Footwork - the most neglected area of Ving Tsun??

[stuartm]

Hi all,

Im really doing my students heads in lately by spending increasing amounts of time on footwork. From my own experience of being a student, there is never enough time dedicated to the 'simple' art of moving. The more time i spend teaching, the more time i dedicate to footwork.

I know mine is far from brilliant and wondered what others views were on footwork and its importance. I for one, stress the importance of footwork early on in my students development, most notably by getting them to practsie nothing else but lok sau and stepping / shifting with no attacks for at least 15-20 mins every class.

Would also be grateful to hear of any videos out there which focus on footwork specifically. I gather Sifu Augustine Fong excels in this area.

Regards, Stuart

[teazer]

I agree. It's all well & good for people to say you can just rely on what's in SLT, but not for the first few years. In that time, you need to know how to angle, advance etc.
The downside though is that it's difficult to get people moving in a correct fashion until their body has become better integrated.
They develop bad habits etc. which have to be worked out over time.

[black and blue]

In the organisation I am a part of, footwork and body movement is very emphasised. The Bong/Lap drill, Dan Chi Sau and Seung Chi Sau are all learnt from a stationary position, but my Sifu introduces movement into these drills as soon as possible.

Poon Sau in most classes is done stationary for five or ten minutes and then the rest of our Chi Sau practise (plain old poon sau :) , or Gor Sau is done on-the-go).

A useful demo I've seen several times is a drill (say, a Pak Sau drill or a Tan Sau drill) done at full speed, then show slowly, then show several times without the hand movement (e.g. Pak or Tan), just the footwork to illustrate how the body has to move away from the line of attack... it also FORCES (ha ha) the less observant students like myself to what our Sifu's feet.

This is best illustrated when you are the person punching him. His footwork is such that you always feel as though you're punching air.

[wingchunalex]

I definately think footwork is over looked a lot. Having good footwork is the most important aspect of defence, its not the hands. If you aren't their how can they hit you?

I think it is important to practice footwork drills outside of chi sau and lop sau. islolating the movement of the feet with the hands held in bai jong is a good way to get light on your feet but rooted at the same time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

The single biggest difference between Traditional Wing Chun and VingTsun (I've done both systems) is the amount of shifting, sidesteppeing, and attacking footwork that exists in TWC. (There are other major differences as well, but the footwork is the biggest).

Get your hands on the 5 volume video tape set that Grandmaster
Willliam Cheung put out about 4 years ago...his website is:
www.cheungswingchun.com

[yuanfen]

Victor-

sidestepping,attacking and shifting - differences yes-- in the way its done in many wc lines compared to twc. Differences do not mean that the functions dont exist. I shift, sidestep and attck too-
nowhere near in a TWC way and I dont see the need for changing.
PS/btw

While some of your statements are off the wall- I found your summary of what your sifu thought about another system and their similarities- interesting. I dont see the need for further elaboration by me anyway.

[45degree fist]

You should have your students drill chum kiu over and over. this is where wing chun starts to grow its wheels. plus they can acquire the needed chum kiu attributes.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by 45degree fist
You should have your students drill chum kiu over and over. this is where wing chun starts to grow its wheels. plus they can acquire the needed chum kiu attributes.
IMHO, even before a student is in Chum Kiu level, he can start practicing footwork. In our WC practice, students practice stationary drills. Once they are proficient with the drills, they can incorporate footwork in these drills. Of course, Chum Kiu will give them a deeper understanding of footwork once they get there.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Wingman

IMHO, even before a student is in Chum Kiu level, he can start practicing footwork. In our WC practice, students practice stationary drills. Once they are proficient with the drills, they can incorporate footwork in these drills. Of course, Chum Kiu will give them a deeper understanding of footwork once they get there.

how can you learn to walk, if you dont know how to stand?

theres a reason the drills are stationary before chum kiu. IMO the system follows a very logical progression and if you rush it because students don't want to put in the time then their lack of effort will show.

if you don't know the stance and practice footwork; you're simply practicing wrong footwork and wont accomplish anything in your wing chun. this is because the footwork is based on the stance. a poor idea (or no idea) of what the stance is will lead to footwork that is not compatible with a good wing chun stance. beginners have at best a superficial knowledge of what the legs should be doing. no need to have them ingrain bad habits to unlearn later.

