pigeon toed vs parallel leg

[marcelino31]

Here is a simple experiment to test the effectiveness of pigeoned toed vs parallel leg stance.

Find a large hanging punching bag assume a parallel leg stance and with your hands out slightly in front of you contacting the bag, walk into the bag and see how much effort or strain you experience holding this position. Now if you let go of the forward pressure your applying to the bag it will push you back and you will have to exert a lot of counter pressure to keep your balance.

Now try the same experiment with the pigeon toed stance you will find that you have much better control of your balance both moving forward with the bag and backwards.

To me the pigeon toed stance is superior to parallel leg and to hell with that restricting your mobility bs!

woof woof

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Pigeon toe is common among many arts! Its not just a WC thing so the idea that it was just something made up to make an art less effective is kind of funny! Look at different south mantis arts, other san chin related arts, Ba Gwa arts, etc. they all make use of it. The effectiveness of an art lies in the dedication of its practitioner!


Regards,

[TjD]

Originally posted by marcelino31
To me the pigeon toed stance is superior to parallel leg and to hell with that restricting your mobility bs!


preach on brotha! pidgeon-toed forever! :cool:


however, take that same bag and now assume a side stance. push on the bag again. i bet you're going to want your feet parallel :D

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by TjD

preach on brotha! pidgeon-toed forever! :cool:
however, take that same bag and now assume a side stance. push on the bag again. i bet you're going to want your feet parallel :D

How do you do your side stance? Yes you are right with a front stance (is that your side stance ?) you will also be a bit less stable because you have one less leg to disperse the force coming back at you.

[TjD]

not to open the 100/0 vs 50/50 weight can of worms but at my school we train for rear-rootedness (rear weightedness).

you're probably never going to be square on in the YGKYM in a confrontation anyways.

our side stance (basically) is take your YGKYM, rotate your torso so you're facing 90 degrees to the left or right of where you were while rotating the lead leg to make your feet parallel. we keep the weight on the rear leg (some people dont).

with enough training, you get used to absorbing and generating power from this rear leg, so it really isn't an issue - unless you're a beginner.

practicing the pidgeon-toed stance in SLT just makes this one legged root easier, you start off with two legs so you can keep your balance and work up to chum kiu and one legged siu lim tau which put more emphasis on the one legged root.

i highly doubt that in a confrontation youll be able to run up to the guy (or girl), say 'wait a minute while i line up my legs and get into my pidgeon-toed stance so im perfectly rooted.' chances are you'll have one leg in front of the other (side-stance) and have to depend on this rear rootedness.

[dzu]

IMo there isn't a superior horse. Each has it's function based upon a variety of circumstances at any particular moment. I can pass your experiment using both methods. What's more important is to understand the concept of rooting and the principles of body alignment, sensitivity, and keeping your horse alive. That way, you can train and adapt to any situation regardless of how your feet are positioned or what your weighting is.

Dzu

[Phil Redmond]

I agree with you. Footwork is phasic not static. Proper horse development will come with diligent practice.
PR

[TjD]

Originally posted by dzu
IMo there isn't a superior horse. Each has it's function based upon a variety of circumstances at any particular moment. I can pass your experiment using both methods. What's more important is to understand the concept of rooting and the principles of body alignment, sensitivity, and keeping your horse alive. That way, you can train and adapt to any situation regardless of how your feet are positioned or what your weighting is.

Dzu

i was trying to point out in my original post that theres barely any difference (if any) between parallel and pidgeon toed in application. personally i find the pidgeon toed more rooted and comfortable than parallel while doing siu lim tau and drills not requiring me to move my legs, but thats more a matter of preference i guess. once things start moving the back leg is the root anyhow and there is no difference between parallel/pidgeon toed.

[dzu]

Travis,

I understand what you are saying, but my point is that the back leg isn't always the root. Sometimes the front leg is the root, sometimes the back leg is the root, sometimes both legs are the root, and sometimes the root changes from back to front and vice versa. It all depends upon what you feel at your bridge(s), the environment, and what forces are acting upon you as changes occur.

Dzu

[anerlich]

Neither the parallel stance or pigeon toes stance is used in actual fighting.

In my lineage we don't practice either any more.

[TjD]

Originally posted by dzu
Travis,

I understand what you are saying, but my point is that the back leg isn't always the root. Sometimes the front leg is the root, sometimes the back leg is the root, sometimes both legs are the root, and sometimes the root changes from back to front and vice versa. It all depends upon what you feel at your bridge(s), the environment, and what forces are acting upon you as changes occur.

Dzu


quite true, but more often than not the back leg is the root... and if the front leg is the root usually it doesn't stay that way for long :D but thats teh problem in generalizations.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by dzu
IMo there isn't a superior horse. Each has it's function based upon a variety of circumstances at any particular moment. I can pass your experiment using both methods. What's more important is to understand the concept of rooting and the principles of body alignment, sensitivity, and keeping your horse alive. That way, you can train and adapt to any situation regardless of how your feet are positioned or what your weighting is.

Dzu

I have seen a lot of people doing the parallel stance and really sinking so much that their knees go past their toes. This moves the COG forward more and affacts stability. When you do a pigeon toed stance properly you don't have to sink as much and I feel like a I have better mobility and less tension on my legs.

The heels turned out in the pigeon toes (in the bag experiment) directs incoming energy away from the body with the feet parallel incoming energy goes into the body and you feel more pressure.

I agree with TJD about prefering the toe in stance.

[EnterTheWhip]

The pigeon toe stance renders you far more mobile than the parallel. Yes, root can be found in the parallel. But there's rooting, and then there's rooting.

[HuangKaiVun]

Against a skilled streetfighter (i.e. somebody who knows how to strike and grapple and finish), you'll end up using both stances as well as quite a few others out there!

[Phil Redmond]

marcelino wrote:
"I have seen a lot of people doing the parallel stance and really sinking so much that their knees go past their toes. This moves the COG forward more and affacts stability. When you do a pigeon toed stance properly you don't have to sink as much and I feel like a I have better mobility and less tension on my legs."

In the TWC parallel stance, (YJKYM) the knees should never go past the toes. The structure of the lower leg should be in a column perpendicular to the ground as much as possible. I'm not sure how other people do their parallel stance.
PR

[planetwc]

Hey Andrew,

What stances do you use now with Spain Sifu's organization?

Can you describe them and why it is felt neither of the other 2 stances are used in say close quarters fighting?

Thanks!


Originally posted by anerlich
Neither the parallel stance or pigeon toes stance is used in actual fighting.

In my lineage we don't practice either any more.