifus, in a real situation, and I'll just say, "your dead if it goes any further than that." I was dam ned lucky as the guy stopped. I think he was just as shocked as I was.

You get stabbed in the hand [this was a kitchen steak knife] it feels like a combo of punch and an electric shock*. You WILL stop for a moment- just long enough for him to plunge the thing into your gut, throat or heart.

Best defense is to run- most dedicated knife fighters are PSYCHOS, after all. Next best is the classic 'hold a light chair in front of you'- there IS a reason its a classic, it works. LAST is to fight him either bare hands or a knife, and i'll bet you'll come off badly...

WRT knives as extensions of the hands- thats a TRAINING metaphor. Most training does not teach knife fighting realistically, tho.

*ah yes, the pain of experience and vice versa. Stick your finger in a lamp socket while getting punched in the stomach or yarbles. That'll do. ;)

[Water Dragon]

I'm going against the grain here and saying they're probably no where near as dangerous as people think. I've seen the stats on guns (80 % of gunshot victims survive) I have a friend who was shot 6 times in the back with a 9 mm a few years ago. He DJ'ed a party I went to last Friday.

I'd love to see some knife attack stats, but I would think the survival rate would be somewhere around 90 %

[MasterKiller]

Knives are Old Skool. All the kids these days use hatchets.

[Black Jack]

An example of their seriousness for this discussion.

Forensic Pathology Pics- Please use mature attitude as this is a deceased person. Have Respect. I wounder if this is not a mistake.

Stab wound victim.

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/FORHTML/FOR025.html

Defensive Wounds of a victim on hands and forearms who tried to ward off and block the incoming knife.

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/FORHTML/FOR026.html

http://medlib.med.utah.edu/WebPath/FORHTML/FOR014.html

[MasterKiller]

links don't work

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, the links don't work. But the graphicness (is that a word?) of a pic does not necesarily reflect reality. I could find some nasty pics of fatal car crashes too. Those pics would be indicitive of only a minute number of car crashes though.

[Black Jack]

I tend to think that a pic does help represent the graphic nature of reality. It puts into presepctive what everybody is talking about.

We are not talking about cars being used as weapons so I don't really see the connection? Though I agree stats are a must as for a complete picture.

[Golden Arms]

You decide if they are nasty or not:

about 2 years ago, maybe less..one of my friends was up here having some drinks with his buddies at a local pub on a weekend afternoon. They left at about 4:30 and he followed them outside. For background, my friend is an boxer, and he is built well for it too,..I think he weighs 155, can bench over 300 and hits like a mule...anyways..one of his friends gets in this smack talking match with this street kid for whatever reason, and then they start to scuffle...my friend goes to break it up and the street kid swings at him...He decides to just drop him and lays one into his jaw, but the guy gets back up and has this wild look in his eye..they sort of clinched up as they scuffled for a sec, and then my friend just steps back, a dazed look on his face and he is all calm, which is weird..the kid takes off running and then my friend looks down, and his guts are hangin out...he got slit from above one side of his pelvis to the other, literally like 10 to 12 inches or so....the knife used...smaller than a small swiss army knife..maybe 2 inches...because he was in good shape..the knife cut his muscles like a tight rope, and severed an artery too..he is better now..but it took like 9 months for him to not be in constant pain...They did catch the kid..2 days later..he was bragging about it to an undercover cop no less. I think knives are scary...period.

[Water Dragon]

It's a part of the whole gross paranoia syndrome in martial arts that cause people to overeact and create their own fantasies.

Here's a better examples. I have read on this board and others that the goal of Shuai Chiao is to throw people on their heads and kill or cripple them. The whole I'm-so-deadly syndrome. The goal of SC is to "take the fight out of the other guy" Most throws just hurt, plain and simple. A lot of times, someone will get up and still want to fight, even on concrete.

Does the possibility of injury/death exist from a throw? Well yeah, but it's a very small part of what's going on.

Same deal with knives.

What is the probability that you will ever be attacked by a knife?
What is the probability that ou will die from a knife wound?

I think everyone knows that a knife can kill. Why create paranoia about it?

[CrippledAvenger]

WD-- I agree that survival rates for knife attacks and guns are probably higher than we think. The human body is remarkably resiliant, so excepting massive amounts of trama (multiple wounds/injuries) or one good shot to very sensitive areas (e.g. the femoral artery) your chances of survival are better than not. Furthermore, there's much less of a chance of dying of infected wounds or blood poisoning in this day and age, so there goes another main danger of a knife attack.

However, the damage knives can inflict is just about as impressive and potentially lethal as I can think in a weapon. So for me, it's not as much paranoia about knives and knifefighters but forcing myself to constantly remember how dangerous these things can be. I mean, I have a high tolerance for phyiscal pain and a bad habit of being absent minded, so I have to continually remind myself what these things can do and have done to my poor hands before, accidentally. :o But as for being attacked by a machete-weilding assailant who has studied Gray's Anatomy extensively.... well, let's just say it's not high on my list of dangerous things that I might run into.

[Black Jack]

I understand your point but I still don't see the paranoia.

Is it better to be a little more self-aware on what knives can and can not do than just go..."yeah they can kill but so what."

Don't you think it deserves a little more self-study than that. Even more so when martial artists are talking about knive defenses, techniques, how they can do this and that if someone dares attack them with a edged weapon, as if knives are not a big deal because it is such a far off possibility "percentage" wise.

Here is an article by Darren Laur on knife assualts

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/edged_weapon_tactics.htm

[African Tiger]

I know this is way late to really jump in, but it seems like ZIM has hit the nail on the head. Run, pick up a chair, or go for it.

Knives, like any weapon or tool for that matter, are only as dangerous as the wielder.

Personally, I'm probably not going to face off against someone wielding a professional's knife (balisong, K-bar, etc.) correctly, but I might just engage some jackoff with a pocket knife or a leatherman.

But I wonder, with 9-11 in mind, how dangerous can a box cutter really be?

[Water Dragon]

BackJack,
All I can say is that every hour I'm workinf on knife defense, that's an hour I'm not working on some thug trying to beat my head in.

Training hours are very valuable. Fill them with whatever it is you find most relevant.

