5 Stages of Combat - 4 Victor

[reneritchie]

Victor,

On a non HFY related thread, I thought you might be interested in Yuen Kay-San's first 5 methods, (first recorded privately in China in the 1930s and printed in HK in the 70s). They're as follows:

Join (connect with the opponent's bridges)
Intercept (cut off the opponent's offense)
Sink (destroy the opponent's defense)
Dart (deliver your offense)
Stick (maintain contact to determine continuation)

Not sure if this may help with your process of looking for similarities.

[Phil Redmond]

TWC has;

Pre contact
Contact
Exchange
Pursuit
Disengage/Retreat, (not more than 2-3 steps then re-enter)
Phil

[J]

Phil,

Why would one disengage/retreat? This would place you back at square one and require re-contact. It would be like beginning the fight anew.

Is this a formal concept of TWC or something your sifu or you believe? What is the reasoning for disengaging?

I'm not a wing chunner, but I'm interested in the concepts. It's interesting to see the different flavors within wing chun.

Thanks,
J

[Phil Redmond]

Phil, Why would one disengage/retreat? This would place you back at square one and require re-contact. It would be like beginning the fight anew.

You are %100 right. I was waiting for someone to respond to this...lol. This is used ONLY if you're overpowered and have to re-group. I hope no one here says they could never be overpowered/overwhelmed. I think it really depends on the psyche of the individual or things like a sucker punch that caught you unaware, or blows thrown by more than one person. The theory is that you try to avoid this senario but if it happens you step back using a fak (sweeping) sau, then re-enter and make contact again.
Phil

[reneritchie]

Phil,

While not one of the 12 methods, we have a rather ironic saying something along the lines of "never go back; if you have to go back, go back faster and reset."

[captain]

i love the "textbook" way some of you talk about combat/fights.
my experience is three .eyes/verbal..exchange....and getting
out of there.i guess it can be cleaned up the way you guys
talk of it,but it still seems as though fo most of you,a fight
is theory or sparring.

rene,why do you study sum nung wck now,and not yks?


russ.

[reneritchie]

Cap'n,

First, please think about what you post, "little comments" like that won't engender good faith or encourage people to answer or extend themselves to you.

Second, as Sum Nung called his art after Yuen Kay-San, in memory and recognition of his achievement, his students, including my sifu, began calling their art after him.

[captain]

rene,you are wrong to take exception to my "little comments".
what i said, was merely an observation on the clean way
most of you talk about fighting.i have used ma's in real fights,
and none were perfect looking, textbook moves.

dont be so eager to put down someone who not only enjoys
your books/opinions very much,but who has also sought
your advice on matters of martial diplomacy.


russell.

[reneritchie]

Cap'n,

Oil exploration can be dirty, hands on work, but the theory is very clean, text book geology.

(And that should be all the more reason to consider my words).

[captain]

r and r,i do believe you are now moving into an area known
as "eccentric resonse".if i say,"rene,you are wrong,my comment
is genuine",and "i dig ya work".but you still gripe to me,well
sit on it![as the fonz said.]



russ.

[Phil Redmond]

Captain,
Some of us here do have actual fighting experience.
How's this for real fighting? This NVA flag was taken after hand to hand combat and I'm not including the many fights in the "hood" and as a bouncer I've had. I do know a little bit about fighting for my life.
Phil

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/photos/photo59.jpg

[reneritchie]

I'm happy you like my work, but does that mean all I'm allowed to do is immediately answer any question you have, and then agree with anything you type? No. I gave you my opinion on your comments, as you gave me yours on ours. It's a mature discussion. If you're disagreeing with me, certainly I can disagree with you. So, again, please consider my words, I wouldn't offer them if I didn't give a darn.

(And I'm already sitting).

(And the 'eccentric response' was an analogy to help with your first set of comments).

[captain]

rene,i dont demand that you respond in an instant,and that
you blindly agree with me,lest i throw a tantrum.but your
"little comments" comment,certainly,to me,implied that i
was purposely getting your goat.[t].i was not.i as simply
stating an observation on the clean way most of you talk
about fights.youve cetainly grown very grump in recent days,
i suggest florida!!!
r

[reneritchie]

No worries dude.

