question for the TWC people (Phil Redmond)

[TjD]

in another thread:


Originally posted by Phil Redmond
TjD
We use the Tan sau for a circular attack on the same side of the attack. Of course our Tan is high, especially when used in a kwan sau. Here's an example;
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp

If you look at the dummy section 1-2 video you can see one way a Tan can be used.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#top
PR


i've always wondered why TWC holds their tan sau so high.

i'll share why (at least why i think) my school/lineage does not, in hopes of this not turning into a flame war, then ask a few questions.

as i've stated before, i see tan sau as a wedging hand if you can break the opponents structure (the goal), if not it serves good function in dispersing the incoming attack. for me, if my opponent's structure is weak, breaking it is superior than dealing with it in a more passive manner (as it gets the fight over quicker).

example:
i shoot my arm out there; if i can break the structure, i do and continue through with a strike. if there was nothing in the way i've already won. if there was something, it speeds up my strike if my wedging was good.
if the obstacle is too strong then i have to do something passive. shift and/or disperse, move out of the way, change the centerline.
(my personal take on the kuen kuit: receive what comes, escort what leaves, if theres an opening rush in).

since i see tan sau (and its deriviatives - biu sau, gan sau, etc) as wedging hands, i don't like to use tan sau where its wedging effect wont help propel my hand to the opponent (my take on use their force against them - for tan/biu/gan and friends at least). if my tan sau would be as high as shown in some of those pictures, my hand would be propelled above my opponent, causing myself to loose the centerline (as well as not continuing through with a hit). this is why for high range i prefer biu sau, because it still has the wedging function and would drive my hand inward allowing me to keep the centerline and also hit.


i'm interested in what you TWC guys think the purpose/function of tan sau is and how doing a tan sau so high accomplishes this. do you practice your tan sau this high in the first section of SLT?

i noticed you seem to keep your dummy higher than we do, is this a byproduct of keeping the tan saus so high, the other way around, or neither?

[Ultimatewingchun]

The tan sao is held high because it is best used to defend against strikes coming to the head/face area....

the wooden dummy is higher than some in order to simulate the height of a typical opponent in the world of today...ie. - at least 5'10'' or so...sometimes even higher.

By the way: ever notice that in a real fight or sparring situation that tan sao is rarely used (two exceptions being vs. a backfist or a spinning backfist)?

But with a pair of Butterfly swords in your hands...vs. a straight thrust coming at you by a dragon pole or another sword, or just about anything...tan/do the weapon and strike with your other sword at his hand that holds his weapon...and...voila...off with his fingers...Ouch!

[Phil Redmond]

TjD

The dummy in the Yip Man lineage should have the arms at the level of the extended arm of the individual. This is not just a prctice of TWC. I also learned this from Sifus not in TWC. In Duncan Leung's school the dummy was mounted high for the taller students. We had plywood floorboards near the dummy so that the shorter students could place them under the dummy leg until they reached the right height, (dummy arms parallel to your extended arms). The plans for the first dummy made in HK was given to William Cheung's brother by Yip Man to give to a woodworker. When the dummy was brought back for Yip Man to review he noticed that the arms were too close together. The arms were left like that so dummies after that were by to those specs. This is not simply some story told to me by William Cheung. I heard this from his brothers and sisters in Toronto who are aware of the HK dummy history also, (at least 2 of William Cheung's brothers studied with Yip Man). Anyway, our tan sao is used to cover the upper gate.

Yes, we do have a higher tan sao in our SLT. Here are examples of our forms. (These are my students in MI and in Toronto. Their forms are perfect. I saw a few things that need correcting so were making new videos).
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp#top
PR

[TjD]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The tan sao is held high because it is best used to defend against strikes coming to the head/face area....

thats well and good... but if you could give me some substance behind that statement it would be much more helpful :D so let me rephrase my question:
why is tan sau best used to defend against strikes coming to the head/face?
what is the theory behind this?
how does this come from the kuen kuit?
how does the structure of tan sau best apply itself to defending against strikes to the head/face?