[Black Jack]

Sounds like solid advice to me.

Like my invisible friend captain clamchowder used to tell me when I was stuck between watching scooby-do or the transformers.

"Prioritize....prioitize me lady...."

You'll have to excuse the spelling as he was often drunk on mouthwash and thought he was irish to boot.

[rogue]

me lady?

Anything you'd like to get off your chest BlackJack?:eek:

[ZIM]

Are we all talking the same thing?

Are we talking about the damage a knife [and knife-wielder] can do, or are we talking about defending against knives? :confused:

If you want damage, then fine- statistics count, so does experience. Train with a darn *real* knife, get cut, talk to me.

If you want defense, come up with something-otherwise, we're talking speculation. Everything in my experience says get distance between you and a weapon of any sort- its that freaking simple. If that means put something [another weapon? a wall?] between me and the oppo, fine. Case closed.


Why complicate matters? :confused:
However, the damage knives can inflict is just about as impressive and potentially lethal as I can think in a weapon. So for me, it's not as much paranoia about knives and knifefighters but forcing myself to constantly remember how dangerous these things can be. I mean, I have a high tolerance for phyiscal pain and a bad habit of being absent minded, so I have to continually remind myself what these things can do and have done to my poor hands before, accidentally. But as for being attacked by a machete-weilding assailant who has studied Gray's Anatomy extensively.... well, let's just say it's not high on my list of dangerous things that I might run into. I'm Irish and drunk on mouthwash right now, so i've put this here to respond...:p Machete's are the least of your worries, esp. if you live in the USA- no decent machetes can found. ;) Really, a machete is a slashing weapon and doesn't cut that deep. You really can try it if you dare... Stabbing is the way to go.

Which brings up another point: in the stats how many are slashing, how many stabbing? then: how does your training take that into account, both as attacker and defender?

[Black Jack]

:D

He was often drunk so I think he was in reference to lad. But he often looked at me funny so who knows and the one time on Halloween when he asked me to put on a micro-mini and pretend I was a Fire Island verison of Bruce Springstein I thought was a tad odd.

Oh well......

[CrippledAvenger]

Zim--

Essentially, my point was that a knife can do plenty of damage accidentally, let alone when wielded maliciously. The problem is, I think, that there' s not a hell of a lot of guys who are wizzes at knife fightings and thus, able to either deal massive amounts of damage or hit a fatal area like an artery or a vein. The tools are dangerous, and even moreso in the right hands, but at the same time, I think we're underestimating the human body's ability to survive and overestimating the amount of people who are truly dangerous with a knife. I'm not bashing training against the possibility of being knifed, nor am I knocking knife defences and training. I just think people tend to think that blood automatically equals death with regards to weapons.

I'm not sure if my point is really coming across. Does this make sense?

btw-- the machete thing was pure hyperbole. :D

[Water Dragon]

I prefer to spend my training hours preparing to deal with people who have conversations like this going on in their head


Originally posted by Black Jack
:D

He was often drunk so I think he was in reference to lad. But he often looked at me funny so who knows and the one time on Halloween when he asked me to put on a micro-mini and pretend I was a Fire Island verison of Bruce Springstein I thought was a tad odd.

Oh well......

[Laughing Cow]

The reason why I think discussions like this are important.

Too many people tend to underestimate knifes/eged weapons and the damage that they can inflict.
Plus, we see all those flashy disarms in movies and in those "fake" SD courses.

Maybe it too has to do that guns have now become such a major part of life.

Not having grown up in a particular rough neighbourhood, I still got introduced to a variety of "weapons" like bicycle spokes and similar.
Many of the younger board members might not be familiar with those.

[ZIM]

I'm not sure if my point is really coming across. Does this make sense? YES! And since you can use 'hyperbole' in a sentence, I'll treat you with respect. ;) :p

Seriously- it doesn't matter, IMHO, whther or not the guy is 'trained'- if he has a knife, he's dangerous, period. Sometimes untrained ppl can take on a trained one and kick butt, right? same thing.

Why? unpredictablility. The 'right hands' only makes it moreso. When we say 'right hands' were really talking WILL here- keep that in mind. With a weapon, say a gun, i can point it at you but not have the will to pull the trigger. So I'm not a threat, really. With a knife, we're talking a bit more will, but not much different...the guy doesn't have to be a ****z, really.

What I said re: machetes was not *exactly* hyperbole, BTW... get one. point it at people, slash it at ppl. You'll figure it out- I got bucketloads of faith in that. I keep two for camping. :) You know what they're good for? Cooking, digging out rocks, threatening ppl who don't know better...etc. :p
-------------
Blood =/= death with weapons... but time may = death...

[ZIM]

Not having grown up in a particular rough neighbourhood, I still got introduced to a variety of "weapons" like bicycle spokes and similar. I did. Several, in fact. It goes back to will, I believe- anything, even a bike spoke, can be a weapon if the will to use it to harm is there... But that just goes back to kung fu 101... a 'relaxed punch? WTF?'

[rogue]

But is there too much fear of the knife that works against the defender? Most of the photos of the after math of a knife attack are of people who were in a pure reactive and defensive mode. What about those that attack the assailant rather than defend?

As an experiment try the marker drill by going full attack mode with the goal of controlling the arm and using the knife against the assailant rather than disarming him and see who gets cut up more.

[Shooter]

LMAO at every genius offering up their 'sparring tips'!

jeezuss :mad:

[joedoe]

Well it is a discussion forum after all. Do you have better advice to offer?

[Fred Sanford]

you don't need all those fancy drills. Just practice your forms more, the answers will come.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Shooter
LMAO at every genius offering up their 'sparring tips'!

jeezuss :mad:

So what would you suggest? Arrogant pr!ck.

[Shooter]

Do you have better advice to offer?

No, Joedoe. I dunno know what I'm talkin about.


Arrogant pr!ck

that's right :p

[Fred Sanford]

with a few exceptions (being the cma guys with indonesian or filipino ma experience) the last place I would go for advice about knifes would be a chinese martial artist.

