The Ultimate MATRIX: RELOADED thred (Major Spoilers)

[jbmmaster]

I cant wait for that movie to come out, isn't it the coolest flick you have ever seen?

Even though some of the actors dont have much martial arts ability that movie has great action scenes and even more intresting a good storyline. I mean does anyone no that alot of the stuff in that movie relates to Gnosticism and Buddhism, just go to whatisthematrix.com and look under the matrix philosohophy and you will find all that and more, that is if your a die hard fan like me.:D but anyway cant wait for the matrix reloaded and revolution to come out.

[chen zhen]

I've seen clips from it. looks good! and there's also swordfighting in it.
Do you know when it comes out?

[jbmmaster]

May 2003 supposedly and the cool thing is that the next one after that one the matrix revolution will come out 4 months after reloaded which means you wont have to wait forever for the next matrix continuance. :) Im happy

[Chang Style Novice]

Matrix = Sominex.

But I know I'm in the minority on this one.

[Marshdrifter]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice Matrix = Sominex.
So you're saying you find it dull?

I don't think it's dull, but I didn't find it to be as great as
everyone seems to think it was. The first half was something
of a fun, yet unremarkable, cyberpunk plot. The second half
was, "ok now that we know what's going on, let's go beat
up some bad guys in an amazingly unfair fight." I enjoy it,
but it wasn't great. Keanu is obviously leaning on the wires
in some scenes and that spoils a lot of the kung fu enjoyment.
That, and it didn't have much replay value.

I'm more likely to see the matrix movies than a lot of other films
due to come out this year.

[Chang Style Novice]

Truthfully, I thought it was just okay. The yuen woping stuff was cool enough, but I don't get really excited about most special effects, and although the 'bullet time' stuff was pretty novel, I didn't find it very dramatic in the story. All the philisophical stuff just struck me as pretty silly, and considering they basically invited you to interpret the whole picture as a drug trip in Keanu's mind, that reading makes a lot more sense. Especially since Keanu Reeves does 'dazed stoner' a lot better than he does 'man of great and mysterious wisdom.'

I'll watch the sequels for the eye candy (which will doubtless be tremendous, since the budget has gone through the roof, and the Wachawskis definitely have a knack for it.)

But on the whole, "Bound" is a better movie.

[PHILBERT]

What I wonder is the bullet time effect. If memory serves me well, I think bullet time was used first in the movie Lost in Space when they entered light speed. It shows 1 or 2 of the members jumping into each other's arms and the camera zooms around them and freezes. I remember this because everyone in the theatre was like "WOAH COOL!" because they didn't understand why they froze (theory has it when you enter light speed, time slows down to such an extent that time around you travels very fast while you do not age. Hence why when they exited light speed they were in the future by like 15 years.)

And it was also used in the movie Wing Commander, same concept, they entered a hyper space jump point and time froze as the camera moved around. However I think this movie came out just after The Matrix. Lemme check

Edit:
Ok, according to this site (NOT IMDB rubthebuddahs), Wing Commander came out BEFORE The Matrix

http://www.movie-list.com/w/wingcommander.shtml
http://www.movie-list.com/m/matrix.shtml

But according to this article on MSNBC, they make it out as if The Matrix was the first to use bullet time (do Ctrl+F and type bullet)
http://www.msnbc.com/news/850165.asp?


Nothing from the movie has been swiped as often as “bullet time,” the dazzling FX trick in which the camera appears to **** 360 degrees around a central image. It was jammed into “Charlie’s Angels” and parodied in “Shrek” and “Scary Movie.” If you watched the Super Bowl last year, you saw a crude version of it on Fox, which used the technology (cleverly, for a change) to show big plays from numerous angles. At first, Silver says, the Wachowskis were tickled by the copycatting, but soon they began noticing fight scenes—like the one in “Charlie’s Angels”—that were shot exactly like theirs.

Um ok...but it was used before The Matrix, so I guess you can say they copied other movies. I'd write to MSNBC and tell them my argument but they wouldn't give a ****.

[TaoBoy]

I'm pretty sure the Wachowski Bros 'invented' bullet time. Take a look at the DVD special features.



Oh yeah - Bound was a great move too. It used some great bullet photography in one scene.

[PHILBERT]

So if they invented it, why was it used in Lost in Space 2 years before the release of The Matrix?

[cho]

I think I first saw bullet time in Gap commercials where people were dancing in khakis.

Matrix was pretty okay. when you watch a lot of kungfu movies, American action can look a bit dull. Matrix Reloaded had better be innovative to be good because everyone has been copying the first one.

Isn't there some wushu guy supposed to be in Reloaded? Jet Li and Michelle Yeoh turned it down, then I heard they wanted to get the bad guy from Bodyguard from Beijing in it.

[firepalm]

His name has changed a few times (Ngai Sing, Siu Lung, etc...), sometimes known as Cho Siu Lung. Not a wushu guy per se, he's actually a Taiwanese Opera guy (with some TKD training) that moved to Hong Kong to join Sammo Hung's stunt team back in the eighties. Worked in various HK films, Jet Li's 'Body Guard from Beijing', etc...

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by PHILBERT
So if they invented it, why was it used in Lost in Space 2 years before the release of The Matrix?


Hey, I'm only going by what was said in the docos.
Perhaps they invented a new method?
Egad, I dunno.

[Qi dup]

Think about it, "Bullet time." Why "Bullet" time? Because it slows down and you can see the bullets. where there any slow motion bullets in Lost in Space or Wing Comander?

Personaly, I though the Matrix was a great film. I can't wait to see the sequal.

[@PLUGO]

well for anyone who missed in durring the superbowl...the latest preview (http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rl_cmp/reloaded_trailer2_640.html)

[red5angel]

"Bullet Time" was created for the MAtrix, although I am not sure if the Wachowski bros get the credit or not. Before that, the gap commercials had their own brand of it, but it doesn't work like the bullet cam does.

[Braden]

The scene in Bound where the guy's blood splashes into the white paint is great. That movie had incredible direction.

Momento is another great Joe Pantoliano movie.

[TaoBoy]

Yeah, the blood and white paint scene in cinematic genius.

[doug maverick]

ladies and gentlemen if you caught the mtv matrix thingy, then you would know that jet li is in the matrix reloaded i know, i know i was shocked too, and a little ****ed cause it would've been a good shock to see him in it after everyone thought he wasn't.

[wall]

it's not jet, it's a guy who looks somewhat like him. He's the oracle's bodyguard, and it was the role Jet was going to be cast for but turned down. The guy is a wushu practitioner.

[StickyHands]

Yeah, it wasn't Jet, I think you were hallucinating, or may be the matrix has you, and you can't tell what reality is from a fragment of program. lol.

[shaolin kungfu]

In the first matrix, trinity tells neo to "follow the white rabbit", which is just one of the references to Alice in wonderland. But, if you remember Alice in wonderland, The rabbit leads alice deeper into the dream world, not out of it.

Also, morpheus is named after the greek god of dreams.

Coincidence, or are the directors setting up the plot for the third installment?

Edit: here's alittle more on morpheus from Ovid's "Metamorphoses",

"King Sleep was father of a thousand sons -
indeed a tribe - and of them all, the one
he chose was Morpheus, who had such skill
in miming any human form at will.
No other Dream can match his artistry
in counterfeiting men: their voice, their gait,
their face - their moods; and, too, he imitates
their dress precisely and the words they use
most frequently. But he mimes only men..."

[StickyHands]

So the city of Xion or whatever, and destructive reality could also be the dream?? lol. Great, a 2nd matrix, hmmm I wonder if this thing should continue in a cycle..... What's the real world then Obviously it cant be a world where humans too have almost unlimited powers like Neo. And I always pondered, in the concept of Matrix, where do people go after they die or shall I say "expire" and the ions in the battery dissipate What, it's a very anti-religion plot? lol.

Anyway, in order for you to notice that, Im guessing you read it off somewhere, or you worship Matrix to notice something explicit and and almost subliminal. Even geniuses have more important stuff to invest their mind on, hehe.

[shaolin kungfu]

I read the alice in wonderland bit off somewher. I got to thinkin' and came up with the Morpheus bit on my own. Thats just what happens when my mind drifts. didn't really take any time.

[PHILBERT]

*Super huge plot twist spoiler, highlight to read*






















Time Magazine did a report (yes TIME) on the Matrix Reloaded, including the plot to the ending. It ends with Neo meeting the Archetecture, who says he designed the Matrix, and that Neo is a false prophet and not The One. In fact, Neo is the SIXTH time The One was found. The SIXTH time the Matrix was made. The SIXTH time Zion rebelled against the machines, it is all just a game created by the mom of the Matrix, the Oracle.









































End Spoiler

[@PLUGO]

PHILBERT:
That spoiler you posted is almost how the movie plays out. However there are nuiances that need to be resolved in M3.

Keanu actually looks good busting out his Kungfu... Wonderfull camera work in relation to fight scenes... and a chinese weapon extravaganza!!!

Some scenes where filmed in Oakland (where I live). I've driven parts of those freeways.. . otherparts where the custom freeway they built for the film...

