TCM, MD, L.A.C Sandal!

[cha kuen]

I heard that for MD's they only have to take 200-300 hours of classes to be able to practice Acupuncture. This is a scandal and also not fair because we have to go to school for 3-4 years and learn a ton of herbolgy among other things, while they only need to take 200 hours?

That's wack. The system of medicine is different, they need a lot more than that.

I was talking to my teacher today and he said,

"Yeah that's true. Because MD's rule the world. If they could get rid of all of us, they would in a second. They realize that we're starting to take some of their patients away so some of them go learn acupuncture for 200 hours and they say, "oh you want acupuncture?> HEy I know acupunture too!"

And in the mean time, they keep pushing those perscriptions. It takes 4 years to get good at something like this, not 200 hours"


That's a straight insult that they can get licensed in 200 hours.

[Repulsive Monkey]

This is very unfortunate, thankfully in the UK they are soon thinking of all those who don't spend 3-6 years studying under a registered college, AND getting a practioners diploma/degree, are unable to call themselves acupuncturists. So, and I trully do pray for this, Doctors of western medicine won't even be able to officially say that they even practice acpuncture, justbecause they went on an intensive months worth of half-arsed training under the guidance of other western doctors on the top 20 points to use.
I do hope this action spreads around the wolrd and allows proper respect to be returned back to the TCM doctors/practitioners where it rightly belongs.

[Former castleva]

I do not know how many do actually bother to learn (well in the states,certain ppl are into this type of stuff and thus courses are offered)

"I heard that for MD's they only have to take 200-300 hours of classes to be able to practice Acupuncture. This is a scandal and also not fair because we have to go to school for 3-4 years and learn a ton of herbolgy among other things, while they only need to take 200 hours?"
Around here at least,it takes 6-7 years to become a doctor,provided that one can.
Practicing tcm or related therapy for your whole life will never make you one.
When it comes to a scandal,we´ll see what happens.

"That's wack. The system of medicine is different, they need a lot more than that.

I was talking to my teacher today and he said,

"Yeah that's true. Because MD's rule the world. If they could get rid of all of us, they would in a second. They realize that we're starting to take some of their patients away so some of them go learn acupuncture for 200 hours and they say, "oh you want acupuncture?> HEy I know acupunture too!"
I believe a strong tactic to keep them from taking patients away is well-established education.

And in the mean time, they keep pushing those perscriptions. It takes 4 years to get good at something like this, not 200 hours"


"That's a straight insult that they can get licensed in 200 hours."
I strongly believe it can be insulting that a person can become a "doctor" or a "therapist" of some unproven sort with inferior training and happily eat resources,confused patients,make promises,take their money and better yet,all this in the greatest of peace.

I encourage you to read this article;
http://www.acsh.org/forum/features/quackery.html
It offers some insight into this thing.
Further reading;
http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/1103/chimed.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/0903/chinesemed.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/0903/quackupuncture.html
http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/1102/acu.html

For a laugh;
http://www.acsh.org/publications/priorities/0904/letters0904.html


Combat goes on.

[cha kuen]

TCM unproven?

I can prove it to you right now. Let's go sit in an acunpunture office and take note of who comes in and listen to them talk when their treatment is done.

They come in hurt. THey go out feeling a lot better.
If you want all that clinical proof I suggest you look through "The web that has no weaver" and you'll find plenty of studies that were done in the US and china (western doctors in china testing tcm), and find sources that you can look it up.


Former, my friend. Sooner or later in your medical career, you're gonna run into one of us and realize that maybe, just maybe, we got a ton to offer.

[cha kuen]

Former,

Like I said, you read the weirdest stuff. Go look at the December 2002 issue of TIME MAGAZINE, a well trusted magazine and you'll have a great stories, unbiased, about TCM.

Or you can keep reading those weird ones and things like "The suicidal man's view on a positive lifestyle" to get your "info"

If i get run over and I need my lung put back in, I'll go see an MD. For everything lesss serious, TCM is the way.

[Repulsive Monkey]

"...Around here at least,it takes 6-7 years to become a doctor,provided that one can.
Practicing tcm or related therapy for your whole life will never make you one.
When it comes to a scandal,we´ll see what happens...."

Strangely enough practising Western medicine all your life will never make you a Doctor of TCM, what are you saying here? Are you that foolish to believe that one is better than the other?? Pleeease.


I like the way how all your sources come from the same website too. Very novel, and so broad a net you cast!!

The legitimacy of Acpunture IS/HAS been proven. Unfortunately time and time again it all comes back to bored and frankly boring obstacle of one model of medicine trying to look at another model od medicine through their own model. Again it's like trying to ask someone who exclusively speaks German to interpret an exclusively Sanskrit text just by reading it alone. How on earth can you test validity from the outside? This is what infuriates me with Western Doctors who bang on about the illegitimacy of Chinese Medicine. Why is it that in China a lot of Traditional Chinese Medicine hospitals and Universities do not labour this outdated and frankly egotistical idea???

I'll leave you with a quote by the genius Mark E Smith :

"Scientists and their blooody childish reading habits"

Believe me he knows incompetence when he sees it!!

[Former castleva]

"I like the way how all your sources come from the same website too. Very novel, and so broad a net you cast!!"
In this thread,I used the resources of "American council on Science and Health".In some of my other threads,I have used different sources.

"Strangely enough practising Western medicine all your life will never make you a Doctor of TCM, what are you saying here? Are you that foolish to believe that one is better than the other?? Pleeease."
It is true that to become a doctor of universal medicine hardly makes one a doctor of Chinese med. and vice versa.
The point is that you want to learn valid medical science to become a real,legal,qualified professional and properly diagnose and treat people based not on concepts of Chinese religion.
When it comes to your question,then I think I would have to go "yes".

"Why is it that in China a lot of Traditional Chinese Medicine hospitals and Universities do not labour this outdated and frankly egotistical idea??? "
I think about half of Chinese medical care is conventional.
Difficulties can be seen in how they managed to keep SARS profile low for possibly a bit too long.
Country is still relatively primitive to some degree.If you looked at those articles that I posted,you can notice that Chinese themselves have been skeptical of tcm.

" "Scientists and their blooody childish reading habits" "
Translation service:Scientists and their intolerance of fantasy,makes me sick.

"Like I said, you read the weirdest stuff. Go look at the December 2002 issue of TIME MAGAZINE, a well trusted magazine and you'll have a great stories, unbiased, about TCM."
I´ve been pulling my punches a bit.I could show a lot more less than promising data.

"Or you can keep reading those weird ones and things like "The suicidal man's view on a positive lifestyle" to get your "info""
;) Thanks,that was actually a good one.

"If you want all that clinical proof I suggest you look through "The web that has no weaver" and you'll find plenty of studies that were done in the US and china (western doctors in china testing tcm), and find sources that you can look it up. "
Considering that the "proof" was coming from a practitioner of-,I know what it is going to consist of.
What further contradicts any study is the fact that since there is no rational mechanism offered for functionality,it is up to guessing whether it worked or the same old placebo (definitely no evidence for something else so far,in those cases)
I´m saying this just to show that all this skepticism does not grow out of pure "racism" towards something,the best we can do is offer these explanations for related incidents since that is all there seems to be to it,not out of hate or desire to mock something different.
My personal suggestion,in order to establish a theoretical model of function for tcm is to let go of mystical concepts and replace them with scientific ones (this would result in either total collapse,partial collapse or we might find something interesting,possibly) probably some parts would need to be removed.Trough this process,the medicine could become "conventional" if it turns out to have what it takes (but not necessarily have to lose itself)
This is,still,the best move towards the right direction that I have seen so far (if it just was adopted)
http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/neuro2.htm

[looking_up]

Acupuncture has been shown to work on animals. I don't know what sort of studies have been done, but people are not making up stories. How does the placebo effect explain this? I'm curious.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by looking_up
Acupuncture has been shown to work on animals. I don't know what sort of studies have been done, but people are not making up stories. How does the placebo effect explain this? I'm curious.

I own a dog that's a member of a breed susceptible to bloat and, as a potential result, gastric torsion. Over 4.5 years, she's begun to bloat several times (primarily evidenced by crazed licking of everything in sight).

I have two steps I use to "treat" her. If she's really upset, GasX works like magic. However, if it's a mild version, I'll usually shower her with attention and speak to her in a soothing voice. More often than not, it does the trick.

Is it a placebo effect? Not exactly. Is it fundamentally similar? Definitely. Could her discomfort simply be transitory and I could've done nothing? Definitely.

Would this phenomenon be any different for horses? I can't see any reason why not.

[cha kuen]

Former,

You are so closed minded about TCM, it's a waste of your briancells to even post about it.

Western med's biggest nightmare is lowerback pain, neck pain, and carpal tunnel.

Anyways, the point of the post is that MD's shouldn't be able to be certified to practice TCM wtih only 200 hours. That's wack.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by cha kuen
Former,

You are so closed minded about TCM, it's a waste of your briancells to even post about it.


It appears he has some to spare. OTOH, y'all might want to be careful.

Easily as constructive as your comment.



Western med's biggest nightmare is lowerback pain, neck pain, and carpal tunnel.


In general, I agree chronic ailments aren't well-served by Western medicine.

Where we differ? I suspect the level of service they receive from TCM ain't that much better. Or, perhaps more accurately, I expect them to show their efficacy in something approximating an accepted manner. This ain't a small village in China and I ain't Chinese.



Anyways, the point of the post is that MD's shouldn't be able to be certified to practice TCM wtih only 200 hours. That's wack. [/B]

In my state, to become a licensed acupuncturist, you need to pass a test called an NCCAOM. Herbalists, OTOH, don't have any licensing whatsoever.

Looking at the state requirements (Acupuncture Association of Washington), two hundred hours for people who already have completed medical school and a residency appears adequate. Without no medical training whatsoeverl, it requires:

450 hours of training in western science (assuming those are actual hours *not* credit hours in a university sense; anatomy, physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, pathology, western clinical sciences, hygiene, and cardio-pulmonary resuscitation)

750 hours of acupuncture training (fundamental principles, diagnosis, pathology, therapeutics, meridians & points, and acupuncture technique including electroacupuncture)

100 hours of clinical observation and 290 hours of supervised practice

[cha kuen]

Actually TCM is awesome from chronic things, without expensive surgery either.

[Former castleva]

"Acupuncture has been shown to work on animals. I don't know what sort of studies have been done, but people are not making up stories. How does the placebo effect explain this? I'm curious."
Do read "Skeptics on TCM".
Fragbot´s anecdote offers some insight too.
+http://www.acsh.org/publications/pr...s/1102/acu.html already pointed out.
Additionally,neuroendocrinological consequences of stimulation could very well be expected to be similar (as actually shown previously) just without those exceptions.

Additionally read this for further understanding;
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altbelief.html

"Actually TCM is awesome from chronic things"
http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/techwrapper.jsp?PID=1051-250&CID=1051-123102D

Highly recommended; http://www.acupuncture911.com/

Food for thought:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11128820&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3905922&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=769630&dopt=Abstract

Interesting information from different sources;
http://www.brainland.com/indiv_news.cfm?ID=205
http://asthma.about.com/library/weekly/aa080299.htm
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/33/1/186
http://whyquit.com/whyquit/A_Acup.html
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/wkstone/webkeystone.py?Profile=ABarticles/search_whole_review.prof&ReviewID=217&UserID=biz_aama

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0984/5_121/87103189/p5/article.jhtml?term=acupuncture

[looking_up]

Former,

Thanks for the thorough reply.

So, are you really a Depressed Neuroscientist?

Why the obsession...er, heavy interest in disproving TCM? Did a
chinaman kill yo' daddy?

(poor attempt at humor) :D

I would agree that there need to be strict standards out there
for the practice of TCM - so that the quacks don't ruin it for the
people that know what they are doing and CAN ACTUALLY HELP
PEOPLE, which is the bottom line for serious health care workers.
Or should be.

:)

[Former castleva]

"Thanks for the thorough reply."
That´s pretty much allright.

"So, are you really a Depressed Neuroscientist?"
Well,I´m highly depressed to a depressing degree.
It would require some degree of arrogance to consider myself a neuroscientist from this position but when it comes to that and certain other fields,passion might just be there.