[rogue]

Dumb and Dumber Shooter? Of course I a self admitted @sshole so I guess that's OK.;)

Toss your 3 cents US in the mix Shooter, can't be any worse than my pearls of wisdom.:D

[joedoe]

Fair enough. But I think it is fair for people to exchange ideas on training methods regardless of how useless you might think they are. As I pointed out, it is a discussion forum.

[Knifefighter]

I've been doing knife work for 20 years or so, and I still don't like facing a blade in a real situation, even if I have two blades in play and the other person is untrained and has only one. Knives are definitely bad news no matter how good you think you are.

It is a myth that a good blade man will not show you his knife before he brings it into play. That may happen, but only if he is sure he wants to kill you. He may not want to fight you in the first place if he doesn't have to and may use the blade to persuade you not to engage. A knife is a very good intimidator and will back down some of the toughest mofo's out there.

It is possible to disarm a knife-wielding opponent and even not get sliced in the process, but the odds are generally against at least not getting cut up somewhat.

There is some innovative unarmed knife defenses being developed right now. Some examples are Burton Richardson's stuff, the STAB approach, and a JKD guy in Bellflower, CA, whose name I forgot.

[Shooter]

that's just crazy talk

[Ryu]

Knives.

Are very beautiful and at the same time very ugly weapons...
In the hands of someone who knows how to use it....they're deadly. Almost always.

Had an incident just recently that involved a knife. Don't really want to discuss it. (No one was hurt) Pulling a knife in any situation, even a defensive one, is horrible...

Here's a link to a page I like. www.sayoc.com You can see good knife skills in action.
Plus any of the pekiti links floating around out there too.

Ryu

[ZIM]

with a few exceptions (being the cma guys with indonesian or filipino ma experience) the last place I would go for advice about knifes would be a chinese martial artist. Racist! Everybody knows you gotta go to the chicanos for knives...:D

I think knifefighter nailed it best.
It is a myth that a good blade man will not show you his knife before he brings it into play. That may happen, but only if he is sure he wants to kill you. He may not want to fight you in the first place if he doesn't have to and may use the blade to persuade you not to engage. A knife is a very good intimidator and will back down some of the toughest mofo's out there. All parts of that are very good. I've intimidated ppl w/ knives before- not proud of it. The first part about not showing unless they want to kill you is a *critical* thing, too- something I was shown how to do by a fairly un-balanced guy...

If you want to train for knives- get some friends and declare 'random stabbing month' at your school. Give them each 6" lengths of 1" dowling. Tell them each to sneak up on you sometime in the following weeks at times of their choosing. Tell them to go all out, hitting bones and throat, stomach, etc. And try it yourself, so you can see the mindset of it. Take a real knife and stab through things so you can check the reality of your grips. Learn to use them before you learn to disarm them.

Oh, and remember: the West was and is a blade-using culture- you've got a lot more to draw on than you might realize.

My $.02 is pretty well spent at this point. Hope it helped. :)

[rogue]

Shooter, no offense taken. I'll take as much substance as I can get, but nothing beats trying the stuff out. Care to explain the attrition part some more?

Knifefighter,
Can you give a rough idea on Burton Richardson's and the STAB entails?

[Shooter]

Care to explain the attrition part some more?

Hell no! LOL :D Not on a public forum.

I'm sure knifefighter and Chris know exactly what I'm talking about though.

[rogue]

Oh thanks, now what was it that Serpent called you?:p

I did a search on "Emotional context, Grip, Attrition" and got "Sexual Identities of Young Puerto Rican Mothers". Which may be interesting but not the answer I was looking for.
:)

[Shooter]

Well, if my proprietary discretion makes me an "arrogant pr!ck", so be it. You didn't like what I posted? Man, that stuff was gold. :p

[Ryu]

"It is a myth that a good blade man will not show you his knife before he brings it into play. That may happen, but only if he is sure he wants to kill you. He may not want to fight you in the first place if he doesn't have to and may use the blade to persuade you not to engage. A knife is a very good intimidator and will back down some of the toughest mofo's out there."


That's very true. Also wanted to add that pulling a knife in reality on a person or persons you don't know with the intent to intimidate away, defend, etc. is not as easy as some think. When you pull a blade in a real situation everything changes. You're lucky if the person or persons back down and don't run off to get a gun...
When you pull a knife, YOUR adrenaline will also hit the ceiling. Even if you're trying to persuade others not to engage, the very act of pulling a weapon indicates that blood is very likely to be spillt, and death is probably in air. Like I said above...I recently had an incident like this.
You're challenging someone's life whenever you pull a weapon.

Ryu

[Serpent]

What about the idea of whipping your shirt off and wrapping your hand and forearm (should time allow while posturing!) to use as a blocking arm against a knife and then to move in and hammer the wielder. I've never really trained that technique as it seems like a pretty specific situation to me, but what do you guys think about it's validity as a defensive tech.?

[Shooter]

anything's possible... :p

[ZIM]

What about the idea of whipping your shirt off and wrapping your hand and forearm (should time allow while posturing!) to use as a blocking arm against a knife and then to move in and hammer the wielder. I've never really trained that technique as it seems like a pretty specific situation to me, but what do you guys think about it's validity as a defensive tech.? I think it's a great idea! (http://mirror.flabber.nl.nu/images/kangaschaap.jpg) That way you've got a tourniquette already in place for the paramedics! ;) yep, that one was for you Ozzies, and yep, I sure am bored.

Ok, for real now... if you got a leather jacket, it makes sense... but in that case, just wear it. In duels, they'd sometimes use cloaks to whip and entangle, so that idea might be applicable, too- if you got a towel or something.

In certain types of duels, they also used to use heavy leather gloves to grasp the knife by the blade. Thats part of why serrated blades became more common. Don't think I'd recommend it unless you're a hockey playa.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Shooter
anything's possible... :p

I wasn't asking you!

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by rogue

Can you give a rough idea on Burton Richardson's and the STAB entails?

They are working some variations on 2 on 1 controlling and disarming techs. Each of the camps has their own specific take on it.

Speaking of intimidation, I once saw three guys attack a woman. Before anyone could blink, she drew a blade. Those guys were out of there in a flash.

My understanding of attrition is that you cut the guy up in vulnerable spots and wait until he bleeds out. As a general rule, you probably need to be technically superior to your opponent to pull this off.

