aliveness

[IRONMONK]

Hi,

This is a clip about aliveness training in martial arts:

http://www.graugart.dk/temp/sbg.wmv

what do you think of this?
is your wing chun training "alive"?
or do u think that u do have to learn co-operative training first and then later do the alive training i.e learn to walk before you learn to run etc?

regards,

Faze.

[KenWingJitsu]

Heh heh heh.

If you didn't hate me before, you just might now.
Most WIng CHun training....I wuld say a good oh..90 % of it or so, is trained 'dead'. Few train it alive. All the drills are dead.

This doesnt mean you cannot make it alivce,...it's just seldom if ever taught that way. However, when I release my vieo tapes, you too shall learn how to become a devastating fighter using Wing Chun in an alive format.

lol. Sorta kidding, sorta not.

I trained with Matt. He is correct. This should get interesting....we can call this "the sparring thread part II". :D

[foolinthedeck]

i agree i think... couldnt load the link too slow.
most drills are 'dead'.
i believe my chi sau is alive, or rather awake - for the sleepers are only half alive,
and yet not simply awake, rather aware.
and yet not simply aware.
chi sau is the silent talk, not sleep talking, but beyond conscious movement.

[planetwc]

Wow!!!!

That is a wonderful clip! Matt is right on the money.

[Spectre]

I understand the idea that the video is trying to express.

With that being said, I believe that both dead and alive exercises have their place in training. When to use dead and when to use alive is really what is important. I also think that dead exercises are much more important than alive.

The purpose of dead exercise is to try and execute the 'technique' as perfect as possible in repetition in order to commit it to memory and make it an ingrained response/reflex instead of a thought.

The purpose of alive exercise is to evaluate the combat effectiveness of the learned responses in order to find the weak areas that need more work.

The problem that I find with alive exercises is that if done with a martial art brother/sister in the same style/school you are not truly able to analyze the effectiveness.

In a real fight the truth of the matter is that neither you nor your opponent have any idea what the other can do or is going to do. When practicing the alive exercise with a brother/sister they DO have a good idea of what you can do or what you will do to a given situation. This can cause the brother/sister to react differently than someone on the street since they know how the energy works.

To seriously utilize alive exercise you would need a partner who has no working knowledge of your art.

Alive exercises are closer to real than dead exercises, but they still are not the real thing.

Just my spare change.

Kevin

[EnterTheWhip]

Fortunately, my sound card isn't working, so I didn't hear anything. But certainly what I saw was worthless.

[KenWingJitsu]

Spectre.......I agree with most of your post except the part where you say dead training is more important than alive training. it's the other way around.

[TjD]

was that wing chun?

[Block]

was that wing chun?

I think it was JKD based on how he said unfortunately 90% of JKD schools train dead.


the sparring thread part II".

Dead on.

[t_niehoff]

KenWingJitsu wrote:

If you didn't hate me before, you just might now. KWJ

IMO part of success is being hated by the right people. :) TN

Most WIng CHun training....I wuld say a good oh..90 % of it or so, is trained 'dead'. Few train it alive. All the drills are dead. KWJ

Agreed. All pattern drills are dead. You can never develop real fighting skill with dead drills. TN

This doesnt mean you cannot make it alivce,...it's just seldom if ever taught that way. KWJ

IMO most mistake the basic drills as the end-all of training and not merely the beginning. What is important is understanding the concept of "aliveness" in training -- once you "get it" you'll be able to use it to move beyond the basic level; if you don't, you'll never develop. TN

However, when I release my vieo tapes, you too shall learn how to become a devastating fighter using Wing Chun in an alive format. KWJ

LOL! "Aliveness" isn't that difficult a concept. TN

Terence

[captain]

hey,terrybaby,forget being a lawyer,with lines
like "part of success is being hated by the right people",
i see a big future for you in writing greetings cards!!!

RUSSELL.

[t_niehoff]

captain wrote:

hey,terrybaby,forget being a lawyer,with lines
like "part of success is being hated by the right people",
i see a big future for you in writing greetings cards!!! C

I was paraphrasing what I thought was a fairly well-known quotation (by singer-songwriter Johnny Cash). I guess I shouldn't overestimate the education of my "fanclub." TN

Terence

[Spectre]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Spectre.......I agree with most of your post except the part where you say dead training is more important than alive training. it's the other way around.