[namron]

Our kwoon has a heavy slant on footwork.

This is probably because my sifu is not heavily built and thus relies more on speed and evasion.

Part of our warm up always involves footwook, right from a beginers level, we try to emphasize to our students the concepts behind evading linear and circular attacks (ie: stepping off the line of a straight attack and stepping outside the arc or cutting the arc of a circular attack).

The difference between getting sconed and evading is often a heartbeat or half step apart.

[CLOUD ONE]

One of the fundamentals of wing chun is to use less!!!

So why all the emphasis on moving or footwork?

Footwork is only for the people who haven't practised enough on their root skills!!!

Whatever force is coming to you you have to receive- do you receive moving or in a stationary manner?

Once you learn the stance properly you can decide whether you want to move or stay and whichever manner you want to move, fly through the air or kick or step or pivot.

without the correct principles of stance and footwork your balance would be impaired so your defence weak.

But not many people practice enough on stance i.e SLT to know the difference;)

[teazer]

Originally posted by 45degree fist
You should have your students drill chum kiu over and over. this is where wing chun starts to grow its wheels. plus they can acquire the needed chum kiu attributes.

IMO drilling a form over & over is one of the least efficient ways of learning specific movements.
How can they perform the form before they know the moves within it? Unless of course you want to stand there & correct every little positional 'fault' someone else is doing. How efficient is that??

[teazer]

Originally posted by CLOUD ONE
Footwork is only for the people who haven't practised enough on their root skills!!!

I agree strong stancework is crucial. By your argument though, why is there any footwork in the forms at all?
Similarly, if beginners 'haven't practiced enough of their root skills" and would thus need footwork, who would?

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The single biggest difference between Traditional Wing Chun and VingTsun (I've done both systems) is the amount of shifting, sidesteppeing, and attacking footwork that exists in TWC. (There are other major differences as well, but the footwork is the biggest).

Get your hands on the 5 volume video tape set that Grandmaster
Willliam Cheung put out about 4 years ago...his website is:
www.cheungswingchun.com

Traditional Wing Chun makes a big deal about having the so called footwork. I have talked to several different Wing Chun Sifus about this and the consensus is that they all have their own footwork which is comparable to anything that TWC does.
TWC footwork mostly advocates stepping and not dragging the feet. William Cheung, in one of his seminars, explained to me that you move by picking your feet up like a horse; you can see this approach to stepping quite clearly in the book "Advanced Wing Chun", chum kiu section.

Other sifus claim that you should avoid lifting the heel off the ground to much when stepping as the idea is to focus your energy forward when moving with the movement being intiated from the waist.

Another observation I made is that TWC does not do much pivoting. They would rather step with the pressure as opposed to pivoting with it.

TWC advocates fighting on the blindside. I think for a big person this can work but I think its better for a small person to fight on the inside. It can be very difficult to get to someones blindside if they face you square on. Also applying pressure to someone from the blindside does not have the same destablizing affect on their structure as if you were to apply pressure to their COG from an inside position.

BTW, I have the 5 video set and only basic stepping patterns are shown on it.

Cheungs footwork patterns seem to repeat themselves over and over again in all the (moving) empty hand forms -- ck, bj, bjd,mj.

Forms basically start with foot circles to get into neutral stance
followed by side stepping into a side stance and moving into a front stance by moving your back leg through the middle. The T-step concept is not unique to TWC and I have seen some WC heavyweights critizing the T-step as not good WC. (weight all on back leg and base is to narrow)

[45degree fist]

Originally posted by teazer


IMO drilling a form over & over is one of the least efficient ways of learning specific movements.
How can they perform the form before they know the moves within it? Unless of course you want to stand there & correct every little positional 'fault' someone else is doing. How efficient is that??


Drilling a specific form over and over again is probably the best way to learn specific movements, hence Si num tao.

and if they are not ready for chum kiu dont let them do it this was merely a suggestion for stuartm he asked for advice. Unless the advice is totally ignorant or nieve dont ridicule it.

and if somones form needs corrections then work on it.