Originally posted by Phil Redmond
TjD

The dummy in the Yip Man lineage should have the arms at the level of the extended arm of the individual. This is not just a prctice of TWC. I also learned this from Sifus not in TWC.

this is how we do it as well, the camera angle was probably messing with me, making it look higher :)

but anyways, back to the questions about tan sau. i see the applications, but why? why is this good wing chun? i gave an example of why i think biu sau is more appropriate at this level and why tan sau works better lower. any such reasons for doing it higher in TWC, mabye because of a different emphasis on theories or a different view about the nature of tan sau?

[Phil Redmond]

TWC faces the point of contact of an incoming blow. The TWC tan sao has the bend of the wrist parallel to the tip of the nose. The Wu sao is placed with the first knuckle in the thumb parallel to the tip of the nose covering a head shot. If you'll notice the bong sau to tan part of the video you'll see that the tan covers the uppergate. We also use a biu sao for the upper gate as well.
I hope that helped.
PR

[byond1]

hi phil,

and to add to that.....the first wing chun dummy plans came from the weng chun people in dai duk lan....yip man was close friends with chu chong man...and visited frequently to work on this pole form....and when he started teaching yip bo ching (who got the jong form first) he taught him hei jong......yip bo ching said he would pay for a dummy to be made....so y.m got plans drawn up...and had one made.....
brian

[TjD]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
TWC faces the point of contact of an incoming blow. The TWC tan sao has the bend of the wrist parallel to the tip of the nose. The Wu sao is placed with the first knuckle in the thumb parallel to the tip of the nose covering a head shot. If you'll notice the bong sau to tan part of the video you'll see that the tan covers the uppergate. We also use a biu sao for the upper gate as well.
I hope that helped.
PR


hrm... not really :D i definately see/understand how its used, but i'm wondering more how the principles and concepts of TWC apply to tan sau and how they lead to doing it that high.

[Phil Redmond]

Think of the tan do, jut do in the BJD form. Or, picture a circular punch coming to the right side of your head. You can either shift/step to the left and tan da.
PR

[Miles Teg]

Phil or UltimateWC
Do you also use Tan in the way TJD does?
ie. As a wedge to break through a persons structure or to dissipate/ redirect force that is coming straight in at you.

Or mainly to block strikes in a circular fasion? ie like if you are doing a tan da on someone who is throwing a hay maker and you turn the tan to the side in a circular way to meet the attacking arm.
If someone is throwing a straight punch would you circle the tan from the outside inwards to meet this force.

If this is how you use tansau in both cases can I assume that the tan basically stays in the same place in relation to your upper body so therefore it is the hips and the body's turning motion that move the tan sau from side to side in this circular motion?

[TjD]

unfortuantely, i don't think ive learned that section of the knives yet. i'm only up to the third. been carefully practicing with much sifu supervision, and i'm not in a huge rush to learn the whole thing - i'd rather learn the whole thing right.

either way, if i knew that sequence or application of it, i'm not sure that it would provide an understanding of the theories or concepts of why TWC does a tan sau at that height.

[Phil Redmond]

Or mainly to block strikes in a circular fasion? ie like if you are doing a tan da on someone who is throwing a hay maker and you turn the tan to the side in a circular way to meet the attacking arm.

Hi, our tan sau goes straight up the centerline and doesn't make any circular move even when turning to face the point of contact or not. It is the same when using a tan against a straigh punch. The same with our gan sao. It doesn't "chop" down and across like a karate lower block but rather drives up the centerline. As far a the TWC tan being "high" it is the only way to apply it on the wooden dummy form, (at least in ours). A lower tan wouldn't make contact with the upper arms on the dummy.
Phil

[Miles Teg]

Thanks. Understand now.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
The tan sao is held high because it is best used to defend against strikes coming to the head/face area....
...
By the way: ever notice that in a real fight or sparring situation that tan sao is rarely used (two exceptions being vs. a backfist or a spinning backfist)?
UWC, is this not odd?
Not being rude or trying to trip you up, just asking. If it's best used for those strikes, are you saying it is in fact useless cos no-one really uses it? In which case, why train it?

