What happened to the Save NY Kung Fu post?

[Royal Dragon]

Did we get enough signatures?

[lkfmdc]

I would love to get more signatures, the more the better. But I know that at least one moderator was anxious to pull it down, so I guess that is what happened. Here is the info about it again

FIGHT TO SAVE SAN SHOU IN NEW YORK STATE!

Recent changes in New York State law has made San Shou ILLEGAL!

The law is available online at:
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?ul=11

The ammendment to the current law (Section 5A) states that the only legal "martial arts" competition will be ones sanctioned by organizations on the New York State Athletic Commission's (NYSAC) "approved list". The list does not include any Chinese martial arts organizations.

According to Hudo Spindola, General Counsel for the New York State Athletic Commission, only these organizations can legally run events in NY State. Furthermore, the commission has not established any process by which other organizations can be added. If you are not one of the above organizations, they will send police to shut your event down. Thus, Chinese martial art competitions, including San Shou are now illegal in New York State!

Voice your opposition to this ridiculous list and the fact the commission will not add a Chinese martial art organization to the list. You can do any or ALL of the following.

Call and write the commission,

New York State Athletic Commission
123 William Street
20th floor
NY NY 10038
(212) 417-5700
fax (212) 417-4987


Sign an online petition
http://www.petitiononline.com/sanshou/petition.html

Please be professional and factual when contacting NYSAC, present the fact that San Shou is a recognized sport by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and that our sport has held 6 world championships with over 60 nations sending teams. Thank you!

PLEASE FORWARD...

[Oso]

curious, now this may be affecting me personally.

I'm supposed to go to a jujitsu tourny in Buffalo in Oct.

It's a national event for the IJJF.


and what about S33's last line


Nothing herein contained shall be deemed to apply to amateur exhibitions.

does that mean the entire law or just S33?

[Sho]

How about making the thread sticky?

[David Jamieson]

:rolleyes:

what is it with you guys?

No one had touched that thread for more than two weeks. It was sticky for more than 3 months and you only notice now? The gamut of posters here had been run.

I think you got as many sigs as ytou were gonna get from here. If you want to get more, there are other ways and you can certainly continue to post the link to the form.

cheers

[guohuen]

So what's the skinny? Someone gonna have to go kick the crap out of one of the "approved" (read, paid kickback) martial artist to get sponsored?

[lkfmdc]

The State of New York vs. Martial Arts, the continuing drama of how corrupt politicians find ways to harass innocent citizens instead of addressing real problems like the economy, homelessness and unemployment

With a threat of terrorist attacks and an economy that is shaky at best, the politicians of this fine state have attacked the real enemy (insert sarcasm of course), the martial arts!

There are two situations going on here. First, they have made every martial art competition except Judo, Taekwondo and point karate illegal in the state. Second, they are now either considering a law to make martial arts schools get licenses. Based upon how they shut down the competitions, we can only imagine the worst nightmare where licenses for schools is concerned.

In regards to competitions, the original law first rattled around Albany in 1996 and was signed in 1997. It was intended to stop "no holds barred events, particularly the UFC (which was looking at venues in Manhattan) and an event called "Battlecade" that had actually already booked an Armory in Brooklyn. Battlecade was particularly distasteful to many politicians for two reasons.

First, it's add campaign centerd on the phrases "there are NO RULES" and "whatever it takes to win" and portrayed the event as human ****-fights, bloood everywhere.

Second, the event was sponsored by Penthouse, the adult magazine. Human bloodsport financed by porn, it was every politicians' dream of an easy target.

I got a copy of the original law when it passed and my basic analysis of it THEN was confirmed by my recent conversation with Hugo Spindola, the General Counsel of the New York State Athletic Commission (NYSAC). The original law said simply that "combative sports" were illegal but "martial arts" were legal.

I even emailed NYSAC after the law was passed and asked them if the law made kickboxing (what I promote) illegal. The reponse I got then, in 1997, was that the NYSAC had nothing to do with "martial arts" and kickboxing was not effected by the law.

Events went on uneffected for YEARS, until 2002 and the sudden (or so it seemed) decision by NYSAC to shut down all the shows.
The first show they tried to shut down was Vlad Borodin's in Brooklyn. That show went off despite several police interrruptions. Everyone present was shocked and all the martial art officials present brought up to the police the fact that the law specifically said "martial arts" was excluded, and Vlad's event was 100% kickboxing.