"Why the obsession...er, heavy interest in disproving TCM? Did a
chinaman kill yo' daddy? "
Nope,he´s still alive and kicking (not the bucket)
I like to debate some where I feel it may be beneficial,add educational purposes and it may even be of some value,maybe.

"(poor attempt at humor) "
It´s fine,I hardly blinked an eye.

"I would agree that there need to be strict standards out there
for the practice of TCM - so that the quacks don't ruin it for the
people that know what they are doing and CAN ACTUALLY HELP
PEOPLE, which is the bottom line for serious health care workers.
Or should be."
I agree with your agreement.

[cha kuen]

Former,

The websites you post are all weird to begin with!

quackery.com?

whynot.com?

acupunture911.com?

How come I dont' see any regular, credible magazines or sites? You're searching for ansers in the wrong places.

Like I said, "The suicidal person's outlook on a positive life"

[Former castleva]

"Like I said, "The suicidal person's outlook on a positive life""
I still do not get this.

"Former,

The websites you post are all weird to begin with!

quackery.com?

whynot.com?

acupunture911.com?

How come I dont' see any regular, credible magazines or sites? You're searching for ansers in the wrong places. "

I recently used resources from 11 sites.
They are probably better than pop magazines,what would you think? All studies are for real.
You seem to have a problem with the fact that they do not seem to support your beliefs,then they suddenly are not credible anymore (they become "weird")
You accuse me of being extremely close minded about tcm,yet I am able to read (I think we are talking about an ad hominem)
How close minded does one have to be to not see this?
There most certainly is a line between being close minded and critical.It may not be good to stick one´s head into sand but to keep rushing on head on without a thought may never lead to discoveries either.

[guohuen]

The guy at quackery that doesn't believe accupunture works is a retired psychiatrist:rolleyes: and his email doesn't work.

[cha kuen]

Looking at TCM from a western view is pointless.

[Pilgrim]

Looking at the Oregon school of Oriental Medicine's 2003-2004 Master of Oriental Medicine and Acupucture catalog the hours/credit breakdown is
First year 852 hours 60.25 credits
2nd year 1006.0 hours 71.01 credits
3rd year 1,210.0 hours 68.67 credits
total 3,116.0 hours 200.93 credits
I figure this is probably similar to most of the accredited schools out there. OCOM will also be the first school to get the docterate program going, this fall 2003. PCOM and another school should be getting their docterate programs going in the very near future also.
Anyone out there in internet land can get catalogs from all the acupuncture schools for free or for a very small price. School is very intense, lots of western medicine and lot more Chinese medicine.
Chinese medicine is fantastic medicine, with lots of advantages over allopathic medicine. The Wall Street Journal had a large article discussing the fact that herbal decoctions have had the best success treating and in prevention of SARS.
Preventative medicine is one of the strong points of Chinese medicine. Of course that is a wierd concept for Americans and other western nationalities - seeing a docter when you are not sick. Like I said health care has a lot to do with life style and personal decisions about what is appropriate for me.
No more from me
Pilgrim

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Pilgrim
Chinese medicine is fantastic medicine, with lots of advantages over allopathic medicine. The Wall Street Journal had a large article discussing the fact that herbal decoctions have had the best success treating and in prevention of SARS.


Since you obviously never read the article, I'll save everyone else the trouble of searching for it and post a link to the copyright violation:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Wall+Street+Journal+SARS+herbal&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=apvlbvka70kd9sj9g246d56b38m28viv3h%404ax.com&rnum=1

The article was a nicety, but its content barely supports its own headline much less your assertion "herbal decoctions have had the best success treating and in prevention [sic] of SARS."

[Former castleva]

SARS statement is absolutely ludicrious,safe as far as proof need not be shown.
It is very amusing considering that there is no basis for infectious/viral diseases down there.

Key points;
"Thus far, there is no clinical evidence that
cow urine extract, pounded almonds or ginger do any good against
stubborn viruses like the one that causes SARS. But as far as anyone
can tell, such treatments don't hurt either. "
Did not necessarily surprise."Won´t hurt" is not too promising considering what we are talking about here.
Maybe urine therapy could offer some answers. ;)

"I do believe some formulas might work in terms of relieving the
symptoms and may even enhance the body's defense system," says Cheng
Yung-chi, a professor of pharmacology at Yale University School of
Medicine. "As far as their direct antiviral properties are concerned,
that is questionable. But as long as they are handled with care, they
should be tried."
Based on belief,this idea is.
I wonder how this statement of "enchance the body´s defense system" will be backed up? Such scientific sounding statements are not too rare among quackery but even more unfounded.

"Doctors say such medicines haven't been used in Hong
Kong hospitals since before World War II, when they were banned by the
occupying Japanese as unscientific."
:)

"But many Chinese are more apt to listen to their grandmothers than
they are to health officials or scientists in white coats."
This is very sad.
Reminds me how so many Chinese women were recently rushing to hospitals to get their children delivered (even if it requires surgery) before astrologically "bad" year.

The most brutal form of reality check might be that of SARS being able to succesfully spread into rural regions where health care is probably wanting.Of course such a nightmare is not desirable in any respect.

I shall be adding that while we are likely to be unaware of cow urine´s possible therapeutic value,it does not necessary help that we cannot say how safe it is to combine it with conventional medication.

Thanks for posting the article (and for the replies too)

[azwingchun]

I didn't waste my time reading all the post, just kinda skimmed through, but I noticed a buzz word which always seems to come up when referring to alternative medicine and that is 'placebo'. I have asked this question before somewhere on this forum before with no response from anyone.

If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances. I think this term is thrown around way to often to describe something others don't understand. Just my .02 cents.

;)

[azwingchun]

To get back on topic of the thread, I recall a time when My TCM doctor was doing an alternative medicine show, where everyone had booths set up and you could get advice and treatments for free or a minimal fee. My TCM doctor (Dr. Chow) was set up next to an M.D. who also did acupucture (just a few hours of training), and had tried to pull people out of Dr. Chow's line and when the patient asked why she should go to her (the M.D.'s) booth, her response was 'because I am a doctor'.

To make a long story short, she wasn't able to help relieve this lady of her pain. Dr. Chow went over and used what he calls wrist and ankle acupuncture and the pain disappeared within a few minutes. The M.D. couldn't believe it and actually had him come and give a speech on acupunture to her and her M.D. friends.

[Former castleva]

"If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances. I think this term is thrown around way to often to describe something others don't understand. Just my .02 cents. "
At first,alternative medicine does not work that much as we know.Placebo only goes so far.
Is it that we do not understand or are we expected to accept logical fallacies? (Introduction to logical fallacies http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ )
What can occam´s razor tell us? (introducing OR http://www.skepdic.com/occam.html )
Your question assumes that so and so many get sick or die even though they get treatment,it´s true.It is also rather obvious that not always can you heal someone (did not strike too hard I´d think) One can only guess what the situation would be without those treatments,you must be aware of all the improvements they have brought.
It is completely useless to argue about such a thing,it is better to realize the facts.

"To get back on topic of the thread, I recall a time when My TCM doctor was doing an alternative medicine show, where everyone had booths set up and you could get advice and treatments for free or a minimal fee. My TCM doctor (Dr. Chow) was set up next to an M.D. who also did acupucture (just a few hours of training), and had tried to pull people out of Dr. Chow's line and when the patient asked why she should go to her (the M.D.'s) booth, her response was 'because I am a doctor'.

To make a long story short, she wasn't able to help relieve this lady of her pain. Dr. Chow went over and used what he calls wrist and ankle acupuncture and the pain disappeared within a few minutes. The M.D. couldn't believe it and actually had him come and give a speech on acupunture to her and her M.D. friends."

Anecdote...
It does not really manage to support an argument or two.

Non-falsifiable being.I once had a pet duck,my pet duck got sick and I took him to a vet.My pet duck became healthy and happy.
One day a snake-oil salesman approached him and my duck agressively burst out saying "QUACK!" "QUACK!" "QUACK!".

[cha kuen]

Former

You and your great source of websites.

skeptics.com
quakery.com


hehe

[Former castleva]

In my recent post,I used two sources to make my point (which neither of,was one of those)
However,I have used many sites as one can notice.

Those websites seem to be more yours than mine.
I do not recall having used quakery.com (nor would it help)
Neither do I think I have used skeptics.com

[fragbot]

Originally posted by azwingchun


If the placebo affect is to be the reason that alternative medicine works, then why do so many people still get sick when they get a flu shot, why do so many people still die when they are being treated for cancer by Western medicine? What happened to the placebo affect when treated by Western medicine? I would think if the placebo affect is so strong it would happen in both instances.


In the past, you've probably never received a response because the question is answerable.

In some sort of order:

1) why do some people get sick after they've gotten a flu shot?

Well, I suppose what you really meant to ask is: why do some people get the flu following a flu shot?

Most probable answer: a vaccine is formulated for common variations of the virus causing the flu (is this regional?). If you're exposed to another mutation of the virus, it offers little or no protection. Likewise, I'd expect people with compromised immune systems may still get the flu even with a shot. However, they often don't get as sick as they would otherwise and recover more quickly.

I don't have access to medline, but I suspect if you asked FC some detailed questions he'd post some excerpts from immunology research for you.

2) why do people still die when being treated for cancer with Western medicine?

Ummm, because cancer treatment isn't a 100% thing. Disingenuous question since any oncologist will explain survival rates in probabilistic terms. Thus, some cancers have poor long-term survival rates (it's my understanding stomach cancer's in this category) while others have much better long-term survival rates.

3) What happens to the placebo effect when treated with western medicine?

Ummm, it's still there and research on efficacy must control for its effect. This is why the methodology of research is so important and best practice is a double-blind studies that attempt to remove the patient and caregiver's biases from the "efficacy equation."

NOTE: I concede double-blind studies might not be appropriate in all areas. However, there are other methodologies that help account for the placebo effect as well.

[azwingchun]

I apologize that you didn't see what I was getting at. My statements were meant and staed as sarcasm. my point was that when people are healed by alternative medicine people always say that it must of or is the placebo affect. So with that said, why doesn't the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work......such as the flu shot.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where you are coming from when speaking of various flu strains and people who die from cancer. This isn't or wasn't my point, my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine? I am not speaking for all alternative medicine, by the way not all is good, I do realize this. Not to mention the many practitioners out there selling the so-called snake oil. But, with the few TCM doctors that I have had the pleasure to be around, their success rates are amazing. Not to mention many of these patients came to them as a last resort after Western medicine couldn't help. ;)

[fragbot]

Originally posted by azwingchun I apologize that you didn't see what I was getting at. My statements were meant and staed as sarcasm. my point was that when people are healed by alternative medicine people always say that it must of or is the placebo affect. So with that said, why doesn't the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work......such as the flu shot.




This isn't or wasn't my point, my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine?


Conceptually, the point you are arguing is absurd. Whether we're talking about TCM or Western medicine, the placebo effect is important. I've never seen a single person argue it's more "effective" for TCM. Instead, it's a simple realization that anecdotes of "it worked for me" are an awful tool for judging something's effectiveness. If your bias is to see it work, it will. Likewise, if the provider can influence you, many people will believe it worked. Hence the need for well-designed research to show it's effectiveness.



I am not speaking for all alternative medicine, by the way not all is good, I do realize this. Not to mention the many practitioners out there selling the so-called snake oil. But, with the few TCM doctors that I have had the pleasure to be around, their success rates are amazing. Not to mention many of these patients came to them as a last resort after Western medicine couldn't help. ;)

In my case, it's not a matter of snake-oil or not. It's the what-should-be trivial ability to make informed health care decisions. Decisions based on something approximating well-done research.

Look at this debate, much of the response is in the "it worked for me" camp. On a bulletin board focused on Chinese culture, there will be many people who self-select for bias *towards* TCM for various reasons. Instead of viewing the situation objectively and critically, I'd posit they're more likely than the population as a whole to see what they want to see--the genius of ancient Chinese wisdom*. Thus, they'll either "will" the malady away (AKA the power of belief or the placebo effect) or falsely attribute the source of their relief (eg, I took po chai pills and my stomach feels better. They must work.; ummm, maybe your stomach was just getting better anyway?)

Earlier in this thread, I posted a link to an article on (I think) an acupuncture site somewhere. If possible, read the article, paying close attention to the hierarchy of evidence for efficacy (or something like that). If you do this, do the following gedanken experiment:

if the labels on the hierarchies were inadvertently switched, what would your confidence level be in Western medicine?

