Hmm, stance ?

[TzuChan]

Hey guys, I had a rather unpleasant 'friendly' fight with one of my mates. We were just having some fun dissing eachother in front of everybody (should have seen the looks on their faces lool). So we act as if we're gonne fight, he does kickbox btw. So I set myself in a normal sparring position, where my weight is more or less on both legs, with my left leg in front. He gives a kick with his left leg, which goes right past my balls lol. I was lucky to not get my balls knocked out, and we just sparred a little more just for fun. But all I could think of was that first kick... I mean was there something wrong with my stance ? There was no way I could have lifted my back leg to then use it and block that kick.. Should I just have grabbed it with my hand or something ? The kick went just above my balls.. I'm all confused now lol

[yenhoi]

What stance were you in?

My lead knee protects my nuts.

Not to mention my forward intent or mobility, or my kick to his groin...

:D
:eek:

[TzuChan]

Left foot forward, right foot back, weight equally devided over both legs, rather wide stance (sparring stance)

[yenhoi]

Doesnt this stance have a name? What style do you hail from?

At any rate mobility is what protects your nuts and other vitals from being punched and kicked. Also the fact that you are bearing down on the bad man, makes it harder for him to target, even connect.

What were you doing while he was busy kicking at your nuts? Just standing there?

:eek:

[TzuChan]

It wasn't a real fight, we were just doing some **** to scare the crowd lol. The stance doesn't have a name no, just your basic Sanshou/Sanda/Sparring stance. I just wonder if I should have my weight divided differently when sparring or something, can't ask my trainer since it will be two weeks till next practice (school stuff) but I wanne know now ! :D

[Laughing Cow]

Like yenhoi said stances should not be static but merely transition points.

[Serpent]

And your lead knee should always protect your groin.

[SevenStar]

what kind of kick did he throw? could you not lift your leg and block with the shin?

[TzuChan]

He kicked euhm .. I don't know what it's called, but instead of a lowkick, that same movement, but towards my hips, weird way to kick yes, but he could have had my nuts :) So he went around, kicked in a way that I would 'fall' into my void, although he didn't think it through, he just kicked me with his right leg since that's his only good kicking leg apparently. My groin was protected for that sort of kick, from his left leg, but not his right leg. Perhaps a picture of a stance where you are well protected could be usefull ? Since in sparring we don't kick to the groin anyway (not allowed in sanshou sport), I'm not prepared for it apparently. And stances should be a good static defence imho, I'm not gonne jump around like a boxer, I've seen some of the best Sanshou tournaments (on tape) from my weight class etc.. to prepare myself a little better, and I have to say the ones that jump around all the time usually lose, and the ones with a strong stance, that only move when necessary win, so if the other person doesn't move, they don't move, or if the other one just jumps in circles around them, they just step and turn in a relaxed but very controlled way (Anyone who does Sanshou knows what I'm talking about I think, it's the basic moving they teach you when you start learning sanshou/sanda). So I'm not looking for an answer in the sence of move more or something, cause that's not the real problem, there was something extremely wrong with my stance I think, I should have been able to avoid this almost-painfull moment, without having to jump/move excessively. Unless by moving you mean stepping aside, that would have been an option too of course, but I don't know if it was the right one, I'd love to get more input on this, because I can't wait another two weeks to ask my teacher =)

[Repulsive Monkey]

Well if he had of hit your crown jewels it would of totally been your fault for standing in a double-weighted stance. Personally I can't think of anything else more weaker or slower to react than a stance which has 50% weight in each foot.

[yenhoi]

I'm not gonne jump around like a boxer

Most boxers are moving very specifically and with a purpose.

there was something extremely wrong with my stance

Yep, your weight was 50/50 and you werent moving. Because you were flat footed and double weighted, you will find it hard to move quickly in attack or defense.

Unless by moving you mean stepping aside,

Exactly, move out of the way, to the side, forward, or back. Or like 7* said, block or deflect the kick by lifting one of your legs into his.

Unless the boxers you know or have seen are complete dolts, they could probably teach you a quick (and painful) lesson in mobility, economy of movement, speed, fluidity, combination, and even protecting your groin (even a modern boxer has a lead knee guard...)

