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KenWingJitsu
05-09-2003, 11:36 AM
Okay. By popular demand, here it is. Should be another interesting thread.

As mentioned on the other thread, some of the "anti(counter)-grappling" we do is modified from simple WC techs, and principles.
Even when placed on your back, your primary goal of maintaining your center line to your opponent applies, as does maintaining your "wedge" for when you need to strike.

There are several examples of this, but the one I have found most useful is using the chi-sao sensitivity to "reclaim" your leg when ever your opponent, a grappler, tries to control your leg. Say you're on your back, he is standing, he grabs an ankle in an attept to fling it to the side so he can pass your open guard. You "HUEN GERK" - circle your ankle over his wrist, and the bottom of your foot now winds up on top of his wrist. From here you can slide-kick his hand off easily. it is important to note that the goal is to get your foot OVER the top of his wrist.....because when he grabs your ankle, his wrist is above your foot, which is what he needs to control your whole leg. Your goal is to reverse the position of your ankle in relation to his wrist...do this by circling. If you're familiar with huen-saos, then you should realize you can apply a huen sao with your foot = HUEN GERK

The next most useful thing I have found lately is the "slide off action". lol. I dont know the name of it but at the end of SLT, the very LAST set you do before the chain punches where you SLIDE your palm over your forearm & wrist?.....well, you do the SAME THING WITH YOUR LEGS. You can do it
(1) after you've done the Huen Gerk to control his wrist, (the sliding off removes his grip completely, and you can now stand up), or
(2) You can use this slide off motion to escape several different leg locks...in combination with a wrist control on his "locking" hand.....the wrist control is ...you guessed it.....Lop sao!!!! Lop his 'securing wrist' (the hand that is NOT wrapped around your foot), then slide your foot over your shin that's being "locked", and you'll be able to get out of - Ankle/achiles lock, Inside Heel hook, and Fig 4 Foot lock.

marcelino31
05-09-2003, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Okay. By popular demand, here it is. Should be another interesting thread.

As mentioned on the other thread, some of the "anti(counter)-grappling" we do is modified from simple WC techs, and principles.
Even when placed on your back, your primary goal of maintaing your center line to your opponent applies, as does maintaining your "wedge" for when you need to strike.

there are several examples of this, but the one I have found most useful is using the chi-sao sensitivity to "reclaim" your leg when ever your opponent a grappler tries to control your leg. Sya you're on your back, he is standing, he grabs an ankle in an attept to fling it to the sid eso he can pass your open guard. You "HUEN GERK" - circleyour ankle over his wrist, and the bottom of your foot now winds up on top of his wrist. from here you can kick his hand off easily. it is important to note that the goal is to get your foot OVER the top of his wrist...when he grabs your ankle his wrist is above your foot, which is what he needs to control your whole leg. Your goal is to reverse the position of your ankle in relation to his wrist...do this by circling. If tyou're familiar with huen-saos, then you should realize you can apply a huen sao with your foot = HUEN GERK

The next most useful thing I have found lately is the "slide off action". lol. I dont know the name of it but at the end of SLT, the very LAST set you do before the chain punches where you SLIDE

Are you referring to the chit sao motion? Are you trying to do this motion with your legs?

Merryprankster
05-09-2003, 11:42 AM
KWJ--how does this differ from the normal foot fencing a good open guard player would do?

reneritchie
05-09-2003, 11:51 AM
Dhira,

Excellent stuff! WCK fan kum na (counter seizing and holding) IMHO is very good and applicable in many situations simply because it uses basic leverage, angulation, and lines of force. Robust.

BTW- I've seen BJJ people do similar stuff to. Jen used it to free his legs from grapevines (huen'd one leg free than use the free leg to wipe the other one free). You can call the last move Tuet or Lat Sao (freeing hand).

Merryprankster
05-09-2003, 11:59 AM
rene,

sort of my point. Good foot fencing for lack of a better term is going to have the same principles. Good principles transcend style and terminology.

This is why I'm a firm believer in the idea that we can't all be doing things THAT much differently, whatever we'd like to believe....

fa_jing
05-09-2003, 11:59 AM
Well I don't have so much experience with ground grappling, but I see what he's describing as a logical extension of Wing Chun principles to new territory. I found a similar thing as I translated my WC forms/drilling practice into a live situation with boxing gloves. Under the guidance of my Sifu who is expert in making that transition. Basically our WC terms and motions, etc provide a framework by which we understand movement and fighting. So when you understand the principle behind pak sao, you easily make the adjustment to slapping away a shot with your boxing glove. When you understand jut sao, you have no problem using the fleshy front of the glove to hook your opponent's hand down, instead of cupping your hand. WC motions are varied enough to have a close parallel with most motions a fighter performs under any circumstance.

Basically what I'm saying is that if KWJ's escape looks externally the same as a normally foot fencer, that actually proves the validity of the approach. WC when you understand it, is a framework of mental approach and a conceptualization of body movement that can be applied to most combative situations not involving projectiles. In the case of ground grappling, no I don't think it is enough on its own, but if you learn BJJ, I'm sure you'll come across movements that fit right into your way of thinking.

Chi Gerk deals with manipulating your and your opponent's lower legs - circling around, pulling down, deflecting to one side or another, hooking. It does increase your sensitivity. It translates well to standing grappling as well - some of the movements are very similar to leg hooking, and the evasive aspect will help you avoid the same. It's a "legs vs. legs" paradigm, so applying it to the guard would take some adjusting to.

yuanfen
05-09-2003, 12:17 PM
MP- the details can matter.
Good post KWJ

reneritchie
05-09-2003, 12:19 PM
MP - You're correct as usual.

KenWingJitsu
05-09-2003, 12:24 PM
KWJ--how does this differ from the normal foot fencing a good open guard player would do?
MP, honestly, there is hardly a difference at all...in the first movement I described...the 'overlaying 'of the foot on the wrist. In fact I remember reading an article by Royler Gracie describing this same move. I'm pretty sure he never did chi-gerk ;) The only minor difference if there is one, is that if done from a WC standpoint, most of the rotation should be at the ankle; the Knee shouldn't move much. Most BJJ players when doing it tend to use a slightly bigger arc on the circle, but it's essentially the same thing.
The bigger difference however is in the slide off/removal of the controlling wrist. I've not seen that taught. Generally a "pure" grappler's intent is to "suck his opponent back into the guard". So after foot fencing/overlaying the foot, they tend to go right to a "spider guard" as opposed to a complete disengagement. A complete disengagement is more conducive to those less comfortable on the ground who want to get back up as quickly as possible.

AndrewS
05-09-2003, 01:37 PM
Dhira,

from what I understand, the base is different, too.

WT the two points beneath the shoulder blades and back heel form a pyramid of stability to allow loose hip and ankle motion, and maintain a base.

From what I understand of BJJ, one tends to be a bit more to one side or the other.


Andrew

Knifefighter
05-09-2003, 05:28 PM
KWJ:
Thanks for the post. I was a WC practioner years ago but pretty much abonded most of it in favor of a more boxing/Muay Thai approach while standing. Interestingly enough, when I got into BJJ, I started utilizing some of my long-neglected WC techs while striking on the ground.