*anyone remember the "we need more Calgon" commercials? Pure comedic genius.

[Former castleva]

"So with that said, why doesn't the placebo affect work with such things that reallt supposedly work......such as the flu shot."
Basically,such a treatment (injection,we have here as a prime example) is,and at the very least should be cabable of working beyond mere wish of it (thus the injection)
Just like a drug,whether you want it or not,active chemicals will most likely enter your bloodstream.
These can hardly be compared for real.
And as previously said and further explained by fragbot,vaccine (as an exam.) lurks there for a reason.

"my point is why does the placebo affect work much better with alternative medicine than with Western medicine? "
Placebo certainly affects western medicine,such things as health care provider´s relationship to patient and related things can make a difference (talk about psychosomatic effects)
A bit of a slow description on placebo effect http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html
The thing is,you cannot seriously trust that any faith in the world will remove an underlying pathology.
I´m not all too confident if I understand you right,but if you´re wondering why placebo effect pops up so often when dealing with alternative medicine,it is due to the fact that it may very well be it´s functioning mechanism.Such an effect is probably cabable of bringing some temporary pain relief (as often suggested in this context) while the disease/condition may take it´s natural course,and finally a hokey treatment may work trough counter-irritation and related effect.
These being brought down,this would indicate that the mechanism is something different than claimed to be.

[looking_up]

Brother (Former Castelva),

After suffering over 10 years of depression that basically ruined my life, I am finally feeling what it is like to be alive again after
two years of spotty zhan zhuang and 5 months of herb therapy. I was even able to quit a 10 year smoking habit ;) No thanks to all of the psychologists/psychiatrists that I had seen and paid tons of money to. The herbs made a huge difference. Helped clear up all sorts of ills I had, blood sugar problems, constant fatigue, etc.

My TCM doctor is 8th generation and was also trained in Western biomedical science. He is no witchdoctor.


Best,
LU

[Former castleva]

"After suffering over 10 years of depression that basically ruined my life, I am finally feeling what it is like to be alive again after
two years of spotty zhan zhuang and 5 months of herb therapy. I was even able to quit a 10 year smoking habit No thanks to all of the psychologists/psychiatrists that I had seen and paid tons of money to. The herbs made a huge difference. Helped clear up all sorts of ills I had, blood sugar problems, constant fatigue, etc."

At first,I´m sincerely glad to hear that you have survived depression.I realize it is important to get yourself going,become active to fight it by whatever your tools are.I´m battling depression on daily basis myself (which you were might very well have been aware of)
That being said,I mean no offense when I say that I´m again getting "force fed" with another appealing anecdote (considering the context)
:)

Thanks for posting.

Best wishes to you too.

[cha kuen]

Hey Former,

When you want to post and use the previous person's commnets, you might want to click on the "QUOTE" which is next to the FONT, when you post

That way it will make everything easier to read.

[looking_up]

"That being said,I mean no offense when I say that I´m again getting "force fed" with another appealing anecdote (considering the context)"

You don't have to eat if you don't want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn't have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Take it easy.

[Former castleva]

"When you want to post and use the previous person's commnets, you might want to click on the "QUOTE" which is next to the FONT, when you post

That way it will make everything easier to read."

Sorry.I kinda prefer it this way,out of learned habit.


"You don't have to eat if you don't want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn't have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Take it easy."

I see. :)
I´ll try taking it easy.

[cha kuen]

"You don't have to eat if you don't want to, but I wanted you to be aware that the dish is out there. I wish someone had suggested these things to me when I was younger so I didn't have to waste so much of my youth searching for real healing.

Doesnt' this look nice? hello? Use the "QUOTE" system!

[Jack Squat]

Former,

By your postings, I see why you are so depressed. You have bought into the AMA's BS......

Please try to keep an open mind. Here's another viewpoint:

In 1997, experts from various fields (including MD's, PhD's, and acupuncturists) reviewed the evidence and made what was called the National Institute of Health Consensus Statement on Acupuncture. It reads:

"There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy. Much of the evidence is on various pain problems. There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain. There are reasonalbe studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia. This suggests that acupuncture may have a more general effect on pain. However, there are also studies that do not find efficacy for acupuncture in pain".

Also, please note the RCT's are about 50 years old, while TCM is 4500 years old, and there has only been adequate funding sources for alternative medicine research in the last 4 or 5 years.

Note as well-why would some studies report acupuncture not having efficacy for pain control? I suggest that perhaps the wrong points were selected / the acupuncturists were not good (not all are!). It's just like psychology-there are behaviorists, Freudians, etc. Not every branch of psychology is effective in certain situations. Does that mean psychology doesn't work? I would like to see what modalities were used in all of the studies, including the study designs themselves.

I certainly don't think acupuncture is a cure-all, but it can help with many conditions. I have a degree in Psychology and know all about placebo effect, etc. Do you know that ALL medicine (including pharmocologal) is 30% placebo? In fact, a current study done at Harvard medical (and published everywhere-including the AARP and other "popular" magazines) proved that orthoscopic knee surgery had the same success rate as placebo surgery! Do those skeptic websites also attack Western medicine? How about the considerable amount of deaths each year caused by "mistakes" at hospitals and perscription drug interactions? Do you know that the statistics show that you have a greater chance of dying in a hospital due to a mistake than by dying in a car accident? How many deaths are caused each year by acupuncture?

Do you know that the World Health Organization has publically endorsed acupuncture for a laundry list of conditions? Are they deluded quacks as well?

My perspective is that the MD's fear acupuncture because of one thing...money. I would recommend that you do some serious research into the history of medicine in America, but you are depresed enough already......

On a personal note, have you sought out any treatment for your depression? There are many newer Rx's that are great for it, and they don't have as many side effects as the old ones. I'm not knocking Western medicine, I encourage you to get some help. Why continue to suffer? (But I believe that TCM can help as well).

And finally, I have been involved in clinical trials (in psychology) and I know how statistics (which are supposedly validators of scientific efficacy) can be skewed to support or disprove ones position. I've done it myself, therefore, I don't believe every study I read. What I do believe is what I see with my own eyes. If I know someone who gets relief from acupuncture (and I know many)and they tell me so, I believe it. When they say that they went to every MD and Chriopractor under the sun with no help, then Joe Acupuncturist helped, I believe it. Is it placebo? If it helps, who cares? These are real people with real feelings of pain. If acupuncture makes it go away, then it's real to me.


Take care.

Jack

[Former castleva]

"By your postings, I see why you are so depressed. You have bought into the AMA's BS......"
Possible ad hominem.


"There is clear evidence that needle acupuncture is efficacious for adult postoperative and chemotherapy nausea and vomiting and probably for the nausea of pregnancy. Much of the evidence is on various pain problems. There is evidence of efficacy for postoperative dental pain. There are reasonalbe studies (although sometimes only single studies) showing relief of pain with acupuncture on diverse pain conditions such as menstrual cramps, tennis elbow, and fibromyalgia. This suggests that acupuncture may have a more general effect on pain. However, there are also studies that do not find efficacy for acupuncture in pain"."


This study finds little help from acupuncture for tennis elbow;
http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/ab003527.htm

Acupuncture listed as unproven in terms of treating fibromyalgia;
http://www.systoc.com/CMEcourses/wolk/tsld056.htm

Data like this would seem to contradict these claims.


"Also, please note the RCT's are about 50 years old, while TCM is 4500 years old, and there has only been adequate funding sources for alternative medicine research in the last 4 or 5 years."
I have seen the argument to antiquity before.


"Do you know that the World Health Organization has publically endorsed acupuncture for a laundry list of conditions? Are they deluded quacks as well? "


Hard to say since I have not looked at that so much yet.
Unfortunately regulated does not mean valid.
Someone pointed out that tcm had been accepted in Canada as an example,but not the whole country agrees;
http://www.crhp.net/crhp.htm


"Note as well-why would some studies report acupuncture not having efficacy for pain control? I suggest that perhaps the wrong points were selected / the acupuncturists were not good (not all are!). It's just like psychology-there are behaviorists, Freudians, etc. Not every branch of psychology is effective in certain situations. Does that mean psychology doesn't work? I would like to see what modalities were used in all of the studies, including the study designs themselves."


Since you are that interested,you might want to be skeptical of those certain positive studies of few and far between.
It is reported that they are often poorly constructed.
When it comes to psychology btw,I prefer evolutionary psychology over many others but that´s another issue.
Is not it a bit odd to suggest that it was just bad practitioners or wrong points? Unlike those on opposing side,I have released a decent amount of material that talks for ineffective tcm/acupuncture,along with other concerning material.
In some cases,right points do give same results that wrong ones do,which can be that of none.
It is interesting to me that when it comes to positive trials,it can often be said that it helped this or this pain for a while but there are many negative trials.This would suggest that unlike fancy meridians and forces to be triggered (which obviously choose,according to studies,"when to go to work" so to speak)
it works trough placebo and counter-irritation (like a mosquito bite that you want to scratch,it won´t leave but it releases endorphins etc. and you feel it helped)

"I certainly don't think acupuncture is a cure-all, but it can help with many conditions. I have a degree in Psychology and know all about placebo effect, etc. Do you know that ALL medicine (including pharmocologal) is 30% placebo? In fact, a current study done at Harvard medical (and published everywhere-including the AARP and other "popular" magazines) proved that orthoscopic knee surgery had the same success rate as placebo surgery! Do those skeptic websites also attack Western medicine? How about the considerable amount of deaths each year caused by "mistakes" at hospitals and perscription drug interactions? Do you know that the statistics show that you have a greater chance of dying in a hospital due to a mistake than by dying in a car accident? How many deaths are caused each year by acupuncture?"

-I did not know pharmacological medicine is 30% placebo.Would you like to show me where I could check this out if possible?
-Skeptic sites do not attack western medicine as far as I know but rather antiscientific medicine which has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt.
-This medicine/death argument I have dealt with a couple of times already in total.But where do you go after a car accident if morgue is not your next stop? Where do you get treated at?
I know I have been quite close to possible death by suffocation but I am still typing,nobody is to ask why.
-All I know is acupuncture has caused a few deaths,among other complications.Herbs are known to have caused various problems and fatalities.
These I have shown earlier.
You can go to www.acupuncture911.com for some insight.
It is obvious that acupuncture or related therapy won´t directly cause as much undesired damage as real medicine may have caused.
What you should have thought about by now is that when a man´s best choise used to be acupuncture or a prayer,deaths and suffering from causes that we can now avoid or defeat much have been great.
A tiny needle on your skin or a remedy diluted into tap water,or a leaf may not represent great danger but neither will hoping that the condition goes away by itself.What both of these have in common is the fact that one may very well pass away on his/her own.
The prescription drug that you are given may&will cause side-effects and as you put it can be dangerous but the fact that there are side-effects serves to confirm the fact that it is potent enough to work beyond mere hope for the better.

My favourite take on "complementary" medicine I have witnessed so far (if it can ever be considered such) is darwinian medicine,I do not know what comes out of this method.


"On a personal note, have you sought out any treatment for your depression? There are many newer Rx's that are great for it, and they don't have as many side effects as the old ones. I'm not knocking Western medicine, I encourage you to get some help. Why continue to suffer? (But I believe that TCM can help as well)."
Technically I have,yes.
I´m yet to see a shred of evidence that tcm can help,I´ve seen some evidence that indicates it may not help.
Basically,psychiatry itself is still young but no more would I go looking for help from a branch of medicine which likes to link your intestines and related organs to your emotions (a fact)


"And finally, I have been involved in clinical trials (in psychology) and I know how statistics (which are supposedly validators of scientific efficacy) can be skewed to support or disprove ones position. I've done it myself, therefore, I don't believe every study I read. What I do believe is what I see with my own eyes. If I know someone who gets relief from acupuncture (and I know many)and they tell me so, I believe it. When they say that they went to every MD and Chriopractor under the sun with no help, then Joe Acupuncturist helped, I believe it. Is it placebo? If it helps, who cares? These are real people with real feelings of pain. If acupuncture makes it go away, then it's real to me.
"

Very little can I add to this.I have been given anecdotes for a time or two.
BTW,I would not necessarily go to a chiropractor for help.Recent studies link them to stroke risk and some of their methods and concepts are quackery.