BTW, if you want a fascinating read, there's a new book on the history of the sword in Europe and Japan out called "By The Sword." Here are a few interesting tidbits from the book.
- Upper class Europeans would engage in duels to the death at the drop of a hat. From the around 10th to 12 centuries, an upper-class male in England had a one in four chance of being killed in a sword duel.
- England had a tradition of trial by sword. If someone accused you of a crime, you could fight them in a duel to determine whether or not you were guilty of the crime.
- Musashi, the famous Japanese swordsman who wrote "The Book of Five Rings", won the majority of his duels against other sword wielding Samurai with a wooden boken. He killed one of the fiercest Samurai in Japan with a boken he had fashioned from a rowing oar on his way to the fight.
- Japanese and European swordsmanship evolved in two completely different directions. European swordplay evolved into a thrusting style with an emphasis on an encyclopedic array of techniques, while the Japanese developed a cutting/drawing style that emphasized more of a "no-mind" Zen approach to the technical aspects of fighting with the blade.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by ZIM
I think it's a great idea! (http://mirror.flabber.nl.nu/images/kangaschaap.jpg) That way you've got a tourniquette already in place for the paramedics! ;) yep, that one was for you Ozzies, and yep, I sure am bored.

Ok, for real now... if you got a leather jacket, it makes sense... but in that case, just wear it. In duels, they'd sometimes use cloaks to whip and entangle, so that idea might be applicable, too- if you got a towel or something.

In certain types of duels, they also used to use heavy leather gloves to grasp the knife by the blade. Thats part of why serrated blades became more common. Don't think I'd recommend it unless you're a hockey playa.

That was a picture of an Aussie shagging a New Zealander! ;)

I've done some training using a belt and practiced quickly removing a belt in order to use it. It gives you a ranged weapon that can be useful but I'm not sure I'd be confident to use the technique faced with a real knife. You'd wanna be really good before you relied on it!

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
- England had a tradition of trial by sword. If someone accused you of a crime, you could fight them in a duel to determine whether or not you were guilty of the crime.


That's quite right. It was believed that if you were not guilty then the might of justice would mean you could win and your accuser would be the dead one. If you died, you were obviously guilty.

Can anyone spot the flaw in this system?

;)

[ZIM]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
England had a tradition of trial by sword. If someone accused you of a crime, you could fight them in a duel to determine whether or not you were guilty of the crime. They still have it. A man invoked it recently in regards to a motorcycle ticket, offering to take on whoever they wanted with whatever they wanted. The Gov't declined and fined him even more. Now, I ask you: when the Gov't won't follow it's own laws, WTF? Is EVERYONE turning into the USA? :p

Knifefighter: don't know if you've ever seen this. (http://www.thehaca.com/essays/katanavs.htm) Dueling is the coolest- more martial artists should read up on it, IMHO- becoz thats mostly what they're studying... even mo duk/wu de is often code duello.

[ZIM]

--A court has rejected a 60-year-old man's attempt to invoke the
ancient right to trial by combat, rather than pay a £25 fine for a
minor motoring offence.
Leon Humphreys remained adamant yesterday that his right to fight a
champion nominated by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA)
was still valid under European human rights legislation. He said it
would have been a "reasonable" way to settle the matter.
Magistrates sitting at Bury St Edmunds on Friday had disagreed and
instead of accepting his offer to take on a clerk from Swansea
with "samurai swords, Ghurka knives or heavy hammers", fined him
£200 with £100 costs.
Humphreys, an unemployed mechanic, was taken to court after refusing
to pay the original £25 fixed penalty for failing to notify the
DVLA that his Suzuki motorcycle was off the road.
After entering a not guilty plea, he threw down his unconventional
challenge. Humphreys, from Bury St Edmunds, said: "I was willing to
fight a champion put up by the DVLA, but it would have been a fight
to the death."
-------
And now, back to the topic!

using a towel or something to entangle is really in the realm of 'fantasy' I'd say, but giving it the ole 'try' in training might be of use. Also: look up marc macyoung's views on the subject of knives for a tactical/strategic view. He's basically saying 'nutz to that knife fightin' stuff'.

If you're going to go in for the berserko attack, then I guess you'd really have to use whatever would end *any* fight quickly- never mind the other factors- and hope that you're lucky.

Also: on don rearic's page [don't know much about him] there was a piece by a narcotics officer, name of southnarc. He goes into the use of smaller knives.

Well, I'm googled out. :)

[Shooter]

tis ok, Serpent. I'll leave you to your delusions now...enjoy.

knifefighter's ideas of attrition are a bit different than my own btw.

[Serpent]

**** you, Shooter. If you just plan on being elitist, saying everyone is wrong and then refusing to even state why, let alone suggest what you think might be right, then stop posting. You just like looking at your own name on the thread or something?

ZIM - I wasn't talking so much about using a belt to entangle to get the knife or entangling the knife arm. More to use as a whipping weapon so that you have a longer weapon than the knife wielder so they can't get close enough to cut you. Control the range and wait for your opportunity to get in there and hammer them.

[shaolin kungfu]

What exactly do you find so wrong about all the responses shooter?

[Shooter]

sk, I find nothing wrong with the responses. I just think that the training methods being proffered are without structure and basis in reality is all. I mean, c'mon...whipping off your shirt as a sheild? Random stabbing month?

I posted a very thorough and effective outline for structuring the training and arranging the thinking on matters of weapons defense and retention...it didn't even make a dent. People here don't wanna know that stuff.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Shooter
sk, I find nothing wrong with the responses. I just think that the training methods being proffered are without structure and basis in reality is all. I mean, c'mon...whipping off your shirt as a sheild? Random stabbing month?

I posted a very thorough and effective outline for structuring the training and arranging the thinking on matters of weapons defense and retention...it didn't even make a dent. People here don't wanna know that stuff.

Do you have a link to what you posted? Or was it in this thread (if it was I must have missed it). I'd like to see what you had to say.

