7*Mantis Grandmaster?

[Brad]

Anyone ever heard of this guy?

http://www.chinwoomen.com/kaiuwepel.html

"Master Kai Uwe Pel was born in Recklinghausen, Germany in 1964. Kai Uwe Pel has been deeply involved in Chinese Martial Art since he began his formal training in Hong Kong at the age of sixteen. Since that time, he has studied with many noted Masters both in this country and in the Orient and has himself taught for more than 20 years.

While in Singapore, Kai Uwe Pel also took the opportunity to study with his respected Praying Mantis Kung Fu and Taijiquan Grandmaster Koh Kim Kok.

Traditional training in Master Koh's class was very arduous. Students were expected to attend seven days a week, beginning with a class in the early morning and then between two and three hours in the evening. After many years, Master Pel was initiated as Master Koh's disciple meaning that their relationship became as close as that of father and son.

Since starting to teach Kung Fu, Master Kai Uwe Pel has striven to not only pass on Praying Mantis in its traditional form but to ensure that his western students grasp the importance of the moral and philosophical teachings that ensure that this potentially lethal martial art is fully respected and that practitioners behave with respect towards the art, themselves and other people.

"My goal is to introduce Praying Mantis Kung Fu to as many people as possible, at the same time maintaining the high standards set by my own master and his predecessors," Master Pel says. "I believe one of the most efficient ways of doing this is to teach students who are willing to dedicate their lives to learning Praying Mantis Kung Fu full-time".

Today, Master Kai Uwe Pel still teaches a select group in Shanghai. He is regarded as a living legend in Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu circles and is without doubt the most knowledgeable Praying Mantis master alive today."

[Skarbromantis]

"Today, Master Kai Uwe Pel still teaches a select group in Shanghai. He is regarded as a living legend in Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu circles and is without doubt the most knowledgeable Praying Mantis master alive today."



:rolleyes:

Skard1

[B.Tunks]

Re:

Today, Master Kai Uwe Pel still teaches a select group in Shanghai. He is regarded as a living legend in Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu circles and is without doubt the most knowledgeable Praying Mantis master alive today."


'cough-cough', awkward silence etc...

B.T

[Brad]

I take it this guy is bogus? Anyone heard of this "World Famous" master? :D

[Skarbromantis]

Dont know if he is bogus, but this line:

"He is regarded as a living legend in Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu circles and is without doubt the most knowledgeable Praying Mantis master alive today"

is worthy of a...."ok sure there buddy"

Skard1

[mantis108]

<<<Grand what?
Re:

Today, Master Kai Uwe Pel still teaches a select group in Shanghai. He is regarded as a living legend in Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu circles and is without doubt the most knowledgeable Praying Mantis master alive today."


'cough-cough', awkward silence etc...

B.T>>>>

No argument from here. * I think this is a first * :D:D:D

Brad,

His name does pop up from time to time. This time is the first time that I am aware of his claim to be a GM and inheritor of LGY's style which is an enormous claim by any measure. Isn't there a difference between practitioner and a inheritor? I also don't know how they define most knowledgeable. A lot of people on this board are very knowledgeable if not some of the most knowledgeable of their respective styles of PM. The PM history article that they have doesn't impress me as having the most knowledgeable insight. I mean anyone can find that kind of info on the net these days. Since I am a lowly practitioner of a quite different lineage, I guess it is up to their higher ups in their own lineage to figure it out and clarify.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MightyB]

Why LGY? He could've just said that he was the true inheritor of Wong Long's system and that Wong Long taught him while he was tripping on Peyote. It's amazing how many sub 40 year old white guys that LGY taught, considering how dead he was when this guy was born.

I don't know, PM is getting waaayyyy tooooo political. Thank my lucky 7 stars that I'm somewhat isolated from all that BS.

"Grand Master" is becomming somewhat of a false term almost as much as the word "sifu" has become. Crapulence, pure crapulence...

[RAYNYSC]

Today Master Kai uwe Pei still teaches a select group in shanghai. He is regarded as a living legend in the Northern Praying Mantis Kung fu Circles and without doubt the most knowledgeable Praying Mantis Master alive today....

Maybe It's just me but I was under the impression that Mr.Steve Cottrell & Mr. Jon Funk were the most knowledgeable not to mention the leading authority's on the 7Star Mantis System.

In all fairness I would like to hear what Mr. Cottrell & Mr. Funk have to say about Mr. Kai uwe pei & his claims of being the most knowledeable in the 7 Star Mantis System etc.etc.....

Since Mr. Cottrell & Mr. Funk are Legends in there own mind's :rolleyes:

[ursa major]

... "Today, Master Kai Uwe Pel still teaches a select group in Shanghai. He is regarded as a living legend in Northern Praying Mantis Kung Fu circles and is without doubt the most knowledgeable Praying Mantis master alive today."

Tall claims.

UM.