I suppose it depends on what is being focused on in your training. Neither dead nor alive exercises by themselves will be the key to training. It takes a combination of both and a constant reexamination during each type to make either of them useful.

The reason I believe that dead exercises are more important is that they are teaching the movement and technique to the mind and body in order to ingrain them as a reflex/reaction instead of having to think of what you want to do in a fight. If they are not reflexes and you have to stop and think about it, all of the alive exercises in the world will not help you.

The second reason is that basically it is hard to find an individual who wants to participate in alive exercises who knows absolutely nothing about the functionaity of your art. Because of this the dead exercises will take a larger percentage of your training time than the alive.

Again, just my spare change.

Kevin

[Zhuge Liang]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
captain wrote:

hey,terrybaby,forget being a lawyer,with lines
like "part of success is being hated by the right people",
i see a big future for you in writing greetings cards!!! C

I was paraphrasing what I thought was a fairly well-known quotation (by singer-songwriter Johnny Cash). I guess I shouldn't overestimate the education of my "fanclub." TN

Terence

What does education have to do with musical tastes?

[AndrewS]

Terence,

'this is to all the people in the Nashville music industry who've helped me along the way' (paraphrased). I think the sentiment behind the image with this quote is relevant here.

Patterns- do you mean A then B, or A or B then B or C. Making the jump from one to the other is the foundation of making something live (as later problems become differing forms of resistance).

Spectre,

even 'programming' reflexes can and should be done 'live'- with the timing and energy of a real attack, as well as variability to prevent falling into pattern. This is what even soft poon sao should do, though it often becomes mindless choreography. Choreography, 'dead' training, should be performed just long enough to get the pattern, and even then, I prefer to teach 'patterns' by shaping them from appropriate mechanics animated by appropriate energy receiving appropriate impulses to create the right shapes. Just making shapes is, IMO, useless.

Resistance and sparring are just *part* of something being done 'live'. Thai boxers (in thailand, in the Netherlands, not at the local meatgrinder) train very gently, quickly, and with good timing, but are quite conservative with their bodies, working on specific things to play and learn. Constant unfocused brawling is, at a certain point, counter-productive.

All this being said- Thornton is dead on. Most people don't like to play live 'cos of either ego issues or fear of pain. That's part of the reason most people aren't very good.

Andrew

[PaulH]

Andrew S,

You sum it up rather neatly :"All this being said- Thornton is dead on. Most people don't like to play live 'cos of either ego issues or fear of pain. That's part of the reason most people aren't very good." It always is a humbling experience for me when I put on the gloves and see so little from so much that I can actually do. My feeling is skills comes from being coached from the one who know. What is a genius? One who knows what others do not know and see what others do not see.

Regards,

[Spectre]

AndrewS,

What are your opinions on alive exercises with a partner who is 'in style' as oppossed to someone who has no knowledge of your art?

For even alive exercises to be useful, your opponent/partner would have to be different every time to be true to the randomness of reality.

If the same handful of partners are used each time than an educated knowledge of the offense and defense of the partner can skew the effectiveness of the technique when used on an unknown on the street engaging you.

Once again, alive exercises ARE closer to reality than dead, but they are still far from reality. Can the alive exercises actually give you a false sense of security when faced with reality?

What are your thoughts?

Kevin

[AndrewS]

Kevin,

there are plusses and minuses. My main training partner and I both do escrima, and we box rounds for fun every so often, working on basic boxing skills and timing. Over the last two years we've played boxer against WT, each of us putting on the gloves and making things fairly real (while being careful of each other's safety). Over that time we've both learned each other's timing and holes, closed holes, found new ones, tried new tricks, etc.

End result- we hit each other about as much as when we started. End result with other people- we are both way better at dealing with boxing attack from others (and I train with a number of people with significant semi-pro ring time).

I think because we know each other so well, we are more effective at boxing each other than most people with more experience- we make tougher opponents for each other.

As to the knowlege of offense and defense- yeah, that could be limiting if you didn't have creative partners with a rich depth of martial experience, or work with people outside of your group to pick up new tricks, or cross-train. That's not my situation.

False sense of security? I've dealt with 'reality', as have many of my peers. We don't encourage that sort of delusion in our juniors.

Later,

Andrew

[Block]

Just a quick question to those who have done sparring "aliveness" training.