[teazer]

Originally posted by 45degree fist
Drilling a specific form over and over again is probably the best way to learn specific movements, hence Si num tao.

and if they are not ready for chum kiu dont let them do it this was merely a suggestion for stuartm he asked for advice. Unless the advice is totally ignorant or nieve dont ridicule it.

and if somones form needs corrections then work on it.

Ok,
1. Try this example - teaching someone to do the centerline punch. Is this taught by correcting it in SLT, so every time they repeat the form they practice 5 punches. They would really have to do the form a lot to get any good at it. Isn't it better to learn the punch first, practice applications, get the person to understand it, then when they get to the form you can just say "at this point do a C/L punch" & they do one. How is stepping different? Teach the skill, teach the application, when they do the form they'll understand the movement.

2. Pal, you haven't heard ridicule yet. Just disagreement combined with the reasoning behind it. Personally I thought Stuart's original drill idea would be better than the "repeat forms" suggestion.

3. Just call me lazy. I prefer better results through less effort. It allows me to spend more time practicing!

[45degree fist]

Ok I can totally agree with doing something right the first and every time. on one said to repeatedly drill an improper action.
I merely said to have them drill the form through proper drilling the attributes will arise.

If the only reason you are here is to argue thats fine. just let everyone know this is your purpose. so they can focus on the original purpose of this thread, sharing ideas and experiences.
and you will probably say you were just sharing yours.

[teazer]

Actually, I totally agree with what you are saying, and no one has said anything about drilling improper actions. Just do the forms over & over, get lots of feedback, eventually the technique will work & everything will be fine. It'll just take a lot longer and the instructor will have to spend more time doing corrections -
You make your own choice.

Now, if you disagree, that's fine. The question is, who's arguing & who's being defensive?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

(Short pause.)

A: No it isn't.

[45degree fist]

thats fine teazer Im not arguing im just making my point clear but Im glad you finally see my position.

Now we can move forward and get back to the original purpose of this thread.

[namron]

Originally posted by marcelino31


Traditional Wing Chun makes a big deal about having the so called footwork. I have talked to several different Wing Chun Sifus about this and the consensus is that they all have their own footwork which is comparable to anything that TWC does.
TWC footwork mostly advocates stepping and not dragging the feet. William Cheung, in one of his seminars, explained to me that you move by picking your feet up like a horse; you can see this approach to stepping quite clearly in the book "Advanced Wing Chun", chum kiu section.

I agree. I imagine that there are many variations of different footwork within each separate wing chun family.

Other sifus claim that you should avoid lifting the heel off the ground to much when stepping as the idea is to focus your energy forward when moving with the movement being intiated from the waist.

This is an interesting concept that IMO some other martial art styles use to uproot and control the opponents balance while retaining a solid base. Akido for instance makes heavy use of sliding energy when controlling opponents with locks and arm bars.

Another observation I made is that TWC does not do much pivoting. They would rather step with the pressure as opposed to pivoting with it.

I am a TWC guy and I much prefer to pivot where the energy is correct (ie: forward pressure). We usually do this by moving our footwork into a side neutral stance (hope you are familar with this terminology). This allows me a quicker counter. The side side step comes into play IMO where there is a deep or heavy attack that I can redirect and exploit the opponents balance while gaining a better angle.

TWC advocates fighting on the blindside. I think for a big person this can work but I think its better for a small person to fight on the inside. It can be very difficult to get to someones blindside if they face you square on. Also applying pressure to someone from the blindside does not have the same destablizing affect on their structure as if you were to apply pressure to their COG from an inside position.

My experience has found it to be the other way around. On the inside you have to deal with both arms, operating on the blindside buys you some space by moving you away from the rear arm, This allows you to deal with the one arm rather than two (at least until the opponent turns). I do agree that you can take good balance by attacking the inside crook of the elbow and stepping however.

BTW, I have the 5 video set and only basic stepping patterns are shown on it.