[MightyB]

Maybe It's just me but I was under the impression that Mr.Steve Cottrell & Mr. Jon Funk were the most knowledgeable not to mention the leading authority's on the 7Star Mantis System.

Not even close.

Let's not forget about the Chiu Luen line, the Lai line, Sifu Henry Chung and his line, and the most knowledgable... Sigung Chung Ho Yin (retired). These people are in the US. You also have a ton of extremely knowledgable Sifu in Texas all trained by Sifu Raymond Fogg (Brandon Jones, John Cheng, Jeff Hughes, Richard ***an, I know I'm missing a few) --- guys, there are a lot of very knowledgable 7* Sifu out there. Cottrell and Funk are just the best at self promotion.

[Brad]

Well, thanks for the info. I was talking to someone in Shanghai who told me this guy accepted him as a private student recently. Frankly some things he started telling me didn't quite check out. For example, he tried telling me that the Chin Woo we know of wasn't legit and that this was the "real" Chin Woo. When I talked to him about the Chin Woo World Championships, he said that his teacher recently "gave them permission" to use the name. He also said that Chin Woo in Shanghai called him in to bring back traditional wushu to Shanghai Chin Woo as all they practiced there was modern "gymnastic" wushu, but then he was fired for being white... It sounds like this guy enjoys overstating his importance.

[Brad]

This whole thing got started with me talking about Shanghai Chin Woo modern wushu, lol. Thought I'd get a better idea of where he was coming from by checking out what sort of teacher he has. Well, I think I'm going to just warn this guy to be checking into his teacher's background himself and then go on with my life pretending I never heard of the guy. The last thing I want to do is get involved in some kind of praying mantis "lineage war", as I'm not even a praying mantis practitioner :p

[cha kuen]

Maybe It's just me but I was under the impression that Mr.Steve Cottrell & Mr. Jon Funk were the most knowledgeable not to mention the leading authority's on the 7Star Mantis System.

I would not say that Cottrell and Funk are the most knowledable ones in mantis today.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by cha kuen


I would not say that Cottrell and Funk are the most knowledable ones in mantis today.

Perhapse not, but they are in the forefront (note: I did not say the only ones) of Mantis Sifu that openly share their information with others not only of their own style, but with the MA world in general. BTW, they are both very knowledgable in their respective families of 7* even though their directions of thought are not parallel.

Besides,...what do they have to do with Kai Uwe Pel or claiming mastery of anything?? In all my years with Sifu Cottrell, I have never heard these words from him nor seen him write anything even similar.

There are several very good/great Sifu of the 7* line in several families. Seek them out & learn from them. I have done this in the past & have always come away with usefull information.

Best Wishes to all,
BTL

[MightyB]

There are several very good/great Sifu of the 7* line in several families. Seek them out & learn from them. I have done this in the past & have always come away with usefull information.

Right on and Kind've my point.

I think that 7* is getting so huge and so widespread that anybody claiming anything outside of their own line is a bit distasteful. Besides, if you start to claim anything, you start to close doors to a lot of wonderful opportunities to learn.

[MantisifuFW]

For Reference Please Read:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19222&perpage=15&highlight=Steals%20the%20Peach&pagenumber=3

For my answer, I shall compare Sifu Pel to RAYNYSC:

Shifu Pel has actually done Tanglang research.

RAYNYSC has proven that he does NOT do the research he claims to have done and cannot be believed at face value whenever he makes any statements. (Including those about me, apparently).

Shifu Pel does try to share his information on Tanglang with anyone wishing to share, debate or learn about the nature of Tanglang techniques or the differences between styles (though he does have strong opinions).

RAYNYSC has indeed acted as if he WERE an authority, (something I have never claimed to be, lol) in order to deceive people as to the nature of Tanglang. Though when called on it, he immediately attempts to retract his statements (when I have been proven wrong, I LEARN).

Shifu Pel does not engage in attacks against anyone, that I know of. He has strong convictions concerning the nature of Tanglang and one must be ready for this when discussing things. (The same can be said for many of us).

RAYNYSC has and does engage in personal attacks, misrepresenting the truth and fabricating research in order to attack the WHF line in general.

This is my opinion of RAYNYSC and Shifu Pel.

My opinion of Cha Kuen and Mighty B:

For Cha Kuen and Mighty B to take the clearly farcical and sarcastic comments of RAYNYSC and try use them to make a statement about me says a great deal more about them than it does me. And, if all that they can say is that I am not the "most knowledgeable" about Tanglang, I can, and did, laugh. It was like a clown, (RAYNYSC), doing something funny and here were two people actually taking the joke as fact and trying to run with it. Gentlemen, when you follow someone's lead, be certain that, in many ways you link your reputation to theirs, in this case more so. It was a poor choice. I hope you can see that now.

Thanks RAYNYSC for affording me this opportunity.

Sincerely,

Steve Cottrell, (not the leading authority on Tanglang, LOL!!)