SPOILER:













Somebody dies!!! :eek:

[reneritchie]

Matrix 2 was a festering pile of cow turd. Success is the deathknell of many creative individuals as they forget the importance of an editor (see Lucas, George, Rice, Anne, Spielberg, Steve, etc.)

Sadly, Matrix 2 continued this trend with a bloated, convoluted, cobbled plot that raised a lot of interesting ideas that were never followed through on, and followed through on a lot of pedestrian ideas no one cared for. Dialog was wooden, repetive, and more parody than acting. Fight scenes suffered from obvious doubles (Neo looked visibly Asian in some scenes) and CGI use (like a video game character in others), and uninspiring choreography (nothing we haven't seen in a dozen other wire-fu movies).

There was much grumbling at the end by the audience.

What a waste.

[MasterKiller]

That's what people said about Empire Strikes Back, until they saw Return of the Jedi.

This is the 2nd act of a 3 act play. Only once all the pieces are put together can you judge the whole.

[PHILBERT]

And thats what they say about Attack of the Clones, when after seeing AotC, The Phantom Menace seemed 10 times cooler (except for Jar Jar and that whiney ******* Anakin.)

Hey, after I typed it, I remembered, Anakin is a *******! hahaha

[StickyHands]

To the Matrix-hater, dude, it's a movie, get over it. If you like being a critic, then go write columns, but I bet you'll find most "paid" critiques (sell outs) praise it anway. So dont like what u see? Who cares! It's a friggin movie, not a doctrine for the world's fate!

[@PLUGO]

The real bummer is dishing out 7-10 bucks (doubled if you've got a "date") plus munchies Money... And not having a good time...

has anyone else seen it yet?

[MAreader]

I saw the movie last night as I was invited out with some people after final exams. I thought the movie sucked on many levels, although the fight scenes really got boring for me. the wire stuff is done. I saw Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Overuse of CGI turns a movie into a Playstation 2 game. I think the plot of the series generaly sucks, and I'm really sick of comp sci. & engineering nerds trying to imitate kung fu when they know nothing of it. The kind of people who understand nothing of the subtleties between various styles, or even between different eastern cultures. You have japanese swords in these movies being used by kung fu exponents.

In watching the previews for the movie I see yet another martial arts movie coming out later this summer apparently called "kill bill". That movie looks like kung fu + Bring It On. It's a teenie movie or something. I'm sick of the fight scenes at arms length where everyone is playing paddy cake. No one is trying to end it. The average person goes to see this and then they think it represents martial arts in some kind of authentic way. Fighting isn't fencing.

Chinese martial arts are beautiful. There are many types(Emei, Shaolin, Wudang, Northwestern(chang chuan) etc.) but these movies just blend it all into one hoky exchange after another where people exchange lines in between strikes. It's silly and I think it just gives a false picture. And I wonder how interested most of these movie fans(or college nerd kung fu imitators) would be in the cultural and religious aspects of chinese martial arts. I wonder whether people who make these movies have any idea that they are denigrating the arts much of the time.

I love Jet Li. I love most of John Woo's movies. But I don't want every movie out there relying on kung fu to carry it. The Matrix indeed is hostile to religion, the movie itself has religious pretensions, and I don't want enlightenment(or shen dao) from the Wachowski brothers who made this movie. I'm not looking for that in a movie.

[MasterKiller]

and I'm really sick of comp sci. & engineering nerds trying to imitate kung fu when they know nothing of it. The kind of people who understand nothing of the subtleties between various styles, or even between different eastern cultures. You have japanese swords in these movies being used by kung fu exponents.
Yuen Woo Ping directed all the fight scenes. I think he knows a thing or two about the subtleties of styles and difference in culture. They are just trying to bring something new to the screen, for crying out loud. Don't be so sensitive.



In watching the previews for the movie I see yet another martial arts movie coming out later this summer apparently called "kill bill". That movie looks like kung fu + Bring It On. It's a teenie movie or something.
Kill Bill is Quentin Tarrantino's ode to the Shaw Brothers. It's not going to be a kiddie movie, by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, early reports are that this is the bloodiest Kung Fu flick ever made.


but these movies just blend it all into one hoky exchange after another where people exchange lines in between strikes. It's silly and I think it just gives a false picture.
It's a movie, not a history lesson. Movies tell a story by exaggerating real life to make the lesson more interesting.


The Matrix indeed is hostile to religion, the movie itself has religious pretensions, and I don't want enlightenment(or shen dao) from the Wachowski brothers who made this movie. I'm not looking for that in a movie.
I don't think the movie is hostile toward religion at all. Don't get mad just because not everyone believes what you do.

[KC Elbows]

I'm sorry, I love kung fu and much of the culture surrounding it, but by that token, the movie must then go into the scientific philosphies behind the culture that developed photography, the work ethic of Murnau, the history of european style, ad infinitum.

Everyone wants to see their style on film, except for the average movie goer. It is a visual medium.

And of course the movie would remind you of CTHD, it's the same fight director, it's like saying that you noticed stylistic resemblances between Apocolypse Now and 2001.

I'm totally unclear on how it is anti-religion.

[shaolin kungfu]

Yeah, i'm missing the anti-religion thing too.:confused:

[MasterKiller]

I think MA just got rubbed the wrong way because the movie wasn't written from his religion's perspective.:rolleyes:

[shaolin kungfu]

I think MA just got rubbed the wrong way because the movie wasn't written from his religion's perspective.

Maybe, but how would the matrix have turned out if jesus was running around healing people and walking on water?

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


Maybe, but how would the matrix have turned out if jesus was running around healing people and walking on water?

Jesus had no kung fu. He'd be a sitting duck for Agent Smith.

[@PLUGO]

Maybe the Anit-religion view comes from the "post-modern" take on those "spiritual" tid-bits peppered through-out the movie...

free-will vs. destiny

meeting "god"

accessing the "keys" behind the reality... etc...


Yeah it's silly to expect a tretis on Kungfu "culture" from a movie whose majore theme hinges on the debate between the authenticity and illusion of culture.

The only depiction of "culture" in that movie where the scenes in Zion, Which BTW looks like a hella fun place to be as distopian futures go...

The whole nature of the matrix includes a lack of any real culture, just like the debate on the flavor of chicken. SO these charactors are by their nature "downloading" whatever they need as they need it, with no context.

Why did morpheus grab a Katana? Because it was closest... as he's the "master" he's certainly not going to be hampered by illusionary distinctions between "Chinese & Japanese" arts.... Hell in the martix who's to say there is even a "chinese" or "japanese." It's just the MATRIX...
THAT'S THE POINT OF THE FILM
It's ONLY with-in the Matrix and outside the Matrix...

how silly to impose one's own assumptions onto the film...

on another level... if you're a Kungfu practicioner and are in a desperate fight where you come accross a set of Tonfa... Are you NOT going to use them because they're Okinawian????

If you want to see a Kungfu Movie steeped in the culture & history of China see HERO (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/dvd40028.html) . Of course there's Wire work in there as well...

I've seen only one preview of Kill Bill (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=188) and I'm totally Jazzed to check it out... why?
[list=1]

Tarantino generally cranks out entertaining flick
Uma Therman is HOT HOT HOT
It'll be a much better "P!SS TAKE" than Charlie's Angels
Gordon Leu & What's his face "STREETFIGHTER" will be in it
[/list=1]

So... if you don't want to see Kungfu fiction... pick up an instructional video (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/videos1.html)...however, be warned; You won't find many beautiful women dressed in PVC there... :p

[KC Elbows]

As for the japanese sword thing, the chinese used such swords as well.

In all other ways, what DS said.

Although, DS, couldn't one still take the stance that meeting the architect, the keymaker, and all that was just meeting programs, not meeting deities and such? Those things don't seem to exclude an interpretation of the story that includes religion in a conventional sense, because they are meaningless outside of the matrix, if there is an outside of the matrix. Even the architect could become an exiled program, and thus a demon by the matrix definition, not a fallen god.

[@PLUGO]

Although, DS, couldn't one still take the stance that meeting the architect, the keymaker, and all that was just meeting programs, not meeting deities and such? Those things don't seem to exclude an interpretation of the story that includes religion in a conventional sense, because they are meaningless outside of the matrix, if there is an outside of the matrix. Even the architect could become an exiled program, and thus a demon by the matrix definition, not a fallen god.

Now this sort of brings up a sort of Tar baby situation eh?

Yeah "programs" like the architect, the keymaker etc are just program yet can they also be godforms? dieties or Avatars?
Sort of goes into a what is "god" debate. It's understood that renegade programs are "demons" after a fashion... Could the Oracle also be such a renegade program?
Does that imply that such programs that are not renegade are fullfilling an essential role with-in the function of the Matrix/universe? Like a god of rain?
The word Seraph is a type of Angel and is the name of the Oracle's bodyguard. Along those lines that glimpse of his particular code was significant, he is beyond the fabric of that reality. Make me wonder what the Oracle's code looks like... however, by her nature it's easy to assume it looks like the rest of the world.

