View Full Version : difference between traditional and modern wushu
Shaolin Dude
05-12-2003, 11:16 PM
how can you tell besides modern tend to be more flashier?
GunnedDownAtrocity
05-12-2003, 11:20 PM
i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it
joedoe
05-12-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by Shaolin Dude
how can you tell besides modern tend to be more flashier?
There is also the power generation. It does take a practised eye to pick this up though.
Serpent
05-12-2003, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it
This is the best post I've read here in months!
:D
I feel a new sig coming on!
SevenStar
05-13-2003, 12:03 AM
that's hi-larious, knee slappin, p!ss in your pants comedy!
how can you tell besides modern tend to be more flashier?
At the highest levels you wouldn't be able to unless you specifically knew the routine. The biggest difference is that modern wushu people will tend to focus a lot more on competition, so how they train will be determined more by what the judges are looking for. This can be good and bad. If the judges are well trained and criterea for competition is well thought out, you can see a lot of good martial arts. But then you have situations like in China today where the "powers that be" require these bizzare moves that hadn't been seen in modern or traditional wushu forms previously. So the pro athletes sacrifice a lot of basic technique to do some uglyass triple balance that serves no purpose other than being hard to do.
Traditional seems to have opposite problems, where there'll be people that hide from competition so that no one can critisize what they do and they can continue in their own little fantasy world of what's good and bad. Makes lots of excuses to cover up a lack of skill.
Most critisisms seem to stem from "communists are evil, so since modern wushu was created under them, it must be bad" type of logic. Then they just attribute anything done poorly by both camps to modern wushu.
Christopher M
05-13-2003, 01:21 PM
Modern (http://www.beijingwushuteam.com/video/hanjing2.mov) wushu baguazhang form, from Beijing Wushu Team (http://www.beijingwushuteam.com/).
Traditional (http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/videos/bagwalinked.MPG) baguazhang form, from White Crane Institute (http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/).
These should look spectacularly different to you.
The idea that the differences disappear at high level of skill doesn't seem to be true with a bit of research.
MasterKiller
05-13-2003, 01:27 PM
You got any examples less than 37 MB?
Christopher M
05-13-2003, 01:56 PM
Traditional (http://gnosia.tripod.com/bagua.wmv) baguazhang form, from White Crane Institute (http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com).
Just the first three palm changes (Three Old Palms) from the previous clip, and lower quality (1.22MB).
shaolin kungfu
05-13-2003, 03:09 PM
I couldn't tell the difference. Which one was modern wushu?
Mr. Horse
05-13-2003, 03:13 PM
There is a big difference. How wushu and kung fu generate power, how they move, and etc. Wushu does a running around. In the jumps, wushu lands in a way that is damaging to the knees. A lot of the weapons are lighter. Nothern looks close in some ways but are NOT the same.
It is like Tang Soo Do (Traditional) and Sport karate (modern). Most of the kicks and punches are the same but there are very much different.
Originally posted by Brad
At the highest levels you wouldn't be able to unless you specifically knew the routine. The biggest difference is that modern wushu people will tend to focus a lot more on competition, so how they train will be determined more by what the judges are looking for. This can be good and bad. If the judges are well trained and criterea for competition is well thought out, you can see a lot of good martial arts. But then you have situations like in China today where the "powers that be" require these bizzare moves that hadn't been seen in modern or traditional wushu forms previously. So the pro athletes sacrifice a lot of basic technique to do some uglyass triple balance that serves no purpose other than being hard to do.
Traditional seems to have opposite problems, where there'll be people that hide from competition so that no one can critisize what they do and they can continue in their own little fantasy world of what's good and bad. Makes lots of excuses to cover up a lack of skill.
Most critisisms seem to stem from "communists are evil, so since modern wushu was created under them, it must be bad" type of logic. Then they just attribute anything done poorly by both camps to modern wushu.
Good Post!!! and well put!! But for Traditional this dose happen a lot, but not for all schools. Like my school, we do goto NBL, and IMAC and NASKA tournaments. and do very well at them, we have never lost to Team Evergreen that got all the hipe form the "MAGS" not to long ago.
~Jason
Mr. Horse
05-13-2003, 03:26 PM
"Traditional seems to have opposite problems, where there'll be people that hide from competition so that no one can critisize what they do and they can continue in their own little fantasy world of what's good and bad. Makes lots of excuses to cover up a lack of skill.
Most critisisms seem to stem from "communists are evil, so since modern wushu was created under them, it must be bad" type of logic. Then they just attribute anything done poorly by both camps to modern wushu."
I strongly disagree with this. A lot of traditionalist don't compete, becuase they just don't compete. There are many masters and students of masters that are just as fast and as clean as the moderns guys, but just don't compete. Plus you have to remember MOST of the KUNG Fu out there is garbage. My teacher told me a lot of the master in America were junior students when they left Hong KOng and all of a sudden they are masters when they got there.
It is like taking a year and a half of College Physics and moving to another country and saying you're a professor.
joedoe
05-13-2003, 03:35 PM
I can't speak for anyone else but the reason why I stopped competing in forms competition was that after a couple I realised that it wasn't why I was training kung fu. I was not training to perform or to look good. I was training to learn the art and to learn the fighting technique. Forms competition took my focus away from that. I have at least 2 training brothers who quit forms competition for exactly the same reasons.
From experience, there are a lot of traditional folks out there that don't compete, don't demonstrate, don't show anything...and they talk a lot about what is and is not traditional.
For one thing, the judging in many Contemporary Wushu events is WRONG. If you READ the IWuF rules and then look at how the scoring goes, you can see that many times the judges do NOT follow the rules. They do NOT give appropriate deductions for lack of power, lack of correct focus, incorrect martial spirit. Those are ALL in the scoring standards. In fact, those items make up 4 out of 10 points. 6 out of 10 are technical - as in basics.... Level of difficulty hits everywhere.
The running you see is NOT correct. It is done to speed up and cover up problems...but the deductions are not made.
The weight of the weapons...well, until recently, there was no requirement for weapon weight. There IS now. The international scene has not made it there yet....
But, if no one MAKES you use a heavier weapon, then you will use what others use and win with. It corrects itself when deductions start being made.
Flashy garbage....now here is where you are beginning to be onto something.
The older compulsories were fine and fit with what Brad wrote.
The new ones that came out in 1999 are NOT. They have some very hard moves...but they do not flow well and they have moves in the routine that would NEVER be in a routine but WOULD be used in a class as a basic drill for balance or flexibility training.
If they continue in the vein of the new routines since 1999, then just about everything everyone says negative about Contemporary Wushu WILL come to be true....but it is NOT there yet.
The bad thing is that there are a lot of new school folks in China trying to make a name ...but the Cultural Revolution broke a lot of the levels of respect and links to the past. They CAN be rebuilt...but will it happen?
Christopher M
05-13-2003, 03:58 PM
I think people are getting side-tracked trying to discuss what is good and what is bad.
You can recognize that two things are different without going down this road.
Mr. Horse
My teacher told me a lot of the master in America were junior students when they left Hong KOng and all of a sudden they are masters when they got there.
Please do only point out the US, you need to add the world to this! Not to long ago poeple fled to Hong Kong to get away from Communism. Not all of them where Masters either. I can think of 1 student that moved from Hong Kong to Brazil, that now claims to be the GM of the system, when a elder brother of the same school lives in the US.
Please, look at the WORLD when looking at this problem! It's not just the US!
Sorry for the Off Topic!
~Jason
firepalm
05-13-2003, 05:37 PM
Contemporary wushu is for the most part intended for competition & performance, therefore the focus in training is different.
Traditional wushu (kung fu) is supposedly intended for health & application and thus the focus in training is different from contemporary.
Both schools still do strikes & kicks and traditional tenets such as speed, power, focus, etc... should be present. Contemporary wushu however also pays attention to qualities such as visual aesethics & difficulty. And as competitive forms (taolu) is the essential focus of contemporary wushu all training works towards this.
Traditional on the other hand is again supposedly geared towards application of the striking, kicking skills (as well as seizing & grappling) and thus the training should encompass application training, the manner of which can vary greatly from one traditional style to another. As application of such skills is not a prerequisite for the contemporary wushu athlete generally application training is either absent or a second priority.
Many traditional schools it should be noted in my humble opinion are no different then contemporary wushu schools when they focus most of their training on forms & do not work on application training (this is actually more common then one might think).
Another primary difference is the direction of the two respectives divisions; traditional styles are often focused on preservation of their respective styles. Contemporary wushu seems to be going in the direction of increasing the levels of difficulty (which in recent times seems to translate to more acrobatics).
Personally I see both traditional & contemporary (as well other aspects such as San Da San Shou) as just being different aspects of the broader spectrum of Chinese martial arts.
My two bits!:cool:
I agree with a lot of what firepalm said. But I'd like to point out that the differences are not in the arts themselves, but what the individual focuses on. Most focus entirely on forms competition or entirely on fighting, but there's a few who can make both work together.
Traditional baguazhang form, from White Crane Institute.
Just the first three palm changes (Three Old Palms) from the previous clip, and lower quality (1.22MB).
This isn't exactly a great reference to point out the differences between the two styles. Bagua is Bagua. That may show the difference between a person who focuses on health and someone who focuses on performance, but no real stylistic difference. There's lots of Bagua forms, some moves/methods intended to be practiced slow, some fast... there's some traditional forms that are quick and spining with extreme highs and lows like the tournement video. There's good Bagua and bad Bagua and how well the judges are trained and know Bagua is going to determine who wins.
Here in the states all Bagua would be lumped together in competition... don't know how China runs things now.
NorthernShaolin
05-13-2003, 08:42 PM
The difference between the tradition and Modern Wu Shu has been discussed somewhat in the shaolin forurm already.
Christopher M
05-13-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Brad
But I'd like to point out that the differences are not in the arts themselves, but what the individual focuses on.
This isn't exactly a great reference to point out the differences between the two styles. Bagua is Bagua.
That was part of my point in posting those videos.
The above, following some research, turns out to be patently untrue.
Those two clips have basically nothing in common whatsoever.
I don't believe there's any traditional forms even remotely like the one shown in the "modern" clip. Why don't you link up a video of one, or perhaps state the lineage one is from?
First off, you MUST distinguish between what is done as Contemporary Wushu for international competition and what is available and seen in China. They ARE two different things.
In IWuF competition, there ARE more than the standard set of compulsories...but in actual competition, anything other than the standard compulsories is put in an open category and has very little to do with who wins.
So, if you are talking at that level, you have Changquan, Nanquan, 42 Taijiquan for barehand. Dao, Jian, Nan Dao, and 42 Taijijian for short weapons, Staff, Spear, and Nan Gun for long weapons. There is no long Taiji weapon.
So, you have a total of 10 routines that are used for almost all international competition.
In China, they do have more divisions...and these DO include traditional sets as well.
The newer routines such as the Bagua that is bandied about is just one of many newer routines. It is no more and no less valid than ANY new routine from any traditional or non-traditional source. The idea here was to make a generic Bagua set and then those interested would go into detail for the complete Traditional Bagua (and sometimes this happens...sometimes it doesn't)
Some new sets are good - some aren't - in any flavor.
The new routines are SUPPOSED to look at the various flavors of the style they are from and then combine the parts that are the same and then add the special or unique parts from the various sources into one routine.
Sometimes this works well. Other times, the person putting things together doesn't do it as well and you end up with conficting approaches in one routine.
But, guess what, this happens and has happened in Traditional sets and in Traditional sets that are created by modern day teachers. For example, I have seen the students of one 100% traditional teacher doing a staff form. The teacher does both northern and southern and the staff form that he put together for them combines techniques from both sources.
It is a very bad routine and is totally confused...and would NOT work well for staff use. However, it is NOT a PRC Contemporary Wushu set....it is simply a bad routine.
Same for the other wushu sets. For example, the Contemporary Sun style routine is VERY similar in technique to the traditional. Sun Jinayun has stated a dislike for it - but her only complaints boiled down to a jump kick instead of a step kick...when any step kick in any art COULD be executed as a jump kick and Chen Style Paochui DOES have jumps....and then her other complaint really boils down to "They mucked about with my dad's routine". Neither complaint really makes much sense....and the routine is well done.
However, the Yang style routine (not the 88 but the other new one) is just plain bad. There are movements in it that are not found in ANY Yang lineage nor in any other Taijiquan. It doesn't flow, and they did NOT have assistance from ANYONE that really did Yang style in creating it.
Is this a Modern issue? I would say no. It is an issue of a garbage routine.
Many of the things that people state about Modern wushu - the extended stances, the extended punches, low stances, etc... are actually part of the Traditional Chaquan (Zha quan) system as taught by people such as Wang Ziping. However, the newer Beijing Team folks seem to be takiing things to an extreme and getting out there. At the same time, the Shanghai contingent and others tend to adhere to the traditional ways...and often lose in competition - since many of the judges are trained in - you guessed it - Beijing.
But, since the ties in many of the routines are back to an extreme form of Traditional northern, many southern stylists and even some northern stylists from places where southern fist rules (i.e. Hong Kong in particular) view it as wrong.
The intent of what the Modern routines are SUPPOSED to be is NOT different. The execution due to politics and the desire to win competitions...and then poorly put together sets from less experienced teachers is what is making it the more dancelike thing.
Then you have the training.
If your main thing is to compete in Taolu, you will avoid fighting a lot...fight training leads to injuries and such things mean you don't win in Form. So they don't do it. Some come out of their training and go back and train the old methods...others don't...but say they did.
I will stay with traditional! Less politics!!! IMHO Other then all the new schools that are founded by video!
~Jason
Christopher M
05-14-2003, 12:18 PM
GLW - I'm simply making a distinction between two pointedly different sorts of things.
It doesn't seem to me that anything you said challenged that.
norther practitioner
05-14-2003, 12:37 PM
I will stay with traditional! Less politics!!! IMHO Other then all the new schools that are founded by video!
Are you serious?
Xebsball
05-14-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by tao of wushu
I can think of 1 student that moved from Hong Kong to Brazil, that now claims to be the GM of the system, when a elder brother of the same school lives in the US.
True, i know the story too :cool:
GLW - I'm simply making a distinction between two pointedly different sorts of things.
It doesn't seem to me that anything you said challenged that.
I'm still having a little trouble seeing exactly what you mean. Is it the routine itself that's different than traditional Bagua? If so, specifically what techniques in the form are not found in any traditional Bagua? Or is it the way the individual in the clip is interpreting the form that makes it different than traditional Bagua? I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely curious. Our school has our own Bagua competition form put together by my teacher, so I haven't seen the "official" competition form. I've seen my own teacher's style Bagua, Fu style(online and demoed at a tournement), and a few other modern wushu competitors who all looked different from each other and different from the two clips you posted online. Then there's the random stuff seen in tournements. And Jet Li in The One of course, but he's not exactly a Bagua guy :D
BTW, I don't have too many clips of Bagua that I can still find online. The only one's I have are Fu style, which I think look as different from the one you describe as traditional as the competition one. You can see a very quick pace, lot's of spins, and some movements I would imagine would be done much lower if the guy performing was young.
Bagua Dragon Palm (Old Fu Style): http://bagua_2.tripod.com/movie2-5.wmvhttp://bagua_2.tripod.com/movie2-5.wmv
The link for the Fu style stuff: http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=vids;action=display;num=1050559904
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I will stay with traditional! Less politics!!! IMHO Other then all the new schools that are founded by video!
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*cough cough* wing chun *cough cough*
Mr. Horse
05-14-2003, 02:46 PM
Hey man. I am sorry but I don't fully get your point (respectfully). It seems that the modern stuff is garbage from your statement.
You say that the bagua was made generic, but then you say each stylist adds he/her own flavor. I am sorry. M aybe I am reading it wrong.
I am not saying some modern wushu isnt still close to the traditional counterpart, but it still is different.
The points:
First, the compulsories are there for competition – mainly for ease of judging. Their basics are not supposed to be any different than the styles they represent. (i.e. if it is Changquan, the basics, spirit, power, speed, and intent should be found in any number of Traditional northern routines).
Second, some of the intent has been ‘modified’ by bad judging – judges that do not score according to the set down standards. People being what they are, will do what gets them the highest score to win so ..one change begets two and so on.
But, that is the implementation and NOT the design of Modern Wushu.
Third, the newer generation of routines IS getting away from the roots and if things don’t change, Modern Wushu WILL become a gymnastic dance….but not yet. The newer generation of teachers and the folks putting together the routines do NOT have the depth of the older generation and are not going to the older generation for advice…and it is showing.
Fourth, once you get away from the compulsories, the routines are supposed to be compilations of the core techniques and most ‘flavorful’ techniques from the style they represent. They are NOT generally an entire style but do serve as a starting point for those styles. They may do things different from this or that school but in general, if you take any single technique from one of those routines, you CAN find a Traditional routine where it came from and where it is done the way the Modern routine is done. Unfortunately, some teachers get them wrong. Case in point, many can’t even teach 24 Posture Taijiquan correctly.
Fifth, most of the Modern folks specialize. Not only do they specialize in Taolu or Sanshou, but in Taolu (form) they specialize in a very small area…it is all about competing and winning. If you specialize in 4 or 5 routines, you do those well but that is not much. If you do not train power, reaction, and the other components of Sanda (fighting) you will not be able to use what you do. This is NOT a Modern vs. Traditional thing. It is just a statement that you have to add to your training to use it...and many in both areas do NOT train how to use it.
Sixth, you have to separate the performer from the routine. The routine may be spelled out one way and the performer does it another…and gets publicized for it. They are still doing the form differently from what is specified. In my professional world, that is known as “Not meeting Spec….” and you typically reject it at some point.
So...aside from the age of the routines, there is NOT supposed to be that much difference between Traditional and Modern...but there may be...due to the way people do it.
Brad
*cough cough* wing chun *cough cough*
LOL :D ok ok !!! I gess it's all in the circles you associate in then!!
~Jason:D
joedoe
05-14-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by tao of wushu
LOL :D ok ok !!! I gess it's all in the circles you associate in then!!
~Jason:D
Actually, traditional kung fu is rife with politics. They just do a better job of keeping it quiet :D
joedoe
Actually, traditional kung fu is rife with politics. They just do a better job of keeping it quiet
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! Joedoe, i'm doing the best I can to keep it quiet man!!!;) :D
~Jason
Christopher M
05-14-2003, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Brad
Is it the routine itself that's different than traditional Bagua?
Yes, among other things.
If so, specifically what techniques in the form are not found in any traditional Bagua?
Almost none of it is from bagua. The parts where she freezes in a posture are ostensibly from traditional bagua forms, the rest is the exact same methods you would see in all the other modern forms, and in no traditional bagua form.
Or is it the way the individual in the clip is interpreting the form that makes it different than traditional Bagua?
This is also true.
Here's the Fu (http://bagua_2.tripod.com/movie2-3.wmv) video you mentioned. It seems quite obviously akin to the Cheng traditional video I posted previously and not at all like the modern one, so I'm not sure what your point is.
Almost none of it is from bagua. The parts where she freezes in a posture are ostensibly from traditional bagua forms, the rest is the exact same methods you would see in all the other modern forms, and in no traditional bagua form.
Going back and looking at it, it really doesn't look much like any bagua form I've ever seen done by modern wushu competition either. Maybe that's why my teacher put together his own routine :confused: I can't see the individual techniques too well as the video quality is very very low.
Here's the Fu video you mentioned. It seems quite obviously akin to the Cheng traditional video I posted previously and not at all like the modern one, so I'm not sure what your point is.
That is not the clip I was talking about. I was talking about 2-5 looking very different than what the guy doing basics was doing. My point is that someone doing basics, and someone doing a complicated "flashy" form aren't very good reference points for showing the difference between too styles. I'll try to find some better modern wushu Bagua clips for people to look at. It just seems like you tried to find and "extreme" case from both styles... But I'm saying that looking at that Bagua clip 2-5 with all the spins and quick "running" very little of it is found in that traditional clip you posted before too.
Here's one I found. It's 7 meg so I'm still downloading it, but I think he won that year, so it should at least be decent, lol
http://www.wushucentral.com/videos/competitions/2000%20Nationals/internal/Brandon%20Sugiyama%20-%20bagua.mpg
A few modern wushu forms to compare:
Yuan Wen Ching's Chang Quan (http://www.wushucentral.com/videos/yanglike/1987%20China%20Nationals/yuanwenqing_changquan.mpg)
Nan Quan Compulsory (http://www.wushucentral.com/videos/yanglike/Compulsories/compulsory_nanquan.mpg)
Chen 56 form (http://www.wushucentral.com/videos/yanglike/Compulsories/chen_56_taijiquan.mpg)
Christopher M
05-15-2003, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Brad
That is not the clip I was talking about.
That's the standard Fu form, so I assumed that's what you meant as you didn't otherwise specify.
I'm saying that looking at that Bagua clip 2-5 with all the spins and quick "running" very little of it is found in that traditional clip you posted before too.
The clip I posted wasn't the standard from which no traditional bagua may deviate, it was simply a good example showing the obvious differences between two very different kinds of things.
The Fu style has a peculiar approach to training spinning and rapid footwork energy. While it may be odd, it's nothing like the modern wushu form.
it really doesn't look much like any bagua form I've ever seen done by modern wushu competition either. Maybe that's why my teacher put together his own routine
I can't, of course, speak for what your teacher has done. The one I linked up, as I noted, is from the Beijing Wushu team, and is itself a national winner. It seems to me this is a reasonable source.
I thought it would be a good idea to choose very standard forms for comparison rather than considering some of the peculiar developments (eg. Fu).
My point is that someone doing basics, and someone doing a complicated "flashy" form aren't very good reference points for showing the difference between too styles.
I didn't make such a comparison. The linked palm changes I linked up aren't "basics", they're the formwork you do as a traditional bagua stylist. The modern wushu set I linked up isn't a set someone works on when doing "advanced" or "complicated' work, it's a set someone works on if they happen to be doing modern wushu.
Apples and oranges. Not apples at two different stages of ripeness.
That's the standard Fu form, so I assumed that's what you meant as you didn't otherwise specify.
I thought I had a link directly to that specific form. If not, my bad then.
I can't, of course, speak for what your teacher has done.
He was asociated with the Beijing wushu team at one point as a coach, though it was when Jet Li was still young.
The one I linked up, as I noted, is from the Beijing Wushu team, and is itself a national winner. It seems to me this is a reasonable source.
I'd say it's pretty safe to say that what goes on in China at the pro level is no longer a very good represenative of modern wushu at all. The forms, competition rules, judging and training has changed drastically the last several years there. If you want examples of top quality modern wushu as it was intended, you would have to look at older athletes like Jet Li, Cheng Ai Peng, Yuan Wen Qing, etc.
As for how much the form resembles traditional Bagua, I can't really say as I have very little Bagua experience myself. But, to say that "this is what modern wushu Bagua looks like, and this is what traditional Bagua looks like" is incorrect as you can use any form of Bagua in competition that meets the time requirements. How the form looks is going to depend on what traditional style that person did. If someone can come in and win with a poorly put together form and have no traditional Bagua training, then that's because the judges weren't doing their jobs. It doesn't matter what the form is, new, old, freestyled on the spot, the person demonstrating has to be judged by Bagua standards. If they win breaking all the princibles of Bagua, then it's because the judge isn't doing their job.
Christopher M
05-15-2003, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Brad
I'd say it's pretty safe to say that what goes on in China at the pro level is no longer a very good represenative of modern wushu at all.
:confused:
But, to say that "this is what modern wushu Bagua looks like, and this is what traditional Bagua looks like" is incorrect as you can use any form of Bagua in competition that meets the time requirements.
You can also do whatever you please in a figure skating competition. Nonetheless, if you go to a figure skating school there's some pretty standard stuff you're going to learn. And if you go to a hockey school, there's also some pretty standard stuff, and it's much different.
Despite that you can do whatever you please in a figure skating competition, it's still a much different thing than hockey.
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Originally posted by Brad
I'd say it's pretty safe to say that what goes on in China at the pro level is no longer a very good represenative of modern wushu at all.