[Jack Squat]

Former,

Thanks for the quick reply. I can see that you will be a tough one to convince. I went to the acupuncture911 site. Boy do they hate acupuncture! My question is this-who exactly sponsors this site. You like to quote info from them, but why do you trust them so much? Lets use REAL medical sites as the standard. How about JAMA (The Journal of the American Medical Association)? Every medical doctor in the US lives by and trusts the info presented in JAMA. Do a search in JAMA for acupuncture and see what you find. I already have, and there are plenty of respected, peer-reviewed medical studies proving the efficacy of acupuncture. If you can find some reason that JAMA would be a part of the acupuncture conspiracy, go to Medline or to the National Library of Medicine, and do searches there. The point is that in the true medical journals, scientific evidence is given precedence over clinical anecdotal experience (or sensationalistic quackery claims). The sites that you quote from are so incredibly biased, please just go to the true medical websites. If you do and still aren't convinced, then I'll leave you to your psychosis.....

Acupuncture911 looks to be based out of Canada. I cannot speak for Canada, but in the US, acupuncture is indeed regulated. The acupuncturists are required to use single-use disposable needles or must autoclave the needles if they are going to reuse them, as per OSHA standards. In reality, 99.9% of acupuncturists here use the single use disposable type, they are so cheap and freely accessable; it's a hassle to have to autoclave. The risk of contamination is basically null. (All insertion sites are cleaned prior to insertion to reduce the risk of any pathogen on the surface being carried inside the body by the needle.)

Acupuncture911 seems to have a major devotion to inspire fear in alternative medicine-they simply try to point out "horror stories" and knock the account of Rosenthols China experiences. I don't care about Rosenthols account of what he feels he saw in China in 1971- Give me the science-based Journal of the American Medical Association anyday.

Regarding my stats on the placebo effect-how about visiting the above referenced sites and find out for yourself? Something tells me that you won't believe me anyway.

Let me leave you with this, I am on a board of the largest medical hospital in my area. This grants me access to information that most do not have access to. I feel that Western (allopathic) medicine has it's merits as well as drawbacks, as do all types of medicine. I can and do use Western Medicine for SOME situations, I also use TCM as well. The future is in the integration of both.

Jack

[Jack Squat]

Former,

I forgot to ask- Why have you been "close to death by suffocation"?????

Jack

[Jack Squat]

Former,

I can't find any info on acupuncture911 as to who they are (who publishes or sponsors it) Why don't they tell anything about themselves? Is it just me and I can't find it? Can you help?

Jack

[Former castleva]

Point by point.

"I can't find any info on acupuncture911 as to who they are (who publishes or sponsors it) Why don't they tell anything about themselves? Is it just me and I can't find it? Can you help?"

Neither can I.It seems to me too that they are based on Canada.
However,this does not seem to be a central issue as far as their reports are legitimate.

"I forgot to ask- Why have you been "close to death by suffocation"?????"

By this I do mean that I have suffered a few severe asthma attacks.

"Thanks for the quick reply. I can see that you will be a tough one to convince. I went to the acupuncture911 site. Boy do they hate acupuncture! My question is this-who exactly sponsors this site. You like to quote info from them, but why do you trust them so much? Lets use REAL medical sites as the standard. "

Comparatively,I have been quoting them to a degree at best.
Additionally,I have used well over 10 sites (maybe closer to 20) to make my points (this includes many a link to sites that you might consider real by this logic)

"The point is that in the true medical journals, scientific evidence is given precedence over clinical anecdotal experience (or sensationalistic quackery claims). The sites that you quote from are so incredibly biased, please just go to the true medical websites. If you do and still aren't convinced, then I'll leave you to your psychosis....."

The thing is we do get this highly contradictory results.
You are right that there are studies that speak FOR questionable therapies.
Since such treatments cling to ancient beliefs it is hard to directly say whether they work or not,in order to build a convincing scientific basis for them,they would have to turn it into science (speak the same language)
What follows is that we get plenty of study that speaks for quackery and study that makes quackery seem as if it would work,considering where it comes from,it is not all that arrogant imo to posit that it may be due to reasons other than claimed to be,leaving many questions unanswered.
I would not resort to that psychosis statement if I were to argue.

"Regarding my stats on the placebo effect-how about visiting the above referenced sites and find out for yourself? Something tells me that you won't believe me anyway."

I might visit,yes.



"Let me leave you with this, I am on a board of the largest medical hospital in my area. This grants me access to information that most do not have access to. I feel that Western (allopathic) medicine has it's merits as well as drawbacks, as do all types of medicine. I can and do use Western Medicine for SOME situations, I also use TCM as well. The future is in the integration of both."

I do not see a need for integration but time will show.

[Jack Squat]

Former,

I apologize for the "psychosis" statement. Please accept.......It won't happen again.

In other news,
I guess my view on TCM can be summed up as this-

If you have a modality which can accurately predict changes in a disease pattern and it's use can indeed effect these changes, I can accept it as valid. To use a metaphor, it does not matter to me if you define a formation of clouds as "stratified" or as "the viel of the Gods". If you can accurately predict when it will rain using your system, and do so, I will view it as valid. The names are simply names (a rose is a rose....)

TCM does indeed "work", whether it's by biochemistry or "chi". Why does the label matter so much? The point is that it is a system of logic driven relationships that are manipulated in accordance with "rules" which define outcome probabilities. Would you accept it more if a man in a white lab coat and several initials after his name stated that it worked due to an explainable release of biochemicals such as norephinephrine? As far as I know, science has failed to measure that thing called "life" which separates animate matter form nonanimate matter, yet common sense tells me that things do "live".

I know you don't like anecdotal evidence, but I have witnessed with my own eyes this situation- A person was being needled for a certain condition. She had never had acupuncture before and knew nothing about it or it's basic theories. Yet she accurately described where she felt "something" moving up her arm and eventually into her head area. She described perfectly the path of her sensations which directly corresponded to the path of an acupuncture channel. This cannot be explained as nerve conduction, as there are no corresponding nerves which travel in that exact way. How is this explained?

And finally, one more point regarding animal studies. I have seen, after a distal point being stimulated, that other points along the channel "swell", allowing one to visually identify the channel pathway on horses. Again, this pathway has no corresponding anatomy to explain it, and there is no way placebo can explain it. Please don't insult my intelligence and say that I was "conned" or "tricked" by a quack, as I personally know the human patient anyway, and she could not have possibly known the pathway of the channel, yet she accurately described it to a "T". I am not some gullible dolt, I am trained in Western science (as much as human behavior can be considered a "science!"). The "qi", or "whatever" travels in pathways that are not yet know by Western science.

Jack

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
Former,

I apologize for the "psychosis" statement. Please accept.......It won't happen again.



You're on the wrong thread. Mental illness can be foundhere. (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21802)



In other news,
I guess my view on TCM can be summed up as this-

If you have a modality which can accurately predict changes in a disease pattern and it's use can indeed effect these changes, I can accept it as valid. To use a metaphor, it does not matter to me if you define a formation of clouds as "stratified" or as "the viel of the Gods". If you can accurately predict when it will rain using your system, and do so, I will view it as valid. The names are simply names (a rose is a rose....)


I don't think anyone would disagree with this statement. However, what's up with the people who get upset when asked for well-designed research to support the assertion of efficacy?

Yes, I know it's irrelevant, but I'll leave it anyway.



TCM does indeed "work", whether it's by biochemistry or "chi".


You're sure of this? I'd think someone trying to be accurate would say parts of TCM appear to be effective while other parts deserve to be dumped in the dustbin of history. Look at the thread I referenced, the efficacy of acupuncture (something I'm mostly convinced is reasonably effective for chronic pain) versus wondering if too much ejaculation is bad for your health.



I know you don't like anecdotal evidence, but I have witnessed with my own eyes this situation- A person was being needled for a certain condition. She had never had acupuncture before and knew nothing about it or it's basic theories. Yet she accurately described where she felt "something" moving up her arm and eventually into her head area. She described perfectly the path of her sensations which directly corresponded to the path of an acupuncture channel. This cannot be explained as nerve conduction, as there are no corresponding nerves which travel in that exact way. How is this explained?


I don't know how it's explained. Would you expect it to be widely reproducible under controlled conditions?

If it is/isn't, what would this mean?



The "qi", or "whatever" travels in pathways that are not yet know by Western science.


For the sake of a conversation, assume the previous statement is correct, would you speculate on how western science could "find" the passageways?

Just saying they're "unfindable" would pretty much ruin our discussion.

[Former castleva]

"I know you don't like anecdotal evidence, but I have witnessed with my own eyes this situation- A person was being needled for a certain condition. She had never had acupuncture before and knew nothing about it or it's basic theories. Yet she accurately described where she felt "something" moving up her arm and eventually into her head area. She described perfectly the path of her sensations which directly corresponded to the path of an acupuncture channel. This cannot be explained as nerve conduction, as there are no corresponding nerves which travel in that exact way. How is this explained?
"
Yes,I dislike anecdotal evidence.
It is true that there is no physiological or anatomical link between meridians and not even any real meridians.
I cannot really comment on such "rumors" but despite meridians etc. being hypotethical,there are certain points that can be traced to nerves (thus there could be a neurophysiological foundation) which of,I´ve seen nothing conclusive so far.


"And finally, one more point regarding animal studies. I have seen, after a distal point being stimulated, that other points along the channel "swell", allowing one to visually identify the channel pathway on horses. Again, this pathway has no corresponding anatomy to explain it, and there is no way placebo can explain it. Please don't insult my intelligence and say that I was "conned" or "tricked" by a quack, as I personally know the human patient anyway, and she could not have possibly known the pathway of the channel, yet she accurately described it to a "T". I am not some gullible dolt, I am trained in Western science (as much as human behavior can be considered a "science!"). The "qi", or "whatever" travels in pathways that are not yet know by Western science."

That contains possible arguments/fallacies to prejudicial language,pity and appeal to authority.

You´re giving me hard time here.More anecdotal information that I have little to say on.If interested,I´ve posted some negative trials of veterinary acupuncture.
No,I´m not trying to insult you in any way.
"Not known by Western science" is a fallacy.
The fact that these concepts are highly non-falsifiable demolishes it,it is not the same as "science cannot".
As fragbot has pointed out,how would we start studying this?
As you say yourself,anatomy&physiology knows as much about qi and meridians as it does know about soul (and the "burden of proof" may kick in)
In order for this to make some sense in terms of logic,it should start making some kind of predictions.Instead of that,one can evade them by saying that meridians are "invisible" and that "qi" is a life force that governs the universe.
After this,there have been some trials to track down such meridians just like trials which prove that needling the wrong points or perhaps not a point at all CAN bring similar results.
A complete collapse of logic is required to justify such a position imo.
When it comes to Western science as a method,there is another possible fallacy lying around here somewhere.
At least a few times during these debates I´ve had to remind of it´s non-existence.
Is feng shui science? Is tcm science? Is phrenology science? (not the medical application) Is personology a science?
By definition of it,these can be pseudoscience at best.
Yet half of these are Western,half Chinese.
If someone was to refer to "Western science" just a bit more in future,I´d call it the "argument to location".

[azwingchun]

I know this may mean nothing to a skeptic, but I found this kinda interesting http://www.mac-tcm.demon.co.uk/clinical%20inf.htm .

;)

[Jack Squat]

Fragbot,

Welcome to this thread.

If you want REAL (ie scientific") research on TCM, go to JAMA (The Journal of the American Medical Association) and do a search on acupuncture. You will find studies proving that acupuncture is efficacious for more than just pain.

Also, I would like to state that TCM includes acupuncture, tui na (massage), herbology, cupping, moxa, qigong, etc. Some aspects of TCM work better for certain conditions. I will be the first to admit that there are some quacks out there, but for the sake of our discussion, lets assume we are discussing legitimate TCM.

