Dit Dat Jow question

[Patrick Gordon]

hello all,

Aside from what you've heard about Dit Dat Jow, has anyone ever researched it enough to find out which ingredients do what, rather than just "it helps a speedy recovery in bruising". I have heard a lot of people swear by it but they cannot tell me anything about it. I myself never use it unless I have a really bad injury, but most people will pretty much try anything when injured badly.

How effective is it and why. What exactly does it do and how? Are there modern lineaments which would be more effective than a good batch of Dit Dat Jow?

I tore a liament in my finger about a month ago (training) and it is still really sore. I keep it taped to another finger, but I am not putting anything on it. Any suggestions.

Thanks for any help, sincerely,

Patrick Gordon.

[Alpha Dog]

Some versions of Jow might help but it's a completely unregulated product and you're gambling with your physical well being by relying on it.

If you tore a ligament in your hand you might want to get a doctor to hook you up with some Feldene (Piroxicam) to reduce any internal swelling and Tensolax to relax the ligament and let it heal. I've used these for similar injuries with positive results (injury never came back).

[aelward]

There are so many versions of Dit Dat Jow out there, it would be hard to say what exactly each ingredient does without seeing the list. And so many of the Jows are proprietory, so only a select few know what exactly goes into them.

Generally, the functions of the ingredients, from a Chinese point of view are:

> Open channels to move stagnation
> Break up stasis to relieve pain
> Activate blood to move blood
> Cool blood to stop bleeding
> Astringe to Reduce swelling

From a western biomedical point of view, their properties include: hemostatic, anti-inflammatory, vasodilation, and analgesia.

Several commercial brands can be used for your finger: Zheng Gu Shui, Woodlock Oil, Red Flower Oil. All of these work along the same lines as Dit Dat Jow. Yunnan Baiyao aerosol also does wonders for my own injuries. You may also want to keep the area warm and gently stretch it out.

[reneritchie]

While Dit Da Jow is not "medicine" in the western sense, and AD is very correct when he points out its unregulated, like any health and wellbeing related product, you should get it from as highly a trained indivual as possible, and they should prepare it specifically for your own unique physiology for best results. Some people have adverse reactions to certain ingredients, including rashes, so be careful.

As for finger ligaments: RICE. Rest it, Ice it, Compress it, Elevate it. If you want Chinese medicine, see an expert Chinese doctor who may work with herbal pills, poulitices, etc. as well as linaments.

[pvwingchun]

Patrick

A good batch of jow can't be beat. But you are better off getting it from someone with a track record of producing effective medicine, as the commercial brands are generally weak in my experience. It depends on which herbs are used as to the exact action of the jow. Everyone produces it a little different but there seems to be a few common herbs that are used in most jows. I use it primarily for conditioning and to prevent bruising. It helps to lessen swelling, bruising and tears and sprains. As an unusual aside it can help to lighten and even eliminate vericose veins in the legs.

Once you find a good jow if you know the herbs you can look them up in "Chinese - English Manual of Common Used in Traditional Chinese Medicine", to determine the action of each herb involved. It is hard to tell you what it does withoout knowing the herbs involved since each herb has a different action.

Bottom line is it should help with ligament. Follow Rene's advice and add the jow to it and it should heal up fine.

aelward is also correct.

[Phil Redmond]

There are herbs that are anti-imflammatory, analgesic, and there are herbs that are anti coagulants in jau formuls. Formulae will vary form school to school and sifu to sifu. The herbs can be very expensive or cheap depending on the quality. One of the herbs in my jau formula can cost per tsun almost as much as gold per ounce. A good jau formula can get rid of a bruise really fast.
Also never rub jau on a bruise in the direction of the heart or lungs as a clot may travel there.
Phil

[yuanfen]

Aelward's brief overview is good in my opinion.
Alpha Dog's caution is also noteworthy.
TCM or western meds--- you can get a bad sample or a
bad provider.
Western medicine has made major advances- I am the only non MD in a long line of MDs for generations on both sides of the family- and i have been served well. But I do not regard every MD (or herbalist)asa an authority--they may not have the time, the full history or care enough or not have the right kind of experience.
As John mentioned there are many kinds of jows for different purposes. My sifu's jow has helped me a lot in the past..