[Shooter]

I posted my standard edit-phrase, "That's just crazy talk", which is what I replace the good stuff with when it goes over everyone's head. :D

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Shooter
I posted my standard edit-phrase, "That's just crazy talk", which is what I replace the good stuff with when it goes over everyone's head. :D

OK. That's a shame because I would have liked to have seen what you had to say on the matter.

[Mr Punch]

No ****er really pays attention to anything of any worth on this board anyway Shooter, cos it usually gets lost in cheesy gags...

For example this link (http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/edged_weapon.htm) which I posted on this thread, which pre-empted WD's question with at least some rudimentary info like this:


Laur
FBI statistics:
...
-Subject shot, 10% die from their wounds
-Subjects stabbed, 30% die from their wounds
...
-Knife attacks were found to be exceptionally accurate, to penetrate deeper that some bullets, creating remarkable permanent cavities and rip through numerous organs in one stroke
-In reality, within their respective ranges, knives are superior to firearms as far as lethality is concerned ...

which also pre-empted BJ's posting of the same ****ing link.:rolleyes:

I've been training in a number of martial arts, effective and BS, I've had a number of altercations, including some happily relatively unexciting ones with weapons, and I have been shown a lot of 'knife defences', 'disarms' and the like and I strongly believe that most of what most people practice in the dojo in regard to edged weapons will leave them completely unprepared, physically and psychologically, for any kind of real-life altercation involving such weapons, and as such may lead to their extinction: forget it. That's about all I have to say on the subject. Nothing that valuable maybe but since NO ****ER'LL READ IT ANYWAY...!:p :D

My tactics? Kick them in the knee or the shin, fast and hard, and run at least as far as a longer potential weapon, if you're leaving someone behind. If you can't run, keep kicking them. If they close the range, you're mental flash - Subjects stabbed, 30% die from their wounds dead... if you're not 70% dead get closer still, wrap the arm, engage the face, head, neck and go ape****.


Serpent: you a stripper? Got one of those nice velcro shirt numbers have you?:D And as for the belt thing, I make the mistake of wearing a belt to keep me trews up... if I whip that off, what's gonna happen...?! Me kecks'll probably scare the wee **** to death!:D

Shooter: just post it again will ya, or pm me please.

[Shooter]

Hey, Mat. I tried to PM you but your inbox is full.

will try again tonite

[apoweyn]

Rogue,


A problem that was shown to me about the marker/chalk/lipstick demo, is that the people are usually sparring not engaged in commited h2h, more so when both have "blades" and are having knife "fight". I've noticed that the number of "fatal" cuts during the demo drops if the defender attacks the attacker in a commited way rather than play patty cake in knife range. Also it seemed to me the faster the defender attacked the more success they had. But if you screwed up you "died" quicker.

The other thing I was shown is that the defender tends to concentrate on the knife and knife arm only as targets and forget all about the normal ones that you'd attack if the guy didn't have a knife. Even the knife fighter tends to forget about getting kicked in the shins or in my case getting kicked in the gut with a driving front kick.

This, I have to agree with. Most of the knife sparring I did and witnessed in eskrima had a definite 'fencing' feel to it rather than committed h2h. That's a distinction that I first heard Black Jack make, I think. He termed it fencing vs. assassination. (Am I getting this right, Black Jack?)

You're right. People jab at each other's weapon hands, try to lunge in for a shot to the leg, get a slash in the face in the processs, etc. They don't close. And I agree with you that this is a major... discrepancy(?)

I've heard knifefighting described as grappling with more variables. I think there's something to that. Not necessarily groundfighting, obviously. But 'in your face', all the same.


Stuart B.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Serpent
What about the idea of whipping your shirt off and wrapping your hand and forearm (should time allow while posturing!) to use as a blocking arm against a knife and then to move in and hammer the wielder. I've never really trained that technique as it seems like a pretty specific situation to me, but what do you guys think about it's validity as a defensive tech.?

Pulling a piece of cloth over your head, occupying both of your arms and preventing you from being able to see your opponent, strikes me as a remarkably bad idea when someone's standing in front of you with a knife.

[Black Jack]

Jeez O' me crickets....you know you are back on kfo when people are *****ing at each other.

Knifefighter- I think you are talking about Jim McCurry in BellFlower? He has a system which I think is called balijujitsu or something of that nature. Combines close range knife combatives with ground grappling I believe.

Serpent- The shirt thing is a bit to weak. If you are going to wrap the arm some advocate a jacket due to its increased protection but even some people doubt that as a good measure. If you have a pell in the backyard and a quality knife or even a cheap knife that is somewhat sharp go wrap a old spare jacket on the pell and go at it with slashes and thrusts and see what gets through.

Though that does not take away from the time spent wrapping your arm in such a situation.

Ford- You made me spit up my drink with that line about forms. Your smart-assness is priceless. They should sell it in department stores. I agree with you on chinese martial arts and knife training in general but I bet their are some exceptions not based on style but on certain teachers and experiance.

Shooter- Did I miss a post of yours. You could pm me if you wish as I would be interested.

Ap- Yeah its just a distinction between training methods. The fencing vrs assassination distinction. Some people seem to think that a knifefight is "always" going to be like the 1827 Vidalia Sandbar fight and their Jim Bowie.

[Water Dragon]

Mat, I simply missed your post. That happens sometimes when you're wading thru 2-3 pages.

I'm sorry I offended your tender sensibilities.

[yenhoi]

I missed shooters post too..... and my pm box is empty...

:eek:

[ZIM]

I missed shooters post too..... He removed it. Took the football and went home. Anyway, he wouldn't explain the jargon parts, so it came off as a variation on 'my secret system is better than...'

Anyhow- the part about Emotional context, grip and attrition was mentioned. EmoCon was more of a "who stabs and why?", given whatever relation they are to each other, the reason they're fighting, etc. Grip was, IIRC, the type of grip on the knife and was tactical- but was not specified in the posting. Attrition was not explained at all.

There was nothing that I recall on how to structure training, and the entire line of thinking was mostly reminiscent of post-incident police work, really.

Sorry if that offends, shooter. You wouldn't explain so I have to go by my first impressions.

[yenhoi]

Zim: Triangle man probably had a knife...

