Cardio/stamina training?

[IRONMONK]

Hi,

I have read that streetfights last around 3 secs but I know that sh*t happens and a fight can last much longer.
Anyway does anyone do stamina/cardio training to supplement their wing chun training?how much time do u spend on cardio training?what type of cardio training do u do? e.g jogging,skipping,circuit training ,large number of chain punches etc
secondly is it true that if u train in endurance activites it has a negative effect on power(i.e slow twitch vs fast twitch fibres e.g. A 100 meter sprinter is out of breath when he/she finishes the race but they never train for endurance!!!

Regards,

Faze.

[yenhoi]

At any rate being more fit means you can train more and longer with less chance of injury - things that are very important to "martial artists" who train to train.

Training in general is a balancing act, specially at "higher" levels, so yes, doing a undue amount of endurance training can "negatively" affect your so-called power. It all depends on the context and intensity of your training.

:eek:

[reneritchie]

Interval training. You can time or use ****lek. 3 seconds can be *really* long if you have no cardio.

I have a sisuk who was the product of the early PRC sports program and one a lot of challenge fights in China and HK simply because his opponents were chain smokers and after a short time, were so gassed, he could basically do what he wanted.

[foolinthedeck]

siu lim tao for 45 mins plus.
horse stance - preferably with pole for mins at a time.
chi sau until zombie mode kicks in.

in my experience being able to do any motion slowly allows you do also do it fast, it also applies that whoever can perform siu lim tao with relaxation for 45 mins, would be able to perform at peak relaxation for long enough to defeat a foe.

swimming is also a good exercise as it puts no undue stress on any part of the body, and helps if fighting in water.

power - depends on whether you rely on strength and speed or other means...

[anerlich]

Endurance is HIGHLY activity-specific.

boxing/kickboxing fitness does not translate into ground grappling fitness. Then you do that for a while, and your grappling cardio gets pretty good, then take it back to the feet and make it clinch work and takedowns only - you get gassed quickly yet again.

I run because I enjoy it, but I think training rounds on various bags and equipment like a boxer is better for a standup fighter.

[Merryprankster]

Anerlich is correct. But I have found that standing grappling is a pretty good cardio routine for both standing striking and ground grappling.

Foolinthedeck--I don't think you're right. If I train to run slowly it doesn't mean I can run fast.

Rene is also right. You HAVE to be in shape. Is a 15 second fight unrealistic? I don't think it is. And I know for a fact that 15 seconds of fighting effort is murder on an unconditioned human.

[wingchunalex]

I do shadow boxing with wing chun

do rounds on the heavy bag

run (sometimes, i hate running)

do northern style forms for endurance (they are fun)

weight lifting

basic conditioning ie-pushups, cruches, etc.

[reneritchie]

What kind of YJKYM are you in that let's you stand that way for 45min?

You could always do the BTT approach, 1 round standup, 1 round wrestling, 1 round bjj, repeat... 8)

MP is also correct, you train slowly at first to develop relaxation, then you need to speed up maintaining the relaxation (unless you're veering off into a Jam Jong/Zan Zhuang like activity).

[foolinthedeck]

merry prankster:
to be able to run fast u have to be able to run slow, that means that your technique must be exact, not just 'fast' top athletes are able to mimic the exact movements of fast running at slow speeds, this is not simply running slowly. being able to perform any action at slow speeds but with the same exactness will increase speed.

45 mins in siu lim tao which stance? the normal one, the basic one. whats the problem with that???

[reneritchie]

What's normal? How deeply are you sunk? Are your knees only 1-fist width apart? Are you training (and thus tiring) your horse or just locking it in place and moving your arms for the 45 min.?

[foolinthedeck]

knees approx 3 fist widths apart
sunk down but not to put pressure on knees
stance is not 'locked' its relaxed, but doesnt move for full 45 mins.
toes point in
knees follow toes
pelvis relaxed as everything else...

same stance i was ever taught, same i ever used for siu lim tao.

do i sense some problem??