I haven't done this sort of training before but it always seemed to me from what I saw on videos that Wing Chun sparring disintegrated into a boxing match.

For one, the use of gloves means that a hit that would normally knock someone out or at least make them "brain blink" doesn't make them react as badly and a normal follow-up Wing Chun strike or technique couldn't be used.

I would also have thought that gloves would prevent half the strikes, locks and manoeuvres that I have learnt.

Just wondering what the experienced guys have found. Can you really do Wing Chun with gloves on?

[anerlich]

"I haven't done this sort of training before but it always seemed to me from what I saw on videos that Wing Chun sparring disintegrated into a boxing match."

There's nothing inferior about good technical boxing. It's not a low art.

Wing Chun "disintegrating" into flailing about says nothing about boxing but everything about the quality of the practitioners concerned.

"For one, the use of gloves means that a hit that would normally knock someone out or at least make them "brain blink" doesn't make them react as badly and a normal follow-up Wing Chun strike or technique couldn't be used."

Have you even been hit by a competent gloved puncher? It is hardly like getting hit with a pillow, as you are implying. Go to a decent boxing gym and find out for yourself.

You're not telling me you spar full contact bare knuckle with shots to the head allowed are you?

"I would also have thought that gloves would prevent half the strikes, locks and manoeuvres that I have learnt."

Perhaps, but the half (IMO it's more like 80%) that you can are your bread and butter anyway. If you can't do those with gloves on, you probably won't be able to do them barehanded either.

"Just wondering what the experienced guys have found. Can you really do Wing Chun with gloves on?"

Yes, you can. Not everything, but most of it.

[Block]

Hi anerlich,


There's nothing inferior about good technical boxing. It's not a low art.
Yep, I do agree. Good boxers are fast and hit hard. I never want to have to fight a good boxer.


Wing Chun "disintegrating" into flailing about says nothing about boxing but everything about the quality of the practitioners concerned.
Fair enough. But what I see is opponents dancing around each other. In the WC I do we don't dance (wasted energy) we attack or wait for the attack then dissolve it, counter and finish.


It is hardly like getting hit with a pillow, as you are implying
Fair enough. But the reaction is more like; got hit in the head, shake it off and lets go again. Not a bare knuckles CRUNCH where are my teeth, is my jaw still intact. A hit to the body is even less effective. It would be ouch, lose a little wind, lets keep going rather than CRACK bones broken major internal bleeding, can I still breath.

This prevents some of the flow of combat that WC is famous for. Of course we can't practice like that but then this come down to the whole "should we spar or not" argument.


You're not telling me you spar full contact bare knuckle with shots to the head allowed are you?

No, I don't spar at all which is why I asked the experienced people about how effective they find it.


Perhaps, but the half (IMO it's more like 80%) that you can are your bread and butter anyway

I know I'm not as experienced as you but I find my bread and butter to be sticking and locking or controlling the opponent. For instance block, convert to lap sau while punching with the other hand then finish. It's the sticking and controlling techniques which I find most useful and can't imagine doing them with gloves on.


Yes, you can. Not everything, but most of it.

I guess it comes down to that. You can do some things and train them in sparing but not everything. I would think that this would inhibit your free frighting ability by training yourself to fight more like a boxer and losing some of the Wing Chun fighting technique but there doesn't appear to be a way around it???

[anerlich]

But the reaction is more like; got hit in the head, shake it off and lets go again. Not a bare knuckles CRUNCH where are my teeth, is my jaw still intact. A hit to the body is even less effective. It would be ouch, lose a little wind, lets keep going rather than CRACK bones broken major internal bleeding, can I still breath.

IMO you are talking down getting hit with a glove and majorly exaggerating getting hit without one. If you don't spar with contact, do your seniors? If it's like you say, they must spend most of their time in the emergency room getting patched up.

In fourteen years of training I've suffered one clean KO (out for about a minute), tw cracked ribs and countless black eyes. And body trauma. All with 12 oz gloves. If you hit someone full power with gloves on and you're competent, it doesn't pan out like you say.

A mouthguard will stop most loss of or damage to teeth. And won't affect your Wing Chun - will it?

If (and, with respect, that's a big if) you know someone that can cause the damage you are talking about with bare hands rather than just talking about it, gloves aren't going to change that as drastically as you say.