TMBG :D

:eek:

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by FatherDog

Pulling a piece of cloth over your head, occupying both of your arms and preventing you from being able to see your opponent, strikes me as a remarkably bad idea when someone's standing in front of you with a knife.

And you would do that 1-handed too in case you got your own knife?

Plus there is a good chance that it will slip off your arm unless it is tied.

I see this another move that works well in movies, but fades quickly in real life.

Cheers.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Serpent- The shirt thing is a bit to weak. If you are going to wrap the arm some advocate a jacket due to its increased protection but even some people doubt that as a good measure. If you have a pell in the backyard and a quality knife or even a cheap knife that is somewhat sharp go wrap a old spare jacket on the pell and go at it with slashes and thrusts and see what gets through.

Though that does not take away from the time spent wrapping your arm in such a situation.


Right. Like I said, I'd never trained it because it seemed so situation specific to me. Like you have time circling each other or some shiat. But, I know it's considered by many to be a valid technique, so I brought it up for discussion.

[Shooter]

There was nothing that I recall on how to structure training, and the entire line of thinking was mostly reminiscent of post-incident police work, really.

You sure about that? :p


You wouldn't explain so I have to go by my first impressions.

Impressions? I don't think you have the understanding to discern the value of what I outlined. More like assumptions.

Aren't you the guy who suggested "random stabbing month"? Oh my...

Nevermind, Zim. You know best.


Joedoe is correct. This is a discussion forum for the free exchange of ideas. Have at it, guys. Sorry I wasted your time.

[Black Jack]

Bad mood tonight shooter;)

Have some beer man. A nice corona with lime. Everything looks a shade better when your drinking mexican.

[joedoe]

Can you PM me with what you previously wrote? Thanks.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
Can you PM me with what you previously wrote? Thanks.

Or just repost it for god's sake! If you have something worth bringing to the party, don't putz out because a couple of people ignored you.

[Shooter]

Black Jack, I'm in a great mood. ;)

You and I already discussed that post in Rogues other weapons thread from a bunch of weeks ago. I just cut and pasted it here last night.

As I told Rogue last night, I have a lot of disdain for these types of discussions because they never precipitate in anything valuable in terms of structure and mindset.

IMNSHO, weapons defense and retention training has nothing to do with 'sparring'. This is the first idea which has to be discarded before anything approaching reality can be established collectively. The main limiting factor in these kinds of discussions is the lack of real-time, hands-on, face-to-face. Simply because the participants and the audience aren't reading off the same page.

There are basics which are understood by people who know what's what. I never have a problem discussing weapons training with Chris Mckinley when we chat. We both know exactly what the other is saying even when we broach our own personal differences or venture into new territory in sharing our experimental ideas.

The next problem I have is with the lack of progressive thinking when it comes to the structuring of a congruent and effective training approach. Putting lipstick or whateverTF on a rubber knife or whateverTF is fine (felt pens and shiz). But all that does is show you where your misconceptions get exploded. You have to move beyond each new awakening with something progressive while keeping a congruent bridge between reality and the experiences you gain in evolving a union of yourself and what's real. Just like any facet of MA you commit your life to. IOW, don't get stuck doing the same old crap.

This is a serious body of study which can't be done in half-measures. That's for dreamers and people who choose to dabble in their own demise. Half-measures is bullsh!t. Either commit 100% to the training or frag off. :D

[joedoe]

Interesting thoughts Shooter. Thanks.

[Serpent]

Shooter, you've just effectively said nothing! What's your point. First you rattle on at everyone for suggesting lipstick knife training or whatever, then you say well, actually, that's fine, but you have to move beyond it, but you offer no advice or suggestions for how to move beyond it or even what you mean by the statement.



IMNSHO, weapons defense and retention training has nothing to do with 'sparring'. This is the first idea which has to be discarded before anything approaching reality can be established collectively. The main limiting factor in these kinds of discussions is the lack of real-time, hands-on, face-to-face. Simply because the participants and the audience aren't reading off the same page.



This can be said fo any internet discussion of any aspect of training.



There are basics which are understood by people who know what's what. I never have a problem discussing weapons training with Chris Mckinley when we chat. We both know exactly what the other is saying even when we broach our own personal differences or venture into new territory in sharing our experimental ideas.



So why can't you share these basics here?



The next problem I have is with the lack of progressive thinking when it comes to the structuring of a congruent and effective training approach. Putting lipstick or whateverTF on a rubber knife or whateverTF is fine (felt pens and shiz). But all that does is show you where your misconceptions get exploded. You have to move beyond each new awakening with something progressive while keeping a congruent bridge between reality and the experiences you gain in evolving a union of yourself and what's real. Just like any facet of MA you commit your life to. IOW, don't get stuck doing the same old crap.



So what's the new crap that people should move onto in order to join your Elitist Corps of Reality Trainers?

[shaolin kungfu]

All I saw in your post shooter was you telling us why you couldn't tell us. There were a few good nuggets that can be squeezed out of it, but nothing that would help anyone greatly.

Telling us that we're doing it wrong doesn't help without saying why.

[Ashez]

Try wearing a white long sleeved shirt and get someone to attack you with a Rubber knife with lipstick on it , you will notice any cuts you may recieve

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Ashez
Try wearing a white long sleeved shirt and get someone to attack you with a Rubber knife with lipstick on it , you will notice any cuts you may recieve

Read the whole thread before you chime in dude.

;)

[joedoe]

Yeah, it's only about the 5th time something like that was suggested :D

[Mr Punch]

Shooter: cheers. Inbox cleared. Cheers again!:D

WD: I'm afraid your pathetic excuses are not good enough. I'll never lend you money again, and as for that thing with the three-nippled Burmese transvestite melon-seller, that's no longer safe with me sonny-boy...

Serpent: why don't you try wearing a long sleeved white thick-padded jacket, you know, one of those with the very long sleeves that kinda buckle together at the end, and cover yourself in lipstick while assaulting your imaginary assailant with a steak-knife and simultaneously whipping all your clothes off and screaming 'Come get me wildebeest****ers!' in swahili... maaan, they sure as **** ain't gonna attack you then.