Also, how is the defensive motion you mention going to become a backfist? Are you talking about riding over/crushing through ('dissipating', for those of you who don't fight...!;)) your opponent's guard, feint or jab, or are you talking about following a retreating arm after a hook, cross or overhand? Or none of the above?!:D

{edit} Just noticed the 'vs. Forget the second question. First answered later in thread. Cheers.:)

[Mr Punch]

1) The tan on the first link from TJD (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp) shows the tan in front of the face, and eyes... I know you're supposed to feel your opponent, but is it not dangerous covering your own face...?... especially against uppercuts, bounce punches and low shots...

2) I assume the energy you are using with this tan is going forwards, but at this height, if you ride over/through the opponent's arm do you find yourself changing to a vertical fist, a backfist, or a sinking backfist, or what?

3) Also the tan in the chi sau clips is lower than that of the individual photos :confused: . Why?!

4) You mention in your post that the bend of the wrist was level with the tip of the nose, and yet there is no bend to your wrists in the pictures... they are completely straight... was this just a term to mean where the bend in the wrist is, without actually meaning the wrist should be bent?

5) Do you do free sparring/ringfighting/heavy chi sau, and if you do, how often do you find yourself doing tan?

Thanks for your help.

[Phil Redmond]

1) The tan on the first link from TJD shows the tan in front of the face, and eyes... I know you're supposed to feel your opponent, but is it not dangerous covering your own face...?... especially against uppercuts, bounce punches and low shots...

People ask me this all the time. Place you hand out in front of you face. Notice that I said out, (at an angle). Can you see? Anyway, you're not going to be staring at your hand, you'll be looking at your target. The tan is usually used against circular attacks like in the kwan sau you see in the last picture on the right in the 2nd row of pictures. See how the tan and the bong protect the head against a round punch or kick? A lower tan wouldn't work. This block is strong enough to stop a powerfull round kick or a punch. I hurt kickboxers legs with this block.
Phil

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Phil,


How are you?

You mentioned that TWC mainly uses the Tan against circular motions. Would you normally (or from time to time) use a Tan against a Hook or would it be more for haymaker type of punch?

In our art we never Tan a hook. A Ping would be more suitable for this situation but of course it all depends on where your hands were before the attack started I guess.


Regards,

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Jim,
You know you can't get inside a "real" hook punch...smile.
I'm talking about a haymaker.
Phil

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Phil!


Very good!

You often see people basically "obstructing" force with the ""dispersing" hand.

Glad you dont fall into that category. I will check out your web site to see some applications with the Tan against the haymaker!


Regards,

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond


Hi, our tan sau goes straight up the centerline and doesn't make any circular move even when turning to face the point of contact or not. It is the same when using a tan against a straigh punch. The same with our gan sao. It doesn't "chop" down and across like a karate lower block but rather drives up the centerline. As far a the TWC tan being "high" it is the only way to apply it on the wooden dummy form, (at least in ours). A lower tan wouldn't make contact with the upper arms on the dummy.
Phil

As far is the Gan sao is concerned, why does it drive up the centerline? I can see how that's good for lifting a mid-line kick, but what about against a body punch? It seems more effective to me for it to sweep across in this case. Also, the Chueng-style teacher I observed applied the gan sao to the dummy in a horizontal fashion, more like the sweeping or circular/turning motion. When I asked him about it, he said it was different on the wooden dummy than in application. Do you agree with that?

[Phil Redmond]

Very good question. Please look at the 5th movie on chi sao.

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi

Notice how my student faces the point of contact to stop the circular punch to the body with the gan sao. We always try to face the point of contact so that our body is behind the block. Proper footwork is necessary of course.
Phil
p.s. Gan means to plough. In TWC we use the gan like a plough that moves forward in a field. I have yet to see a farmer plough his field sideways.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Travis: Bil and lop DO WORK BETTER against headshots than tan, although tan will at times suffice...especially against blows coming in at that "gray" area (in terms of height) in between the head and chest.