Gloves are mainly to prevent superficial injuries and damage to the hands. They don't stop pain or injury, the control of the sparmates does.

[shaolin kungfu]

I think your down playing the shock absorbing capability of gloves. Yes it hurts to get hit with gloves, but it hurts significantly more getting hit by a bare fist.

[Sui]

and kills with a bui-ji.

[Block]

If you don't spar with contact, do your seniors
I don't spar and I haven't seen the seniors do it. I've seen them do reactivity drills but in a controlled manner

If you hit someone full power with gloves on and you're competent, it doesn't pan out like you say.
So even when sparring with gloves on you have to curb your natural reflexes to strike hard. Does that impact on your fighting reflexes in a real situation. Does the saying "you fight like you train apply?"

A mouthguard will stop most loss of or damage to teeth. And won't affect your Wing Chun - will it?
Got to give that one to you. I've never been hit in the mouth with a mouth guard on.

If (and, with respect, that's a big if) you know someone that can cause the damage you are talking about with bare hands rather than just talking about it, gloves aren't going to change that as drastically as you say.
I must admit I am quite surprised by this statement. I thought after all the years of training, a punch should be doing this much damage. I haven't actually seen anyone get hit before but from the punching demonstrations that I have seen I can certainly believe that a punch will break ribs, teeth and cause terrible damage. You said that you've taken pretty bad damage from gloved hands so wouldn't it stand to reason that an ungloved hand will do much more damage?

Gloves are mainly to prevent superficial injuries and damage to the hands. They don't stop pain or injury, the control of the sparmates does.
OK

One other quick question then. When you spar are you doing the dancing/boxing thing or do you do the Wing Chun thing of quick decisive movements that I envisage most Wing Chun people aspire to do? If the later, do the gloves get in your way?

[anerlich]

One other quick question then. When you spar are you doing the dancing/boxing thing or do you do the Wing Chun thing of quick decisive movements that I envisage most Wing Chun people aspire to do? If the later, do the gloves get in your way?

You're dissing boxing again. BIG MISTAKE. Think your Sifu or Sigung can hit harder than Mike Tyson? WRONG.

It's seems you've never experienced being hit and nor have your seniors. You have no experience of what's being discussed in this thread ("aliveness") by your own admission, but seem to feel you know the answers.

Why don't you TRY it and find out for yourself?

[Block]

You're dissing boxing again. BIG MISTAKE
Are you reading what I write? I said that I'd never want to fight a good boxer. Where in that statement do you think that I have no respect for boxers. They are bl00dy good at what they do but it isn't Wing Chun!

You must be a dancer then, since you dodged my question. If so then you can't be doing Wing Chun. Id guess you must also box or kickbox as well and probably some bjj as well eh?

Fair enough. MMA has it's place.

And you can jump on this line: Yes, I've never been hit (thankfully) but going out and being hit doesn't answer my question as it relates to this thread does it?

[Spectre]

AndrewS,

I can understand your point about you and your partner being tougher opponents for each other.

I had mentioned in a previous post that with alive exercises, you can examine where the holes are and try to fix them. This is not really possible with the dead exercise since it is usually slowed down or exaggerated.

I think that we both agree that the dead and alive exercises are useful. The percentage of what is useful probably depends on whether or not you have the resources for the alive exercises.

Thank you for your thoughts!

Kevin

[KenWingJitsu]

All this being said- Thornton is dead on. Most people don't like to play live 'cos of either ego issues or fear of pain. That's part of the reason most people aren't very good.
hOPE YA'LL CAN SEE WHY I'M GLAD I HAVE PEOPLE LIKE ADNREWS TO PLAY WITH!

Not only doe he like to 'keep it real', he know how to articulate the points I try to get across, except he seems to do it in a more erudite manner than I sometimes, lol.

Anerlich I'm gonna get tired of saying how correct you are. I know I owe you an e-mail.

If you dont go live, you'll never know, you'll only think you know. That's it. And no, gloves do NOT hinder WC techniques. What it your primary goal when using wc? Well your goal is no different from the goal of a boxer.

I wonder if I should get Matt Thornton to make an appearance on this thread......why? because I can...

;)

[OdderMensch]

I'd like to start of by sayying I belive my school trains 'alive' as the OP, and his linked video suggest. If my Sifu saw us doing drills in the manner of the 'dead' examples :mad:.......well lets not get into that :eek:.

