The Real Dan Chi Sau Thread

[EnterTheWhip]

Since the other "Dan Chi Sau" thread is proving to be lineage specific and useless.... Let 's start over.

What is the significance of Dan Chi sau to your training? How many different ways do you train DCS? Do the techniques change, the energy, both? How and why?

[reneritchie]

Excellent idea EtW.

We don't have the dan chi sao excercise the way Yip Man lineage does, but we do have several single arm sticking drills.

The first involves taking individual motions from Siu Lien Tao and drilling them over and over (we do this in a San Sao context as well, but I'll stick to Chi Sao for the moment). So, for example, we'll train Fook -> Jum, Tan -> Bong, Huen -> Yum (Gum), Bong -> Sae, Ding -> Chan, etc. etc.

This is done to build precision in path (position throughout motion), and to cultivate feeling (contact reflex) based on simple stimulae.

There are also basic chi sao platforms like Na Dan Kiu ((Heavy) Sticking Single Bridge) which is a cross hand drill for dispersing heavy force, Kwai Bong, which goes back and forth on the same side-hand, etc. Then there are various running, leaking, etc. drills.

I would say they're like focus training that allow us to concentrate on one specific limb, one specific motion path at a time, and fine tune it.

[EnterTheWhip]

The Na Dan Kiu sounds interesting... What is the positioning of that crossing arm and can you describe the more precise range of than motion?

[reneritchie]

EtW,

Sure. You start out wrist to wrist, let's say right wrist on right wrist. One person will punch with very heavy force while the other will sink, turn, and lower their arm into Jum Sao. Then that person will "grind" their arm into a punch, and the other person will have to sink, turn, and jum. (Not sure if the grinding punch has an equivalent in other branches, it presses and opens as it punches and kind of sheers its way over the other person's limbs, it supposed to make their lives difficult in this context).

It sort of forces you to learn to keep body connection and root even when pressed, and to let your horse do the work (your arm/shoulder gets *very* tired *very* quickly if you try to muscle it). Also gives you the idea of when to turn, as you let the opponent's pressure dictate when and how much you have to turn.

[TjD]

in my school dan chi sau is simple (like SLT! :rolleyes: )

in the beginning it's practice slow with intent (like SLT). person 1: tan -> palm strike -> bong -> tan. person 2: fook -> jut -> punch -> fook.

the emphasis is to find the structure in the arm motions. how to occupy the centerline. when its tan vs fook, how do you hold your tan sau or fook sau so your arm is not stressed and doesn't become tired? same for palm vs jut, punch vs bong. how do you use the intent that SLT practices in the first section? repeated practice dan chi sau at this level shows how.


dan chi sau then progresses to add what we call the "changes." if someones jut comes too strong, are they over committed? huen and strike. they respond with bong sau. again, the foundation of that first level should be there in the huen and the bong. does someones bong come forward too strong, are they overcommitted? huen and strike, they respond with fook. at this level you realize when someone is overcommitted or when someone is drawing you away from the centerline. when this happens huen and strike. it begins to ingrain reflexes that are needed for free-hand dan chi sau/chi sau.


once these very vital reflexes are there, we move to freehand chi sau. in the beginning its still stationary but the hands can do whatever motions you like. it's a testing ground for then hands shown in SLT. you practice them in SLT but in application they may feel different than how you make the motions in the form. freehand dan chi sau makes your SLT form better, which in turn makes your dan chi sau better. after awhile some footwork is added as well.


even after years of chi sau, we still go back to the first part of dan chi sau - practicing it with those core ideas in mind. chi sau and practicing can get too intense, and we can loose focus on those original questions of how do we use the intent of SLT? how do we use tan/fook/bong so that they are effortless? these questions are at the core of WC imho.

[EnterTheWhip]

Are you facing each other square on?

[fa_jing]

We did a nice drill where once the regular patterns were accomplished easily, we would start moving around the room in unset patterns based on whatever energy our partner was giving us, so as to apply footwork along with the single-arm sticky training.