[mantis108]

I believe in the good nature of people in general. So when a person share sensible information with me or with the public, I would think that person being generous rather than think of that person being self promoting. But then is self promotion really a bad thing?

Sifu Cotrell has impressed me as geniuely kind and sincerely helpful person. Also very humble which can be seen in his usually carefully worded posts. If there is one fault about him, he's just too darn polite! (sorry Steve, can't help it) :) . I would like to see a little spark, a little colorful Sifu Cotrell online sometimes. LOL...

Jon Funk, although I have only briefly met him a long time ago, is a slightly different story. I don't doubt him having the good intention of promoting PM yet at the same time he is equally interested in selling you his approach to 7 Star PM. I don't find his approach agreeable but that doesn't make him bad. It is just different. His ability in reaching out to people is quite remarkable. For that, this is a man worth the attention. He deserves the recognition whether we like his work or not.

As for Shifu Pel, it could just be his entourage's doing in putting him in the spotlight. I have nothing personal against him but having a tall claim such as the single most knowledgeable exponent on Praying Mantis Kung Fu is a bit much. It does more to turn me off in listening to him then to pay attention to him.

Just a few thoughts...

Mantis108

[MightyB]

You didn't get my point. What I was saying is that it is pretty much impossible to be the "most knowledgable" or anything outside of your own line. Praying Mantis is too huge. It's actually a good thing because it pretty much means that you can never get bored with it because it's a life long commitment. Also, when looking at a style, don't stop with the people who right articles. There are others out there that don't write articles or lurk on forums. They will share... although they don't give their mantis to just anyone, even mantis practicioners. Now about you guys who write articles, you included Steve, thank you. I do respect the thorough research that all of you have done and have been doing. If you've read some of my past posts, I have referred people to your website because your terminology page is well written and thorough. I always place the disclaimor that I don't often agree with you, or anybody in mantis or martial arts in general. I'm just that way. Don't take my cynisism too seriously.

[MantisifuFW]

You didn't get my point.

Quite the contrary Mighty B, I understand your purpose completely and I illustrated it for all to see in my previous post.

However, your attempt to retreat from this now deserves to be answered in more detail:

1. Your initial post reference me, "small fish in a big pond" (your words in your title) states clearly what you wish to say about me to the people reading this message board. It was neither the topic under discussion nor was I even participating at this point. This action by you was pathetic opportunism and damages any pretense you might make now or in the future as not having a negative bias towards me. I, and anyone reading this, will know this about you.

2. You then listed in detail only Sifu Fogg's affiliates as examples of this larger community, (a shameless and clumsy attempt at promotion of your favored group). Isn't it funny that you try to accuse me of being self promoting, (as if that is negative and I would debate this), when you are clearly making such attempts on behalf of your own. Else why mention names at all or especially only of them. (And it is not because they are in Texas, Sifu John Cheng is in California, has been for years, but is in Sifu Fogg's line and so you promote him too). Such hypocracy!

You carry on in your last post inviting people especially to seek out those not in the magazines or on line participating in discussions, (again promoting indirectly those on your list, your hypocrisy continues...).

3. In your last response you answered me using the diminutive form of my first name as a title. As I have taught children's classes I know that this is the last stop before real name calling for most middle-schoolers, indicating clearly your negative bias towards me. This should convince even those naive persons online reading this that might hold out for this exchange being a misunderstanding of your position, thank you.

4. Incredibly you then tried to retreat from your previous posts, saying some half hearted positive things and ending it all with "don't take my cynicism too seriously". This is your way of saying, "Let me imply falsely to everyone on line that you hold yourself above other practitioners, attack you for such statements as if you had said them, promote my own favored group repeatedly while criticizing you for being self promoting, and do it all without you holding me to account".

I am sorry. The print media is not like a school yard argument. The inconsistencies in your statements and duplicity of purpose are clear for all to see. You have damaged your credibility and reputation for honest intent in this discussion.

Clearly, the sifu with whom you have been associated in the past had to have taught you better critical thinking and sense of honor than what you have displayed today. I take no pleasure in this but I must defend myself or be defined by such as you and that would mean I was being remiss in my own responsibilities.

I hope for more productive discussion in the future.

Steve Cottrell

[MightyB]

I'm helping to turn this forum into the lineage bashing forum that the Wing Chun one has become...

As I have taught children's classes I know that this is the last stop before real name calling

No, the next step is burping the alphabet or some other thing like that... And No, I won't revert to name calling. OK, I will revert to name calling, "yo mama" snaps, gross associations, rash generalizations, bad grammar and spelling, and just about anything else you can imagine. I've been doing it on this forum for a couple of years now.

Yes, I do have biasis- It's human nature- but I don't hold anything personal against you. Heck, I met you only once and really it wasn't long enough to form any opinions about you. I'm starting to form one now though. The people that I mentioned I mention for 1 reason--- I know that they are good, I know they know a ton about 7*--- way more than I'll ever care to know, but, they all have one thing in common, they don't write articles or anything else. Again, that was my point. I say don't stop writing and researching, it's good that people do that. But, I also say to people who read these things that there are a lot of people out there with the knowledge who don't write about it.