But nowadays I go through a (non wing chun) nanquan tcma-ist who works with a good Chinese herbalist in California. The jows are not sold in regular stores. With my friend the herbalist varies the compositions for the purposes at hand. Does not use mercury and dangerous sand palm materials. His formula is not for sale.

I have shared some with a student who is a trainer as well asa a musician. In his case and mine the healing from the jows is very satisfactory.
For other TCM or accupuncture I use a very experienced ex professor of TCM from Tianjin. For his training the curruculum included cross training in TCM and MD work. And he has over 25 years of practical experience.

I have also used ayurvedic remedies successfully for some things.
Turmeric for instance is a pretty good anti-inflammatory and can be used in some plasters and paste before wrapping the injured area.... supplemented with massage- manipulation.

Western meds even when effective can cost an arm and a leg.
A month's cdelebrex is over $80 in cost.

There can be quacks in any field---including kung fu!!

Finding a good practitioner is the key.

[Phil Redmond]

Tincture of Arnica is used by some people. Not sure if it's still sold in pharmacies though.
Phil

[Alpha Dog]

In Hong Kong you can buy a kind of Jow in the pharmacies -- it's called Po Sum On (no kidding). Makes a great insect repellant.

[Phil Redmond]

Maybe they lived in the Southern US before moving to HK.
PR

[Alpha Dog]

I think you're right, Phil. If it were truly Hong Kongese, it would be called Yu Po Som On.

Not trying to bash anyone's faith in herbal medicines -- I do think, however, that a torn ligament (as opposed to a bruise) is a pretty serious thing, especially in the hand. Best not fool around.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog
Not trying to bash anyone's faith in herbal medicines -- I do think, however, that a torn ligament (as opposed to a bruise) is a pretty serious thing, especially in the hand. Best not fool around.

Alpha Dog is dead on correct. Anything involving a tendon or ligament isn't something you want to take lightly. Go see a Doctor!

[azwingchun]

There are actually two schools of thought (maybe more) when massaging the bruised or area of tauma. One being the one mentioned, then the other being sedative and tonification.

With the second in mind you actually rub in a clockwise motion to sedate and counter-clockwise to tonify. Anything that is red, swollen or bruised you will sedate, with clockwise massaging motion. Just my two cents! ;)

Oh yeah, I just remembered a third way. Some say if you massage in the direction of the meridian flow this tonifies and against sedates.

[kj]

Originally posted by azwingchun
With the second in mind you actually rub in a clockwise motion to sedate and counter-clockwise to tonify. Anything that is red, swollen or bruised you will sedate, with clockwise massaging motion. Just my two cents! ;)

Should the directions be reversed for those South of the equator? (Sorry, couldn't help myself ... <sheepish grin>)

Back to my hidey hole now.
- kj

[azwingchun]

As humorous as that may sound, that question was asked. The answer was no it doesn't make a difference. LOL!!!! ;)

[Patrick Gordon]

I did see a sports medicine doctor one week after the injury. Had an exray and was told the ligament was torn and there was a very small piece of bone that came along with it. was told to tape it to the next finger and then work it through squeezing. it has been a month now and it is still quite sore and swollen. I was told it can take quite a long time to heal and for the swelling to reduce.

Patrickl Gordon.

[flaco]

there are hubndreds of jow formulas, i am a tcm student, and im studying herbology. you can go to any herb shop, and ask the physician there, to make you a personal jow, however, they must sit in alchohol for at least 30 days to be any good. i have some 6 yr old jow, and it works great. and the other guys already told you how it works.
in tcm, blood stagnation is the problem, and these herbs move the blood, as well as other things. but there are hot stagnations and cold, the right diagnoses is needed.chinese medicine will rarely use ice, but western medicine will tell you to use ice. so anyway, i usually get a great bag of jow, that will be used in a gallon of vodka, and last about a year or more, and it cost a whopping 20 bucks.

you can ask the herbalist to write the formula, but itys almost guaranteed they will leave an herb or two out of the written part, they usually dont give away the formula.