[reneritchie]

EtW, yes, at the beginning and during the middle of transition, you should both be square in YJKYM. Beginners will often start to drift sideways in an effort to offset the force being expressed into them, so its something you have to watch for.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Rene,


Sure. You start out wrist to wrist, let's say right wrist on right wrist. One person will punch with very heavy force while the other will sink, turn, and lower their arm into Jum Sao. Then that person will "grind" their arm into a punch, and the other person will have to sink, turn, and jum. (Not sure if the grinding punch has an equivalent in other branches, it presses and opens as it punches and kind of sheers its way over the other person's limbs, it supposed to make their lives difficult in this context).


My teacher emphasizes this "grinding" type of punch as well, but I don't believe he uses the term grinding. The receiving end feels the suffocating effect of the punch however. For us, normally, he uses terms like "Nay Sau Ngo Sao" (Your Hand My Hand), or "Kiu Loy Kiu Seung Gor" (When the Bridge Come, Cross It)" The punch almost rides the length of the forearm into your stomach. Not sure if this is close the the same type of thing you're talking about, but it sounds close to me. The idea, I believe, is to maintain superior position as you hit and not revive your opponent in doing so.

I'm sure you've heard this before, but your cross hand exercise sounds very much like Taiji push hands, which IMO, is a good thing. Was it a part of YKS's Wing Chun? Do you know how far back this exercise goes? Are there equivilents in Gu Lao or other Fut Shan branches? Just curious.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[reneritchie]

Zhuge Liang,


Not sure if this is close the the same type of thing you're talking about, but it sounds close to me.

Sounds similar. We're not interested in static position (ie. having the right position at point A and point B, but any old path in between). We want to have the right position throughout the path. Positional dominance, to steal a phrase. So we use Gok Lik. We continually adjust the angle and direction of force along a path to continually suffocate and/or open our opponent throughout the movement. This prevents the sort of tag team or slappy style of play, where you go from contact point to contact point, or if you do stick, you do nothing to continuously disrupt the opponent.


I'm sure you've heard this before, but it sounds very much like Taiji push hands,

It's different than Tui Sao, but we do have a variation that uses more horizontal, circling movement that looks very similar to Tui Sao without the other hand involving itself (and in WCK mechanics, of course).


Was it a part of YKS's Wing Chun?

Yes, all movements are directly from our Siu Lien Tao.


Do you know how far back this exercise goes?

At least as far back as my sijo. I've never heard it mentioned as any sort of innovation, (and my sigung was always very clear as to what he learned vs. what he developed).


Are there equivilents in Gu Lao or other Fut Shan branches? Just curious.

If Jim or Hendrik see this, perhaps they can comment. I know Jim has the core movements in his sets, but I don't know if they drill them in the same way.

[yuanfen]

Not contradicting others.
We pay considerable attention to the details of dan chi sao-
and there are several variations. We also do cross arm chi sao,
two arm chi sao with several different positions and lop sao-
standing, moving sitting and bridging from one kind of chi sao to another- it is all inter-related.
Dunderheads just start attcking without developing the skills.... accurate, timely position training of automatic relexes.
If they persist they deserve da bomb.

[AndrewP]

Yuanfen,

Cross arm chi sao?? That one I haven't heard of. How do you do it?? And 1-2 objectives for doing it.

Personally, whenever I cross arms (getting trapped) I either roll out of it while shifting or I smother the other person with a shoulder strike and stepping in.

Just my favorites.

AndrewP

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Yes. Koo Lo WC does have a fair number of single bridge sets. Mainly pulled right out of the core actions taught from SLT/DLT. Yet, we do have some that coordinate some of the other skills as well such as Lan Kiu, Lung Na, etc. These can all be done from cross wrist as RR descibes for his Na Dan Kiu. In one of our earlier sets we also work from the inside of the bridge openning the inside line with one hand sets. Siu Lin is the most common drill seen in demonstrations but they combine single and double hand skills.

Also, with the circling hands platform we roll singular before double.


Regards,