As far as the Jing thing, I agree that too much loss of Jing will have a negative consequence on health. The "Confusian doctrine of the mean" is the underlying concept in TCM, meaning too much of anything is bad (as is not enough). (For those die hard TCM people out there, I'm not saying that TCM is founded upon Confusianism- I know it's based on taoism). From a TCM perspective, the jing contains pure energy, and indeed, each ejaculation contains millions of sperm cells; millions of potential babies. That is alot of qi!!!!! From a Western approach, the ejaculate contains enzymes, protein, etc, in great concentration. The body must use resources to create this mixture, and there is only so much that can be created in a certain period of time. Again, I'm not saying that "if you do iron palm and ejaculate, you will die". That is nonsence. However, I am saying that you certainly must conserve this resource if you wish to maximize health. I can speak from personal experience and say that I can feel the difference IF and ONLY IF, I am doing lots of qigong/internal work. If I'm in a phase where I'm just doing external, I really don't notice too much difference (then again, I don't waste too much either). This discussion is on the wrong thread...

Back to the whole TCM works/doesn't work, is/isn't valid thing. Maybe I can quote from the movie Contact (no, I'm not some UFO watching weirdo). "Did you love your father? Then PROVE it". I quote this only to highlight that some things are difficult to prove (I have no idea how to prove the existance of the meridian pathways- I'll leave that to someone else). I don't mean to imply that TCM works by faith either (or simply by placebo). I have seen "Non-believers" get great results. I have also seen total believers get no results. Why? Human error on the side of the acupuncturist? Poor point selection? Poor needling techique? Poor selection of herbs? I don't know-there are so many variables. Thats why TCM is also hard to scientifically validate. There is a famous saying: "Same disease, different treatment, different disease, same treatment". This means that every person with a headache, or PMS, or common cold, etc doesn't get the same treatment. You see, in Western medicine, if a person has a runny nose and a fever, they all get the same perscription medication. In TCM, people with the same "Western disease" can exhibit different "patterns", which means that they get different treatments. Is it "wind heat" or "wind cold" or "phlegm heat", etc. A problem with some studies is that a MD will group 30 people together with similar Western symptoms and make them all get the same TCM treatment (everything has to be the same to insure causality/validity). But In TCM, if you treat "wind heat" like it's "wind cold", the symptoms will definitely get worse. (Note to Former: By your logic, this may help substantiate acupuncture/TCM, because the wrong treatment does produce "side effects").
Again, don't let primitive sounding names like "wind heat" distract you, a rose is a rose.....if the modality works, I don't care what you call it.

I hope this helps....

Jack

[Former castleva]

Mostly,that was just the same old propaganda what you might expect to hear from this location.
If you search enough,you can find slurry photos of Nessie and Yeti too.

[Former castleva]

Jack,
I´m afraid your last post adds very little to this discussion but thanks anyway.

You post material that you say belongs to another discussion and then open a can of ad hoc´s and tell about things that I´m already aware of.
That´s how I see it.

[azwingchun]

Man...that was quick! You must live on this forum? Kidding! ;)


Mostly,that was just the same old propaganda what you might expect to hear from this location.

I guess the samething just opposite response would come from a less bias group such as the government? LOL!

The one thing that I find disturbing about your belief and trust in medical science opposed to anything alternative, is the fact that you put all alternative medicine into the same group without any research into all that is out there. You seem to believe that things don't work as soon as there is a website or so-called study which says alternative medicine doesn't work. Even among Chinese medicine alone there are many different schools of thought. This isn't taking into mind that there are other cultural types of alternative medicine available that have been around possibly just as long.

I personally don't need to wait for a government to tell me that what I doing is ok. Just my opinion though. When medicine stops being a huge economical money making machine maybe then I will put some credit into their research. I know...I know, this sounds like the conspiracy stuff. But whatever! ;)

[azwingchun]

By the way, let's be for real. Unless you and I are standing in the middle of a science lab performing these experiments on all various forms of alternative treatments, you and I are just reading and putting 100% faith into what others say. And as someone with some knowledge and intelligence such as yourself may know, testing and experiment results can change or be completel dependant on the person performing them and by the results they expect. This brings me back to a Discovery Channel show, where they set up an experiment with two seperate groups. One was told that the experiment they were given wouldn't work or the outcome they expexted wasn't possible, then next group was told the opposite. Guess what? The group that was told that the experiment was possible (I can't remember the exact experiemnt......I know I lose points again), had a higher success rate of performing the outcome expected. Strange....unbelievable? I don't think so. ;)

[Former castleva]

"The one thing that I find disturbing about your belief and trust in medical science opposed to anything alternative, is the fact that you put all alternative medicine into the same group without any research into all that is out there. You seem to believe that things don't work as soon as there is a website or so-called study which says alternative medicine doesn't work. Even among Chinese medicine alone there are many different schools of thought. This isn't taking into mind that there are other cultural types of alternative medicine available that have been around possibly just as long."

May it come as a surprise but alternative medicine as they call it has been a great interest for me.
What follows is that I should have at least a trivial understanding of it´s forms.
The fallacy of actually even using the term of "alternative medicine" is that it assumes that there are legitimate "choises" to look for when in fact,there is only one form of real medicine.
There must be something questionable about it to be rated "alt." and the common ancestor uniting these branches is pseudoscience.


"I personally don't need to wait for a government to tell me that what I doing is ok. Just my opinion though. When medicine stops being a huge economical money making machine maybe then I will put some credit into their research. I know...I know, this sounds like the conspiracy stuff. But whatever! "

Quacks use these kinds of tactics,hinting at supposedly cold and dehumanizing medicine machine that sucks the life out of your "holistic" soul and does not treat the "cause" with it´s "artificial" methods. ;)


"Man...that was quick! You must live on this forum? Kidding! "

I´m observing you (too)

[azwingchun]

There must be something questionable about it to be rated "alt." and the common ancestor uniting these branches is pseudoscience.

Unfortunately, I believe this term is used to lightly, almost as a generic term for anything that doesn't meet the government standards of medicine. But you already know where I stand on that. LOL!!!!


I´m observing you (too)

STOP IT....YOUR SCARING ME!!!!!! ;)

[Former castleva]

"Unfortunately, I believe this term is used to lightly, almost as a generic term for anything that doesn't meet the govern ment standards of medicine. But you already know where I stand on that. LOL!"

Show me one branch that does not fit this description.



"STOP IT....YOUR SCARING ME!!!!!! "

Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!

[azwingchun]

Show me one branch that does not fit this description.

No, you are right.....that is my point. It doesn't seem to fit into the Western medicine point of view, at least to the outsider anyway. Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a place for Western medicine, but to totally say that other things don't work is ridiculous. Or to say it is only good for pain or something such as this is also ridiculous.

I think the funniest statements given by Western medicine is that alternative (term used very lightly) only gives false hope. This brings me to another story. There was a doctor several years ago who said that he had found the cure for Aids. His treatment was to circulate the blood from the body and heat it ( I believe to 150 degrees, though I could be wrong) and then cool it and circulate it back into the body. His results were supposedly amazing, and his patients showed no signs of the virus. Well, to make a long story short, the government shut him down. They said that he was giving false hope to his patients. He then went to Mexico (if memory serves) and through intervention of the US government was shut down again. False hope?!?!?!?!?! Let's just say this treatment was a sense of false hope and only added 2 more years of quality life to his patients and their families, but the virus returned later. I say this since I haven't seen an update on the patients who took on this type of treatment. Was it worth it? Who is the goveernment to say that this was a bad thing?

What is your opinion? ;)




Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!

I might be more scared if you weren't in Finland and myself in the states. LOL!!!!!

[Former castleva]

"No, you are right.....that is my point. It doesn't seem to fit into the Western medicine point of view, at least to the outsider anyway. Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a place for Western medicine, but to totally say that other things don't work is ridiculous. Or to say it is only good for pain or something such as this is also ridiculous."

Not much compelling evidence to state otherwise.


"I think the funniest statements given by Western medicine is that alternative (term used very lightly) only gives false hope. This brings me to another story. There was a doctor several years ago who said that he had found the cure for Aids. His treatment was to circulate the blood from the body and heat it ( I believe to 150 degrees, though I could be wrong) and then cool it and circulate it back into the body. His results were supposedly amazing, and his patients showed no signs of the virus. Well, to make a long story short, the government shut him down. They said that he was giving false hope to his patients. He then went to Mexico (if memory serves) and through intervention of the US government was shut down again. False hope?!?!?!?!?! Let's just say this treatment was a sense of false hope and only added 2 more years of quality life to his patients and their families, but the virus returned later. I say this since I haven't seen an update on the patients who took on this type of treatment. Was it worth it? Who is the goveernment to say that this was a bad thing?

What is your opinion?"

The man might have been a quack.What else should I say?

However,there has been and is serious research being done in order to fight AIDS (and HIV)
I feel there are some advancements to arrive.
To relate this a bit,if you can suggest some alternative form of treatment over conventional in treating AIDS as an example,I´m all eyes and years.



"I might be more scared if you weren't in Finland and myself in the states. "

How do you know...

[azwingchun]

To relate this a bit,if you can suggest some alternative form of treatment over conventional in treating AIDS as an example,I´m all eyes and years.

There's my point, this was obviously to alternative for the government. Would you not call this an alternative treatment? Or maybe not, since it was conducted by a Westren doctor?



What if some Chinese doctor would have performed this treatment or came up with the idea, would you have looked at it differently?


How do you know...

OK....I've just locked my doors and windows! LOL!!!!!!!!! ;)
The man might have been a quack.What else should I say?

Why would you say that? Maybe he was on to something? That statment is just a possible assumption.

[Former castleva]

"There's my point, this was obviously to alternative for the government. Would you not call this an alternative treatment? Or maybe not, since it was conducted by a Westren doctor?



What if some Chinese doctor would have performed this treatment or came up with the idea, would you have looked at it differently?"

All that I´ve heard so far seems to only confirm the fact that there was a failure,whether it was considered alt. or not.

I certainly would not diss a legitimate discovery because of someone´s ethnicity.
But if this means to say that if a practitioner of TCM would come up with a discovery,then I would check that out too but if it is made up of frog legs and mushroom powder then I might not,unless of course if it enchances the immune system. ;)

"Why would you say that? Maybe he was on to something? That statment is just a possible assumption."

As far as I understood,it was a failure.


"OK....I've just locked my doors and windows! LOL!!!!!!!!! "

Look for my message on your table...

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
If you want REAL (ie scientific") research on TCM, go to JAMA (The Journal of the American Medical Association) and do a search on acupuncture. You will find studies proving that acupuncture is efficacious for more than just pain.


They only have abstracts (I'm not forking over $9/article for full text), but some of the information is interesting.

The first two abstracts show acupuncture to be no more effective than a placebo for treatment of cocaine addiction or HIV-related neuropathy (not really sure what that is).

The next one appears to show some efficacy for reducing puking after chemo in women.

Most interesting to me was the one showing moxibustion reducing the probability of breech birth. I'd like to read that one. While I believe they've reported their results correctly, I didn't get a good answer for "compared to what." Judging from the abstract, moxa on the toenail point helps stimulate movement in utero and reduces the probability of breech birth. However, I'm curious why they didn't have a third group that ate, say, jalapeno peppers daily.

In other words, I wonder if it's simple irritation/stimulation that makes the baby move more often and the individual point or methodology doesn't matter.



Also, I would like to state that TCM includes acupuncture, tui na (massage), herbology, cupping, moxa, qigong, etc. Some aspects of TCM work better for certain conditions. I will be the first to admit that there are some quacks out there, but for the sake of our discussion, lets assume we are discussing legitimate TCM.


I wasn't talking about quacks. I'm talking more about identifying the portions of TCM that are effective beyond the placebo effect. I think it's unreasonable to believe that what's widely considered "legitimate TCM" all works.



As far as the Jing thing, I agree that too much loss of Jing will have a negative consequence on health. The "Confusian doctrine of the mean" is the underlying concept in TCM, meaning too much of anything is bad (as is not enough). (For those die hard TCM people out there, I'm not saying that TCM is founded upon Confusianism- I know it's based on taoism).


If you're saying moderation is better for your health than over-indulgence, obsession, or addiction, I'd say yeah. . .though that has little to do with TCM per se.




Back to the whole TCM works/doesn't work, is/isn't valid thing. Maybe I can quote from the movie Contact (no, I'm not some UFO watching weirdo). "Did you love your father? Then PROVE it".


IIRC, that was the priest trying to argue the existence of god.



I quote this only to highlight that some things are difficult to prove (I have no idea how to prove the existance of the meridian pathways- I'll leave that to someone else). I don't mean to imply that TCM works by faith either (or simply by placebo).