You carry on in your last post inviting people especially to seek out those not in the magazines or on line participating in discussions, (again promoting indirectly those on your list, your hypocrisy continues...).

No crap? So, when you research, do you just hang out with the other writers having tea parties? No, you go out and seek people who are more knowledgable than you. Do they write? No, if they did, you wouldn't have an article topic would you? Yes I do tell people to seek out people who are not in magazines or on line.

Your number 4 makes me out to be a strategist like Sun Tzu. I didn't really intend all that, but cool. I didn't know that I was so devious. My next big trick will be to get all you forum members to start sending me money.
----

On another note. Last night I met a 7* man who really knows his stuff. He's been teaching for a long time, yet he doesn't allow just anyone to call him Sifu-- not even his beginner students. He only allows dedicated students of his to call him "Sifu". I've never seen that before ever. Usually the term "sifu" is thrown around so much so that it's starting to lose its meaning. It's similar to my profession where anybody with a camera calls themselves a Director of Photography. The term DP used to carry a lot of weight, now it doesn't because, as a producer, when you hire a DP, unless you've worked with him before or have got a positive referral from someone you trust, you really don't know what you're getting.

[MantisifuFW]

I'm helping to turn this forum into the lineage bashing forum that the Wing Chun one has become

No, Mighty B, you are not. I have kept that from happening in this case. You took what you thought was an opportunity to make a negative statement about me and promote your own group at the same time (like the Wing Chun forum, perhaps). I did not allow it, made clear your duplicity and hypocrisy and you do not like it. Now you want out before you look any worse.

When I pointed out your resort to using the diminutive of my name as a childish insult, further pointing out to all your real nature and intent you said:


No, the next step is burping the alphabet or some other thing like that

Humor to deflect valid criticism...not bad but still ineffective. My analysis stands and you are shown to be what you are.

You said:


I met you only once and really it wasn't long enough to form any opinions about you. I'm starting to form one now though.

Ah, but on that basis you could list confidently those who know as much or more about Tanglang as I do. Interesting double standard! My initial conclusion about your hypocrisy and duplicity has again been substantiated. And yes, you should be forming an opinion about me now. That opinion should be that you should not attempt such things concerning me again.

You said:


Yes I do tell people to seek out people who are not in magazines or on line.

I had already pointed out the hypocrisy in this approach, that of criticizing those who write and share information as "self promoting" while promoting those who do not. You have no moral standing when you engage in the same activity that you criticize other for doing. I hope that you have learned your lesson in this regard too.


Your number 4 makes me out to be a strategist like Sun Tzu. I didn't really intend all that, but cool

My point is that your are not. Furthermore your sifu should have taught you better that this. You attempted a strategy, you failed.


Usually the term "sifu" is thrown around so much so that it's starting to lose its meaning.

Interesting and worthy of discussion on another thread. But if you were consistent you would have used the same informal and diminutive protocol for everyone that you have chosen to use with me. I want to see you meet a Chinese sifu and try to use a child's form of his name instead of Mr. ______ or Sifu_____. Of course you would not! Your attempt at being insulting towards me by using the diminutive or even my first name, since you admittedly don't know me at all, is clear.

In the final analysis, your retreat has failed too. And with it, everyone has seen your double standard for your chosen group, your duplicity, your vindictiveness and pettiness.

I am sorry for you and the embarrassment you are to your sifu.


Steve Cottrell

[MightyB]

I feel some tears coming on...

Steve, you've been reading Plato's rules of argument and rhetorical appeal again.

This isn't about me and you, I could care less about you.

The fact that you feel so personally threatoned by my statement about going out and seeking teachers who are quiet says quite a lot about you.

I'm not saying that people should seek out non-writers over writers, that's not the point. The point was that not all good sifu write in magazines or lurk on-line.

I stated names that I feel comfortable with referring people to because I know their lineage. That was why I wrote the side note about DPs and the referral process. That's how referrals and networking works.

Besides, in the end, all roads lead to Rome. It may take people a few minutes to understand this, but, if they study tong long diligently with an inquisitive mind, they will because it ain't such a big world when you go legit.
-----

How did this Troll Thread get so hijacked anyway?

Flame wars are fun, but they aren't all that productive.

[MightyB]

this statement sums up my point nicely:

Ah, but on that basis you could list confidently those who know as much or more about Tanglang as I do...

Thanks for saying it. That's the point. Not all good sifu write articles or lurk on-line.

[MantisifuFW]

This isn't about me and you, I could care less about you.

