Will the real WC please stand up!

[marcelino31]

If you think your WC lineage is better than another WC lineage(s) please explain why you feel that way.

[tparkerkfo]

Becuase I am in it!

However funny that may seem, would any one willingly sign up for an inferior kung fu.

Tom
________
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[marcelino31]

Tom, LOL!

Can you provide some reasons, examples, training methodologies, etc, to explain why you prefer your version of WC over another. This provided the fact that you have experience in at least 2 or more lineages as to be able to provide comparison and feedback.

The point I am trying to make in this thread is that many people think their WC is better than everyone elses. eg TWC think their WC is better than other WC which they called modified. Same applies to other Lineages.

Please provide details like theory, biomechanics behind techniques, force application etc.. to make this into intelligent discussion and not just some school yard mumbo jumbo....

woof woof ;)

[t_niehoff]

marcelino31 wrote:

If you think your WC lineage is better than another WC lineage(s) please explain why you feel that way. M

Everyone needs to move beyond lineage -- lineage has absolutely nothing to do with one's individual skill or understanding. WCK is WCK. The different lineages are just different persons' (ancestors) attempts to organize the same material for the benefit of their students. If that organization helps you -- great. The only real significance I see to lineage is that it can help us to recognize if someone had access to the information that comprises WCK -- so that if someone claims they teach/practice WCK they should be able to provide a legitimate lineage. If they can't, then it should raise a red flag.

Terence

[reneritchie]

Yeah, but does your lineage have a moon roof and side impact door beams?????

[tparkerkfo]

OK, I'll play,

LOL. I don't think my lineage is anything special. Quite the contrary, I think it is ordinary. My teacher teaches simply what was taught to him as he understands it. It is all Yip Man wing chun and we hold to those principles that Yip Man taught Leung Sheung and Leung Sheung taught Ken. And down the line. Every one should have all this same stuff we do. I hear a lot of others saying the exact samething I have been taught. Unfortunatly something is lost in the teaching and the application.

The reason I like my particular teacher is the level and depth of knoweldge of the art. I don't know if he is special in that depth of knowledge, but I have met VERY few that had that much information. One of my first lessons was about a 20 minute discussion on the nuances of Wu Sau. How high it should be. Were the tension should be. The mental images. How to apply it. Why the hand is the particular shape. etc. This is true of every aspect of wing chun. I like learning from a teacher that really knows. That is why I am proud of my lineage.

One other thing. I feel we hold to the core principles of wing chun. The art was designed by a female and taught to a female, according to oral tradition. The art is a refined soft art, not a manly art that depends on phsycial speed and strength. We hold true to these principles were many others do not.

Hope that wasn't too much bravado 8 )

Tom
________
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[marcelino31]

Originally posted by t_niehoff


lineage has absolutely nothing to do with one's individual skill or understanding. WCK is WCK. The different lineages are just different persons' (ancestors) attempts to organize the same material for the benefit of their students. If that organization helps you -- great. The only real significance I see to lineage is that it can help us to recognize if someone had access to the information that comprises WCK -- so that if someone claims they teach/practice WCK they should be able to provide a legitimate lineage. If they can't, then it should raise a red flag.

Terence [/B]

Terence, I disagree with you on this. To use an example -- going to college. There are rankings for college, like the Gourman report, that assign a rank or a score to such things as quality of program of study, academic well roundedness, etc. There are some colleges that are definately better than others for your chosen discipline! I would rather goto an Ivy League college as opposed to some run of the mill college as I get a chance to learn from world renowned professionals in their respective fields.

Therefore who you learn your WC from is definately important.
And to bad that most wing chun is not taught like a college degree program but more like elementary school.

But this is not answering my question.

My question for those of you who wish to provide answers is do you think your lineage has more to offer than other lineage and why do you think so.

For example, I have trained SLT in two different lineages and I feel one lineage is more effective than the other. Similary CK is more effective in one lineage than the other. The same applies to fighting strategy one is better than the other.

[t_niehoff]

Then quality of a *teacher* in WCK isn't determined by his lineage -- it is determined by what he can do (his level of skill) and whether he can help his students develop that skill. How many folks from Yip Man lineage can't fight their way our of a paper bag? Yet there are some who are very good. The same is true of any "lineage." In the "old days" folks didn't go to Leung Jan or Fung Siu Ching because they "knew WCK" or because of "lineage" but because they could fight -- they could do it (the first prerequisite to being a good teacher). WCK is like a trade or a learned skill; if you want to learn silversmithing, you need to go to a silversmith. How good that silversmith is doesn't depend on who he learned from but what he individually can do (maybe he just got the basics or learned from several silversmiths or is just plain talented); and most importantly, he should be able to demonstrate his skill. If he can't do it, he's not going to be able to teach how to do it. But -- even if he can do it, that doesn't make him a good teacher. And let's not leave the student out of the equation. Lineage is a textbook. A teacher uses that text's organization of material to teach. The student refers to the text. TN

