Is Shotokan really inferior?

[fa_jing]

Well we hear a lot of ripping up of Shotokan schools and their members, and I don't know anyone outside of the Karate camp that's been impressed by them at tournaments. But could it be that they are simply a victim of their own success? That it is actually a great style, just that it's so popular that you get the watered-down mcDojo effect, underqualified instructors and dilution of the athletic pool/less serious participants?

[KC Elbows]

5.4

[Water Dragon]

This is a spin off? Where's the original?

[rogue]

check out 24fightingchickens.com

[Fred Sanford]

If a shotokan guy fought a TKD guy who would win?

[Rolling Elbow]

The audience would win... the site would be too funny NOT to enjoy

[fa_jing]

I bet it's a pretty good style because otherwise, it probably wouldn't be so popular. And it was well-regarded enough by the Koreans to take it and modify it into TKD. I have studied TKD, I don't think it's the best way to learn because the fighting is not the same as the forms. However there are plenty of formidable practicioners of both styles.

[TenTigers]

most people have not witnessed real shotokan. Check out JKA Shotokan-Japanese Karate assn. They are the real deal. Real shotokan has great structure-very much like Hung-Ga,a killer reverse punch,destructive blocks, simultaneous block/strike, interception of opponent's intent, and aggressive footwork.Trouble is, most of what you see here in the states are guys who when stationed over in Japan, or whatever, took it for a year or two and came home and taught. Then people played 'telephone' and the rest is history.

[dezhen2001]

agreed when i used to train shotokan (from JKA as well) we used to do a lot of application stuff and not so much competition sparring - but that was just my sensei...

We covered a lot of stuff, not the usual bouncing around and backfisting either :D

I used to find it hard to compete because i was used to fighting differently, but it was fun :)

Really helped me get a good grounding in MA as well as saved my @ss on numerous occasions.

dawood

[Black Jack]

One of my teachers best buds was a Royal Marine Commando gent and a lot of his system from what I understand is stripped down old-school Shotokan karate.

The little I saw was nasty.

[norther practitioner]

most people have not witnessed real shotokan


Isn't this the case with most arts?

lol

:D

[Surferdude]

I train in Shotokan... It aint flashy but belive me if you **** anyone off who knows it.. your gonna seriously get your ass handed to you.
Really I kid you not. My Sensei is like in his 60's, but because he did shotokan everyday of his life for the past 40 years he is fast as lighting and has a huge amount of power.. he's a 7th degree
Not to bad!!!(for 60):D
So dont mess!!! hehehe

[African Tiger]

Uh, surfer dude, you smoke weed right? Us bud-heads can often distinguish our own...

My comment to you is, uh that's a hell of an achievement for your instructor. But if he isn't at least 7th degree at 60 years old, then something is wrong. My sifu is 6 years younger than yours and he's no less than 9th Dan in 7 different arts :D But that's just me talking s-h-i-t.

But what we want to know - or what I want to know - is given Japanese and Korean disciplines' predisposition to linear attacks, how would Shotokan deal with a CMA like Pa Kua, or therefore any animal style, especially Dragon or Snake? It's awfully hard to hit something that doesn't move in a straight line!

Having studied TKD and Shotokan both (very briefly!), I can't see how they could possibly match up to the CMAs.

[rogue]

The one thing about many run of the mill Shotokan people is they don't work on tai sabaki. While the strikes in Shotokan and older TKD is linear (aka efficient) the footwork and body positioning is what makes it work.

I'd think they'd hold up well AT.

[David Jamieson]

I think that the fact that Shotokan is probably the most widely practiced and best known style of Karate on the planet is what draws people to it's practice. It is also what turns people away and makes them critical of it.

It has completely useful and simple techniques the same as many other arts. Perhaps it's just not mystical enough for many? Maybe some mystify it too much?

I know and have know many a practitioner and sensei of this style of Karate. They (the sensei) are all quite good at the style and very capable of handling themselves in a confrontation.

I wouldn't sell it or any martial art short. they all have something.
Well...except for that whacko fake ninja stuff! hahahahaha :D

cheers

[joedoe]

I have a good friend who did 10 years of Shotokan before joining our school. While he prefers our style he tells me that Shotokan is a good style of Karate.

Horses for courses methinks.

[David Jamieson]

as an addendum:

the 24fightingchickens sight is actually quite funny and makes some good observations in regards to the "peddling" of a martial art.