Proving the existence of god is dramatically different from "proving" (used in a loose manner) a particular set of treatments are (in)effective. One will always be in the realm of belief while the other isn't.

Furthermore, you've over-simplified and exaggerated my position. I don't think all TCM works solely because of placebo. I think some parts of it are effective. However, I think much of it doesn't work beyond the placebo or "irritation effect" and I believe it's important to understand what goes where.

[azwingchun]

All that I´ve heard so far seems to only confirm the fact that there was a failure,whether it was considered alt. or not.

Where do you find the failure part, because they told him so? This very same treatment is being tested and now used now by others on various other virus forms. So, my question is why is this? Just an honest question. ;)

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's there is a child who is diagnosed with polio, the doctor say this kid at best will be in crutches if not a wheelchair. The child is then treated with (again) so-called un-proven alternative medicine and his cured. What would be your statement to this situation?


Look for my message on your table...

LMAO!!!!!

[Jack Squat]

Fragbot,

Acupuncture results due to only irritation to an area? How does that turn a breach baby around? Why doesn't the irritation of a pierced ear or the rubbing of too tight underwear do the same thing?

Former,

Man, that last one hurt! I type all that and you find it useless???!!!! Ouch! I'm keeping my posts short now!!!!

On second thought, maybe the stimulation of the keys on my finger tips can help with my sore throat.....man I love this TCM placebo effect!

Jack

[Former castleva]

"Where do you find the failure part, because they told him so? This very same treatment is being tested and now used now by others on various other virus forms. So, my question is why is this? Just an honest question. "

Hmmmm.
I think one of us might have misread something.
I confess I know very little about the origins and nature of this story that you told,I did take it for granted that it is for real and commented on that.
Whether this treatment which I still do not know much of has been found effective for some other causes is another issue.
Can you give me some reference so I would learn more too?


"Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's there is a child who is diagnosed with polio, the doctor say this kid at best will be in crutches if not a wheelchair. The child is then treated with (again) so-called un-proven alternative medicine and his cured. What would be your statement to this situation?"

Never happened,will never happen...unless you provide evidence.
You´re just ridiculing alternative medicine for me.
These days we do have polio vaccines that many quacks might want to destroy.


"On second thought, maybe the stimulation of the keys on my finger tips can help with my sore throat.....man I love this TCM placebo effect!"

Ha-ha lol.
That was a good one I must admit.
You´re exposing their logic very well.
I´ve also read you can boost your will to learn by pressing one of your fingertips (triple-burner if I remember correctly)

"Man, that last one hurt! I type all that and you find it useless???!!!! Ouch! I'm keeping my posts short now!!!!"

I apologize.
I did not mean to come off rude,I swear.

[azwingchun]

Never happened,will never happen...unless you provide evidence.

Unfortunately, I don't have the documentation around this story since I haven't seen not one of my family members in almost 8 years nor do I have any contact with them. But that story actually happened to me. I won't go into details now about the treatment that I was given, by the way....the person who use the so-called alternative treatments to heal or treat this condition was my grandmother.

The treatment lasted a few years and was somewhat painful, this I do remember even as a very, very young child. If you would like to hear more I will e-mail you. But due to the skepticism around here I refuse to put up for all to read. I hope you understand? ;)

By the way, this is what started my journey into the martial arts, once things seemed to go right my family started me in martial arts at the age of 4 to strengthen my legs.

I don't expect as mentioned by me earlier, to change your mind, just maybe be a little more open-minded. ;)

[Former castleva]

"Unfortunately, I don't have the documentation around this story since I haven't seen not one of my family members in almost 8 years nor do I have any contact with them. But that story actually happened to me. I won't go into details now about the treatment that I was given, by the way....the person who use the so-called alternative treatments to heal or treat this condition was my grandmother.

The treatment lasted a few years and was somewhat painful, this I do remember even as a very, very young child. If you would like to hear more I will e-mail you. But due to the skepticism around here I refuse to put up for all to read. I hope you understand? "

Let´s say I respect your privacy and it´s all up to you whether you publish it or not.I recommend though that you would not add the smiley since it makes it sound like you´re kidding,which we won´t know.
Some people do really recover from seemingly terminal diseases,some say it´s due to god(s) or something else,I realize the small possibility that in some rare cases they die (illness) on their own (as in cancer etc.)

"I don't expect as mentioned by me earlier, to change your mind, just maybe be a little more open-minded. "

It´s good to be open-minded but not to the point where your brains fall out.
I hope to be able to classify myself somewhere in the middle.

[azwingchun]

Let´s say I respect your privacy and it´s all up to you whether you publish it or not.I recommend though that you would not add the smiley since it makes it sound like you´re kidding,which we won´t know.

Sorry, if the smiley face caused some confusion or questions in my honest statement. It is just a friendly jesture.


Some people do really recover from seemingly terminal diseases,some say it´s due to god(s) or something else,I realize the small possibility that in some rare cases they die (illness) on their own (as in cancer etc.)

You can believe as you will, but as mentioned I lived it, and if you new the condition I was in you would have to base that on your own beliefs, but I was healed one way or the other. The interesting thing is you seem more willing to believe people overcome some devastating illness naturally then with God(s) or something else as you stated. This isn't unusual for skeptics though! If something outside of Western medicine seems to help, then they seem to believe it was a natural thing and would have happened anyway. I actually find it humorous. So, it seems even if I was able to retrieve my medical records around this illness, you still wouldn't believe my recovery had anything to do nothing more than 'it was bound to happen on it's own, even without the treatments administered'. That's ok......I'll say it again, I'm not here to ask you for your brains to pop out.

Here it is again.......;) !

[azwingchun]

Have you heard of Andrew Weil (I believe this is his name)? He is located just south of here in Tucson, Arizona. He has in my opinion from what I have read and seen on TV, done a great job of combining alternative medicine and Western medicine together. In fact he claims they compliment each other very well. This is a man who has spent time investigating and traveling the world over to study various alternative medicines and treatments. Some of which he states completely contradict Western medicine but work very well. If you have, I would like to know your opinion on him. Do you think he is a quack as you would say? ;)

[Former castleva]

"You can believe as you will, but as mentioned I lived it, and if you new the condition I was in you would have to base that on your own beliefs, but I was healed one way or the other. The interesting thing is you seem more willing to believe people overcome some devastating illness naturally then with God(s) or something else as you stated. This isn't unusual for skeptics though! If something outside of Western medicine seems to help, then they seem to believe it was a natural thing and would have happened anyway. I actually find it humorous. So, it seems even if I was able to retrieve my medical records around this illness, you still wouldn't believe my recovery had anything to do nothing more than 'it was bound to happen on it's own, even without the treatments administered'. That's ok......I'll say it again, I'm not here to ask you for your brains to pop out."

Well you see when people say they were healed by god(s),a herbal supplement or blind faith for better,it may have helped them to fight their condition but the point is that to actually rely on that is not all that wise (as documented) and then they suffer,often.


"Have you heard of Andrew Weil (I believe this is his name)? He is located just south of here in Tucson, Arizona. He has in my opinion from what I have read and seen on TV, done a great job of combining alternative medicine and Western medicine together. In fact he claims they compliment each other very well. This is a man who has spent time investigating and traveling the world over to study various alternative medicines and treatments. Some of which he states completely contradict Western medicine but work very well. If you have, I would like to know your opinion on him. Do you think he is a quack as you would say? "

*gasp*
No,I have never heard of him,what follows is that I do not know about him.
I suggest you do not try this tactic on me.

[azwingchun]

I suggest you do not try this tactic on me.

No tactic intended. LOL!!!! Just curious, you might find him interesting. He shouldn't be too difficult to find with a search on the web.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
[B]Fragbot,

Acupuncture results due to only irritation to an area? How does that turn a breach baby around? Why doesn't the irritation of a pierced ear or the rubbing of too tight underwear do the same thing?


They might though it's not relevant to the purpose of this particular study since, presumably, these irritants would be reasonably equally distributed between the control and experimental groups.

In the abstract, they had women in the treated group and the control group count the number of times/day the baby moved (or something substantially similar). Overall, the women who'd been treated with moxibustion had 48 movements/day as opposed to 35 for those who weren't. Likewise, they had a lower rate of breach birth.

I'd argue this tells us very little about moxibustion per se, particularly in regards to the point near the big toe. If there were comparisons with other types of specific irritations (stimulations if you prefer), it'd be more definitive. In the past, I've been told spicy food leads to an active baby. That's why I chose jalapeno peppers as a specific example.

Was that a clear enough explanation?

Earlier in this thread, FC told a story about people measuring acupuncture's effects on rabbits. When they started to needle, whatever variable they were measuring went up. They took this as an indication of acupuncture's effect. However, the watcher then reached over and pinched the rabbit on the a** and, yep, the variable skyrocketed.

[Jack Squat]

Ok guys, I give up. You won't be swayed no matter what, so I'll stop trying. Honestly, what would it take for you to at least say "maybe"? No matter what study that you see, you will point out suspected flaws (why didn't the editors of JAMA toss out the study(s) is it wasn't valid? Maybe they don't know what they're doing?). I will leave you with a documented medical case study (yes I realize that one case study doesn't prove anything):

A 17 year old male was injured in a scuba accident. He busrts his sinuses in four places (bilateral frontal and ethmoid). He went to his PC (primary care) physician who referred him to a specialist (eyes, ears, nose, and throat specialist) to deal with the complications of the burst. After using imaging techniques, the specialists confirmed the bursts and simply told the patient "there is nothing I can do for your condition, except give you anti-biotics for the associated sinus infection. You will heal naturally in six months for the initial complaint, and it will take who-knows-how-long for the secondary complaint to heal. Come back and see me in 2 weeks so I can check on the infection". ( I don't want to waste my time typing details-email me if you want them).

The patient proceeded to see his acupuncturists, who treated him and by the time the patient went to the EENT (eyes, ears, nose, throat) specialist for his 2 week follow up, he was completely cured. This was quite shocking to the EENT, who stated that he had never seen anything like it.

Western-0, TCM-100

Is this anecdotal? Not if you are the 17 year old!!!!!

Jack

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
Ok guys, I give up. You won't be swayed no matter what, so I'll stop trying. Honestly, what would it take for you to at least say "maybe"? No matter what study that you see, you will point out suspected flaws (why didn't the editors of JAMA toss out the study(s) is it wasn't valid? Maybe they don't know what they're doing?). I will leave you with a documented medical case study (yes I realize that one case study doesn't prove anything):


Of course we'll point out suspected flaws. I would expect you to do the same. It's the only way to determine what the research is showing us.

One problem I've had throughout this discussion is some participants (FWIW, I don't include you in this category) apparent lack of anything resembling critical thinking skills. I have a vain hope part of this discussion (particularly, critiques of various research methodologies) might affect this.



A 17 year old male was injured in a scuba accident. He busrts his sinuses in four places (bilateral frontal and ethmoid). He went to his PC (primary care) physician who referred him to a specialist (eyes, ears, nose, and throat specialist) to deal with the complications of the burst. After using imaging techniques, the specialists confirmed the bursts and simply told the patient "there is nothing I can do for your condition, except give you anti-biotics for the associated sinus infection. You will heal naturally in six months for the initial complaint, and it will take who-knows-how-long for the secondary complaint to heal. Come back and see me in 2 weeks so I can check on the infection". ( I don't want to waste my time typing details-email me if you want them).

The patient proceeded to see his acupuncturists, who treated him and by the time the patient went to the EENT (eyes, ears, nose, throat) specialist for his 2 week follow up, he was completely cured. This was quite shocking to the EENT, who stated that he had never seen anything like it.


Would you expect this to be widely reproducible?

If it is, it's miracle medicine.

If not, it might be better viewed in the same light as spontaneous remission of cancer.

What will it take to say maybe? Well, I thought I already did for chronic pain. Anyhow, feel free to label me a chauvinist, but it wouldn't hurt to have a mechanism of healing grounded in something more measurable than qi.

Maybe you can explain something for me, if I were an advocate for TCM, I'd be clamoring for the most rigorous research into it available. Why? Because it would provide me immediate and long-term benefits. Instead, most advocates appear to revile the idea. Indulging me for a minute, why do you think this is?