Now the Architect is obviously a creator-father-figure... Along those line certainly he could be considered a god... and sure if an upgrade makes him obsolete he can become a demon... very much like how christianity turns older god into either Saints (which are still useful in effect control with-in the new cosmology) or Demons (gods like PAN (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/pan.html) who's horns & hooves have been appropiated for depiction as a devil- interestingly the aspect for which Pan was worshiped reflect cultural values frowned upon by the christian church conrol system).
meanwhile Neo himself is obviously flirting with devinity. His choice seems to also be between:

following the way of the previous "ones" (that of the Martyr)
Or pioneering a "NEW" way (Buddha?)

Does the Architect's inability to effect the world outside the Matrix disqualify him for "godhood?"

Firstly, it's unknown if the Architect cannot effect the outside world. There IS an intelligence behind those Sentinal/Squids...
Also if I may goe all Jo Cambell for a moment. Might the Arcitect be a Mask for the great (mechanical) Godhead behind both the Matrix & the Machines?

Consider also does the god-of-the-mind or the intellectual conception of "god" have power over the body? With-in the Body (outside the matrix) there is a whole other system at work much older than that of the mind. That system has it's own Pantheon (named by the mind as Heart, lungs, kidneys, etc...) autonomous from the pantheon of the mind/matrix.
Yet it is unknowable if one can exist with-out the other... very much like the humans' & machine relationship. Explored wonderfully in the conversation between Neo & the Pro-council in the engine level.


Did that make ANY sence?

[WinterPalm]

THe first Matrix movie had a unique novelity. It was something new and interesting with a great soundtrack, a hot herione, a pathetic skinny white guy loser nerd saving the world and hilarious poorly done, yet somewhat great kung fu. The second one is just cashing in on the first and skips the whole concept of an ending, opting instead for a to be concluded cop out like some bloody sitcom televisison show. The movie had a weak story, horrible acting and too much nonsense. Half of it, I spent wanting them to blow **** up and kill people but they wasted it. Another thing is that the original had something different in the way it was filmed and edited and this was just thrown together without any thought of serious consideration. It was horrible.

Oh yeah, my bike was stolen while i was watching the **** thing and I will kill them when I find them.
Props to those that don't waste their money on this garbage.

HOwever, the gaspar noe film, Irreversible is going to be playing in my city and I look forward to seeing it.

[shaolin kungfu]

The second movie may seem incomplete because it's really only half a movie. It was filmed as one movie, but had to be split in two to conform to time. There was no "cop out". Bad planning maybe, but no cop out.

I'm guessing that if you don't like metaphysics, mythology, theology and that sort of stuff, your not going to like it. I'm looking forward to seeing it as soon as possible.

[cho]

Originally posted by WinterPalm
The second one is just cashing in on the first
I think that was the whole point of the trilogy. The first movie could stand by itself. if it didn't sell, they wouldn't make part 2 or 3.
sorry about your bike.

from people I know that watch only Hollywood movies, they said it was awesome, others said it was a special-effects masturbation. I'm waiting when it comes to discount cinema.

[StickyHands]

I have to agree, first one was lot better. At least it had "realism" instead of "Matrixism" and "conandrum." I found myslef yawning plenty of time which were absent during the first movie. May be because they didnt introduce any thing rarely appealing or new to it like the first one, i.e. slow motion, bullet trails. However, the fighting scenes were good, good kung fu, and I liked it when he was flying like hell and buildings were crashing behind him because of the speed. Some of the run-on and endless, pointless jargons was redudnant.

And umm, the sword Morpheus used was what looked like a katana. A samurai sword, I doubt the chinese used the same swords at all. Their swords are broader and much different. Show me otherwise! The Japanese are distinct for it! And I dont think the Matrix cared if kung fu was chinese. Kung fu is kung fu, they chose it cause it deals with fighting.

[dwid]

Regarding perceived incontinuities in martial arts related stuff.... really, who cares. It's a movie, and nothing is inconsistent given the rules they've set up that govern the world in which the movie takes place.

Someone complained earlier in the thread that they are sick of computer geeks trying to ape kung fu without understanding its nuances. I for one am sick of MA geeks criticizing media for the minutae that nobody else cares about. It's a sci fi/ action movie, not an instructional video.

Anyway, I thought the story was pretty cool in the sequel.

I've concluded that Zion is just another part of the matrix, which sets us up for a very interesting final installment. If Neo (and the others living in Zion) never left the matrix and the matrix has been around for hundreds of years, then everything we saw in the first film about what the "real" world looks like is suddenly in question. For all we know, there is no place to escape to outside the matrix. The entire earth could be uninhabitable.

[KC Elbows]

I'm serious, there's a chinese sword, not a broad sword, that is functionally the same as a samarai sword. I can't remember what it's called, but it exists, and there are whole forms around this weapon. So, a kung fu guy could pick up a katana and perform chinese kung fu.

Judging the story is pretty much dependent on the last movie. I didn't like the Locke subplot, but in the overall story, it could be acceptable. Since the story curve spans movie 2 and 3, the climax in movie 2 won't seem as big, because it's not meant as the final climax.

[shaolin kungfu]

Is everyone forgetting that within the matrix they know more than kungfu? Why couldn't morpheus just download a katana program into his brain?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
In the first matrix, trinity tells neo to "follow the white rabbit", which is just one of the references to Alice in wonderland. But, if you remember Alice in wonderland, The rabbit leads alice deeper into the dream world, not out of it.

Also, morpheus is named after the greek god of dreams.

Coincidence, or are the directors setting up the plot for the third installment?

Edit: here's alittle more on morpheus from Ovid's "Metamorphoses",

"King Sleep was father of a thousand sons -
indeed a tribe - and of them all, the one
he chose was Morpheus, who had such skill
in miming any human form at will.
No other Dream can match his artistry
in counterfeiting men: their voice, their gait,
their face - their moods; and, too, he imitates
their dress precisely and the words they use
most frequently. But he mimes only men..."

That's what they want you to think - there are several allusions that state that zion may not be an actual reality - like that fact that neo was able to use his powers there to stop the sentinel...


BUT, it's also stated that the machines KNEW that neo would be the one - which would make it probable that there is a program in him that gives him those powers - maybe those powers unlock the full potential of his brain, which is why he could do that in the real world...

I think this is all a set up - biblical references, the alice in wonderland thing... in revolutions, they are gonna completely change everything just to blow everyone's theories out of the water.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by StickyHands
I have to agree, first one was lot better. At least it had "realism" instead of "Matrixism" and "conandrum." I found myslef yawning plenty of time which were absent during the first movie. May be because they didnt introduce any thing rarely appealing or new to it like the first one, i.e. slow motion, bullet trails. However, the fighting scenes were good, good kung fu, and I liked it when he was flying like hell and buildings were crashing behind him because of the speed. Some of the run-on and endless, pointless jargons was redudnant.



there was supposed to be more matrixism - the first was an intro to the matrix, in the second one, you are in it. you know how the matrix works, so the matrixism is no shock to you. If all that crap was in the first one, everyone would talk about how unreal it was - now that we understand why such unrealism is possible, they can get away with using more of it. We're just being taken deeper into the rabbit hole...

[dwid]

BUT, it's also stated that the machines KNEW that neo would be the one - which would make it probable that there is a program in him that gives him those powers - maybe those powers unlock the full potential of his brain, which is why he could do that in the real world...

I understand what you're getting at here, but why on earth/how on earth would the machines give neo powers that extend beyond the matrix? Neo is a means to an end for them. By design, he exists to deal with some noise in the program. It just isn't logical for the machines to empower neo in a way that would enable him to destroy them.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dwid
Regarding perceived incontinuities in martial arts related stuff.... really, who cares. It's a movie, and nothing is inconsistent given the rules they've set up that govern the world in which the movie takes place.

Someone complained earlier in the thread that they are sick of computer geeks trying to ape kung fu without understanding its nuances. I for one am sick of MA geeks criticizing media for the minutae that nobody else cares about. It's a sci fi/ action movie, not an instructional video.

Anyway, I thought the story was pretty cool in the sequel.

I've concluded that Zion is just another part of the matrix, which sets us up for a very interesting final installment. If Neo (and the others living in Zion) never left the matrix and the matrix has been around for hundreds of years, then everything we saw in the first film about what the "real" world looks like is suddenly in question. For all we know, there is no place to escape to outside the matrix. The entire earth could be uninhabitable.


I played with that theory too... people who accept the matrix stay there. Those who don't are given the alternate reality of Zion... it could be the machines' way of keeping human's happy

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
I'm serious, there's a chinese sword, not a broad sword, that is functionally the same as a samarai sword. I can't remember what it's called, but it exists, and there are whole forms around this weapon. So, a kung fu guy could pick up a katana and perform chinese kung fu.

Judging the story is pretty much dependent on the last movie. I didn't like the Locke subplot, but in the overall story, it could be acceptable. Since the story curve spans movie 2 and 3, the climax in movie 2 won't seem as big, because it's not meant as the final climax.

I've seen that sword too.