[reneritchie]

No, just curious what the attributes are of a horse that you can hold for 45 min.

For me personally, I find it more valuable to 'work' the horse than to keep it in place for long periods of time.

[foolinthedeck]

thats fine, but as i said before, if you can do it slow it can be done fast, by holding still, movement is easier, but movement does not signify still ness

[reneritchie]

That's actually not true, based on my understanding of neurology and kenesiology (though maybe one of the docs can clarify or correct). If you train slow, you can do it slow. Different muscle setup, different neuro setup. To do it fast, you need to consciously and specifically work it fast.

Experientially, many people who train slow seem to tense up when they're required to go fast, especially if the requirement is application on the reflex level.

BTW - Since this is a thread on cardio, does anyone do any WCK specific drills for cardio that both mimic WCK ways of moving and require the expenditure of effort on cadio-beneficial scale?

[Merryprankster]

If you train slow, you can do it slow. Different muscle setup, different neuro setup. To do it fast, you need to consciously and specifically work it fast.

Bingo. This is why lifting powerlifting-style and olympic style lifting are counter productive. The olympic lifter HAS to move quickly. The powerlifter just needs to lift it.

Another example is that people who train to run long distances slowly get *****ed in sprints. They aren't trained for it. Completely different. Not only is the neuro-muscular adaptation different, there are significant differences in lactic acid threshold and metabolic pathway optimization.

Holding a stance and moving slowly does NOT equal fast movement. Throwers do plyos for a reason. To learn to move fast, you gotta practice moving fast.

However, to ingrain movement patterns you do have to start out slow or you'll probably learn it wrong.

[fa_jing]

4 X 5 minute rounds striking with bag gloves and shoes on the airshield? Pacing oneself, but working it to the bone by the end....good for cardio and still WCK

Lots of kicks, San Sik can be good for cardio

Outside of WCK, Jumping rope, Hindu Squats, and playing Basketball - I recommend these highly for Cardio.

[wingchunalex]

you can make up combinations of wing chun movements and then repeat the pattern. its sort of like tae bo but with wing chun moves. punch, punch, thrust kick and do that 25 times then do the other side. that is a very basic example.

heavy bag is great

sparring can get you breathing too.

[Neurotic]

Personally - I run once or twice a week.
(depends on how often I end up walking the dog)

But it has been great for my cardio.

I also alternate how I am running.

Sometimes I will run a flat out km.. others I will run a slower 3 or 4 km run..

More often than not I will get to the end of 3½ km, and up my running speed over the last 500 meters until I'm up at a sprint. (That one kills me).

That being said - I used to never think I could run long distance! (I'm still amazed I can run over 3 km without a huge issue)
I used to hate running too.

Of course sparring, and the rest is always a good workout - especially if you have a good partner that you can alternate feeding with for a long time, as you can regulate the session and keep the energy up, and work for a long time.

You can also work set time rounds - 1, 2.. however many minutes you like, take a short break.. then back into it again.

On the flip side - I love running simply because well - if I got a group of 15 people wanting to kill me - I like to know I can run and run and run without having to get too tired! :D

Same note - if a fight only lasts 3-15 (depends who you talk to) seconds - who says there isn't going to be his mate standing behind him after you drop the first guy. Bad time to be on the floor trying to pick up your breath.

[IRONMONK]

When i did wing chun with another instructor he made us do alot of cardio stuff-continuos chain punches,push ups pad work etc.However when i used to this i used to find it hard to get to sleep and difficult to get up in the morning.My arms were so sore i had difficulty lifting them up.However i felt that i had no fighting skill just soreness.

The instructor that i train with now doesnt do much cardio (sweat sessions) but i like the way he teaches. So i want to do some cardio in my spare time however i dont like the soreness u get from this i.e i want to be able to punch the next day without intense soreness!!
is there any legal supplements u can take to help recovery?


regards,

Faze.