But there is one thing I'd like to adress, the issue of gloves. While there are gloves that do not seriously inhibit the use of WCK, there are also those that do. There has been some disscusion of this on the main forum. I don't personally see how it can be denied that wearing 16oz boxing gloves 'destroys' your ablity to generate short power, inhibates the use of palm strikes, and hinders the wrist movement needed for close in sticking and circleing.

This is not to say that a person cannot generate devasateing power while wearing boxing gloves, but that the types of power, or ging, that WCK specializes in just don't cut it.

Small, fingerless 'MMA' gloves are fine, boxing gloves are not.

[Ernie]

anerlich
I like how you think and how you approach training. the key word here is training not all out fighting ,were it seems that people get confused.
just because you were gloves or protective gear doesn't mean you get to go ape sh*t on your partner , quite the contrary it means you can simulate realistic energy and add a little depth to a shot . but more important is the skills you are working on distance ,timing ,eye sensitivity , line familiarization and lastly speed and power .
speed and power are better worked on other devices [ bag training ,dummy , plyo's for explosiveness and so on]
your self perfection training sensitivity ,hand routes , traps locks what ever you get that in chi sau, that's were the finesse and fine tuning are done . but closing the gap alive foot work controlling distance and getting caught in the fog of war . that can be better experienced with gear that allows you to play with pressure and work your balance under pressure and you commitment and adjustability. but most of all your timing , with out timing all your speed power and killer bil jee , chain punch super destruction tool can't land on it's mark.
also the emotional side , nervousness ,fear ,exhaustion , adrenaline dump , all that can be experienced safely and repeadly with gear on . they sky's the limit you can get creative multiple attacks , weapons , different arts and the list goes on .
it also teaches you how to feed energy and develop a good repoor with your partner were egos aren't controlling the situation because eventually you will be on the other end of stick.
if you focus on skill training rather then I can hit you more then you can hit me , it won't degrade your wing chun but help it progress , it's not a competition but a way to train .

[Ernie]

forgot to add AndrewS to my last post

[reneritchie]

I believe gloves are used in many sports not because they stop punches from hurting the opponent, but because they protect the fighter's hand from being broken, thus allowing him/her to punch harder and more often.

If we look at the early UFCs (which were bare-fisted) there were few knockouts, but *lots* of fighters who dropped out due to damaging their hands (many with broken hands).

Since the introduction of gloves, there have been vastly *more* knock outs, and far fewer broken hands.

(I don't spar with gloves, though I probably will in the future, I've severely sprained fingers, gotten black eyes, mashed my lips and otherwise had my mouth cut to shreds, blown out both ankles, had my ears punched nasty, etc. etc. Cost of doing business. X-Treme mountain biking would probably have messed me up more).

[Ernie]

your right on the money rene,
i have broken my leg doing freestyle bmx ,broke my back falling off a cliff down hill mountain biking and broke my colar bone recently snow boarding .
but just a few bloody lips and chipped teeth training martial arts
go figure

[anerlich]

Yes, I've never been hit (thankfully) but going out and being hit doesn't answer my question as it relates to this thread does it?

Actually, I think getting into a situation where you and a partner are duking it out with contact will answer ALL your questions. Direct experience beats the pants off listening to your sifu and bullsh1tting on a forum every time.

I do WC twice a week, BJJ 2/3 times, and box on Sundays. You seem to think that's worthy of derision, but since you've never hit anybody or ever been hit, or even SEEN your classmates strike one another, how the he11 would you know?

[Block]

Anerlich
I'm sorry if I've offended your boxing back ground but I don't see how dancing around like a boxer fits into Wing Chun. Sure it's all good for the sport of boxing but in WC we have very specific foot which is nothing like a boxers. If you're dancing and not using definite foot work then you simply are not doing WC, it's something else.

At least Ernie can give some constructive comments. The use of sparing as a "distance ,timing ,eye sensitivity" exercise makes more sense then duking it out just to see what it's like to be hit in the head.

[AndrewS]

Block,

I do escrima as a second art and box a little on occasion for fun (nothing serious, just playing every so often).