[dwid]

I played with that theory too... people who accept the matrix stay there. Those who don't are given the alternate reality of Zion... it could be the machines' way of keeping human's happy

I think that's exactly what it is. Alternately, as the architect seems to put it, it is a way of giving people choice, but choice is limited by the system that creates it. So it is really the illusion of choice. As the french dude says, choice is an illusion shared by those who have power with those who do not...

On that note, I think the french dude is an earlier neo...

Anyway, any movie that leaves you theorizing to the degree that this one does can't be all that bad.:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MAreader

I love Jet Li. I love most of John Woo's movies. But I don't want every movie out there relying on kung fu to carry it. The Matrix indeed is hostile to religion, the movie itself has religious pretensions, and I don't want enlightenment(or shen dao) from the Wachowski brothers who made this movie. I'm not looking for that in a movie.

it's not hostile toward religion, it's actually the opposite.

the concept of gods
christian references
scientology influence

where's this hostility?

[SevenStar]

for the computer nerds, did you note that trinity used an nmap exploit to kill the power grid?

[SevenStar]

irony:

in the first one, smith likened humans to a virus. Now, he is replicating himself in what is possible an attempt to overtake the matrix... he has become a worm

[cho]

it's also weird that the 'computer code' in the matrix titles has more Japanese kana than numbers. go figure.

and the Chinese sword that looks like a katana everyone's crazy about is 'Chopping Horse Saber' (Zhan Ma Dao) or the 'Cave Saber' (Wo Dao). The Zhan Ma Dao was a precursor to katana and imported to Japan in the Song Dynasty. This is from "Ancient Chinese Weapons" by Dr. Jwing-Ming Yang. But let's face it, all the average movie goers can't tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese anyway.

[SevenStar]

msn has a wallpaper of morpheus (with katana) vs. the twins that's cool

[StickyHands]

katanas are cooler. hmm that would figure why morpheus was only able to bus the gas tank. if it was a real good katana, hehe, the car would have been sliced and diced.

[kenso]

Originally posted by KC Elbows
I'm serious, there's a chinese sword, not a broad sword, that is functionally the same as a samarai sword. I can't remember what it's called, but it exists, and there are whole forms around this weapon. So, a kung fu guy could pick up a katana and perform chinese kung fu.

Judging the story is pretty much dependent on the last movie. I didn't like the Locke subplot, but in the overall story, it could be acceptable. Since the story curve spans movie 2 and 3, the climax in movie 2 won't seem as big, because it's not meant as the final climax.
Miao Dao I believe.

[StickyHands]

This Matrix II plot was convoluted needlessly, with more fighting scenes no doubt, but no cinemagraphy revelation was introduced like the first one. So as in when you introduce something phenomenal, one expects you to do the same on the next one and not simply give up. It was cool, but even during the fight scenes and plot unfolds to the deep into the "Rabbit hole" of Matrix, I found myself yawning bunch of times. In the begining, they should have really pace themselves and cut out things that were extraneous.

[@PLUGO]

funny... I didn't think the plot was convoluted at all...

a Solid opening sequence with Trinity again (echoing the 1st flick) with the shot twist of her being shot & it being a dream. Then we're introduced to other... er, Zionists and lead into Neo's 1st battle. THis bring s us to ZION itself, of course thay had to show it & it was a nce touch to show the reaction to Neo's pressence (though they could have explored it a bit more deeply). This then leads to Party & Politics and a return to the Matrix where Sh!t gets crazy!!!

The soundtrack was a bit weak though there were some gems. I thought the greatest revelation was showing the code for someone like seraph, revealing that the MATRIX is more complex than we originally believed. Nothing was going to match the "what the F****!!!" quality of the first revelation. Besides if they tried that again we would all be complaining that the movie wasn't offering anything "new"

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dwid


I think that's exactly what it is. Alternately, as the architect seems to put it, it is a way of giving people choice, but choice is limited by the system that creates it. So it is really the illusion of choice. As the french dude says, choice is an illusion shared by those who have power with those who do not...

On that note, I think the french dude is an earlier neo...

Anyway, any movie that leaves you theorizing to the degree that this one does can't be all that bad.:D

great minds think alike... I thought the french dude was an earlier neo too. Because of what he said, and also because the woman said he used to be just like neo. The thing I don't get though, is that if the matrix was destroyed, whyen it was rebuilt, why did he and the woman retain memory of what he used to be? seems like they woulda forgot.

[dwid]

The thing I don't get though, is that if the matrix was destroyed, whyen it was rebuilt, why did he and the woman retain memory of what he used to be? seems like they woulda forgot.

She might not remember exactly. She just knows he used to be a lot like Neo. So, the clue is there for us to perceive, but she doesn't necessarily know the full implications of what she's saying.

Him, on the other hand, there's no reason to assume that he wouldn't retain his memory. He may be like the programs that were supposed to be deleted and chose to hide out within the system.

Another piece of evidence to support him being an earlier neo, remember the oracle says of him "He wants what all men with power want: more power." It's strange she would refer to him as a man when she uses the word program for all the other matrix entities.

[MasterKiller]

The thing I don't get though, is that if the matrix was destroyed, whyen it was rebuilt, why did he and the woman retain memory of what he used to be?

Who ever said the Matrix gets destroyed? Zion gets destroyed and rebuilt over and over, but I don't recall anything about the Matrix itself being destroyed, only that THE ONE returned code to the Matrix which helped it perpetuate itself.

[SevenStar]

The french guy also said that he outlasted all of the previous Ones and would also outlast Neo.

[@PLUGO]

The only implication of the Matrix being "distroyed" was Agent Smiths coments on how the first "Paradice" matrix was rejected & they lost thousands of humans in the system crash... or something like that...

But yeah, it's easy to see how the matrix could have been er, ....reloaded over & over while some of the more tenatious programs would arrange to survive the transition.

[StickyHands]

Originally posted by Design Sifu
funny... I didn't think the plot was convoluted at all...

a Solid opening sequence with Trinity again (echoing the 1st flick) with the shot twist of her being shot & it being a dream. Then we're introduced to other... er, Zionists and lead into Neo's 1st battle. THis bring s us to ZION itself, of course thay had to show it & it was a nce touch to show the reaction to Neo's pressence (though they could have explored it a bit more deeply). This then leads to Party & Politics and a return to the Matrix where Sh!t gets crazy!!!

The soundtrack was a bit weak though there were some gems. I thought the greatest revelation was showing the code for someone like seraph, revealing that the MATRIX is more complex than we originally believed. Nothing was going to match the "what the F****!!!" quality of the first revelation. Besides if they tried that again we would all be complaining that the movie wasn't offering anything "new"


That's what I said, in Matrix II, it WASN"T offering anything to new. And if you actually follow the junk being said by morpheus here and there as well as the architect, and then of course the oracle, that rabbit hole does seem like WTF!?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller


Who ever said the Matrix gets destroyed? Zion gets destroyed and rebuilt over and over, but I don't recall anything about the Matrix itself being destroyed, only that THE ONE returned code to the Matrix which helped it perpetuate itself.

yeah, you're right about that.

[SevenStar]

this is a pretty good read:

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

[@PLUGO]

In no particular order:

The revalation that there's been more than one MATRIX.

The "place" the ONE has in it.

The introduction of Sentient Programs beyond AGENTS (the first implied there was only sleeping people & the occasional Agent)

The depiction of SERAPH's code.

Matrix Ghosts

The discourse on Man/Machine Interdependance while in ZION.

Human's in "MECH" suits!!!

The implication of Previous NEO's

The implication of Precognition for Neo.

The implication that the world outside of the MATRIX is just another level of the MATRIX.

Better flight scenes than every SUPERMAN movie put together

not sure what you mean by:

if you actually follow the junk being said by morpheus here and there as well as the architect, and then of course the oracle, that rabbit hole does seem like WTF!?

I thought the WTF quality was cool, as alot of what was being said by the charactors mentioned served to deconstruct the Binary simplicity of Humans GOOD/Machines BAD presented in the first film.

Oh & Read this (http://metaphilm.com/philm.php?id=100_0_2_0_M)

[@PLUGO]

Did anyone else catch NEO & the ORACLE poping red pills like candy durring their chat!!! ;)

[SevenStar]

I caught it.

When Neo was talking to the architect, how many Neos were there on the screens in the background? Were there 6?

Here's another revelation:

Neo being able to use power in Zion and Smith entering the "real" world

[MasterKiller]

The revalation that there's been more than one MATRIX

Smith tells Neo about the original Matrix in the first movie when he compares humans to a virus.

When does the idea of more Matrices get introduced in Reloaded?

[KC Elbows]

I'm with Masterkiller. I didn't think they introduced it again.

Wait, was there an allusion made to a matrix after the ideal one, more a nightmare one? Geez, it could be from the movie, or just the drugs talking again.

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't know where this came from, and I'm not sure I want to.


NEILL CUMPSTON IS THE FIRST PERSON ON THE PLANET TO REVIEW MATRIX RELOADED!! HOLD ONTO YOUR SACK!!