Incorrect and misleading again. You made it about me in your initial post. I responded. In the course of our discussion I have proven:

1. That you referred to me as a "small fish in a big pond" attempted to compare me to others even though, as you have stated, you hardly know me, in the midst of a thread which had nothing at all to do with me. Your pathetic opportunism and the fact that you do, in fact, dislike me deeply was clear to all. The fact that you admit you do not know me is the definition of ignorant prejudice of the worst kind. I am glad I know you now and that others do, too.

2. That you categorized my work, (the magazine articles written about my sifu, the sifu and competitions in China, {not one about me, by the way}, publishing Mantis Quarterly, traveling around the country and sharing information with other sifu), negatively as self promoting, while you shamelessly continue to promote those of your own line. I showed the clear double standard in this and your hypocrisy in this regard.


The fact that you feel so personally threatened by my statement about going out and seeking teachers who are quiet says quite a lot about you.

Weak attempt at changing the topic. I never said anything about seeking teachers. I do it all the time and have trained with the people you mentioned. Of Sifu Fogg and his line I have nothing negative to say. Your duplicity continues and all can see now that you are trying to find a way out. You began this by being insulting to me in the title of your post, continued by trying to promote your group and criticize me for my activities while promoting your own. Changing the topic is the least effective means of defense, it requires only that one stay on topic to defeat it. You lose.


The point was that not all good sifu write in magazines or lurk on-line.

No, your point was to diminish my standing or at least make an equivalency between me and the teachers you mentioned from your line (even though you admittedly don't know me) and promote your own group. Otherwise you would not have been insulting in your first post and childish in you second. Now you try to change the topic altogether in order to save yourself as your attempt has failed and you are being embarrassed by that failure.

I have already proven your lack of honesty, honor, and your hypocirsy, now your random attempts at defense are not even dignified.

Steve Cottrell

[-N-]

From time to time, martial artists would visit Sifu Lai at his store in San Francisco. On one occasion, a visitor challeged Sifu Lai to demonstrate his Praying Mantis speed. Sifu Lai preferred not to, and made an excuse that he needed to use the restroom. The visitor wouldn't take "no" for an answer and continued pressing.

With the visitor blocking the aisle to the restroom at the back of the store, Sifu Lai relented and told him to get ready. In one instantaneous motion, Sifu Lai attacked and dashed to the other side of his stunned challenger. The visitor apologized and acknowledged Sifu Lai's speed and skill. Sifu Lai replied, "oh no, I'm not very good at all. It was only because I needed to use the restroom very badly that I was able to move so quickly."

N.

[Canadian_nova]

Although i am new realtively new to 7* praying mantis kung fu, with only a year of training, I just felt that i needed to offer my two cents into this topic, in hopes to dispell some of the tension and hostility that has arrisen in this debate, that has turned into a pointless argument.
Although I have never met Mighty B, or Mr. Cottrell I am sure they are both great people, with a geniune interest in tong long kung fu, I have gotten a feeling of negative energy coming from both of them.
I have read this tread through multiple times before i posted, in an attempt to better understand what to say before i post. I do not wish to offend anyone in this post, and if i do so it is completly invountary.
To understand some of what i am going to say you must fremember if kung fu should teach us anything it HUMILITY.

Mr. Cottrell
You say Mighty B was making personal attacks against you, I do not think this is true.
You first claim that you refered to you as a 'small fish in a big pond' which you took to large offence. YES he did refere to you in this way. BUT REMEMBER in the large world of 7* Praying mantis we are all small fish when compared to the size of what praying mantis kung fu is today. I am a small fish, Mighty B is a small fish, every one of us practitioners are a small fish, (some are slightly bigger, but we are still small). Remember humility.
You always hear stories of great martial arts masters willing to avoid confrontation by saying that they 'arent that good' or 'arent that fast', when we all know they are. Why? Because they wish to avoid confrontation, and because they are HUMBLE.
Mr. Cottrell you read too much into the fist statement and took it as a personal insult. You made yourself look like you wished to be named a 'big fish' that you are one of the most important (if not THE most important) 7* practitioner in the world. No offence, because im sure you did not mean this. But remember humility, the world would be a better place if everyone was humble about their ablilities. Mighty B did not make this statement to insult you but made to refer to how praying mantis kung fu is so large that no individual can claim to be the most knowledgable individual, after all who could prove they are right? The Praying mantis community is just that, a Community. We all work together and learn from each other to ensure that the history, and traditions of praying manits kung fu carry on.

Secondy you said that when Cha Kuen and Mighty B said that they did not believe that you were the most knowledgable on 7* PM that you laughed. This gives the impression that you believe yourself to be the leading 7*PM practitioner. As i stated earlier true kung fu teaches humility. Remember no one can claim to be the most knowledgable, it would be impossilbe to determine. Besides they were simply stating their opinion, a right that they have, you have and i have. This is a public forum.
Even so most kung fu masters, after a statement that they were not the most knowledgable, would simply have agreed, and said something like "yes, i am not the greatest but i do know some stuff". HUMILITY
Because no matter how good you are there is always someone better.