[fa_jing]

I viewed the clip, Phil - good demonstration of what you are saying. Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. I can see that a stance turn is used, like you said to face the point of contact - even as that contact is swept to the side through the rotation of the stance. I think the difference in your line is that the wrist is rotated so that the palm faces out to the side, and there is a little lift in the motion. We have a similar motion, but higher up (Fut sao? Fak sao?).

[Phil Redmond]

Hi fa-jing,
We also have a fak, (swinging arm). The difference in the gan and fak for us is that the gan stops at a certain point. If it continues upwards it is now a fak sau. Also we face our palm outwards so that the contact made is with the flesh and not the bone. TWC never uses bone to bone contact.
Phil

[byond1]

>>>>>>>>i think victor mentions my prefered (safest) method...biu sao....or at least biu is the best term to desrcibe the motion , that most people would be famillur with....of cource tun has its use for covering the high gate.....

jim---what is a "ping"??..

b

[TjD]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Travis: Bil and lop DO WORK BETTER against headshots than tan, although tan will at times suffice...especially against blows coming in at that "gray" area (in terms of height) in between the head and chest.

if biu is superior for that height (which is what i think), what reasons are there, or principles of TWC cause the tan sau to be practiced that high?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Travis:

In terms of unarmed combat...tan sao works better than any other technique against backfists and spinfists coming at the head/face area, in my opinion....So you definitely need tan sao in your arsenal in my opinion. Also, if your hands are completely down in a situation where you were sneak-attacked...and a round or even a straight punch is coming...tan would probably cover the line of defense quicker then bil or lop.

But with two butterfly swords in your hands...or two sticks...two tonfa...one sword...one stick...etc...

tan is a VERY valuable technique...do to the longer range of distance available to you, coupled with the shape of of the weapon in your hand (narrow - with no elbow joint to manuever).

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Very good question. Please look at the 5th movie on chi sao.

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi

Notice how my student faces the point of contact to stop the circular punch to the body with the gan sao. We always try to face the point of contact so that our body is behind the block. Proper footwork is necessary of course.
Phil
p.s. Gan means to plough. In TWC we use the gan like a plough that moves forward in a field. I have yet to see a farmer plough his field sideways.

Hi Phil,

In the gan sao video, it appears as if Ryan is raising his left shoulder when doing the gan sao, is this proper TWC technique?
I always thought that the shoulders should be kept sunken at all times and not raised, as that weakens your "root".

[Phil Redmond]

Ryan's shoulder should be down. Videos don't alway turn out perfect.
PR

[Jim Roselando]

Phil,


Can you please tell me the Chinese name for Central-Line?


Regards,

[yuanfen]

You know you can't get inside a "real" hook punch...smile
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think one can--depends on many things including structure, timing, motion and practice IMO.
No question that a hook can be devastating and should not be underestimated- but we shouldnt punt on the inside.

[Phil Redmond]

Can you please tell me the Chinese name for Central-Line?
Hoi Jung Sin/Sien
Phil

[byond1]

jim
could you please tell be what a "ping" is?

[Jim Roselando]

B,


Ping is Level!

Similar to Lan in YMWC.


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Yat Lo Ping On!

[t_niehoff]

It can also mean "combined".

Terence

[Phil Redmond]

LDBK Sei Ping Ma.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond


People ask me this all the time. Place you hand out in front of you face. Notice that I said out, (at an angle). Can you see? Anyway, you're not going to be staring at your hand, you'll be looking at your target. ...
Phil
Thank you Phil... sorry to backtrack a bit...

I didn't think you were going to be staring at your hand, but when I tried this way, I did find that it was still slowing me up in response to low, or upcoming strikes, esp when my opponent had dynamically disconnected the bridges to set up such a shot...

Obviously it works for you... maybe I should practise this way more... but I still think it's a bit of a flaw...

So... on to questions 2-5!!!:D Cheers!