MATRIX: KINGDOM OF ASS-KICKING

Jim-Jammity Jesus Krispy Kreme Christ on a twat-rocket, this movie blew me apart and put me back together only after I'd got put back I felt like I had thirteen ****s and they'd all gotten blown by a surfer chick with 26 heads (2 mouths on each ****). I will see it ten times and if I see Star Wars George or that gay Batman director butt-hole any time during the ten screenings here comes Mr. Punch.

This is the sequel to the MATRIX Movie that came out four years ago and after seeing it I can say I could have waited another four years it is that ****ing good. This movie is a pillowcase with soda cans inside that beats the living mule-**** out of you but you're all like, "Bring it on honky tonk" because the beating feels like summer and Halloween and Cheetos at the same time. This movie is Mad Max's shotgun-gun from ROAD WARRIOR, only it shoots ass-kicking only at jocks. This movie is tits!

WARNING: THIS PARAGRAPH IS ABOUT THE PLOT AND IT'S BORING AND THERE'S NO ASS-KICKING IN IT BUT I USE THE WORD "****" THREE TIMES TO HELP GET THROUGH IT

I still don't get the plot of the first one, and this one's all talking about "choices" (over and over again to where you think you're watching that ****ing Chicktime network) and "prophecies" and especially words like "anomaly" and "exile" (and who the **** even knows what those words mean?) and there's this long speech at the end that I also didn't get.

Also, you find out all this deep stuff, like about The Cookie Lady from the first movie and they introduce all these other characters like a Key Guy and a Frenchie Dude and another Frenchie but guess what it's okay 'cuz the other Frenchie's a chick and she's got cleavage you could hide a rump roast in and also this ex-girlfriend of Murphus and there's this new guy on the ship flying it around, I think he's from OZ (don't worry, no butt rape). And Neo and Memento Babe are all PDA every second, and they also "do it" and one time I thought I saw Memento Babe's nip but it was one of those metal ring things that everyone's got on 'em so no jacking off when the DVD comes out.

NOW ALL ASS-KICKING UNTIL THE END

So that's the plot but here's the thing: you could wear headphones and listen to Dio during this whole movie and you wouldn't miss anything, there's so much ass-kicking going on. That Smith Dude is back, only now he can make more Smith Dudes and do they each know how to kick ass? Like a Heroclix collector knows how to not get *****. Plus he's got this other ability that's really ****ing scary and I think it might have something to do with the next movie.

ASS-KICKING #1: Neo fights those Blues Brothers-looking dudes and it's pretty ****ing cool. But it's just a teaser, like when they have pictures of the food at Jack in the Box, and the tacos look all good in the picture, but then you get some and they look like they got pooped out of a pig. But you eat 'em because there's fries coming. In this movie there's ALWAYS fries coming.

HEADS UP: There's a lot of boring stuff between Ass-Kicking 1 and 2. There's a sermon by the dude who was in OMEGA MAN, and this underground dance thing that looks like if Pottery Barn had a rave on the Planet of the Gay Apes - but the rave thing is where Neo and Memento Babe "do it". I am bringing my headphones when I see this again on the 15th.

ASS-KICKING #2: Neo and a Kung Fu Phooey go at it in a picnic restaurant. They kick over a big thing of chopsticks, which is kind of cool, and Kung Fu Phooey wears these cool little sunglasses, but that's it. 5. And then Neo and Cookie Lady talk. Then chiggity-check your rectum 'cuz here comes:

ASS-KICKING #2: This fight on a playground where like a hundred Smith Dudes are whomping on Neo like a fat girl eating Fiddle Faddle - it's that intense. Holy ****. The thing goes on for like five minutes and just when you're thinking, "**** you Star Wars George" it goes on for another five minutes and then Neo flies away like that Greatest American Hero dude.

ASS-KICKING #3: Neo, Murphus and Memento Babe go to a French restaurant in the Matrix and there's this French **** and you're thinking, "**** you for not supporting us against Egypt", and then Neo goes whomp-ass happy on the dude's cohorts while Murphus and Trinity free this Key Dude and fight these Edgar Winter guys with dreadlocks who can turn into ghosts.

HERE'S WHERE I WISH THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE ONLY HAD THE WORDS "HOLY" "****ING" AND "****"

ASS-KICKING #4 - 28: That's right, this next scene feels like 24 ass-kickings. Seriously, the rest of the summer is going to suck busboy **** for ketchup packets compared to this scene. HOLY Murphus and Memento Babe have to escape on a huge freeway (which is a no-no in the Matrix; "It's suicide!" says Memento Babe, or something like that I can't remember for sure) while the Ghost Guys chase them, plus the Smiths, who keep taking over the drivers on the freeway and they're shooting and everything's blowing up for miles and ****ING Memento Babe has to go against the traffic on a ****ing motorcycle and they keep trying to smash her and Murphus takes out the Ghost Guys in this totally cool way and the ****ing samurai sword and the head-on crash and !!!****!!! the ****ing Blues Brothers guys and razors and swordfight on top of a truck and Memento Babe flying through the air and out of nowhere Neo and I am out!!of!!cum!! 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 And there's a whole other ass-kicking after this, which I can barely remember because, seriously, that ****ing chase scene. It's now #2 on my list of all-time chases, ahead of ARK RAIDERS, where Blade Runner gets dragged behind the Nazi truck (#5), and then DYING IN LOS ANGELES, where CSI is driving the car against the traffic (#4) and then TAXI RONIN, where Taxi Driver guy goes the wrong way down that French tunnel, and also because they keep running over French people (#3), and now MATRIX, right behind BANDIT AND THE FAT GAY GUY 2, where all the police cars and all the trucks play chicken out in the desert (#1).

Neo needs to fight Blade and that fat bald guy from STIR CRAZY. Then Murphus and Neo and Memento Babe try to raid some sort of central something, like the CPU in TRON, something like that. Smith Dude re-appears, Neo has a talk with a new character, someone dies and someone's reborn. Then something gets destroyed (good), something else gets destroyed (bad), and Neo discovers a new power. Then something BIG gets destroyed (really really bad), and someone lives who shouldn't.

MY HINT: Stay through the credits and you get to see a trailer for MATRIX: YOU WILL ****, the third movie. That's it. Best movie of the year. I still want to see HULK-MAN and the werewolf thing and I think there's something where you get to see a hot Asian's boobs, but they're not going to get close to this one. Here's my blurb if they're putting blurbs in ads: "MATRIX: KINGDOM OF ASS-KICKING is like if all of Anthrax's albums formed into a hot chick who had to **** you ten times a day or she gets pee-cancer."

[KC Elbows]

"Seriously, the rest of the summer is going to suck busboy **** for ketchup packets compared to this scene. "

That is pure genius. I am humbled.

[Shuul Vis]

HOLY ****ING **** THAT IS ****ING HILARIOUS. WAIT, I MEAN OH MY ****ING GOD THAT KICKS ASS!

That was pretty funny. Id like to know if that was a published review somewhere as i would like to know if someone actually paid him to write it. The best part was where he said the french didnt help us against egypt lol.

[Suntzu]

all of that corny fanboy excitement make me enjoy the movie less and less...

EDIT - wth was that commercial for during Smallville that had dude hangin form the side of the building????

[Kristoffer]

It may mean that the machines had run simulations of Matrix/battle against Zion/confronting the One. ..So that they know how to do it well when the time comes. The creator did say something like
"And we are getting BETTER at it all the time" sorta.. Why would the machines care if they got better at destroying that wich should already be a program?


And I think that the french guy has some connection with Neo too. He may very well be an earlier version of him for some reason. My friend noticed that when they were in his home, on his door were the SAME numbers as Neo's apartement in the first movie :) Pretty cool.

The idea that Zion is just a part of Matrix or a different program would be cool but, I would rather see a war between the machines and the humans. I think I'd enjoy it more. Anyways I'm gonna see it again tonight so I'll try to look for clues. I LOVED THIS SEQUEL!

[Kristoffer]

Oh and about the Oracle and her 'bodyguard'. WTF!? :D
He's named after a rank of angels:

Seraphim: These are the highest order or choir of angels. They are the angels who are attendants or guardians before God's throne. They praise God, calling, "Holy Holy Holy is the Lord of Hosts". the only Bible reference is Isaiah 6:1-7. One of them touched Isaiah's lips with a live coal from the altar, cleansing him from sin. Seraphim have six wings, two cover their faces, two cover their feet, and two are for flying.

[@PLUGO]

Oh and about the Oracle and her 'bodyguard'. WTF!?

Well That's one of the cool things About the MATRIX films... They borrow liberally from alot of sources and the use of "names" goes along way towards moving the story's subtext forward...

Neo = New (anigram for one)
Morpheus (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/morpheus.html) = Lord of Dreams
Trinity = 3 that are 1 more or less
Oracle=well, an Oracle
Seraph= a kind of guardian Angel?
Persephone= goddess of the underworld (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/persephone.html)
Merovingian (http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?search=Merovingian&go=Go)=of the dynasty that originated what is now france

[Kristoffer]

"Seraph= a kind of guardian Angel?"

Actually no. It is said to be about 9 'ranks' of angels and these are the highest ones, protecting God and the throne.
check this out: http://www.catholic.org/saints/anglchoi.shtml

[@PLUGO]

One of them touched Isaiah's lips with a live coal from the altar, cleansing him from sin.

also from that site...