Ashez, ignore these *****s, it's just picking on the newbie :)... and try reading some of the previous ****ing posts!:mad: :p :D

[Knifefighter]

Shooter:

Why the disdain? Of course many people aren't going to understand when you talk about broad generalities. Rather than talk about only about generalities, why not follow that up and share some of the specifics of your approach to knife training?

Tell us how you structure an individual training session. I assume your approach involves scenario based training. Why not talk about the specifics of that? How do you deal with generating the adrenaline dump? What are your techniques for dealing with the "grab & stab"? What's your approach for dealing with double blades? What are you teaching students in regard to how to work with their own knives? What have you found out when you do ground work with a blade? How are you approaching the various times that the knife can potentially come into play in an altercation? How is your approach similar and/or different from things being done by Blauer, et al. Are you using OODA principles in your training? If so, what have your results been? What have you found regarding blade serrations and cutting ability? What have your experiences been with how various types of blades can potentially become bound up with different types of clothing?



.

[Black Jack]

Boyd's OODA- Observe-Orient-Decide-Act

Scratching nose with LaGriffe....."ummmm me thinks Knifefighter may have trained law-enforcement at some time before maybe"....now looking for bandaids as dog stares at me.

[Shooter]

knifefighter, great questions and I have equally good answers. I would love to discuss them with you sometime if you join us in the fu-ragz.com chatroom. I'm just not interested in posting my answers here. With a dozen or so exceptions, KFO is pretty much a peanut gallery. Go ahead...tell me you disagree. :p

Besides, my writing style seems to really grate on people for some reason. I'm just a Tai Chi wannabe who doesn't actually know what he's talking about.

next...

[shaolin kungfu]

Stop being elitist and post your knife training.

[Skarbromantis]

Jumping in really late but I thought id share a story..

My landlord studies Kempo been doing it for 15 yrs,
drives a taxi, got attacked in his cab by 3 guys, one with a knife, while getting out of the cab, he slid his shoes off and put them on his hands, got out and defended against the knife with the rubber bottom of his shoes, took out all 3 guys, true story, on a side note, when the cops came they said he used too much force and charged him also, he beat it in court, just wanted to share.


Skard1

[Shooter]

You're demanding that I spoon-feed you information I've spent more than a decade of sacrifice to acquire? Yeah, right...

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
My landlord studies Kempo been doing it for 15 yrs, drives a taxi, got attacked in his cab by 3 guys, one with a knife, while getting out of the cab, he slid his shoes off and put them on his hands, got out and defended against the knife with the rubber bottom of his shoes, took out all 3 guys, true story,

While being attacked by three guys, one with a knife, he has time to get out of his taxi, take his shoes off and put them on his hands...???!!!???

Was he being attacked by three 95-year-old men?

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Skarbromantis
Jumping in really late but I thought id share a story..

My landlord studies Kempo been doing it for 15 yrs,
drives a taxi, got attacked in his cab by 3 guys, one with a knife, while getting out of the cab, he slid his shoes off and put them on his hands, got out and defended against the knife with the rubber bottom of his shoes, took out all 3 guys, true story, on a side note, when the cops came they said he used too much force and charged him also, he beat it in court, just wanted to share.


Skard1

So, your Sifu was in a car... and there were three guys on foot... with one knife?

And he got out of the car?

I think your Sifu is a few bricks shy of a load.

[shaolin kungfu]

That story is highly suspect.

[shaolin kungfu]

You're demanding that I spoon-feed you information I've spent more than a decade of sacrifice to acquire? Yeah, right...

So you come on here bashing everybody for not seeing the truth, and then refuse to help them when they ask for it. You say that no one understands, yet you refuse to help them reach a level of understanding.

Surely someone helped you, why can't you do the same for someon else?

[rogue]

What are your techniques for dealing with the "grab & stab"? Knifefighter, I've never thought about that until you mentioned it. After class I tried it out as both attacker and defender.
I'm assuming that the grab is to the chest and the stab is below the chest area. As the attacker I tried grabs to the wrist and that was a disaster. I also noticed that by grabbing the attacker gave up the distance advantage the knife gives and we were able to use that to advantage by low kicks, knees, striking to the grabbing side, and circling to the grabbing side, spinning him and going for an arm control of the knife arm which was the most successful technique I used. Once the grab was initiated it got very ugly with at best for the attacker getting the stab in to the gut, at worst having the defender use both arms to grab the knife and turn it on the attacker.

We were less than totally dynamic as the three of us were and maybe still are clueless as to being the attacker and defender.

[yenhoi]

rogue: experiment with one handed grabs to the neck (like half a thai plumb... attacker has control of defenders body...)

Also, situational types, like sitting down on a bus/subway and the guy next to you has your toe, knee and elbow...

etc

:eek:

[Skarbromantis]

One guy had a knife, all 3 were in the car, not out side, showed it to him in the back of the car, wanted money, my landlord (not Sifu stupid) stoped the car got out and as the story went,

suspect?

Maybe, but he did 11 months waiting till his court date in Toronto's Don Jail, for kicking the sh*t out of them.

Skard1

[rogue]

experiment with one handed grabs to the neck (like half a thai plumb... attacker has control of defenders body...) Interesting idea. I was also thinking about a grab to the front of the throat which would make a pretty good distraction and short term control.

Knifefighter is probably shaking his head right about now.:)

[Serpent]

Shooter, I always had you down as a decent guy with good knowledge, but it turns out you're just an elitist snob. If this is such a peanut gallery, why don't you fuk off instead of boosting your ego?

[Shooter]

Relax. This is a discussion forum where we're free to exchange ideas and opinions if we so choose...or not. The choice is ours.

I'm still a decent guy and have good knowledge. I'm just misunderstood. :( :D

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Shooter
Relax. This is a discussion forum where we're free to exchange ideas and opinions if we so choose...or not. The choice is ours.

I'm still a decent guy and have good knowledge. I'm just misunderstood. :( :D

I'm quite relaxed. Just sick of reading through your tripe to get to an interesting post.

You're right - this forum is for discussion. You are neither discussing or offering ideas or opinions. You just chime in every once in a while telling everyone how wrong they all are and then refuse to suggest why you think that. No one's interested in that.

So discuss or fuk off.

Simple really.