Also Mr. Cottrell you claim that RAYNYSC and Mighty B made attacks and insults against you. I read the thread over and over, and i did not get the impression that they were making attacks against you. They were simply stating that they thought that you were not the only knowlegable 7* PM practitioner. In fact your comments in your first post were much more insulting than any previous post.

Mr. Cottrell you also say that Mighty B's use of your first name was an insult to you? How so? It is his free right to speech. He does not need to call you Sifu Cottrell, or Mr. Cottrell, etc.
Remember we are typing on a forum, sometimes it's easier just to type steve.

Another thing is that Mr. Cottrell you claim that Mighty B is self promoting when he only listed his lineage when talking about knowledgable practitioners. Go back to his post, you will see he also mentions the Chiu Luen line, the Lai line, Sifu Henry Chung, and Sigung Chung Ho Yin. He simply names the people form his line because they are his lineage so he knows those names off hand. He's not going to know names from every single lineage that there is. But the point is he DID bring them up.
You also seem to be annoyed at Mighty B's suggestion to seek out Sifu's that dont write in Magazines of forums. I dont know why because this is a GREAT idea. If anything this is the way people should be learning. It shows dedication, and a true willingness to learn. Remember how knowledgable a sifu is, isnt based on the number of articles he makes for a magazine or post he makes on a forum. After all after if you've already read one person's article in a magazine, talking to a different person for alternate points of view is always a good idea.

As for many of your other post Mr. Cottrell you seem to just attack Mighty B for his comments, and you read way too much into what he writes. Many of your comments you are pulling insults out of comments that contained none. No offence but you were looking for insults to defend your argument. Ill agree that Mighty B's posts are sometimes rude sounding but that is they way many people on forums type and they mean no offence by it. They simply type quickly and try to get to the point quickly because people have more important things to do they talk on a forum. This often leads to rude sounding comments even when someone is trying to be polite.

-----------

As for Mighty B, well simply put some of your statements do come off as rude. Not as insulting as Mr. Cottrell is making them sound but still rude. Remember this is a public forum and people do have the right to they're own opinions but we have to keep things civilized.
I hate to say it but I have been posting on forums for many years now, and this is one of the most un-civilized that ive been on. Which is completly unexpected considering that I would expect kung fu practitions to beable to show more politeness, constraint and HUMILITY.

Also Mighty B, alot of your post about your opions seem like your make direct, no argument allowed statements. If you would like my opinion (which you dont have to take), could you possilbe state that your opions are just that. Your opionion! Start your post off with something like "well in my opinion....." or something like that. It's a good reminder to everyone that they and you are entitled to their own opinion, and I have found i helps prevent alot of arguments and bashing.

-----------

I had a few other things but i forget them now after such a long post.1

Well despite my novel that i have written i hope that it will help dispell some tension in this tread. We are all 7* practitioners and we dont need any lineage bashing. We all need to learn from each other to spread the art. We dont need to sit hear arguing with each other.

Again if Mighty B or Mr. Cottrell feel insulted by anything i said, i appologize. I believe that this whole arguement was started by just bad misunderstandings, and i hoped I have helped relieved some tension.

If you do feel insulted by my post you can respond and insult me or yell at me, I dont really care. I will not likly post another reply on this tread as it will just work to increase the tension that i have tried to dispell.

I hope Mighty B and Mr. Cottrell can work out this misunderstanding and forgive and forget. So that we can instead work together to spread 7* Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Like I always say Kung fu is about learning and sharing. The last thing kung fu is about is fighting.

Best Wishes

[MightyB]

Well said Canadian_Nova.

I'll be sure to preface with IMHO when it's warranted--- my writing style is rude? I've often thought that my writing is witty and Hemingway-like. ;)

----

Well, this flame-war has been fun, but I'm ready for the next topic.

[RAYNYSC]

It seem's to me like you're a bit insecure there Mr. Cottrell & if that's not the case then I would say ( Your just to full of your self to accept the fact that you aren't the most knowledgeable one in the 7 star Mantis system.... ) :mad: lol

Great post there Nova....

Peace:D

[MantisifuFW]

Nova, I appreciate your opinion in this regard and will take it into consideration. As much travel and training under other sifu as I do on a regular basis there is no way that I could consider myself "the most knowledgable" in any respect. That two people can read things different ways, is certain and I allow for that.

As usual RAYNYSC, you have posed not one but two false conclusions as anyone who reads the above discussion can clearly see.

I am leaving this thread however as I see no productive value in continuing past this point.

Steve Cottrell

[RAYNYSC]

Now thats rich!....lol It seem's to me that it's you mr.cottrell who has the weakest attempt at a retreat as you like to put it then any one here.... In short you're hypercritical about anyone who dosen't see things your way.... ( So who's the clown now sheriff cottrell your best bet is to call deputy btl & close this thread as usual when ever someone disagree's with with your way of seeing things.... ) :mad:

Peace:D

[BeiTangLang]

Was just going to pm/email you Raync,....But a personal attack on my job performance is quite un-warranted. If you have a problem with my method of trying to maintain the forum, please feel free to contact Gene.
If for some reason it is I personaly that you have a problem with, my real name is Roy Baker & both my email & pm's are working in this forum: Please feel free to contact me.