[Jack Squat]

Fragbot,

I'll can't tell you why some TCM people don't really want research. I can only speak for myself. As I have stated before, there are some real yo-yo's out there (on both sides of the arguement). Maybe they feel that their crystals won't work if there are "negative vibrations" disrupting the "auras" (yes I have a sense of perspective, not to mention humor). Of course, TCM has nothing to do with crystals, but it's funny anyway.

I personally welcome research, and indeed, the NIH is finally funding research on a nice scale ($50 million in grant money is available in the US!). You can bet your swollen keyboard fingers that your's truly will attempt to get piece of that action. However, as I previously stated, proving TCM will be difficult, but not impossible, for research to substantiate (the old "different treatment for the same disease" thing......). Until now, it was EXTREMELY difficult to get anyone to fund any research on TCM. Who does the majority of funding for medical research? The pharmaceutical companies of course. They have no interest in funding TCM or anything other than chemical medicine. That is just common business sense.

One last thing- are you suggesting that the 17 year old in my story had accelerated healing capabilities? How can this be "spontaneous remission"? Using the same logic, can it be fair to say that perhaps his sinus infection would have (possibly) resolved itself anyway, even if he hadn't taken the antibiotics?

How about the 76 year old lady (again, I reference an event I personally witnessed) with a frozen shoulder so bad that she could not put a shirt on by herself. She had been to every MD, chiropractor, PT, etc under the sun with no results. This was a chronic condition that this woman had. ONE needle inserted into Stomach 38 and five minutes of lifting and thrusting and the woman had near complete mobility restored to her shoulder. This was ONE needle to a distal point on the leg. If this was self limiting, it would have already fixed itself by the time she came in the clinic. If it was a simple problem, some other medical professional would have fixed it. But acupuncturists are often "caregivers of last resort", meaning that after someone has tried everything else, with no results, they give AP a shot. In this case (again, I realize one case study doesn't PROVE anything), AP worked wonders. No surgery, no injections, no side effects. And it actually WORKED. Tell the 76 year old lady who left the clinic with tears (of joy) in her eyes, that AP doesn't work and she will definitely disagree. (FYI- this patient was so impressed that she now wanted the AP to "fix" every other imaginable thing wrong with her-the good news is that this allowed her case to have sufficient follow up-no the shoulder did not "re-freeze").

So this is what keeps me "pushing" TCM. I have seen (and personally felt) it work. After seeing that 76 year old lady, I knew that I would never view it in quite the same light. Maybe you could go spend some time in a clinic and interview the patients? (actually HIPPA laws wouldn't allow it without a ton of red tape-see research is thwarted again!).

Jack

[cha kuen]

I'll throw in my own experience.

I had a shoulder problem where the shoulder would kind of fall lower then where it's supposed to be. It didn't hurt but it was annoying because the shoulder wasnt' totally in the socket. I went to an MD that works with many athletes including the 49ers. He x-rayed it and said there's nothing wrong with it.

"Does it hurt?"
"Nope."
"Well, I've worked with a lot of football players and I've put back bones and many things worse than this. If it doesn't hurt then I wouldn't worry about it. If it hurts then come back to me."

Then I went to Hong Kong for other purposes and I ran into a TCM practiioner called a bonesetter. He looked at my shoulder and put some herbal plaster on it. I kept it on for 8 hours. When I went home I thought to myself

"How is this smelly herbal plaster gonna put my shoulder back in place? What the heck?"

I gave him the benefit of the doubt and went to see him the next day. He took off the herbal plaster, cleaned my skin wiht some alcohol. THen he put a finger under my arm pit of that shoulder and just pushed upward, that looks like a chiropractic adjustment. Then I looked at my shoulder and it stayed in place! He told me that it's back in place but the ligaments are still weak and only time will heal the ligaments. He told me not to go any crazy movements w/ my shoulder until it is better.

I'd liek to hear your placebo affect on that one.

Success story #2

My low back pain. Went to this other MD and he signed me up for physical therapy. I went to the therapy and learned a variety of stretches and how to strengthen my abs. I went home and did them all the time. My back didnt' get better but I fetl my back more stretched and my abs stronger.

WHen I was in HK, same time frame as above, i went to see the same bonesetter and he put the same herbs on me. These herbs are a mixture of 20 different herbs, cooked on a stove to a hot pasty application. After placing it on my back a few days in a row, my back got a lot better. I would say about 70%. My range of motion was better, the muscles were less tense. The rest of the way would have to be me doing some stretching and walking excercises that he recommended.

blah blah blah, TCM is exploding worldwide and no one can stop us!. =]

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
I'll can't tell you why some TCM people don't really want research. I can only speak for myself. As I have stated before, there are some real yo-yo's out there (on both sides of the arguement). Maybe they feel that their crystals won't work if there are "negative vibrations" disrupting the "auras" (yes I have a sense of perspective, not to mention humor). Of course, TCM has nothing to do with crystals, but it's funny anyway.


I'd assert it's a standard negative response anyone has when their belief system is challenged. From their perspective, why research what already works?

Likewise, I'd also assert people who are emotionally invested in alternative medicine tend towards a higher suspicion of establishment anything. Therefore, they'll view (wrongly, IMO) attempts at quantifying its results with societally-accepted methods as a threat to it.

However, as I previously stated, proving TCM will be difficult, but not impossible, for research to substantiate (the old "different treatment for the same disease" thing......). Until now, it was EXTREMELY difficult to get anyone to fund any research on TCM.



Who does the majority of funding for medical research? The pharmaceutical companies of course. They have no interest in funding TCM or anything other than chemical medicine. That is just common business sense.


I've seen this argument numerous times. With herbs at least, I've never found it compelling. To use a specific example, let's play the following mind experiment:

Assumption: some magical compilation of dit da jow speeds injury healing by factor mumble

1) Is there a significant market for this sort of thing?
2) Could modern production techniques replicate a recipe?
3) Is there intellectual property protection available?

My answers: obviously (particularly large if it's non-prescription), probably, and definitely (via patenting of production techniques and well-kept trade secrets).

Furthermore, aspirin is widely researched for various cardiovascular issues and it's essentially free.



One last thing- are you suggesting that the 17 year old in my story had accelerated healing capabilities? How can this be "spontaneous remission"? Using the same logic, can it be fair to say that perhaps his sinus infection would have (possibly) resolved itself anyway, even if he hadn't taken the antibiotics?


First off, I don't doubt his sinus infection would've gone away w/o antibiotics.

Accelerated healing capabilities? I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's a fair representation. More generally, I was pointing out that sometimes people get better in unexplained dramatic ways. Likewise, I had hoped to point out that some level of reproducibility is especially important.



How about the 76 year old lady (again, I reference an event I personally witnessed) with a frozen shoulder so bad that she could not put a shirt on by herself. She had been to every MD, chiropractor, PT, etc under the sun with no results. This was a chronic condition that this woman had. ONE needle inserted into Stomach 38 and five minutes of lifting and thrusting and the woman had near complete mobility restored to her shoulder. This was ONE needle to a distal point on the leg. If this was self limiting, it would have already fixed itself by the time she came in the clinic. If it was a simple problem, some other medical professional would have fixed it. But acupuncturists are often "caregivers of last resort", meaning that after someone has tried everything else, with no results, they give AP a shot. In this case (again, I realize one case study doesn't PROVE anything), AP worked wonders. No surgery, no injections, no side effects. And it actually WORKED. Tell the 76 year old lady who left the clinic with tears (of joy) in her eyes, that AP doesn't work and she will definitely disagree. (FYI- this patient was so impressed that she now wanted the AP to "fix" every other imaginable thing wrong with her-the good news is that this allowed her case to have sufficient follow up-no the shoulder did not "re-freeze").


Not that I'm exactly sure what a frozen shoulder is, but I'm glad for her.

Do you think this would be the likely outcome of most patients who visit an acupuncturist complaining of a frozen shoulder?



Maybe you could go spend some time in a clinic and interview the patients? (actually HIPPA laws wouldn't allow it without a ton of red tape-see research is thwarted again!).


*chuckle* I test software for a living. I'm interested in medicine as a periodic consumer plus the fact that it's just plain fascinating. BTW: several years ago, I was quite interested in TCM as well (I investigated enrolling in a TCM program), but found most of its adherents too wide-eyed and loopy for my taste. In my experience, they're often quite willing to notice the problems with Western medicine while being remarkably subservient to their field's own dogma.

One thing I've always like about most medical research I've read is its probabilities. To use myself as a specific example, I take 325mg of uncoated aspirin/day. I appreciate the fact that I can see the probability of reducing my risk of heart attack and stroke (FWIW, I believe garlic has some of this research as well).

[Former castleva]

"First off, I don't doubt his sinus infection would've gone away w/o antibiotics.

Accelerated healing capabilities? I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's a fair representation. More generally, I was pointing out that sometimes people get better in unexplained dramatic ways. Likewise, I had hoped to point out that some level of reproducibility is especially important."

Sometimes when an "integrated" approach is used,namely with proper medication or whatever goes and alternative medicine.
When the patient recovers as should,alternative medicine may collect points even when recovery would have happened just as well without it.


"One last thing- are you suggesting that the 17 year old in my story had accelerated healing capabilities? How can this be "spontaneous remission"? Using the same logic, can it be fair to say that perhaps his sinus infection would have (possibly) resolved itself anyway, even if he hadn't taken the antibiotics?"

Related tactics can be effective in fooling people.
A quack can promote unscientific medicine by providing one with a promising anecdote,a miraculous recovery.
This can be especially effective if the patient already has negative experiences of medicine or is somehow misinformed.

[Jack Squat]

TCM is real, and it's here....

Lets just hope the AMA doesn't get involved and take over or your acupuncture tx will cost $450!!!

Fragbot,
I agree that too many of the acupuncture students are starry-eyed crystal toting flakes, but the "good" news is that statistics show that within 1 year of graduation, 50% will not be doing TCM (those type of people have no true business skills). Within five years, the % of practicing AP's is even less (much less, but I forgot the exact #). The ones that are left standing are usually decent (survival of the fittest?).


All skeptics,
I know you skeptics are hard to convince, but what does your average MD think regarding TCM? The Journal of Public Health (Dec 2002 issue) published a poll in which 502 Western trained doctors were questioned. Interesting results.....

62% believed in the efficacy of acupuncture (didn't go into details)
51.6% believed in efficacy of Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine
58.3% "agreed" or "strongly agreed" that some CAM therapies need to be accepted by Western Medicine.

Does it mean that acupuncture is perfect or that it works everytime? Of course not (what does), but these MD's are people who have dedicated their lives to medicine, not someone sitting at a desk 9-5 working at "where ever" playing armchair quarterback. I totally understand the healthy skeptism, but don't understand dogmatic anti-TCM ideologies. If you would like, I can provide some pretty scary statistics regarding Western medicine. Does that mean I won't use Western medicine? Heck no! If I am in an auto accident (or shot, or any other acute trauma), please take me to the ER!

Jack

[cha kuen]

Jack,


Good post. That should be the end of this thread. Anymore posting by anyone is pointless because it's obviously going to go nowhere.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Jack Squat
[B]TCM is real, and it's here....

All skeptics,
I know you skeptics are hard to convince, but what does your average MD think regarding TCM? The Journal of Public Health (Dec 2002 issue) published a poll in which 502 Western trained doctors were questioned. Interesting results.....

62% believed in the efficacy of acupuncture (didn't go into details)
51.6% believed in efficacy of Traditional Chinese Herbal Medicine
58.3% "agreed" or "strongly agreed" that some CAM therapies need to be accepted by Western Medicine.


Who on this thread are you talking to?

Assuming you're responding to me (at least partially), I'm starting to think you barely read my posts.

In principle, I agree with the first statement. That being said, I believe it has fairly limited applicability. The same is true (but less so) for #2.

#3 is so general as to be unhelpful. Only an ideologue would make such a dramatic claim as "TCM does(n't) work." To make such a blanket statement throws the baby out with the bathwater.



I totally understand the healthy skeptism, but don't understand dogmatic anti-TCM ideologies. If you would like, I can provide some pretty scary statistics regarding Western medicine.


Strawman, much.

"dogmatic anti-TCM ideologies"

Quite frankly, I've no ideology one way or the other. Finding information beyond "it worked for Uncle Ted" is **** near impossible about many parts of alternative medicine. Since I understand how belief influences healing (positively or negatively), I dislike anecdotal evidence. Probabilities are much more helpful.