Cheungs footwork patterns seem to repeat themselves over and over again in all the (moving) empty hand forms -- ck, bj, bjd,mj.

Forms basically start with foot circles to get into neutral stance
followed by side stepping into a side stance and moving into a front stance by moving your back leg through the middle. The T-step concept is not unique to TWC and I have seen some WC heavyweights critizing the T-step as not good WC. (weight all on back leg and base is to narrow)

The T step is only meant to ever be transitory, if you leave yourself in a narrow stance your stuffed. This would be particulary true where some one caught/grappled both your legs in a take down, broken structure and broken knees.

Personally I prefer to leave a wider gap between the feet when executing this footwork so my base is wider and I can kick if I choose to.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by namron

This is an interesting concept that IMO some other martial art styles use to uproot and control the opponents balance while retaining a solid base. Akido for instance makes heavy use of sliding energy when controlling opponents with locks and arm bars.

-> I personally do not like moving "like a horse" and I prefer to minimize picking up the heel. Also TWC advocates moving on the balls of the feet -- I prefer to move with the whole foot, to give a more solid base, as you mentioned.

I am a TWC guy and I much prefer to pivot where the energy is correct (ie: forward pressure). We usually do this by moving our footwork into a side neutral stance (hope you are familar with this terminology). This allows me a quicker counter. The side side step comes into play IMO where there is a deep or heavy attack that I can redirect and exploit the opponents balance while gaining a better angle.

--> I am familiar with the terminology.

My experience has found it to be the other way around. On the inside you have to deal with both arms, operating on the blindside buys you some space by moving you away from the rear arm, This allows you to deal with the one arm rather than two (at least until the opponent turns). I do agree that you can take good balance by attacking the inside crook of the elbow and stepping however.

--> You can still fight on the inside and move in at a blindside angle, to avoid the other arm. I prefer being in a position where I can control the elbow from the inside than from the outside --which is the case when you contact someones arm from a blindside outside position.

Another predictament is that if your opponent faces you square on, it is very difficult to get to their blindside and even if you do they can simply change the angle using footwork to get you back in on their inside or simply step away. Also if someone is bigger than you and if you make contact on their elbow, say with a pak sao from the blind side, they can use their body leverage, to easily break your control. You don't get the same kind of control as if you were to do it from the inside where you can easily break someones balance. If the blindside is presented then by all means take it. However to blindly pursue the blindside as a fighting strategy is foolhardy. In the videos when Cheung goes to the blindside his opponent is standing still and usually leaves one shoulder extended both before and after a technique. In the real world, a good fighter will not do this!

The T step is only meant to ever be transitory, if you leave yourself in a narrow stance your stuffed. This would be particulary true where some one caught/grappled both your legs in a take down, broken structure and broken knees.

Personally I prefer to leave a wider gap between the feet when executing this footwork so my base is wider and I can kick if I choose to.

--> The T step is used mainly as a way to side step an attack and also fits into getting into the blindside. If you prefer fighting on the inside you really don't need to use a T - step

[HuangKaiVun]

Don't forget about using the legs to execute grappling moves (e.g. chokes, breaks, etc . . .)

[Mr Punch]

I think as soon as someone has a basic idea of the first section of slt they should be taught basic turning to learn how the root is affected by basic movement. Then, as they learn lap sau drill etc, they should be shown turning versions. This in turn (groan :rolleyes:!) helps their later understanding of the turning in the first sections of ck. Then, in step, (no, stop, no more!:rolleyes::D)stepping should be taught to prepare for a better understanding of the stepping section of ck...

that way, the basic steps reinforce the understanding of the basic forms, which reinforces the energy (rooting, floating, connecting and disconnecting the bridges etc) and applications.

You then come full circle (bang!!!) by learning huen bo before bj, and in preparation for attempting to master the stillness of optimum movement.

caution to stuartm: IMO of course... if you do 1 footwork drill in singles, then do 9 in pairs. Moving your feet with nobody else there to get in your way is a waste of time!




Oh, and thanks to our special guest, the wing chun expert HKV... good to see you back... the place just isn't as funny without you! You forgot about using the chair legs HKV!:D