As much as you want to have root and be deliberate in your actions and movements, you also need to be able to move quickly and lightly. You also should be attacking your opponent.




:eek:

[TzuChan]

We were just playing, please don't forget that lol :D
So 50-50 should be avoided at all costs ? Ok that's good to know, so far I usually wait in that position for something to happen.. I prefer setting weight on the front leg then, to not give away my leg for low kicks etc.. and it's indeed easier to react this way, I practiced with my brother, the weight in WT stance (back leg) was totally bad against low kicks, but with weight on my front leg I could take some serious kicks in my side of the upper leg, and I could move better too.

I think the 50-50 is a bad habbit because I do so much pushing hands the last couple of weeks, I always start there with a 50-50 stance.

My stance is kinda screwed these last couple of months, my trainer told me already, I just can't help falling back in old WT stances etc.. that gets me killed when he sees I'm leaving my front leg empty lol, definatelly in moving step pushing hands :D So now I'm just kinda looking for the best stance, to spar in.

Thanks guys. I know this is a stupid question to ask here, but I just couldn't wait for an answer that long, thanks again for helping :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Well if he had of hit your crown jewels it would of totally been your fault for standing in a double-weighted stance. Personally I can't think of anything else more weaker or slower to react than a stance which has 50% weight in each foot.

You're joking, yeah?

[apoweyn]

Tzuchan,


Thanks guys. I know this is a stupid question to ask here, but I just couldn't wait for an answer that long, thanks again for helping

I don't think that the weight distribution is your problem. Your problem is getting too settled in that distribution. Personally, I see no problem with a fifty-fifty split. Better maneuverability than weight on either the front or back leg. In those cases, you need to shift your weight before you can use any footwork.

Granted, any kicking you do with a leg will be faster if there's no weight on it beforehand (e.g., cat stance). But personally, my priority is footwork. I'd rather shift to kick than shift to move. Getting myself in the most advantageous position is paramount.

If you took a wide stance and settled into it, then that's the problem. But that's not your weight distribution. That's your posture.

And, as has already been mentioned, boxers don't bounce. They maintain a low level of movement. There's purpose behind it. Calling it 'bouncing' is missing the point.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

I wouldent say avoid 50/50, what I am saying is to move, be moving, dont stand there and wait.

Whenever Ive done push hands Ive been told (and learned by being knocked on my ass..) to avoid a static 50/50 weighting.

I am a fan of the Wing Chun 0/100 weighting, but will repeat myself, move... move... move. Having an 'empty' leg gives you many options and a different set of defensive mechanisms. The trick is that your leg is never really empty unless it needs to be. Move!

:eek:

[Repulsive Monkey]

Course I'm not joking why are you? You got to be kidding me if you think that a static 50/50 stance is gonna do anything worthwhile for you. Yenhoi breaks it open further in that movement should be constantly moving, but in a rest period I would definitely feel relaxed and ready in a 70/30 - 80/20 stance, it makes more sense.

Push hands should have you ever being 50/50, thats just asking for trouble.

[Merryprankster]

RM,

You misread his post. Take your head out of the dogma and pay attention.

50/50 is ok AS LONG AS you don't hang out there. When I box my weight is 50/50 because I want to move in any direction quickly--I'm also always moving. The weight shift comes when I throw a punch. Weight shifts to move are relatively minor. In thai boxing, I tend to weight the back leg more so my front leg is available for shin checks. My movement is consequently slower as I have to shift weight to move.

Bottom line--if you want to use movement as defense, you can't heavily weight one leg or you have to shift all that weight to . If you're more interested in putting body parts between you and the other guy then maybe a different distribution is necessary.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Course I'm not joking why are you?

Nope. I'm not joking.

You can't think of anything slower to react than a 50/50 weight distribution. Okay. That's your experience, I guess. But I personally can't think of anything faster for movement (footwork) than a 50/50 distribution. As I said earlier, if you're kicking, it'll obviously be faster if there's no weight on it. No weight shift required. But if you're looking to actually change your location, then you'll need to redistribute your weight to do it. (Or hop, I suppose) In that case, the 50/50 is faster, in my experience.


You got to be kidding me if you think that a static 50/50 stance is gonna do anything worthwhile for you.