I think there is just a tiny bit of bitterness in the spirit of that site however and that the site owner was in some way taken as a rube in his experiences with the JKA. Probably more from a personal relationship gone bad with his instructor or some such event.

fwiw. :)

cheers

p.s I have also met some Kyukoshin folks who got their grounding in Shotokan and those guys are bad a.s.s. :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by African Tiger

But what we want to know - or what I want to know - is given Japanese and Korean disciplines' predisposition to linear attacks, how would Shotokan deal with a CMA like Pa Kua, or therefore any animal style, especially Dragon or Snake? It's awfully hard to hit something that doesn't move in a straight line!

Having studied TKD and Shotokan both (very briefly!), I can't see how they could possibly match up to the CMAs.

Footwork, man, footwork. When I was trainin karate, I trained with a Japanese friend of mine who was born, raised and trained in Kumamoto. He called his style "Traditional Japanese Karate", but he seemed to know all of the shotokan katas and a few okinawan ones also. he was awesome at sidestepping and is easily the fastest man I've ever seen. He's also one of the hardest kickers that I've met, and he's only 5'5 and about 155-160.

As far as training went, he was big on fighting. We did alot of sparring - hard contact and bare knuckle. For that reason though, we'd pull strikes to the face. He was also a stickler on forms, but he only really emphasized a few - taikyoku shodan (I know it's not one of the originals, but he found it very helpful for teaching beginners power generation), sanchin and a few others. He used to have friendly challenge matches in Japan - he'd veisit clubs and ask them to play, not just other karate schools, but judo and kickboxing clubs also - he encouraged me to do the same, and is the reason why I had my challenge match. I was supposed to have another, but the opponent backed out. From my experience with him, good karate is awesome. He's back in Japan now, but every few years he comes to visit and we train. I'm hoping to get there some time in the future so we can train again.

[GroungJing]

Traditional shotokan karate is very good and a real MA. Tradional TKD is also good. Depends a lot on the instructors though, we all know this.

However, There are some good organizations

Last time I was really into Karatedo, Kyokushinkai Karate was the premiere psycho school of pain. Them boyz was CRAZY!!!!!!!

Talk about "Beat downs-are-us!"

They had some huge cans of whoop azz!

Anybody ever deal with that organization?

Think your tuff?

Go fight in one of thier tournaments.

I think you have to break a baseball bat with your shin just to get into one of thier tournament.

I could be wrong about breaking the baseball thing but I thought I heard that. Anyway, Kyokushinkai Karate is way to tuff for my whimpy azz

[SevenStar]

I've never heard the baseball bat legend, but kyokushin is a rough system.

[Vapour]

An example of shotokan sparing .

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/japan/7/page04.html

[dezhen2001]

fought in some full contact stuff with the kyokushin guys beforer i changed to CMA - i respect them a lot :)

Nowadays i just do qigong :D

dawood

[fa_jing]

Another thing we hear is that Shotokan is missing some of the elements from the Okinawan Karate. I'm sure someone will say it was streamlined - but are there classes of techniques missing from Shotokan entirely?

[rogue]

Funakoshi wasn't the end-all Okinawan karate man, so it stands to reason that there were things missing. Add to that the changes made to make the art more Japanese and the performance art aspect of it and you have something that started out behind the eight ball.

With that said there are many in Shotokan that are trying to put the missing parts back into it and seem to be making headway. One thing I believe is that the Koreans stood a chance of "fixing" much that had gone wrong with Shotokan as they were trying to make arts that were superior to those of their Japanese masters. Sadly I think nationalism killed the effort.

['MegaPoint]

Shotokan is a good, solid karate style. It's an amalgam of Goju and Shorin, with the emphasis leaning towards Shuri Te (Shorin Ryu). It utilizes both principles of hard and soft, linear and circular. Due to the Japanization of it, a lot of straightforward Kendo philosophy has been added to it, or should I say supplanted the "softness" and circular action of ALL Okinawan karate. As a modern style, a Japanese style with some OKinawan influence, it is one of the best. Kyokushinkai borrows heavily from Shotokan, but uses boxing and Muay Thai principles too. Still it's kata are the newer Okinawan versions (like Heian for Pinan, so on) and it is still very Shotokan-ish.

There is a lot of good Shotokan Sensei still alive. Many have trained in Kobudo (Okinawan weapons arts) and Okinawan Karate (Kanazawa Kyoshi comes to mind). The linear aspect of Shotokan is a result of it being a Kumite (sparring) intensive style. Bunkai is not usually emphasized, and besides many sensei do not know the application of a movement. Many of our students (I do Shorin) migrated from Shotokan dojos. Their stances tend to be long and wide; very unnatural. Still, they are very good, fast and strong with good stamina. Those traits are necessary for competition but not necessarily for self-preservation. Much of the intent of KarateJutsu was omitted by Funakoshi for a reason. At the same time, Shotokan is still better than most styles of karate due to its very strong Okinawan fighting history. I gots nothin' but love for my Shotokan cousins.