I'll extrapolate my experience with escrima (including a fair bit of sparring time) to boxing and make the following statement- it's chi sao for your eyes. Timing and range get honed by disciplines which constantly make you bridge and re-bridge. If you can make that carry over to your Wing Chun, you can close much more effectively, as reading and closing is a much neglected facet of Wing Chun.

Andrew

[Block]

Hi Andrew,

Fair call.

We do reactivity drills which are a form of free fighting but in short bursts. Here the student practices closing, connecting bridges and finishing their opponent. The opponent can be either partly co-operative or completely resisting. But it's not sparing as such.

Cheers

[KenWingJitsu]

If you're dancing and not using definite foot work then you simply are not doing WC, it's something else.
yeah...like 'fighting.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu

yeah...like 'fighting.
We study Wing Chun to learn to fight better, not the other way round. Block is right: footwork is essential to good Wing Chun.

[curtis]

PLEASE dont jump on this BAND WAGON, YET!

Although what Mr.Matt Thornton states is true, about aliveness, he too is making a mistake in his training, if he expects that the" practice makes perfect" approach works every time. And sparring in general really does not teach much, although I do agree, that aggression should be a necessary part in training. It in itself, is often it is its own worst enemy.
I am not saying that Mr. Thornton is wrong. Only for most people, depending on their skill/knowledge in what they are doing, his approach is not complete.
Adding aggression too early in your training can cause more problems than its worth. Fear, or uncertainty can cause you to make mistakes, such as becoming stiff, or hesitating, as well as it teaches the student to ingrain those mistakes.
Concept and principles that must be learned and understood are overlooked and never really learned by the student if they wish to accelerate their learning beyond where they are at in the training. I strongly believe that the old saying goes," if you wish to learn fast, you must first go slow."
By adding aliveness to your training can also cause one other problem ,in the lack of realism (the one thing that it was supposed to add to your training) in some cases such as in the video when they added sparring gear. (It becomes a game. And the game mentality is not real.) Sparring is not real either, because of the game mentality. Lethal force cannot be used,Counters can be performed that in real life could not be done.
I strongly believe that diversity in training is necessary. The aggression/ violence and uncertainty are all necessary in advance training. Although too much can be bad.
The name gung fu means personalized excellence. And with that goal in mind, it's the striving to achieve, that is important.
I strongly believe that goal is should not be made to be reached. The goal is something to strive for. The realism and diversity in your training I believe are necessary, but thay are only one element of many that must be looked at fully in order to achieve your goal.
BUT that is just my opinion. Sincerely yours C.A.G.

[anerlich]

footwork is essential to good Wing Chun

Good footwork is essential to all standup fighting disciplines, including boxing.

Some boxers "dance", Ali being the most notable, possibly Roy Jone Jr could be described this way as well. Others use the sort of "definite" footwork being alluded to here. I wouldn't call Mike Tyson, Jeff Fenech or Kostya Tszyu dancers.

Jack Dempsey's "Championship Fighting" describes entirely direct and utilitariam footwork which has strong similarities to that used in TWC. No dancing here.

As regards Matt Thornton, I think you have to apply his own approach to what he says, along the lines of "absorb what is useful ..." bla bla bla.

His own philosophy of training (www.straightblastgym.com, then Gorilla Press, then Philosopy) is highly articulate and thought provoking. He seems like a smart man and excellent teacher.

But I'm not sure I agree with all of it.

[namron]

I've gotta side with the anderlichs and kenw's on this one.

You've gotta put some time in with a moving striking opponent.

From what I've tried over the years my wing chun has been less effective when dealing sparing situations with a gloved opponent.

Sticking your guard out too far can be a bit like sticking your chin out ! Keeping a low guard when entering into striking or exchange range even worse.

The technique I find that you can retain 'somewhat' in the gloved situation are pak punch, high bon as cover and strike and at the outside range a butchered form of bon. All done with footwork otherwise your a sitting duck for a counter punch/strike.

Using gloves takes out a lot of wingchun techniques. Only the most direct techniques survive as effective.

As to the dancing comments, you can dance all you like outside the range of the opponent and boxers do this quite often for a rest or 'feelling out or probing the opponent'. Once your in exchange with little movement then my feet tend to be more grounded. This is probably the range that I can better pull off more wingchun in the clinch/break mode where I am no longer 'chasing' the opponent. You can also go into take down mode if thats your thing.