Reading is fundamental, RM. Give it another try. Tell you what: I'll make it easy on you and quote myself (from a post that actually went up prior to the post by Yenhoi you cite below):


I don't think that the weight distribution is your problem. Your problem is getting too settled in that distribution.

Too settled = not moving. Dig?


Yenhoi breaks it open further in that movement should be constantly moving

How about that.


But in a rest period I would definitely feel relaxed and ready in a 70/30 - 80/20 stance, it makes more sense.

To you. Not to me. But that's fine. Opinions vary. I didn't ask whether you were joking because I thought that this opinion here was absurd. But the statement that you can't imagine anything less maneuverable than a 50/50 is a pretty serious statement. An overstatement, in my opinion. Fifty fifty on the balls of your feet is very maneuverable. Fifty fifty on your heels, very not maneuverable.


Push hands should have you ever being 50/50, thats just asking for trouble.

I don't get this sentence. Did you mean 'never' being 50/50? If so, where's your weight in push hands? I've not done that exercise, personally.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

Usually in push hands if you become double weighted (50/50... static..) you fall over. But, if you stop your weight anywhere, if the guy has any sort of sensitivity, you will fall over.

I cant describe push hands. Taichi sticky hands. One person feeds energy, the other recieves and redirects. Or so.

;)

Todays street fighting thread has been brought to you by the principle of Mobility.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Usually in push hands if you become double weighted (50/50... static..) you fall over. But, if you stop your weight anywhere, if the guy has any sort of sensitivity, you will fall over.

Thanks for the description, Yenhoi. :)


I cant describe push hands. Taichi sticky hands. One person feeds energy, the other recieves and redirects. Or so.

Yeah, I guess I'll need to see more of it in person to really get the whole picture. Though I get the concept.


Todays street fighting thread has been brought to you by the principle of Mobility.

Word.



Stuart B.

[Becca]

Kinda depends on your personal fighting style, doesn't it? I don't spar much, but lately Sifu has been in a sparring frame of mind. What I've noticed is that what works for one person won't for another. I'm short and squat, but quick, so I usually sink into a low horse and use the cresent walk to get around. I've noticed that taller guys have trouble attacking me in this stance, and when they do, they tend to leave themselves open for a nice upper cut to the chin/breast bone. But my weight IS 50/50 for the most part. It also leaves me open to front and cresent kicks, though. I'm working on blocking with hands instead of knees and shins. I just can't get 'em up fast enough.

[HuangKaiVun]

When you are attacked in real life, you're going to have to respond from whatever position you are in.

[yenhoi]

When you are attacked in real life, you're going to have to respond from whatever position you are in.

Not true, unless you walk around totally un-aware of your surroundings. Most people get 'in trouble' because they simply arent paying attention, or dont want to. The majority of violence on the street is not as random as the randoms want you to think.

Predators hunt prey.

;)

[HuangKaiVun]

"not true?????"

So you go around all day in your little special "stance" ready to fend off any number of threats at any time?

Not only that, you lie AWAKE at night in a perpetual state of readiness? After all, you are "paying attention" all the time and cannot be assaulted at any hour of the day?

Do you realize you might actually get attacked at night (like so many women have experienced)? Or in your car? Or in an airplane? Or with your girlfriend? Or in the bathroom?


Real life isn't a kung fu movie in which the hero can easily dispatch tons of armed invaders by going into his little stance and jumping out of sleep any time he wishes.

[Black Jack]

Just to add something here. I may be wrong but I believe when people are talking about stances they are talking about classical "combat" ready stances. You know hands up, elbows in, chin down, on guard, mano a mano, which is good as a solid stance is critical to stability and movement throughout a confrontation but their are also "situational" ready stances which should be noted as they do not showcase combative intent and still allow for a effective pre-emptive or counter attack to a violent situation.

Some of those that I practice-

Jack Benny- This is the classical jack benny stance or as I like to call it the thinking mans stance do to the inquistive position of the arms.

Pretty deceptive and great for launching chin jabs, chops, tiger claws, hammer blows, what have ya.

Folded Arms- Arms lightly folded under chest. Great for launching strikes such as a knife hand with the arm hidden under the top arm.

Hands on Hips- More bladed but again deceptive with the strikes coming from below the attackers field of vision.