[yuanfen]

Captain sez:
youve cetainly grown very grump in recent days,
i suggest florida!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Been there- done that and then ran away from sand flies-fleas, chiggers, fireants, mosquitous. poison oak and ivy, rattlers,
water moccasins, copperheads, coral snakes, ticks, humidity,
alligators etc---
of course in the blasted English drizzle or Rene's perma frost(??)
Florida can sound good. But having been there-ech!(But you have to go outside Miami or Orlando's Disneyworld to find florida)

[reneritchie]

Joy,

The perma frost has melted but we're getting days on end of rain. I would go to Florida, but there are too many darn Quebecers there. :P

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rene and Captain: When Phil started talking about going backwards...Rene responded with something about using the 12 methods...and don't go back...etc.

and that is when all the fuss began...since Captain seemed to be taking exception to Rene's somewhat longwinded (12 methods!)response...topped off with the "never go back" idea...

While I have grown fond of you, Rene, I have to side with Captain on this...simplicity...simplicity...a punch is just a punch....

You go backwards WHEN YOU HAVE TO...or else the other guy will be all over you!.....ie.- he throws a sucker punch you're not ready for...or through no fault but your own - his attack is almost upon you and there really is not time other that to get out of there for a moment and regroup....etc.

Rene needs more sparring and Captain needs some decaf...okay, fellas?

[reneritchie]

Victor,

1) Rene responded saying that while it wasn't one of the 12 methods (which was the subject of this thread) we did have something that covered this aspect.

2) Reading is fundamental.

3) Rene is never long winded, he is clear and takes pains to make his responses accessible to people of different reading/ma skill levels.

4) Rene never topped off anything with any "never go back" idea, he topped it off with a "sometimes you have to back" idea.

5) Reading is still fundamental.

6) Rene is happy Victor is growing fond of him. Rene can't help it, he's both endearing and compelling.

7) Victor is correct and repeating Rene's comments more long-windedly than Rene did about having to go back sometimes.

8) Rene typically spars several hours a week, sometimes considerably more.

9) Rene prefers to be underestimated, so please ignore #8.

10) Reading, remarkably, is yet still fundemental.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Joy,

The perma frost has melted but we're getting days on end of rain. I would go to Florida, but there are too many darn Quebecers there. :P
Ahem. The permafrost never melts. That's why it's permafrost.

So soon after I was admiring your precision. But, your position's still pretty good. :p Work on your timing. :D

[reneritchie]

Must be global warming. Yeah. That's it. Enough with the hairspray, people!

[Ultimatewingchun]

The words underestimated and Rene ...should never be used in the same sentence.

[byond1]

"AYE"...

b

[yuanfen]

Permafrost? my Malamute howls- "north to Alaska and beyond"!!

[jesper]

Hello Rene

Actually I think there are 6 stages. The last being run away when the fight is over :)

[captain]

Phil,much respect to you.my uncle fought in vietnam,and is now
very poorly.he insists it was something that he picked up during
his time spent in vietnam.

all i was saying was this.i find it amusing [not in a sarcastic way]
how some of you talk about fighting.in a clean,textbook manner.
in two rumbles [50's term] i had,i used judo,and the moves
were scrappier than you would find in a judo book.that was all.
after the fights i was able to think about what happend [and why]
but at the time it wasnt."ok,i do believe this is stage one,my
goodness he's grabbed me,therefore i am now in stage two,yikes
a lordy, i better implement stage four"i just did what i did fast
and mean.[though i am not mean!!!!]

rene,you are very lucky to have had [literally] a chinese master
walk by as you and your bud were sparing on your front lawn.
this was divinity at work,boyo!some of us are not so lucky,but
you have gone grumpy.


uwc,would you be worried if i said i dont even drink coffee!!!!

russ.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Russ:

If you don't drink coffee you're a better man than I.....

[yuanfen]

I thought coffee was the 7th stage of combat!
Gee wrong again?
Tea better?

[KenWingJitsu]

You absolutely need to retreat sometimes when things are not going your way. COmmon sense and real fighting experience will tell you this. You never whan tot get caught up in a swinging brawlfest. If you are, take a step back.

Also, stepping back can "lure" him into stepping forward again, which is your trap for intercepting him. If you intercept him, you're way ahead of him this time. Wouldnt have happened if you didnt step back.......and yes, I've done it 'for real'.

[hunt1]

Never step straight back. Always step back on an angle.

[AztecaPreist]

Gee wrong again? please explain how this fits into the 7th stage?