Archangels:
Archangels are generally taken to mean "chief or leading angel" ( Jude 9; 1 Thes 4:16), they are the most frequently mentioned throughout the Bible. They may be of this or other hierarchies as St. Michael Archangel, who is a princely Seraph. The Archangels have a unique role as God's messenger to the people at critical times in history and salvation (Tb 12:6, 15; Jn 5:4; Rv 12:7-9) as in The Annunciation and Apocalypse. Of special significance is St. Michael as he has been invoked as patron and protector by the Church from the time of the Apostles. The Eastern Rite and many others place him over all the angels, as Prince of the Seraphim. He is described as the "chief of princes" and as the leader of the forces of heaven in their triumph over Satan and his followers.


Could we then infer that the Architect is actually "satan." In Gnostic terms it's believed satan created the world to keep man from recognizing the glory of god. Also these line could Oracle play the role of God(dess) with Seraph as her ArchAngel and Neo as her messanger/christ figure?

[SevenStar]

I say he's about 13, maybe younger

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Design Sifu


also from that site...

Archangels:
Archangels are generally taken to mean "chief or leading angel" ( Jude 9; 1 Thes 4:16), they are the most frequently mentioned throughout the Bible. They may be of this or other hierarchies as St. Michael Archangel, who is a princely Seraph. The Archangels have a unique role as God's messenger to the people at critical times in history and salvation (Tb 12:6, 15; Jn 5:4; Rv 12:7-9) as in The Annunciation and Apocalypse. Of special significance is St. Michael as he has been invoked as patron and protector by the Church from the time of the Apostles. The Eastern Rite and many others place him over all the angels, as Prince of the Seraphim. He is described as the "chief of princes" and as the leader of the forces of heaven in their triumph over Satan and his followers.


Could we then infer that the Architect is actually "satan." In Gnostic terms it's believed satan created the world to keep man from recognizing the glory of god. Also these line could Oracle play the role of God(dess) with Seraph as her ArchAngel and Neo as her messanger/christ figure?

The guy who wrote the article I posted a link to approached this possibility also.

"After the requisite battles and explosions, Neo gets into the Core and finds The Architect. Considering that The Architect built the Matrix, you might think that he's God. Of course, he's nothing of the sort. In Gnostic theology, it is Satan, not God, who has created the world in order to imprison humanity. It is also the Architect who is unleashing the Sentinels to destroy Zion; that is, beginning the Battle of Armageddon. It is my prediction that in the third and final film, it will be revealed that there is a power behind the Architect, and that he is the one who sent the One into the Matrix. It is also my prediction that this guy will look a lot like Neo."

[SevenStar]

for all the geeks, here's a pic of that nmap hack that trinity used:

http://images.insecure.org/nmap/images/matrix/Nmap_Matrix_Screen_Huge.jpg


it's actually a legit ssh hack that's been used - I thought that was cool.

[@PLUGO]

Yeah... I read that one...

have I posted (http://metaphilm.com/philm.php?id=100_0_2_0_M) this one before?

cool tidbit on the HACKING...

I'll have to try it. ;) :p

[shaolin kungfu]

I haven't been able to see the movie yet, but I started playing the game. It's pretty cool. The "focus" is really well done and it's easy to perform cool maneuvers.

Since I haven't seen the movie I don't know if this part is in there. There was a guy in the matrix in the game that said zion lasted 72 hours last time. Is he in the movie too? He's a crazy looking guy that looks like a homeless bum.

[Kristoffer]

Phew.. I saw Matrix Reloaded 2 days in a row with top notch seats. And I wanna see it again lol..
Me and soem friends discussed the creator and all and this is what we came up with;



Zion is FAKE. Zion is probebly another matrix wich these 'rebels' that can't except the matrix and wakes up gets to 'live' in. They never once even concider the possebillity that Zion is fake coz who would beleive it? I get this feeling when Neo is talking to the old man at night in the balcony. He sounds like he beginns to see the truth. (talking about how the ppl of Zion just takes the city for granted -that they see it but don't understand it. Or something :) ) This would make sense since Neo could STOP a machine in what should be the 'real' world. This could only be done if they were located in a program. Remember that a Mr Smith entered the ZION world... This should also be impossible unless Zion is in fact just another program.

Neo is a program. Or maybe human with an program in him. he just doesn't realize it yet. I don't think he's like the christ, more of a demon. I think his purpose is to end the cycle of this version of matrix so they can 'reboot' it again. That would make alot of sense considering everything that the creator said to him.
I THINK MORPHEUS IS A PROGRAM TOO!!
Who is he named after? The god of sleep and illusion? http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/morpheus.html
"He appears to humans in their dreams in the shape of a man."
He is the one that gathers the first ones. He is the one that took everyone to the oracle. (how can he know about this renegade program that is the 'oracle'??) We still don't know why he does this. Could it be to keep the humans in controll, manipulating them? I noticed that b4 Neo talks to the old man in Zion at night, there was a short scene with Morpheus looking out in the city saýing: "Good night Zion, sweet dreams" And then he looked REALLY suspicious.

I think that Neo, Morpheus and the creator is just programs or something similar. Maybe there is no real world at all? Maybe the war between humans and machines was won by the humans.. Then they realized that they had no sun so the HUMANS created the matrix to survive! This means that this whole thing is controlled by humans and not the 'machines'.

[dwid]

I think that Neo, Morpheus and the creator is just programs or something similar. Maybe there is no real world at all? Maybe the war between humans and machines was won by the humans.. Then they realized that they had no sun so the HUMANS created the matrix to survive! This means that this whole thing is controlled by humans and not the 'machines'.

This is an intriguing thought, and goes in line with what the old man asked Neo about the meaning of control. Maybe humans created the matrix and Neo is an aberrant program or individual destined to destroy all of humanity by bringing down the matrix.

[Kristoffer]

:)

[Kristoffer]

Glad I made sense

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dwid


This is an intriguing thought, and goes in line with what the old man asked Neo about the meaning of control. Maybe humans created the matrix and Neo is an aberrant program or individual destined to destroy all of humanity by bringing down the matrix.

coincidentally, we talked about this at work earlier today. According to Aasimov's rules of the robots, machines are made to serve man. If that holds true, then it's reasonable to believe that the humans created the matrix to serve them - in this case, keeping them alive.

[dwid]

Yous guys are blowing my mind...

I just hope the third installment is as interesting as all the possibilities we have considered for it.
:D

[shaolin kungfu]

Is the crazy dude in the movie too?

[Kristoffer]

What crazy dude?


Another teory
----------------

Zion IS real. This is the real world and Neo is just a human like the rest. When all the humans are captured in these pods for like, 200-300 years that the matrix existed (it could have gone ALOT longer what do we know),,,, humans have evolved. It's evolution baby. I mean the only thing that is stimulated in these pods is the human MIND. So one could guess that humans brains would sorta evolve to something stronger from this. And when Neo enterd Smith's body in the first movie, maybe something was caught on to him. Something that made Neo 'feel' the machines in the real world, triggering the evolving genes in his human mind.

[shaolin kungfu]

What crazy dude?

Nobody ever listens to me.:(


I haven't been able to see the movie yet, but I started playing the game. It's pretty cool. The "focus" is really well done and it's easy to perform cool maneuvers.

Since I haven't seen the movie I don't know if this part is in there. There was a guy in the matrix in the game that said zion lasted 72 hours last time. Is he in the movie too? He's a crazy looking guy that looks like a homeless bum.

[Kristoffer]

a crazy homeless bum? :) I'm not sure at all who u mean but in the movie there's a guy called the 'architect' that may fit the description. Or maybe the keymaker? Although I don't think he looks like a bum at all. Everything isn't like the movie so I dunno. I'm gonna buy this game on thuesday. I'm really lookin forward to it.

[ZIM]

Well, you guys have convinced me to not bother seeing it until it goes to the cheap theatres- I'll spend my time in more productive areas... ;)

WRT all the speculative nonsense:
"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world, where none suffered. " - Agent Smith

"When originals no longer exist, the last copy is the original." - Umberto Eco, "Foucault's Pendulum", Chapter 18

"I have never doubted the truth of signs, Adso; they are the only things man has with which to orient himself in the world. What I did not understand is the relation among signs . . . I behaved stubbornly, pursuing a semblance of order, when I should have known well that there is no order in the universe."
"But in imagining an erroneous order you still found something. . . ."
"What you say is very fine, Adso, and I thank you. The order that our mind imagines is like a net, or like a ladder, built to attain something. But afterward you must throw the ladder away, because you discover that, even if it was useful, it was meaningless . . . The only truths that are useful are instruments to be thrown away." - Umberto Eco, The Name of the Rose, Seventh Day, Night

[Sho]

I think Matrix Reloaded was a brilliant movie and it shouldn't be criticized as a single movie. It's an episode, therefore, only a portion of the Matrix trilogy as a whole and you shouldn't draw any conclusions until you've seen Matrix Revolutions.