Hands Up- Typical "hey man" I don't want no trouble palms out muay thai guard position. Great for pre-emptive strikes and counters and it has that psychological advantage of making you look like the non-aggressor.

On the topic on percentages I am going with the 50/50 but in a fight you will be transitioning rapidly so I think the basics are more important so much than perfect percentages. Such as the elbows tucked in, chin down, positioning, protected vitals.

Cheers

[rogue]

When you guys are talking about 50/50 being slow are you flat footed (rooted) or is your weight more on the balls of your feet?



I cant describe push hands. Taichi sticky hands. One person feeds energy, the other recieves and redirects. Or so. I fell in love with push hands with my first ward off and roll back, and you're right Yenhoi it is hard to describe. I think grapplers would take to it and get it real fast though. "Taichi sticky hands"? More like sticky body IMO.:)


Do those same ones myself BJ.

[Black Jack]

Rogue,

The Jack Benny is old school cool.:D

[rogue]

It's a favorite of a friend of mine. He's even add a little chin or cheek scratch to both help the sucker get distracted and used to seeing the hand moving. Then it's either a pop to the nose or a kick to the gut to start the fun.

[Becca]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Just to add something here. I may be wrong but I believe when people are talking about stances they are talking about classical "combat" ready stances.

That's what I was talking about, anyway. Everything my Sifu teaches has a "form" version and a "self defence" version. You learn the form version first to get the body mechanics down, then work it up to the self defence version and practice using it from the ready position (hands loose at sides with open palms and feet at sholder length apart) in drills and controlled sparring.

[Merryprankster]

I think grapplers would take to it and get it real fast though.

Well rogue, we pretty much DO sticky hands, just more free form. And definitely sticky body. :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Well rogue, we pretty much DO sticky hands, just more free form. And definitely sticky body. :)

We're going to have to find a new term for that. That's just wrong.

:)

[yenhoi]

HKV: my point was that you need to pay attention to whats going on around you, then you are not at just any ole position or mindset when "the **** hits the fan." I dont know about you, but I dont go and sit on the toliet when I have any suspicion that I might get ATTACKED any minute. Maybe your envoirnment is in need of changing.

You are wrong. Violence does not happen COMPLETLY at random.

:rolleyes:

[fa_jing]

I still don't understand the trajectory, the path of movement of the kick. And your on-guard stance - are the heels lined up in a line facing the opponent, or are they spread apart? The first option protects the groin more. Against a front kick, you can shift your weight to the back leg as you lift the front knee and brush the kick to the side with your hanging lower leg a la Wing Chun. Against a round-trajectory kick, you could step forward and out with the front leg and raise your REAR knee to block the kick a la Muy Thai. But the best option of all is to simply move out of the way, and throw a low gan sao or gum sao to track the kick.

[Becca]

Originally posted by fa_jing
But the best option of all is to simply move out of the way, and throw a low gan sao or gum sao to track the kick.

??? What is gan sao and gum sao?

Good ideas about moveing away and blocking with the knee. I'll have to try it that way. My arm blocks dont work well on round trajectory kicks/punches.

[yenhoi]

gan and gum are lower gate wing chun hand movements/structures. Basically reach down and touch the kick, so you can read your opponent, track is energy, stick to his movements, etc.

:eek:

[unrelated]

Weight distribution aside, your problem may be one of time and distance. If you line up with someone leaving an open line of attack and are with in his critical distance, then you will likely get hit. By critical distance I mean that distance which your opponent can launch and land a non-telegraphic attack.

Do you recall the angle and distance between the two of you? Did your friend launch his attack non-telegrpahically or did you see it coming?

[Merryprankster]

Dude, I think the guy was throwing a thai style push kick at him. It really does look odd if you think of throwing a kick for damage and then you see this thing come at you.

[HuangKaiVun]

YOU might not get attacked sitting on the toilet, yenhoi, but rest assured that my students (particularly my female students) might and have.

Whether you like it or not, attacks often occur in ambush situations. And even if you know that they're coming, often one doesn't have a chance to go into his pert little stance before the first assault comes. People will WAIT until you let your guard down - which is what stalkers do.

Of course, that doesn't mean that you can't fight your way out of that. There are things to train that teach you how to prevent and fight out of unusual situations, which we work on all the time in school.