You're not misunderstood at all. You're just way too full of your own superiority.

[Internal Boxer]

So shooter, you are refusing to share you method of knife defence that could save someones life on the basis you discovered it, thats really noble of you mate!

[Shaolin-Do]

Just thought i should chime in.....
Ive cut myself tooo many times.... all needing stitches.
A few years ago, actually several years ago, I was a young dumb child. I was trying to open a supersoaker watergun with a knife. Long story short, Knife slips, and lands right in my left wrist, putting a PINHOLE in my radial artery. You wouldnt believe the amount of blood that comes out of a tiny hole, but it scared the f*cking sh!t out of me. I dont care how tough anyone is, you get stabbed and itll shock you for a minute, you see all that blood comming out, and its scary. Ive been cut any number of times, couple new years ago cut all my fingers on the left hand to the bone, now I dont have feeling in the back of my left fingers. But my point is, out of all the times Ive been cut, that one to the artery was scury as hell. Couldnt believe how much it bled. ...
rant over.
Im leaving... dont feel like being at work anymore.
Peaceout
SD
:)

[Shaolin-Do]

One more thing,
When I cut my wrist, Blood hit the roof, couches and walls. I rushed to the hospital.

When I cut my fingers to the bone, there was no pain at all. I wrapped my hand, stuck it in my armpit, and had my friend light the bong until this chick finally drove me to the hospital.

The shock from different stabs is significantly different.
As for that one dude... shooter or some ****.
This is a forum for open discussion, for the joint betterment of our kung fu. If you are not here to help, then why are you here? It took you years to learn... great. So share, help others here as they help each other... at least some times.
Or maybe you are just full of sh!t.
Eitherway, I dont really care, Im leaving. have fune, peaceout.
SD

[Knifefighter]

Grab & stab usually involves the knife man holding your clothing with the front hand. The rear hand holds the knife, pistoning back and forth with stabs.

[The Willow Sword]

Originally quoted by rubthebuddha

the idea of a knife as an extension of the hand is crap, because no hand can cut you like that

thats not the uhh hahah "point" of that expression.

The idea of a weapon being an extension of yourself,,say like a sword or a knife being an extension of your arm or HAND, is to convey to the practitioner that when you hold something you become a part of it temporarily and you are in total control of it, and those who are in total control of thier weapon are very dangerous indeed. especially a knife and i agree with you that knives are dangerous period.

i unfortunately WAS almost killed by someone weilding a knife and i still have the scar on my hand to prove it, although this person was not in control of his weapon and i was able to thwart it but not before my hand got cut and i bled pretty good from it.

the situaltion, in short, was this: we were facing each other and this person slashed in a downward angle (his left) at my face, i was able to block it and catching the blade on my palm i was then quickly with out thinking able to grab his wrist with my right hand(the cut hand)and directed his arm outward and he, for some reason, ducked and moved in (i guess to try and take me down) well it was a twist of fate for him as my left arm was able to wrap around his head/neck and i locked in and i just fell backwards, with his head smacking the ground and renerding him unconcious. well i got up and ran as fast as i could back to my apartment. this happened when i was 19 and i was walking home after a hard night of drinkin.
to this day i am weary of knives,,,,,i guess the best way to deal with a knife is to have a weapon of your own that is longer and more damaging than the knife. you can use your belt as a whip(if you can get it off your jeans fast enough before the opponent attacks) and even then there is no guarantee.
when i was teaching i had always told the students to just focus on the knife and NOTHING ELSE. who cares if you get punched or kicked,,your adrenaline will be running so fast anyway that you will probably not feel it much,,,getting hit with a foot or a fist is much better than getting slashed or stabbed.

Many respects,,,,The Willow Sword

[rogue]

Knifefighter, how far off were we (my training partners and I) on our observations?

[Neurotic]

when i was teaching i had always told the students to just focus on the knife and NOTHING ELSE. who cares if you get punched or kicked,,your adrenaline will be running so fast anyway that you will probably not feel it much,,,getting hit with a foot or a fist is much better than getting slashed or stabbed.

- Willowsword -

Interesting point, however it seems to go against much of what I have been taught about knife fighting (or knife defense).

Personally, what I feel can make a incredibly dangerous knife attack is someone who can control the knife and ALSO attack with his other limbs. Its no fun being punched in the head, just to be set up with a knife cross.

Or even using a jab style entry to get close, just so you can use the rear hand. (or to grab clothing and THEN use the rear hand)

However I do agree with the point that it IS better to get hit witha fist of feet, than to be stabbed. But if you get hit often enough/hard enough... - well you get my point.

Obviously we all have our own opinions, and experiences - but I would worry about ignoring the other weapons a knife fighter has.

Just my 2c

[The Willow Sword]

i respect your opinion and agree with it to a point. it just boils down to being aware of the life threatening danger that a knife poses to you. you can be aware of the other limbs that the opponent uses. in fact when i was teaching and we sparrred i did a little drill that was a good way to get you prepared mentally.
we would spar first hand to hand,,then i would give one person a play knife and then you would have to spar against them. the dynamic changes a bit in the sparrng,,you see the students become more aware of whats going on with thier opponent. in the thrid sequence of sparring i would take the knife away and they would spar hand to hand again. this time there is a much more improved method of dealing with someone as both opponents are more aware and in some cases more in control of thier self defense skills.

Many respects,,The Willow Sword

[Water Dragon]

I don't do much knifefighting, but what Neurotic said makes sense to me. in SC, we'll punch you before we hit you. I'm not too interested in beating you up, but that punch will give me the split second I need to set up my throw. I'm assuming that a punch would also give me the split second I need to stab/slash you.

[ZIM]

interesting article series, good site. (http://www.realfighting.com/0503/jkeatingframe.html)

[Mojo]

knifefighter
I've been thinking about your scenario all day. All I've come up with is
Let's say your opponents left hand has just grabbed your shirt.
Immediatly cover his left hand with my left hand, and hold it to your chest as you push his left elbow, with my right hand palm up, to my left . This torques the opponents body in a way that makes it hard to stab you with the other hand.

I'm haven't worked it out passed this and it's time to get off work.
How am I doing so far ? ;)