[WCis4me]

Phil Redmond wrote:

A good jau formula can get rid of a bruise really fast.
We have Sifu Redmond's jau in the house and use it regularly for bruises, it works very well on me and my children (16,11,7). It does rid the bruise quickly if applied after the bruise develops and limits bruising dramatically if applied immediately after the injury. We only use it for bruises.
With that said I have to say I am in agreement with the consensus on this thread that if you have a serious injury, such as the ligament you have discussed, you need to see a doctor and get it fixed with no hit and miss techniques.
Hope you have a speedy recovery,
Vicky.
(oops sorry didn't see the post where you had said you saw the doctor)

[ntc]

Answering your question on Dit Da Jow:

First of all, the understanding:
- "Dit" implies "falling"
- "Da" implies "hitting"
- "Jow" implies a linament, usually wine-based
Therefore, the term "Dit Da Jow" is used to denote a linament used to treat injuries/dysfunctions resulting from falling or hitting. This includes bruises, dislocations, broken bones, torn tendons/ligaments, sprains, etc. You can definitely see its close association with martial arts injuries here.

Secondly, the injuries:
- the above threads have helped to explain the effects caused by the injuries
- the pain and the severity can stem from being superficial to being very severe and even life-threatening

Thirdly, the treatment and the ingredients:
- to effectively treat the injuries, a number of things need to happen, but the following represent the common key components (the postings have allured to some of these as well):

1. blood clots and swelling are often caused by the injury; these need to be treated (removed) and the blood stimulated
- herbs that are commonly used for this include Ru Xiang, Hong Hua

2. as the blood is being invigorated, it should be nourished and tonified
- Dang Gui is an excellent herb for this (and blood tonification, in general, especially for women during menses)

3. the clots typically cause Qi stagnation around the traumatized area as well; this Qi needs to be stimulated to flow freely again
- Mu Xiang is a good herb for this

4. any bleeding, especially internal, needs to be halted
- San Qi (also commonly known as Tian Qi) is readily applied here

5. bleeding can be made worse if HEAT in the body, especially in the blood vessels, exist; hence herbs are added to cool any exisiting HEAT in the blood, such as Chi Shao

6. pain-killing herbs are often added accordingly
- Ma Gum is one of them; these tend to be toxic so be careful when using these!

7. once this treatment is applied, the pores are opened and so are the Qi channels, which raises the risk of an external pathogenic attack by illness-causing factors such as WIND, DAMPNESS, COLD, etc.
- herbs are added to the mix to help the body defend against these possible attacks, such as Dina Xiang, Da Huang

8. other symptoms exhibited by the patient (coughs, paleness, lethargy, numbness) will require the addition of other herbs accordingly

NOTE: all the above herbs have contraindications, some POTENTIALLY SERIOUS; if you are going to try them out, PLEASE research these first before using them. Also, some of the herbs should ONLY be applied externally as they may be toxic, so again, you will need to research this and be very careful about this as well.

Finally, all the above herbs are soaked in rice wine (drinking quality, which is premium quality) for at least 6 months to form the Dit Da Jow, which is then applied. In addition, the herbs are also used in powder form and cooked in wine to form a paste which is then applied on the injured area EXTERNALLY after some massage work has been done to the area.

The rice wine is used because of its ability to move blood and help it to flow freely, by the way.

It is common for kung fu schools to have their own formulas that will treat the types of injuries inflicted by their particular style's strikes. Consult with your teacher about the formula used in your school.

DISCLAIMER: I assume NO responsibility for how the above information will be used by the reader. My posting of the information is ONLY to share my understanding of the Dit Da Jow principles, and I am in no way suggesting, advising, recommending, or making any form of insinuation on how injuries happen, how they should be treated, or how the linament should be used. The patient should ALWAYS CONSULT licensed medical practitioners regarding their medical problems and injuries.