Having a good stance is only one part of the battle. Getting INTO that stance when somebody sneak attacks you - that's a different story.

[Becca]

You actually teach your students how to fight thier way out of the toilette?!?!? Now that's dedication to your students!:D

[taijiquan_student]

Being that I practice taiji, I would say avoid 50/50 weighting. Other styles will say different. Whatever.

But Tzuchan, you mentioned that you start out 50/50 in push hands, right? NEVER EVER be double weighted with 50/50 distribution in push hands. You will get rocked so hard by anyone that's really good or can see that you're double weighted. Trust me.

[Becca]

The idea is to start off 50/50 but not fully rooted. Your wieght is 50/50 on each foot but the majority of the wieght on each foot is on the ball of the foot. with practice, this basic stance becomes a vauable tool. You fine tune your body to detect pressure and what direction it is comming from. Once you know that, you can rearrange your wieght distribution to effectively counter the incomming force. the basice 50/50 stance is a very good starting point for almost all stances or postures.

[Xebsball]

i didnt even read this thread but...

sant ti shi
:cool:

[Becca]

Originally posted by TzuChan
I mean was there something wrong with my stance ? There was no way I could have lifted my back leg to then use it and block that kick.. Should I just have grabbed it with my hand or something ?

I just had an epifiny(sp?) have you ever tried a tist block? I'll try to explain it.

from basic horse: rotate 90 degrees tward your forward leg into bow stance while bringing your rear hand down in a circle block, ending fully extended and parallel with your rear leg. forward hand can either come to your hip in a fist or downward open hand block or you can raise it to an over head block.

You can then rotate 180 into lunge stance but facing him.
* Using over head block: deliver a chop to the neck, the shift to oposite lunge and deliver a body punch.
* From downward facing hip block: Rotate 180 into lung while delivering open hand chest strike, pulling other hand into your armpit in downward facing open hand block. Then step to his side and out a bit with forward leg, pull into cat stance and deliver open hand temple strike.
* Using closed fist: Rotate 180 into lunge delivering chest punch, then another chest punch with other hand, then a body punch.

BTW, these are from Chinese soft fist.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Becca
You actually teach your students how to fight thier way out of the toilette?!?!? Now that's dedication to your students!:D

HKV's martial arts are best suited to the toilet. That's where most sh!t ends up after all.

;)

[rogue]

You actually teach your students how to fight thier way out of the toilette?!?!? What's wrong with that? Considering everyone has to use a public toilet sometime and they are not always the safest places it is something that should be tactically considered.

[Becca]

umm.... Nothing wrong with it. I was just wondering how you get the whole class inside that little cubical stall....:D

[No_Know]

"So I set myself in a normal sparring position, where my weight is more or less on both legs, with my left leg in front. He gives a kick with his left leg, which goes right past my balls lol."

"My groin was protected for that sort of kick, from his left leg, but not his right leg. Perhaps a picture of a stance where you are well protected could be usefull ? "

I was gathering that the surprise kick At one statement is the left leg and at another is the right leg. Clear this-up for best advice.


You rear leg was too far to the side even if it was back. Too far to support a push at the hips straight back.-ish

50-50 has been used to refer to a horseriding stance. But you were in a wide feet perpendicular stance. your hips were twisted to the left It seem, my perception.

Push off with the rear leg tilt back-ish and thrust your rear leg forward to kick with the rear leg from your stance.

To defend your groin Adjust knees--sink back and to the side. However your front leg becomes the resulting target. Prepare for this...

People Say differently to what they are Thinking because we use the same names for different things.-ish

All anti 50-50 people, How do any of you do this Moving stuff with two legs without the percentage of weight-division per leg at some point being 50-50~? One might wonder.

[yenhoi]

50/50 and 70/30 and 0/100 etc are just nice little pigeon holes to call random things that really dont exist. If you are truely 50/50 or 70/30 or 0/100, then your standing still.

:eek:

[No_Know]

Even moving can have both feet on the ground at some points. It perhaps seems, some might think.~

[HuangKaiVun]

Women have been attacked on the toilet, yes.

Contrary to what Serpent says, people do get attacked in bathrooms.

You have to know how to respond from whatever position. Otherwise, you aren't ready to truly defend yourself.