[AndrewS]

Faze,

soreness will fade as you condition in. Back in sillier days I could do a 2000, 1500, 1000, 500,400, 300, 200, 100 chain punch progression on the wall back with 50 turning punches for my rest intervals 2-3x a week and not notice it. The body will adapt to d*mn near anything.

That being said- that was a stupid way to train, and didn't get me much, probably slowing me down a good bit.

For solo cardio- bodyweight exercises are good. Interval training rocks (high intensity bursts with active recovery periords), and is the way to go for fighting. Falls are great cardio- do a set of 20 fast, standing with punches- you can't practice falling enough, anyway. Shadowbox rounds- always very good.

Soreness will occur as you adapt, eventually you will get through it. To alleviate muscle soreness- stretch well after your workout. Consume at least 20-30 grams of highly bioavailable protien within 1hr of training (whey protein). Creatine tends to improve my recovery times dramatically, and I get good results from HMB, too. I would recommend 5 grams glutamine with your protein supplement, too. A soak in the hot tub can help, also. And get a good night's rest, easy on the booze.

The most important stuff on that list-
1). rest
2). protein
3). stretch

The rest is gravy and gets expensive, though I've found a nice whey supplement with 5g glutamine per serving.

Later,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

Falls are great cardio

Is that like the sprawlling drill where you basically drop down, sprawl out (into a pseudo push up position) and then jump back up again?

Are there any other good sources of protein? I try to eat real foods but will suplement if I have to, so just checking on the real foods alternative 8)

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

nah, just fall backwards punching, land with hands in man/wu, man gherk up, back heel planted, then stand back up basically making a front step using 0/100 mechanics. I vary these with falls to each side (twisting mid-air to land facing up), and forward (doing the same thing). Looks kinda like some of the Systema stuff floating around out there (or one of my cats recovering from a bad balance day on top of the couch).

Supplements- Whey protein. I trust EAS's stuff, but my favorite right now is Supreme Whey Protein by Dynamatize- tasty and has 6 grams of glutamine. (BTW- 1-2 scoops of vanilla, 1 cup blueberries- frozen, a banana, some fresh ginger, 2-3 cups soy milk, and some flax-seed oil, plus glucosamine powder or liquid if you aren't doing tabs is a nice shake. Bananna, strawberry pistachio is tasty, too)

Honestly, I can't emphasize enough how much a good, rapidly bioavailable protein source within 30-45 minutes post-workout can improve the next day. One of my veggie bros totally eliminated his post-workout soreness with soy protein supplementation.


Later,

Andrew

[reneritchie]

Ah, Ukemi, WCK style, LOL! Thanks man, I gotta try that!

Just bought a blender, so I might give the whey a try to. What're your thoughts on carb consumption pre/post workout? I've been trying to look into overall how to aid in fueling then recovering, but everything looks so over the map.

[AndrewS]

Rene,

I think the carb thing depends on the person. I try to cut down on carbs, eat low fat, and max the protein. When I can hold to this, I lean out nicely. If I'm training more I'll up the carbs a bit, but, I do ok without loading. My body fat is pretty high though, and this is what seems to work best for me, after years of experimentation, based on my training regimen and body.

Later,

Andrew

[foolinthedeck]

why dont i see any of these kind of threads in the internal arts sections???
are all of you americans???

[anerlich]

are all of you americans???

I'm not.

[reneritchie]

I am a Canadian.

[kj]

Originally posted by anerlich


I'm not.

You'd have made a d@mn good one though.


Originally posted by reneritchie
I am a Canadian.

Same difference.

J/K. ;)
- kj

[IRONMONK]

Thanxs AndrewS for the advice on nutrition and dealing with soreness.
Yeah i like the idea of practising those falls-i have difficulty with that ..falling without instinctively putting my hands down on the ground and getting up from the position is a struggle for me!!

regards,

Faze.