Talk about a diversion of subjects at hand,...this post is full of them!

Best Wishes to all,
BTL

[Skarbromantis]

First..... MY word's represent ME! and what I stand for, MY word's in NO way represent MY SIFU! or my fellow brothers, this is how I feel. If I offend others, sorry, but after reading the whole thread, I felt like saying a couple of thing's....

Mr. Cottrell, you belittle yourself arguing on a message board, don't you have students to train?

I also have a question, when you train with someone that is not your Sifu, do you call them Mr....., after they block, do you say great block, Mr.......Nice kick, Mr.........., do you not call your student's by their first name?, Or is that OK, because their not on your level?

Do you have a brother, or sister do they call you Mr. Cottrell.......

IN MY OPINION.... I think your the one who acted like "a child in a kids class" you have shown, no honor, as you would like to say, maybe, "your Sifu didn't teach you", as you would like to say, that you don't go, jumping every time, your name is spoken!

"that I am not the "most knowledgeable" about Tanglang, I can, and did, laugh"

Ego?

I never say much on the board as I rather just ask a question or two, and NEVER get in the way of POLITICS but this was too much, as a Sifu, you have lost the respect I had for you, I am sure you are very skilled, and I respect your skill, but other then that, you are the one who has shown his true colors.

And last but not least....... "I want to see you meet a Chinese Sifu and try to use a child's form of his name instead of Mr. ______ or Sifu_____."

Your not Chinese!!!!

I'm with Mighty B on this!

Nova, all points very well said, please come back, as we don't want to scare off our fellow PM brothers.

BTL I though you would have locked this by now?

Skard1.............Sorry that's MR. Skard1 to you!!

[B.Tunks]

One thing to add...

I think you missed the point about the disrespect, the term used was:

'Stevie'

If we're all gonna get involved here maybe we should investigate a little closer.

[Laviathan]

I believe that Mr. Cottrell's words


that I am not the "most knowledgeable" about Tanglang, I can, and did, laugh

translates:

"DUH! Of course I'm not the most knowledgeable and I never pretended to be the most knowledgeable. What the hell are you talking about anyway?"

Just my two cents.

[ursa major]

I sent a link for this thread to himself, Master Kai Uwe Pel.
Thought it appropriate that he be invited.

I've found this thread to be a highly educational experience. Have you ?

UM.

[MantisifuFW]

All,

I had decided to leave this thread but the comments of those recently posting convinced me to return.

I have never engaged in such discourse before on a message board, as most of you will know. But I thought it important from two standpoints:

1. It was being presented that I considered myself a practitioner superior to others, something I find very offensive and potentially damaging to the very work I have been doing to bring Tanglang practitioners together. I have and continue to work, learn and train with those who know more than I. Perhaps because I am willing to share that information more freely with those wishing to know, some see me differently. But it is not the opinion I hold of myself.

2. It was being presented indirectly that it was wrong to promote Tanglang in the manner that I choose to pursue it. Again seeing this as damaging to the work that I am so passionate about. If I cannot promote Tanglang, how are such positive projects as the Quarterly to come about. The very existance of this forum we all use and the magazine that provides it is founded on public promotion of the art. It seems illogical that public forums exist and are used but somehow by my using them I am wrong for doing so.

I understand now that regardless of my response, from quiet ignoring of criticism to blunt confrontation, there will always be people on both sides of the issue. It seems like a simple enough conclusion but I have wondered for a long time about it. My response in the past to opposition or detractors has always been to work harder on my projects and devote my energy to my work. I can argue and debate but I have always chosen not to do so.
Mr. Scar1, you are quite correct. I have a lot to do. But I have always attempted to be accessible on public forums because I am able to share what I find out in my research and because I often learn a lot.

In this case too, I have learned. There are projects I have not done and even articles I have not published because I did not wish to seem "self promoting". I realize now that this opinion will be held regardless of what I do. I will consider these projects in a new light after this.

For those I have offended in this exchange, I am truly sorry but I felt it necessary. Mr. Scar1 and others who say they respect my skill, my skill is not that great, don't bother. Those who say we should leave this behind and go on doing Tanglang as we did before, I would like to, but I am not sure I will. There are important and positive lessons to be learned.

As Ursa Major said it has been an educational experience.

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

MantisifuFW,

I heard once that "20 % of people will like you no matter what you do, 20 % of people will dislike you no matter what you do and the remaining 60% are up for grabs". When it comes to public forums I find it useful to remind myself of this from time to time.

I, as well as many others, greatly respect the work you are doing in and for the PM community. I hope the discourse on this thread has not blunted your desire to continue in that work.