In a nutshell, here's my take on TCM:

1) acupuncture works generally well for chronic pain
2) certain herbal concoctions work well, but the contraindications are poorly-understood. That being said, I suspect a larger number of concoctions work poorly if at all. I'd hope our understanding of which mixtures belong in which pool improves over time.

NOW: do those same herbal concoctions work "better" than prescribed meds for the same conditions? That's another question worth asking. Fundamentally, it's the same question the FDA asks when debating whether to approve a new prescription drug.

As an off-topic aside, I think many people are too trusting when they see the words herbal and safe together, but this is mainly a consumer issue.

3) like most professions, I suspect certain TCM doctors are dramatically more competent than others. However, unlike dealing with mainstream doctors, it's difficult to determine a base-level of competency.

The relatively unstructured and unregulated nature of the business (apparently changing in some states) makes this more difficult to understand.

As an aside, I've attempted to respond in detail to points you raise. OTOH, when reading your posts, I feel more that I'm a parishioner in a pew.

[Leimeng]

~ Roughly 50% of all MD's, Nurses, Osteopaths, & Accupunturist in the US graduated in the bottom half of their class.
~ Gee, reading this debate is fun!
~ Some people will believe anything no matter what the facts are! Flat earth? Yes! Roswell/UFO's Yes! The government is involved in a vast conspiracy! Don't tell anyone, cause they might be listening, but I agree! You can trust MD's and pharmaceutical companies. Yeah, they are 'scientific' and only want to 'help' poor suffering people! Brittany and LLCoolJ actually have enduring well trained musical talent and people listen to them irregardless of their sex appeal! The latest teenie bop magazine says so! If my crystals vibrate correctly, that means I am being protected from some sickness that you are carrying! Yeah, that is what that yoga teacher told me, she is so nice and gentle!
~ If you want to find 'facts' supporting anything, you probably can. The deal is that what works, works! All else is hearsay.
~ You can draw any conclusions that you want to from all that.
:)
D)



Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

:cool: :cool:

[Former castleva]

You might have had a point somewhere,not entirely sure.


"Roughly 50% of all MD's, Nurses, Osteopaths, & Accupunturist in the US graduated in the bottom half of their class. "

This is especially funny.Not that there is not any data,but that you pick supposed half of the class,and point out that half of students graduated "in the bottom half" as opposed to other half who did not.Really,is there much choise then?

But I think you posted to have some fun and that´s fine.

[BetaSao]

This thread has been very amusing indeed. Well, here are my two cents, for what it is worth. To those of you who believe in TCM (myself included), kudos to your openess in thought and I am sure you are already benefitting from the immense health improvements that TCM may already have given you. To those of you who remain skeptics (especially Former), your lack of faith (or should I say, non-existent) in TCM is respected and noted. It is a bit of a pity because there may be areas in your life that you might be able to benefit from with TCM but you will not get the chance to unless you are willing to try it. Perhaps, some day, there may come an instance in which the only recourse you may have is provided by TCM and from this experience, you may have a different mindset about TCM. Until then, your doubts are respected and I hope that you will never come across the day when you will have to depend on TCM.

Oh, yes, and by the way, I AM a TCM practitioner, and I graduated at the TOP of my high school, and NOT at the bottom of my class. In addition, I have two undergraduate degrees and two graduate degrees from top American universities in the East Coast, along with my qualification in TCM. There definitely are some people who did not do that well in their high schools, but this is not limited to TCM.... it exists in all fields, including Engineering, Computer Science, etc.

[Former castleva]

Well,thanks for joining and handing out your achievements.

Faith is a strong,but a good word.

Faith,is our ignorance.
Faith,requires and sometimes cannot stand further examination.
What we know is science,faith reflects our ignorance.

[BetaSao]

Faith.... is also our life and what we live by.

Without faith, there is no hope. And where there is no hope, then what is there?

I would rather live with faith and hope, than without. It is when one loses faith that one immerses in depression and oftentimes, life itself becomes pointless.

It may be valid that faith may be ignorance, but faith is also where strides are made. You, Former, are obviously an 18-yr old science enthusiast. Well, I am a big science enthusiast myself ! And I am ever thankful on a daily basis for those scientists who had faith in what they did, persisted and relied on their faith, and eventually with their hard work came up with all the many wonderful modern marvels that you and I enjoy today (I assume you do live in this modern world with electricity, etc.; if not, then ignore my previous statment and maybe you should try out this modern world to see all the wonderous things that hope through faith has brought us) Without them, we would not be on this forum with people from all around the world, we would have no electricity, there would be no airplanes, and so on, and so on.

And last but not least, faith itself does not imply ignorance. It is the people who, despite faith, choose to look the other way or to refute reality, and it is through these people from where ignorance exists, not through faith itself.

[BetaSao]

Oh, yeh, and another important point.... faith is what created science.... a person's faith in his/her own belief and the willingness of that person to research and expound on that belief.

[Former castleva]

Perhaps I should have made myself more clear.

When I said "faith",I meant faith in something which requires faith in order to be accepted,widely.
In this context,terms like "faith medicine" are sometimes used.

Besides this,like you said,I have faith too in certain sense,but since I have a reasonable amount of faith that I´ve made myself clear (Have I?) I won´t be clinging to words.

[BetaSao]

Former:

Glad you pointed that out. Like you said, it is important to have "faith in order to be accepted", and this is very true. You definitely have faith, and so do all of us. In this thread, we are talking about the faith in TCM.

For Former, it is the faith in the lack of validity in TCM, regardless of the number of articles, quotes, etc. that other people have tried to point to in this thread. That faith is perfectly OK, and Former has the right to have a lack of faith in TCM... not everyone believes in TCM. What that implies for people like Former, until another faith is born - "the faith that TCM does work", then TCM would not present an avenue of potential health benefit to them. They will need to rely on the medicines / sources that they have faith in.

For others who have faith in the value of TCM, this is OK too, and this provides a wonderful source for health promotion to these people.

In either case, and you have affirmed this yourself, Former, we need faith in something in order for it to be accepted. And it is obvious that, at least at the present moment, you don't have the faith in TCM, which, again, is ok. Maybe someday you will, maybe you never will. Que sera, sera.

[Former castleva]

Yes,yes.

I don´t have faith in TCM now,and if it suddenly was to develop from what it now is,I would NOT NEED to have faith.
I don´t need to have faith for what I call real medicine (medical science) since I have lots of evidence,objective evidence and a rational basis to work on.It does not require me to either believe in fanciful fields of energies or obscure physiology any more than it´s effectivenes.

"For others who have faith in the value of TCM, this is OK too, and this provides a wonderful source for health promotion to these people."

This is a good point that I have been making.

Faith is essential in this,no matter whether it works or not,how strange may it ever be,it may seem to work because of this faith and the target of this very faith gets the credit.
Unfortunately,faith has limits.


"In either case, and you have affirmed this yourself, Former, we need faith in something in order for it to be accepted. And it is obvious that, at least at the present moment, you don't have the faith in TCM, which, again, is ok. Maybe someday you will, maybe you never will. Que sera, sera."

It depends a bit on how you read me,I´m afraid I might easily find words being put in my mouth.
For this,see what I just wrote above.
The day there is a solid ground for TCM,I need no faith no more.
And the fact that I choose not to believe does not have much emphasis on my life.

[BetaSao]

Former:

Thanks for the response and in validating my previous posts. The fact that Western medicine is working for you has got a lot to do with your faith in the medicine, just as TCM is in relation to the TCM-believers.

Regarding your comment "The day there is a solid ground for TCM, I need no faith no more", I agree and disagree with you. I agree with you on the fact that once you are convinced (by whatever source - quality/quantity), you will no longer be a disbeliever and you will buy into TCM. However, I disagree with you that faith is needed no more, because, as you pointed out yourself as well, faith is very much needed for healing to take place. If you believe in the medicine you need to continually have faith in it to work for it to have any positive results in you. This applies to TCM as well as non-TCM medicine.

And finally, as I have mentioned, there is already ample volume of material both by credited scientific resources as well as common resources vouching for TCM as well as documentation of cases that were cured by TCM. Some of the medical associations even have published guidelines to western doctors on certain indications that are best treated by TCM such as acupuncture. But you put it out best with the word "solid". What is "solid" for me is not necessarily "solid" enough for you. In that aspect, your sceptic view is well taken, and perhaps some day you will be able to find current evidence "solid" enough to merit your faith. If not, then so be it...... the important thing is to stay healthy, TCM or not, both of body, mind, and spirit.

[Former castleva]

"Thanks for the response and in validating my previous posts. The fact that Western medicine is working for you has got a lot to do with your faith in the medicine, just as TCM is in relation to the TCM-believers. "

Ah,you know I feel like I´m experiencing what I call the technique of "I may go down,but I´m taking you with me" which is something I´d expect to hear in a debate over religion (definitely I´m not trying to indicate though,that your reasoning is flawed)
What I´ve tried to say is that there was no requirement to have faith in real medicine for reasons that I´ve already expressed.
I cannot see why I´d need to have faith in it in order for it to work,it will work anyway.
Expectations may influence the outcome and can,but that´s not where it ends.


"Regarding your comment "The day there is a solid ground for TCM, I need no faith no more", I agree and disagree with you. I agree with you on the fact that once you are convinced (by whatever source - quality/quantity), you will no longer be a disbeliever and you will buy into TCM. However, I disagree with you that faith is needed no more, because, as you pointed out yourself as well, faith is very much needed for healing to take place. If you believe in the medicine you need to continually have faith in it to work for it to have any positive results in you. This applies to TCM as well as non-TCM medicine."

The same arguing goes on here.
If you don´t mind,I´d like you to point out why you need faith for healing to take place.
Since anecdotes are very common around here,I´ll finally put on my own.I do have medication for hyperthyroidism,I do not let it control my daily life any more than necessary.I take my pills two times a day,I do not really think about it that much (yet I realize what they consist) Regardless of how I´d like it to be like,they do influence me,and blood testing clearly shows that they do and it is because of them.There´s no faith here,if I were to be involved in a double blind study or related trial,I might be given fake medicine and told they are psychostimulants.It is shown that this could alter the way I react but would it come out that they were actually something else,they would work in their ways.
I´m stable in my position,I conclude that faith need not alter healing itself.I don´t think I said belief is necessary in order for it to be effective (unless it is belief medicine and works randomly)


"And finally, as I have mentioned, there is already ample volume of material both by credited scientific resources as well as common resources vouching for TCM as well as documentation of cases that were cured by TCM. Some of the medical associations even have published guidelines to western doctors on certain indications that are best treated by TCM such as acupuncture. But you put it out best with the word "solid". What is "solid" for me is not necessarily "solid" enough for you. In that aspect, your sceptic view is well taken, and perhaps some day you will be able to find current evidence "solid" enough to merit your faith. "

The day it becomes solid enough is when superstition faces dustbin and rational mechanisms and theory replaces it.
From this perspective,supposed random cases of healing can also be analysed.
But then it would not be alternative medicine anymore.

[BetaSao]

Former:

Your response is very amusing. I need to clarify a few points here:

1. I am NOT in a debate with you.

2. I am NOT trying to convince you about TCM. Whether you do or do not has no implications on me whatsoever. I could care less if you existed in a world in which TCM had never been heard of.

3. I have my beliefs and you have yours. TCM works for me and Western medicine works for you. You would rather rely on drugs for keeping healthy, and I would rather rely on my body's natural ability to stay healthy to be healthy. By the way, for what its worth, I am extremely healthy, have no mental/depression problems, and since my arrival in the US over twenty years ago, I have only been to a doctor twice (once for a severe sore throat in the early eighties and the other for a checkup required by my insurance company). I stay healthy by natural means, and almost never take drugs. I do supplement my daily exercises with a healthy diet and Chinese herbs when needed.

In any case, I wish you well and a healthy life. It has been very interesting conversing with you and sharing thoughts with you.

[Former castleva]

I entertain the view of staying healthy by natural means too,it is only when you´re sick that you may need some additional aid (natural or synthetic) conventional=not necessarily "unnatural".
Sometimes I might pass drugs too.


Anyway,I´ve enjoyed talking to you too.
Thank you for your time.