Peace...

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by African Tiger

My comment to you is, uh that's a hell of an achievement for your instructor. But if he isn't at least 7th degree at 60 years old, then something is wrong. My sifu is 6 years younger than yours and he's no less than 9th Dan in 7 different arts :D But that's just me talking s-h-i-t.



Ok.... you see it takes a certain amount of time to get a Dan...
you can be good and start at a young age and get to a ceratain dan quicker and be done with it in the least amount of time possible. Or you can seriously train and perfect all of your techniques to really achieve a high level of training.

Or you can just buy your belt like some other people i know...
not you or your sifu, but people i seriously know:D
And yea pot is good;) :D :p :D j/k
But 9th Dan in 7 different arts???:confused:
I guess hes pretty **** good!!!

[neit]

any system that encourages everyone to participate will experience some shortcomings. as long as there are still some who train properly, all will be well :)

[Shaolin-Do]

"And yea pot is good j/k"
j/k?
wtf?
:)

Anyone who dismisses a stylist because they know karate, or tkd or whatnot, is ignorant. I have seen people from karate give tkd beat downs, tkd give beat downs to bjj, vice versa and such. Its the fighter more than anything, and the training. In all honesty tho, I have never seen a good TCMA vs. Karate or TKD.... I studied old school TKD (not the olympic watered down sh!t) and as much as I make fun of it, it gave me a good base to start from.
On another note, anyone heard of a style called "water boxing" ?

[MasterKiller]

Water Boxing (http://www.cmai.ws/WaterStyle.asp)

[fa_jing]

so what's the strategy the Shotokan fighter uses to get past the opponent's long weapons (like jabs or kicks) and throw the reverse punch?

[MasterKiller]

The one's I've sparred like to lure me in close by allowing me to punch them several times in the face.

[fa_jing]

I fought one guy that would wait for me to kick him in the head, take the blow on his facemask THWACK!, then rush in and try to take me down. I have it on tape and it is quite funny.

In all fairness, he practiced some other Okinawan Karate, not Shotokan.

And certainly in this case, it was the practicioner rather than the style.


:D

[Ben Gash]

Yea, they'e usually counter punchers. Back in my TKD days I was badly winded by a shotokan guy, couldn't breathe for two or three minutes. I've never been so glad to start screaming :D

[greendragon]

useless are those old karate macho blowhard guys that kiai every time they punch, etc. they are left in the dust of time. i can see them breaking bats on each others stupid shins, hahaha.

[dezhen2001]

i used to use "nagashi -uke", which is a soft sweeping parry as you step round offline to the side. Then i used to just punch or whatever depending on the situaiton :)

dawood

[TenTigers]

most Shotokan guys will jam the strike before it 'gets out of the gate' (jeet) or time it going back. I forget the Japanese term-help me out-maai-which I beleive combines no-mind with timing-meaning the practitioner is completely in the moment and as you initiate your attack, he drives right through you. This is seen in Kendo,Hsing-Yi, and Wing Chun, as wellas Hung-Ga and other arts. Pretty basic concept-intercepting intention. BTW, I also had a brief stint in Kyokushinkai, wish I did more, but my shins and ribs are thankfull I didn't. Great style for guys in their teens and early 20's for just plain spiritual toughening.

[Vapour]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_3034000/3034513.stm

Nuff Said.

[Budokan]

"Their forms don't follow, they are typically stiff and while they move their hips, they don't add leg power to it." --Andy Miles

I practice shotokan and I can tell you that if that's the case then these particular people aren't doing the technique correctly....

There's a sh*t load of leg power in shotokan techniques...assuming you are doing the technique correctly, of course.

As to the orignal post that started this thread, I think someone made a good observation about all the mcdojos. That's not only watered down the basics of shotokan but also many other martial arts.

And as for 24fightingchickens. :rolleyes: *Sigh* What more need be said? It's a shotokan site run by a former shotokan martial artist who HATES SHOTOKAN and EVERYTHING SHOTOKAN (except a few books written by one of his buddies). Yet, he runs a site about shotokan. I'll leave it to Freud to try and figure that one out....

Get into the site and read his diary about when he went to Japan to ostensibly study shotokan. It's very revealing re: his hatred of anything not American and his own naivete. Basically, it's pages upon pages of him b*tching about how Japan is different from America. Well, no sh*t, Einstein...!

Still, it's funny to read for the freak factor is nothing else...

Oh, and check out the place where he even rates his own web site. Kee-rist. What an anal retentive wanker....

But like I said, it's good for a laugh or two if you have a couple of six packs inside you.:p

[Shaolin-Do]

I think Im going to go pick fights at the kuk sool won school.
hehehee
;)