The action choreography was very eye-appealing (hey, what else can you expect from Yuen Wo Ping?), but I didn't quite enjoy the mass butt-kicking scenes with tens of Agent Smith clones fighting Neo.

One thing that really caught my attention in the first Matrix was the scene where Neo said "I know kung fu". Well, how can it be kung fu if the skill was just effortlessly loaded up for him? Hehe, being a bit picky here, but they should have used another term for his fighting skills.

SPOILER ALERT!

The part where Neo met the Architect was so disturbing. It destroyed my conception of the Matrix as well as the real world. And the prophecy being false? There are so many things in Matrix Reloaded that should be clarified in a bit more detailed manner. And yes, I should wait until Matrix Revolutions is out.

[@PLUGO]

here's a list (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4158022744d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=baiul0%2490n6%241%40ID-91786.news.dfncis.de&rnum=63) of interesting tidbits that connect the game to the movie... plus mention of the Crazy Man's appearance in both...

[Kristoffer]

I felt the game was to short, but it was cool to see Ghost and N get some action

[Serpent]

More questions not yet addressed here (interesting discussion btw):

What does Neo have to do now to break the cycle of Neo's/Zion's destruction?

What's Smith up to now? He now a rogue program, building his own power. To what end?

What lies beyond the Architect? (I like the idea that the whole Matrix idea was actually concieved by humans in the first place - nice twist!)

:confused:

[ZIM]

What lies beyond the Architect? Still haven't seen it [nyah nyah] but maybe it'll all wind up like the ending for The Messenger, you know, the part with Dustin Hoffman... :D :p ;)

[Christopher M]

http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/Gnosticism/fall.html

Dense going, but you'll find Oracle in there, as well as the other major players.


Originally posted by Design Sifu
Yeah 'programs' like the architect, the keymaker etc are just program yet can they also be godforms? dieties or Avatars?

Seems to me that gnosticism is clearly the major religious/philosophical influence on the story, and gnosticism contains a detailed doctrine concerning "archons" and other beings who dwell within the (false) creation of the demiurge (architect). Ultimately, the Christian sorts of gnosticism are no different than orthodox or catholic Christianity, except that they use a different mythological language to discuss these topics. The gnostic idea of the demiurge is simply a retelling of the garden of Eden.


very much like how christianity turns older god into either Saints... or Demons... reflect[ing] cultural values frowned upon by the christian church control system

This is getting avidly off-topic, but for sake of discussion...

This is a popular, but inherently flawed, revisionist account of Christianity. You have to realize that religious people of all sorts believe their religion speaks about absolute and subtle contexts using a mythological language. If you believe your religion discusses a "real" topic, rather than being an empty cultural artifact (as you must, if you're truly a religious person), then it's an obvious and necessary conclusion to realize that other cultures will have developed their own mythological language for many of the same concepts. Far from being subversive, the bulk of religious cross-polination is but a reflection of this viewpoint. And it is far from limited to Christianity; as an example, a majority of Haitian Vouduns have avidly embraced Catholicism, and found in it's imagery of saints and angels the same demigods they believed in before encountering Christianity. Of course, seeing Voudun as a cultural expression of real concepts, rather than an empty cultural artifact, they "appropriated" these Christian myths as an "enrichment" upon their own belief systems. Again, this is simply a natural way to operate if you believe religion discusses something real.

More related to the topic at hand, we can see the exact same process in cross-polination between early Christianity and Hellenistic movements such as Neoplatonism and Gnosticism; which ultimately have become inseparable from Christian doctrine. And of course, Neoplatonism and Gnosticism for their share owe to cross-polination from Persian and Egyptian movements, and so on.


Originally posted by Sevenstar
The thing I don't get though, is that if the matrix was destroyed, whyen it was rebuilt, why did he and the woman retain memory of what he used to be?

One would conclude from this that they have an existance outside the Matrix. If you check out the Gnosticism info, pay close attention to the character of 'Sophia.'

[Serpent]

Interesting article, Chris.

From the article:


Sophia's Passion becomes a crisis that upsets the equilibrium of the entire Pleroma, and generates a an "abortion" (i.e. a miscreation), a "formless entity", which is cast into void outside the Pleroma. As a result of this Error, the equilibrium of the Pleroma is disturbed. The Father emanates a new Aeon-pair, Christos- Holy Spirit, which re-establishes the equilibrium of the Pleroma, and to take care of the "formless entity" which had resulted from Sophia's passion.

As a result of the new harmony established by "Christos and Holy Spirit", a new, unpaired Aeon, Jesus, is created, who is the "perfect fruit of the Pleroma", and expresses in his being the attributes of all the other Aeons.

The Christ-Aeon meanwhile shapes the "formless entity" into a new Aeon, called Achamoth (from the Hebrew Hokhmah, "Wisdom"), who becomes a kind of lower Sophia.

Achamoth, realising she is outside the Pleroma and unable to return, experiences emotions such as grief, fear, etc. Jesus then descends from the Pleroma and separates her from these emotions, which then become the substance or primal matter of the Cosmos, i.e. Psyche (Soul/Mind) and Hyle (Matter/Darkness). The material world is thus derived ultimately from a projection of the sufferings of Achamoth. Inasmuch as Achamoth (like Sophia above her, and the Demiurge below her, is in many respects a mythological macrocosmic counterpart of the human ego, she is tormented by the longing for ultimate truth only able to produce a sort of ******* rationalism that has to be "crucified away" before she can be redeemed [E.R.Dodds, Pagan and Christian in an Age of Anxiety, pp.19-20]


So, from this idea:

Is the Formless Entity the Matrix?

A new unimpaired Aeon = Neo?

Achamoth = possibly Agent Smith, now cut off from the source?

Kinda shoehorning it to fit really. ;)

[@PLUGO]

And it is far from limited to Christianity; as an example, a majority of Haitian Vouduns have avidly embraced Catholicism, and found in it's imagery of saints and angels the same demigods they believed in before encountering Christianity. Of course, seeing Voudun as a cultural expression of real concepts, rather than an empty cultural artifact, they "appropriated" these Christian myths as an "enrichment" upon their own belief systems.

Well yeah.... In the greater portion of the Spanish Speaking Carribean The combination of African originated Loa and Cathloc Iconography is called Santirea... loosely translated to Magik of the saints.

It could be said that the imported slaves combined with the native inhabitants of the islands adopted aspects of Catholicism to their root beliefs... However; remember there was an active mission to convert the population to Catholicism at the time and the practive of their root beliefs would be met with severe punishment, a fairly common occurance at the time. The adoption of "saints" wasn't as simple as "Hey that Saint reminds me of PAPA LEGBA!" But more like an offering to PAPA LEGBA being made at a shrine to St. Anthony to avoid persecution from the local missionaries.


but yeah, semantics... I think we're on the same page here...

[Christopher M]

My only point with the example was to point out that the Vouduns appropriated Catholicism into their practice, not vice-versa. And that this method of appropriation, so wide-spread in human culture, has very little to do with a plan of subversion.

Regardless of a past of militant missionary-ism, it's my impression that Vouduns tend to be quite sincere about their love of Catholicism.

[Christopher M]

Serpent - In retrospect, that wasn't really a good link for showing the gnosticism influence in the Matrix. It's got some pertinent points, but it focuses too much on pairing of aeons, which gets pretty obscure pretty fast. That site has a bunch of pages on gnosticism if you're interested though (as well as a bunch of other wierd stuff)... some of which might be more pertinent.

Achamoth is, figuratively speaking, the proto-Matrix. I find the Fall as it's depicted there somewhat less poignant than focusing on the Demi-urge. From this point of view, what makes Achamoth a "Fallen" Aeon (rather than the issues of pairing and birthing aeons) is that the Demi-urge takes himself to be God, and so makes Achamoth in his image, an act which fundamentally distances Achamoth and it's denizens from the Pleroma.

Agent Smith is a demon, which traditionally speaking is an angel who chose to abandon it's role as a natural force in order to be an individual. The regular agents are angels. It's worth pointing out that, traditionally, angels (even non-fallen, non-demon angels) weren't necessarily good, even within strictly non-gnostic Christianity. In Gnostic stories, it's further complicated: the demiurge has angels and heavens of his own, within Achamoth.

We can tell they're being influenced overtly with these ideas with the analogy of the programs as angels (angels being non-willfull natural forces, doing their respective tasks), and with giving Agent Smith the ability to replicate when he rebels (procreation is supposed to be an ability demons have which angels do not).

[Serpent]

Do you think that Smith could be the catalyst that will make this fall different from the rest? Could Smith and his willfullness be the undoing of the Architect's carefully stuctured control system called Neo, therefore the positive change that the Matrix needs?

Do you think that Zion could actually be another aspect of the Matrix, just as unreal as the Matrix itself, therefore meaning that the control system is within the main system all along? In which case, what/where is the "real" world?

[@PLUGO]

My only point with the example was to point out that the Vouduns appropriated Catholicism into their practice, not vice-versa. And that this method of appropriation, so wide-spread in human culture, has very little to do with a plan of subversion.