Terence

[Ernie]

marcelino31
I'll ask because all joking aside you will answer honestly ,what's the big deal with lineages there like religious cults that separate every one promising the one true way , and in the end it just makes everyone crazy. and the whole sifu thing , to me there just coaches some are better at one thing then another . like specialist you go to each one for a deeper understanding of that particular area . there are no more secrets and the whole close door disciple promotion sounds like a pyramid scam , marketing scheme.
if your teacher is great , and his teacher is great doesn't mean your going to be great . I take the whole question everything approach then test it and then evaluate it . if my '' sifu ever told me I don't need to test it because his sifu proved it and he proved it , I would get real skeptical . but that's just me . I do understand your need for good clear information but most of us are intelligent enough to see through the hype and if you test it and it doesn't fly , well what more need .
in this day and age were information is everywhere what the big deal with lineages . I'm not baiting you I'm honestly asking . as I never understood the blind devotion some people have.

[Sam]

In my opinion lineage should be a way of listing the progression of quality Masters who have transmitted the art. This can help in judgement of quality as opposed to quantity of the art. This does not mean that lineage arts are better or more effective than others. It just gives you a persective over a long time frame of how the art and it's descendents progressed. All in all hands should tell.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Ernie
marcelino31
I'll ask because all joking aside you will answer honestly ,what's the big deal with lineages there like religious cults that separate every one promising the one true way , and in the end it just makes everyone crazy. and the whole sifu thing , to me there just coaches some are better at one thing then another . like specialist you go to each one for a deeper understanding of that particular area . there are no more secrets and the whole close door disciple promotion sounds like a pyramid scam , marketing scheme.
if your teacher is great , and his teacher is great doesn't mean your going to be great . I take the whole question everything approach then test it and then evaluate it . if my '' sifu ever told me I don't need to test it because his sifu proved it and he proved it , I would get real skeptical . but that's just me . I do understand your need for good clear information but most of us are intelligent enough to see through the hype and if you test it and it doesn't fly , well what more need .
in this day and age were information is everywhere what the big deal with lineages . I'm not baiting you I'm honestly asking . as I never understood the blind devotion some people have.

I agree with what you say Ernie we should not blindly follow teaching without closely examining it for ourselves. But I still don't think all WC that is being taught is necessarily the "good stuff." Being a good fighter is also relative to you the person and if you have God given gifts then by all means use them.
Getting back to Yip Man, some claim that after training with Leung Bik that Yip easily defeated his seniors (under Cha wha suun) so how exactly did this happen? Im sure its because Yip might have learnt more theory or something more that others didn't learn and thus made his fighting approach superior.

Also I don't think the mental aspect of learning WC like a science is stressed enough. I have seen many people mindlessly doing forms and repeating movements thousands of times over and over again because that is how their sifu taught them. Others get the real meat of WC by being taught advanced stuff. This is what I'm talking about. They really get into the theory and dissect every WC movement from every angle to really really understand the system in painstaking detail. This scientific scholarly approach gives way to those who want to quickly learn fighting skills alone.
I chose to study WC because I was attracted to it as a science and an art and not just for its fighting aspect.

[anerlich]

Good post Ernie.

Nearly all the posturing and lineage bashing IMO comes down to one thing: brand differentiation. Coke or Pepsi.

As for the college ranking thing, that's good in principle, but it implies that an independent ranking system exists for WC. Hardly. Maybe results in MMA tournaments ... oop ...

BTW, not all TWC practitioners follow William Cheung's party line and trash other lineages. I respect all lineages, I have seen teachers of lineages other than TWC that I think are fantastic, and I have seen TWC schools that make me feel embarrassed.

I started where I did because I thought the teacher was right for what I was seeking. Not because his lineage could be traced back to Yip Man, Leung Bik, Shaolin, or anything else.

There is no necessary relationship between lineage and quality of instruction, be it good or bad.

WC is not complicated. It is not dogma. It is not something conceived in total which must be passed down the generations pure and unsullied like a set of stone tablets. The last 10-20 years of a school's history is FAR more important than the 200, 500, 1000 before that.

[cha kuen]

where's eminem

[yuanfen]

cha kuen asks:
where's eminem------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of different values and conflicting values involved in this thread. Regarding eminem note:

"You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the
best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss
hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the US of arrogance, Germany
doesn't want to go to war, and the 3 most powerful men in America are named
'Bush,' '****,' and 'Colon.' " ---Chris Rock

No politics- just Chris Rock or Chris Rocks.