Agree with Rene's comment about gloves, I've already broken one hand from training without glove and going random and just did the other one 2 wks ago (you'd think I'd learn). Remember gloves protect your fingers as well as the knuckle area.

Off track a bit but has anyone trained with some of the hard core karate people in sparing mode. Trained with a group called Seibo Kan, it was good reactive training, wraps and body shots but no head shots with the hands (kicks OK though). These guys have one hell of a kick to them!

[IRONMONK]

hi,


Havent done anu full contact sparring in class yet.Me and my training partner are planning on doing some ..however i have a few concerns:

is it better to train with hear gear and body protection than without?
do u have to control your strikes-im worried about injuring my training partner and vice versa etc ?
how often should full contact sparring should be done?
any more advice will be appreciated!

regards,

faze.

[Ernie]

ask yourself ''what am I trying to attain'' are you just trying to get a work out and deal with some pressure and adrenaline dump . then by all means go ballistic . because your not going to get much more out of it then that ,
but if you want to develop skill then don't hardcore your sparring just hard core your conditioning and training approach .
if you go balls to the wall when you train with your partner then your not going to advance very much , might even have the reverse effect . pick a skill that you want to improve on and stick to that during the session . you might only pull it off a few times but , you will feel it during sudo realistic pressure and develop the '' when factor '' timing . we all know how to punch and kick but very few know when .
if you both square off with the same battle plan anything goes because we have protective gear on you will quickly realize.
a. you can still get hurt very easily
b. it will quickly become a ****ing match
c. you wont really learn anything as you are to busy trying hit the other guy and avoid getting hit '' this is a fight not training''
approach it as a opportunity to simulate real pressure , with a pressure valve intact . meaning you can build up the resistance progressively and the protective gear allows this .
I like to approach it from a one side feeds energy ''punches ,kicks ,take downs whatever ''and the other works on what ever skill he is trying to refine , I'll increase the pressure and variation of my attacks/resistance in steps , to allow the other person an opportunity to build up there confidence ,timing , relaxation , and sensitivity .
after that person feels good about it I'll freestyle the attack different lines and broken rhythm and speed , then we switch . after a few months weeks what ever then we can light spar open ended but now we have spent the time to refine our tools under pressure and we have tools we can work with in this freestyle open environment

[anerlich]

The most important pieces of equipment are mouthguard and groin cup.

You do want to have some control. Avoid Joint and groin kicks, and you don't have to make every strike an attempt to drive the other guy's nose into the back of his skull. You want to experience pressure, but if you get injured, you won't be able to do it regularly.

If you're not used to contact sparring, try this:

Start at about 20% of all out, go for say, a minute. Try to keep it technical. Then every thirty seconds, up it by 10%. If one of you stops being able to defend himself, or you start slipping into midbrain, just go back a couple of notches, then start ramping it up, but back off again once you go into survival mode.

It's much better to have a third party watching, both to watch for one of the participants losing control, to keep time (e.g. when to up it another 10%), and to offer encouragement. It's difficult sometimes to realise how much damage you are inflicting when you're adrenalin charged, and occasionally tempers fray even with the best of initial intentions.

If one of you is bigger or more skilful than the other, you obviously have to drop it down a little to make a useful experience for you both.

Make it a fun learning experience, not a fight to the death.

[kj]

Excellent advice and strategy, Andrew.
- kj


Originally posted by anerlich
The most important pieces of equipment are mouthguard and groin cup.

You do want to have some control. Avoid Joint and groin kicks, and you don't have to make every strike an attempt to drive the other guy's nose into the back of his skull. You want to experience pressure, but if you get injured, you won't be able to do it regularly.

If you're not used to contact sparring, try this:

Start at about 20% of all out, go for say, a minute. Try to keep it technical. Then every thirty seconds, up it by 10%. If one of you stops being able to defend himself, or you start slipping into midbrain, just go back a couple of notches, then start ramping it up, but back off again once you go into survival mode.

It's much better to have a third party watching, both to watch for one of the participants losing control, to keep time (e.g. when to up it another 10%), and to offer encouragement. It's difficult sometimes to realise how much damage you are inflicting when you're adrenalin charged, and occasionally tempers fray even with the best of initial intentions.

If one of you is bigger or more skilful than the other, you obviously have to drop it down a little to make a useful experience for you both.

Make it a fun learning experience, not a fight to the death.