Regardless of a past of militant missionary-ism, it's my impression that Vouduns tend to be quite sincere about their love of Catholicism.

it's cool I dig your posts... & yeah I would agree with the Vouduns' sincere acceptance of Catholicism with-in it's own cosmology...

I especially like what you where saying about a method that reflects a universal truth over cultural baggage...
The status of say the Virgin Mary I believe speaks volumes for this, & could be viewed as an almost straight line up from the temple of Isis.

BUT getting back to the MATRIX...

Part of me hopes it will be revealed that THE whole Matrix scenerio is really constructed to give human minds much needed activity while a Human/Machine symbiotic "ark" travel through space seeking a new planet to inhabit because the original earth was distroyed...
Not that there are any clues leading in that direction...

Neo's "stopping" those Sentinal-Squids is the big "WHAT THa?"

Possible explainations include:


[list=a]
The world of Zion is another layer of THE MATRIX
Neo's time spent in THE CORE has boosted his connection with machines
Neo is actually a program able to comunicate to the machine while housed inMr. Anderson's Body
Neo did die in the first movie and THE ONE program was implanted by a sentinal just before the EMP was set off
[/list=a]

SMITH is a very interesting dynamic & I suspect there will have to be a sort of unification between SMITH & NEO which would then be reflected by a sort of unification between the Humans & Machines. I'm wondering if a failed assination by the Smith in human form leads Neo to return to the Matrix where Smith has prettymuch consumed every individual there, leaving the Matrix as a crystalized world of SMITHS & one Neo. Afterwhich the Matrix would be empty an in need of Zion to reinstall diversity.

Assuming diversity wuld be needed for the maintanance of The Matrix...

curius & curiouser

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Serpent
Do you think that Smith could be the catalyst that will make this fall different from the rest?

I guess that depends if you think Smith is any different than the other demons - the Oracle, the keymaker, the french dude, and so on. I don't think we know enough to know the answer to this.

Certainly, that he's a rogue program/demon isn't enough in itself to change the Matrix; since we know there's been others of those, even ones who've lived through Matrix incarnations. But it's possible he's something more. Are they playing an anti-christ card here? Dunno.

Gnosticism and Christianity aren't as keen on the "anti-christ" idea as common perception would hold. Both are fundamentally monist (rather than dualist) systems. For a Gnostic and/or Christian, there's no counterpart to God, and no counterpart to Christ. But we don't know how close they're sticking to gnosticism anyway. :p


Do you think that Zion could actually be another aspect of the Matrix

If they stuck to gnosticism, I'd say the most obvious "answer" is that Zion is actually a part of the Matrix - that they never unplugged their bodies, but this was just another illusion. This would be analogous to the heavens the demiurge created in Achamoth.


The status of say the Virgin Mary I believe speaks volumes for this, & could be viewed as an almost straight line up from the temple of Isis.

In ways, yeah. Corrospondingly, the analogy of Osiris to Christ is pretty remarkable.

[Kristoffer]

The more I think of Zion as being a another illusion/matrix the more I start to doubt it. It's TOO OBVIOUS to be true. I somehow beleive that the W brothers have something bigger going on..

[@PLUGO]

In ways, yeah. Corrospondingly, the analogy of Osiris to Christ is pretty remarkable.

Totally... I remeber flipping through a Book (by Joseph Cambell probably) comparing statues of Isis sitting with a baby Horus on her lap and Christian paintings with nearly the exact same composition with a Virgin Mary. But like you said earlier about universal truths dressed in cultural Myths...

Getting back to Free Agent Smith:

here's (http://thematrix.talkinbout.us/) an interesting theory:
Agent Smith as St. Paul.
In A.N. Wilson's biography, [Saint] Paul is depicted as a man that starts out life basically enforcing the rules of the Temple; working somewhat as a policeman at best, and thug at worst. Ultimately this results in the murder of St. Steven. However, when he is "converted" after being "struck blind", he applies his tireless "programming" to his new cause; converting every living person to Christianity. He does this relentlessly and greatly outside the wishes of those in the early followers of Jesus (Peter and James being two that are within the Zion view, and disagree with Paul's tactics and authorization). To some degree, this seems like Smith in many cases.

[Christopher M]

The commentary on that email is bang-on, but I disagree with some aspects of the characterization of Paul. Peter was the great missionary and converter, not Paul. Paul's writings are almost entirely directed at people who allready consider themselves Christians. He did get in huge disagreements with Peter and almost every one else; but it was not due to zealous conversion, but rather due to his dedication to a certain interpretation of Christianity which was different than theirs. Specifically, except for Paul, most everyone would have been content to see Christianity as a sect of Judaiism. For a time, Pauline theology defined the church, but it's long since been forgotten (particularly in the western churches) except in lipservice, which is a **** shame.

[ZIM]

oh headache, headache! owie (http://www.philipkdi ck.com/weirdo.htm)

[Laughing Cow]

Just read the review in the local newspaper on Matrix reloaded.
:eek: :eek: :eek:

It managed to get a rating just better than "Attack of the Clones" & "Spiderman" and is being totally ripped to shred.
Review mentioned that you also need to watch Animatrix to get it all.
2.5 stars out of 5

"About Schmidt" the new Jack Nicholson movie got 4 out of 5.
:p

Looks like special effects and wire stunts don't sell that well over here.

Cheers.

[ZIM]

ow make it stop (http://matrixessays.blogspot.com/2003_05_01_matrixessays_archive.html)

[@PLUGO]

here have another!!! (http://www.techgnosis.com/matrixre.html)

;)

[ZIM]

haha, i already read that. neener neener

this (http://www.collisiondetection.net/mt/archives/000377.html)


Plus, the little bits of old technology that allow the protagonists to switch between the Matrix and the real world reminds me a lot of Zizek's notion of the traumatic real: an knot or a scar that mars the inside of the simulacrum that is your reality, reminding you of the simulacrum's limits but reminding you that you can't get outside of that simulacrum to the really real.
I´m thinking of announcing a contest -- to condense the basic philosophical point of The Matrix to a haiku :eek:

[Kristoffer]

My head is spinning... On a side note, I like the pics in this site
http://www.speakeasy.org/~chipper/Pictures/comparitive-pics/comparitive-pics.htm

:cool:

[MasterKiller]

The world that we know,
is not the real world, I know.
Computers cannot taste chicken.

[MasterKiller]

I watched the Animatrix last night. In two of the episodes, they detail how machines came to power, and how they created the Matrix, so all the speculation about people actually being behind the concept are out the door.

[@PLUGO]

planning on watching it this weekend at my friend's place. He's got a DVD projector so we can watch it on his wall... :D

[MasterKiller]

It was pretty cool. One of the episodes explains the story behind the kid who follows Neo around in Zion during Reloaded.

Another one is a story about a "haunted house" that kind of expands on all that stuff said in Reloaded about Vampires and ghosts, etc...

There is also a cartoon about Trinity's early years....

The one about the Track Runner confused me, though. Wasn't quite sure what they were getting at. It seemed like a very Ch'an theme, where he transcends the illusions of life by pushing himself beyond physical limits....But I dunno. They could have been just insinuating that athletes are manipulating the Matrix without being consciously aware of it.

[@PLUGO]

Yeah some amazing stuff...

That track racing story,

World Record

Was quite a piece. But yeah I got it as he was pushing the very boundaries of what was possible. His continual beating of his own record (implied) attractd the attention of agent who seem to want to keep any individual from standing too far apart from the rest.
Like he said to that reporter about feeling like flying, like anything was possible. His running was a means to transend the confines of the Matrix.

Now what was the deals with him in the wheelchair with some "nuts" in his hands?
Was is a sort of castration? By trying to take away his ability to walk they where making him "impotent" & thus unable to effect The Matrix in such a way. A situation he seems entent on freeing himself from anyway as he attempts to stand anyway.

The SECOND RENNASIANCE series was amazing as well.

I particularly enjoyed the haunted house story Beyond

but you gotta give props to tha final story when they set out to "free" the mind of a machine....


Oh and you gotta love that Sword Porn in the first sequence!!!
:eek: :p :p :p

[MasterKiller]

I missed whatever happened after that private eye tracked down Trinity. Whenever it rains hard, my Direct TV goes out.

[@PLUGO]

Duuuuude . . .

That last episode was AMAZING!!!
It was called matriculation and was done by the folks who did MTV's AEON FLUX.

It follows the story of a group of humans who are unplugged and offer themselves as bait for machines. They then run the machines into traps so as to capture and attempt to reprogram them. It becomes a whole matrix/with-in/Matrix thing while effectively blending flat cell animation with CGI animation. Durring a mind-blowing sequence the humans all plug into a virtual world along with a captured machine and attepmt to convince the machine that it's actually human (sort of).
P S C H O D E L I C 2 T H E M A X ! ! !

[ZIM]

I finally bothered to see the matrix reloaded. jesus what a bore ...i want my time back, never mind the money. ugh. it was like rereading atlas shrugged or anything by stephen king. ugh ugh ugh pretentious twaddle.

the whole choice at the architects crib thing was just a pale replay of "the lady or the tiger?" to me. This is Tron, just Tron.

The animatrix was better, tho, imo.

[Kristoffer]

:rolleyes: