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IRONMONK
05-13-2003, 07:17 AM
I know wing chun isnt just about speed but i would like to be much faster.How do u train to improve speed?

I asked a M.A who is very fast he beleives in training slowly:

"The reason that you want to work on the very, very slow and slow speeds is so that you will better develop the proper neuropathways, thus a higher level of effeciency.

You want to feel what you are doing, so that you can eliminate any unnecessary contraction.

Either too much contraction, or unnecessary muscle involvement will slow you down.

After you've worked on your slow stuff, then move into the other speed ranges, ending with very, very fast.

As I mentioned on my previous posts (I had forgotten to put my name on the first of the two), you will want to practice the drills, throwing a thousand punches a day.

To just throw punches out of gross muscle movement is the wrong way to learn. Include the slow, concentration movements and you will learn to punch at a much higher level.

Practice starting your punch slow and ending fast. At first this is an exercise. A drill. Later, you will do this without even knowing that you are doing it. Nor will anyone else know that you are doing it, because it will look like greased lightning from beginning to end.

Once you have this, go to the heavy bag. You will no doubt discover that you are able to put more shock and penetration into the bag while using far less effort. But, it takes practice. It also takes proper structure and connection and a few other things.

A lot of people that I see (most all) try to be fast. It's the trying, the effort, when initiating their movement that makes them slow.

Learn to start slow and end fast. By ending fast, you will have acceleration speed which adds to power. Your strike at impact will be more accurate and deeper.

The trick is to get rid of excessive muscle contraction. Use gravity as your prime mover instead of intention. Fire out of momentum instead of stillness.

On reaction speed, the secret is to read the opponent's intention. Learn to feel what he feels. By the time he initiates you have already moved (preferably off-line, but not necessary). I call this disappearing. He punches and you vanish. Before his punch was meant to make impact he's been hit. He tried to move fast and you moved slow, but you beat him to the punch.

In the beginning, you will feel the vibration at the end of your punch. You want to get rid of this. Before impact, the hand is loose. In tightens at impact, then instantly releases as to cut off rebound coming back to you. How you hold your fist is important. You want to practice letting go. When I strike, I only tighten the middle two fingers. This way I get less contraction in my forearm which only serves as a conduit for rebound."


Anyway do any what do u think of this training method?do any of you train at slow speeds?

regards,

Faze.

Ernie
05-13-2003, 09:33 AM
your idea is sound and very similar to '' attribute development video by Paul vunak'' were he goes over Bruce's speed training.
but remember speed is relative .
there is raw initiation speed
combination speed
eye speed
and timing
these are all qualities of having effective speed , and can be developed individually.
I am naturally fast but I was over committed with my speed a one shot all or nothing guy . after slowing down I found out I could be more effective by having better body position then just raw hand speed , my power got deeper and so did my shots . so hand speed with out body connection is empty unless of course it's a groin shot or eye jab were you don't need weight

Merryprankster
05-13-2003, 09:50 AM
It sounds exactly like the first 2 weeks of boxing.

Ernie
05-13-2003, 10:23 AM
one human body
two hands trying to be used to strike
there are bound to be universal truths in development and expression of power speed and balance .
i would be worried if it sounded like fisrt two weeks of swimming

jesper
05-14-2003, 02:05 AM
Sorry to rub it in but according to most sciencetist, your speed is genetically dependant.

So while you can develope speed to a certain degree, you cant exceed your "genetically speed limit" in lack of better words.

If you want faster movements its better to look at your body language since most often thats what gives you away. Suppres your warning signs and gain that extra split second which can make the difference.

Merryprankster
05-14-2003, 03:53 AM
Good point--excellent timing and decent accuracy can more than make up for average handspeed.

marcelino31
05-14-2003, 08:13 AM
Ironmonk, can u explain how you use your stance and elbow energy to initiate or practice your punch. I believe a slow punch can pack as much power if not more than a fast punch. Its all about alignment and focusing your energy at the point of contact.

IRONMONK
05-14-2003, 09:04 AM
I agree that timing, distance, accuracy etc can make up for average hand speed.However i want to improve my hand speed and interested in how other ppl train for this And want to know if slow speed training is useful!

As for genetics-i want to get to my maximum "genetically allowed" speed as much as possible by training correctly.

marcelino ,my punch is initiated from my elbow and the body follows-falling step and helps overcome inertia

Lindley
05-14-2003, 10:35 AM
IronMonk,

Three R's of training- Recognition, Reaction, and Recovery. True "speed" can be the result of excellent timing. A reduction in Reaction time produces great gains in timing.

A recommendation for you to build "speed" starts at what your martial arts friend recommended - start slow by first understanding movements you want to perform with speed. Often times the key to becoming successful in martial arts training is to do one movement for a period, a week or a month, until you are comfortable it is "under your belt". The training here is now a "method". Then you let it go. It is said "we use the boat (the method) to cross the river, but then do not carry the boat on our back when on the other side". This approach to training is not often practiced as this involves patience and focus, and quite frankly is boring. However, the rewards are astonishing.

Advice for you is to understand what timing really is. Define it by writing it down and relate it to something else you do well. What process did you take to become good at that? Then create within your training a method to increase your timing ability.

There is something, I believe, is called IPS, Ideal Performance State. This is when you study all the things that affect what makes you perform at your best - your emotions, how you feel about yourself, your favorite training exercise, what clothes make you feel good etc. This can help you understand the elements that help you to perform at your best, of which speed training can be included as a goal.

A recommended exercise is for you and a partner to stand facing each other with your right hand pressing forward against his right hand, each with one leg forward. One of you agree to move the hand (smoothly and quickly) away, allowing the others hand a free path to move forward and strike the chest. You will probably notice a slight hesitation. This is a delay in your reaction time. Work this until you can react faster to their hand removal, without anticipating it. This is a study of sensitivity and timing. Think of your hand like a force of water, as water immediately flows forward to fill where there is no barrier.

The last movements of the Siu Nim Tao - hands from the elbow crossing the lower center and replacing to the opposite elbow - a useful tool to build timing.

Good Luck in your Kung Fu!

kj
05-14-2003, 11:02 AM
As with most things, speed harkens back to basics. (See the Basics, Basics, Basics (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15235) thread.)

For us, practice, training progression, and application are based on:


Position
Sensitivity
Power
In that order. With Timing and Speed as functions of Position and Sensitivity.


As we say, "It doesn't matter who is faster. What matters is who gets there first."

It's always the basics.

Regards,
- kj

Ernie
05-14-2003, 11:20 AM
As we say, "It doesn't matter who is faster. What matters is who gets there first."


it doesn't matter who gets there first but who gets there with more.
learned this the hard way , i often beat people to the punch but there punch had body behind it .
they got a bruise i got to see stars
hand and body basic 101
unless you get the eye jab then only speed required .

kj
05-14-2003, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Ernie
As we say, "It doesn't matter who is faster. What matters is who gets there first."

it doesn't matter who gets there first but who gets there with more.
learned this the hard way , i often beat people to the punch but there punch had body behind it .
they got a bruise i got to see stars
hand and body basic 101
unless you get the eye jab then only speed required .

I think it does matter who gets there first, but I must also agree with your hard earned conclusion that one must arrive with sufficient substance. Thus the 3rd bullet.

Euphemistically speaking, trading punches is an inferior strategy, IMHO. "Head of glass, tofu body, iron bridges wrapped in cotton" and all of that.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Lindley
05-14-2003, 12:41 PM
Ernie,

Getting there first is the nature of Wing Chun! The Centerline Theory is "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line". Maybe it is how you get there which is the question? Your techniques must be the most efficient and effective.

Your "getting there first" would have better results if directed against the soft areas along the centerline or a pressure point. Analyze your techniques and see if they are "just arm techniques" or is your body behind them?

Your partner hits harder than you to your chest after your first softer strike to their solar plexus or throat. Who wins then?

Techniques must be applied at an appropriate "condition" in a manner which would allow Phon sao, or followup of a second technique. It should have nothing to do with "who hits hardest". That would be a paradigm of another martial art style, not the one we study.

Good luck in your Kung Fu, Ernie!

Ernie
05-14-2003, 12:57 PM
i agree to a point that's why i used the idea of a eye jab it requires no structure or body just speed timing and placement .
this was to make a point nothing is set in stone . getting there first would be single direct attack but in the real world this seldom works , so one must get into a better position first .
if getting there first was all there was then i would use different faster tools then offered by wing chun , i would train for expolsive foot work and faster punches and kicks , perhaps boxing and savate. then i could allways get there and '' touch '' first .
i would work my plyo's and sprints ,get in the gym and work short explosive actions with wieghts i would work reflex drills with focus mitts , get in the ring with lighter faster guys to improve my speed and set up .
oh wait i do all that . guess you were right. sorry
just having fun i hear you , got a few friend in moy yat i train with from time to time good people .