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What I mean by this is that the rules used in pro competitions in China are extremely different than those used elsewhere. They're bound by a lot of restrictions placed upon them by whomever comes up with form requirements every year. For one, they're focused entirely on the sport as a way of life. It's their job. But modern wushu is made up of much much more than is seen in the current sport. So they may sacrifice a lot of basic training that is in the modern wushu system, just so they can work on these new super difficult moves assigned to them that have never been a part of modern wushu forms before. In pro modern wushu forms competition most of their time is going to be focused on the requirements for the year for the three main divisions and stuff like the traditional stuff is going to fall to the backseat of their training. In the past the training wasn't so focused on this wierd new stuff, so Jet Li could specialize in Fanzi Quan, Cheng Ai Peng could go into depth in Sun Taiji Quan, and so on. In modern wushu it used to be that you would learn a traditional style and that would be the basis of your competition routine(s). Now everything at the pro level there is generic and restricted. I don't think there's those kind of restrictions anywhere at the amatuer level though. I don't know how many people still
got an im partway through and have been talking for about an hour... completely lost my train of thought, lol. Anyway, I'm not arguing Bagua anymore because I don't know anything about it ;-) I'll just say you win that battle. If you want to talk longfist, and competition then I'm all for it :D
You MUST make the distinction between a BAD routine, BAD judging, and POOR performer.
A Bad routine CAN be made to look sort of OK by a person with good basics and skill..but in the end, it will always be a bad routine. I have seen my share of BAD Contemporary AND Traditional Wushu routines.
BAD judging....well, if they judges are scoring incorrectly and do it the same way over and over, the competitors begin to do things WRONG...because that is what gets medals. Case in point...Point sparring at most US competitions...Would you REALLY use many of the techniques you see there...like exposing your back and the back of your head...? I wouldn't...but they do because the rules state that if you stike in certain areas, you get disqualified...so it is easier and safe....and still wrong.
Poor performer...the Modern clip posted (Not Brandon's) was POOR. While the viedo quality was bad, the person performing had no understanding of what they were doing, there was not a good connection to their center, the spirit was wrong, and even for something like Changquan, their stances were less than stable...and Bagua requires more stability than that. So, It was a poor performance.
The clip of Brandon was of a person who trains in the US and is almost exclusively trained by a Modern Wushu coach. The judges...one was Nick Gracenin...and he does both Contemporary Bagua as well as Traditional (Fu style if memory serves).
Christopher M
05-16-2003, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by GLW
the Modern clip posted was POOR.
By the standards of traditional bagua, I'd agree whole-heartedly. By some other set of standards, it's obviously quite good.
Han Jing from the Beijing Wushu team performing at the 1998 Women's National Individual Competition in Beijing isn't exactly a fringe source.
The clip of Brandon was of a person who trains in the US and is almost exclusively trained by a Modern Wushu coach.
I agree that this form and performance was much more reminiscent of traditional baguazhang than the Beijing one.
Nope...by any standard it was NOT world class.
The lack of focus and root is a big problem in ALL internal arts and this applies to Contemporary AND Classical.
While it may have been the video quality, what I saw was not an example of good root or focus. Not that I could do it that fast or whatever...but I was NOT impressed - and the name matters not.
Being a top competitor in Changquan or Jian means you have that routine down and that you have good basics. It does not mean that everything you do is at that level...but you may be shown doing a number of things - and the pity is that often such people show something and what they did becomes the "How" for doing it regardless.
Christopher M
05-16-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by GLW
Nope...by any standard it was NOT world class.
I don't mean here to be making a claim or asserting a personal opinion. I understand that you don't consider it world class. I just mean to be pointing out facts of the situation, regardless of whether you or I may disagree.
Kristoffer
05-18-2003, 11:04 AM
I didn't care to read this whole post so i don''t know if this have been said already. But, Wushu IS Kung fu. Shuai Chiao IS Wushu. Wing Chun IS Wushu. Shaolin 5 animal IS Wushu!!!
Gong fu is just a general term for skill and has nothing to do with martial art. If you have Gong fo in WUSHU you are a martial artist. There are TRADITIONAL and MODERN Wushu. Modern Wushu is what looks like ballet and dancing, traditional is ALL martial arts that you call Kung Fu.
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