Regards,
UM.

[Skarbromantis]

It has, been a learning experience.... .for yourself ....I hope!

And B. Trunks I did take that into consideration, so what, my name is Daniel, people call me Danny, my brothers name is James, people call him Jimmy all the time, his name is Steve, B called him Stevie... so what?... do you think Stevie Wonder is an insult to his real name Steve, give me a break! do we flip out over it? ....NO

It just kill's me that MR. Cottrell has the nerve on a public board, to call someone out regarding they way they addressed him, who the hell are you, is what I felt like saying!

To expect other's who are not your students, friends, associate's, to address you with honor is a joke, why because this is a Kung FU board, please!

My name is Skard1, Mr.Cottrell called me... Scar1, do I care.... NO.

And yes I do respect, your skill, as I know that my skill level is not as developed as yours, that's about it.

And have the curtesy to respond to my QUESTIONS next time, don't dance around them!]

Skard1.....Feel free to call me Skardi.

[MantisifuFW]

Skard1,

It was not my intent to ignore your questions, I took them as rhetorical and illustrative of the point you were trying to make.

As for how I treat people's names:

Anyone who has had interaction with me knows that I do indeed address them as Mr. _______ or if they teach Gongfu as Sifu or Shifu ________ until they give me permission to use their first name which, over time, many do. In my school I do not presume even this and ask them how they would like to be addressed, how they would like their name written on notices, etc. If they say I should address them by a nickname or diminutive form of their name, I then use that.

In each case, if they give me permission to be more familar in address, I thank them for granting the informality.

I do not expect to be addressed by any honorific or title. Even in my school people may address me by my name and some do. I teach Gongfu, I do not need to be called Sifu for this to be a fact.

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Skard1,

I have considered your post seriously as I do all that are critical of me. (Hence my involvement in the earlier debate). You mainly seem concerned with my analysis of the use of the diminutive form of my name. Let me answer your statements concerning that also.

The use of the diminutive form of someone's name, in and of itself is not necessarily offensive. However, and especially when in the course of debate, one moves from, for example, formal address, to first name, to diminutive, it can be. This is not uncommon as a debating tactic and in this case I took it as such and that it was intended to be offensive. This is why I pointed it out. In fact, I never considered that in the context of the debate it could be read any other way. You have, by your criticism, afforded me the opportunity to clarify my position.

If you take it differently then that is your opinion but I wanted you to know why I responded as I did. It is not from some demand that people address me beyond what courtesy or level of familiarity they are comfortable expressing. I would not want you disagreeing with me for the wrong reasons.

We are each entitled and I respect your right to hold your interpretation. I hope you will respect my right to hold to mine.


Steve Cottrell

[Skarbromantis]

"You mainly seem concerned with my analysis of the use of the diminutive form of my name. Let me answer your statements concerning that also. "

Show me where I asked a question that warrants this response.......

"The use of the diminutive form of someone's name, in and of itself is not necessarily offensive. However, and especially when in the course of debate, one moves from, for example, formal address, to first name, to diminutive, it can be. This is not uncommon as a debating tactic and in this case I took it as such and that it was intended to be offensive. This is why I pointed it out. In fact, I never considered that in the context of the debate it could be read any other way. You have, by your criticism, afforded me the opportunity to clarify my position."

???


Are you answering a question that I never asked, or trying to educate me over a forum, you are not telling me anything I don't know!

The question I asked was answered in your last post, have I posted another question....so what are you answering"?

My point still stand's instead of just, letting it slide you had to make a big deal about it, >YOU STILL ARE< slow down, your lucky people don't call you worse, now stop trying to address this, and drop it, I have, unless, you would like flame war, like you have never seen?

"We are each entitled and I respect your right to hold your interpretation. I hope you will respect my right to hold to mine.

Yeah and mine is that you came off as an ass, don't try to change it.

Thank you and have a good day!

Skard1

[BeiTangLang]

K guys,....much 2 much.
Please just agree to disagree & lets move on please.

[Skarbromantis]

BTL I know that this is your Sifu, but, if it was any other thread you would have closed it by now, I have seen you close threads for less, now stop fronting and close this thread, as I can only see it getting worse.

Skard1

[MantisifuFW]

In my first post I answered your question. In the second, I answered your criticism.

I am finished with this thread. We will have to agree to disagree.

Steve Cottrell

[BeiTangLang]

K,....My leaving this thread open had nothing to do with Sifu Cottrell being my Sifu. It had to do with me getting chewed upon because I closed similar threads before.
Now,...as you can see from the results of my leaving it open, nothing good came from it at all.

So, do you guys want me to leave threads open for flame wars, or do you want me to moderate the forum as I have in the past?
I personaly preffer keeping our Northern Praying Mantis Board "extinguished" if you will, but as I have said before I will do as the membership wishes. I will post a new thread with this topic for everyone to respond to as I am locking this thread down.

Best Wishes to you all,
~BTL