After Vlad's event. I sent another email to the NYSAC, again asking for clarification on the law. That is when I got the following.

From: "Raymond Locascio: RLocasci@dos.state.ny.us
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 12:39 PM
Subject: clarification
Pursuant to your e-mail , the New York State Athletic Commission does not regulate and ha no authority over martial arts competion in New York State. Kickboxing is considered a martial arts and the Commission does not have and control over these type of competion.

This seemed like good news. But subsequently the NYSAC succeeded in shutting down Gene Fabrikante's show and Lou Neglia's show. This is when the community realized that this was a serious issue.

Eddie Goldman, a free lance journalist who is a supporter of martial arts events, wrote Locascio back asking for more information and clarifications.

This was sent directly to Raymond Locascio's e-mail address listed above. The commission is part of the Dept. of State, hence the domain name. Eddie did not receive a reply from Locascio. Instead, the following reply arrived on Oct. 1 from Hugo B. Spindola, General Counsel for the New York State Athletic Commission. It indicates a new definition of the illegal "combative sports" to include kickboxing. Here it is, spelling and punctuation errors intact:

> Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:02:11 -0400
> From: "Hugo Spindola" HSpindol@dos.state.ny.us
> To: knockoutradio@yahoo.com
> Subject: Kickboxing
> Dear Mr. Goldman:
> The New York State Athletic Commission is in receipt of your email dated September 19, 2002, regarding kickboxing. In order to answer your question one must look at the section of the law in New York State which covers "combative sports." The relevant section - Section 8905-a of the Unconsolidated Laws - defines combative sports as "any professional match or exhibition other than boxing, sparring, wrestling or martial arts...the term 'martial arts' shall
include any professional match or exhibition sanctioned by any of the following organizations: U.S. Judo Association, U.S. Judo, Inc., U.S. Judo Federation, U.S. Tae Kwon Do Union, North American Sport Karate Association, U.S.A. Karate Foundation, U.S. Karate, Inc., World Karate Association, Professional Karate Association, Karate International, International Kenpo Association, or World Wide Kenpo Association." Although I do not have any personal knowledge as to the specific organizers who have had their shows "closed down", I will note that their events were probably not sanctioned by any of the above listed governing bodies. As such, they would then fall into the "combative sports" definition. I hope this response fulfills your previous request.

Very truly yours,
Hugo B. Spindola
General Counsel New York State Athletic Comission
123 William Street - 20th Floor
New York, New York 10038
(212) 417-5700

The fact that the NYSAC was now using this strict definition was confirmed by a conversation I had with Hugo Spindola (why I called him I will get to). The definition, or perhaps the decision to enforce such a literal reading of the definition, was because two un-named upstate promoters were doing UFC style events and hiding under the poorly defined definition of "martial arts".

Exactly what traspired next is unclear. Either they ammended the law to include the now infamous "approved list" or they simply instructred the NYSAC to
act upon the "approved list" in a way they had previous not. To the letter and only what was specified in black and white.

The end result is clear, the NYSAC now interprets the law to mean that unless an event is sanctioned by one of the 12 "approved" organizations, it is illegal. According to Hugo Spindola, general council for the commission, ONLY these 12 organizations can run events in NY State. Furthermore, the commission has not established any process by which other organizations can be added. If you are not one of the above organizations, they will send police to shut your event down.

The law is available online at:
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?ul=11

How the "approved list" was created no one knows. Hugo Spindola told me that he believed the organizations on the list had originally lobbied Albany to be included when the bill was written. But this appears not true, the organizations on the list were not even aware they were on the list. This has been confirmed. One organization, World Karate Association, WKA, says they didn't even know about the law until NY'er called them to sacntion with them, to escape from the approved list problem.

In some cases, clearly the politicians wanted to avoid the obvious mistake of making an Olympic sport illegal. California had tried to make Judo illegal only to have HUGE opposition make them look like fools. Albany made sure the IOC recognized bodies for Judo and Taekwondo were on the list. Though being ignorant of many of the facts they made other mistakes.

1. If you look at the list drawn up in this law, not included is the USA National Karate-do Federation (USA-NKF, athttp://www.usankf.org/). This organization just happens to be a member of the United States Olympic Committee, and is considered by the USOC to be 'the National Governing Body for the sport of Karate.' Although karate is not an Olympic sport, it has applied to become one. So imagine what will happen if it does get accepted, or if the USOC decides to run events sanctioned by the USA-NKF in New York.

2. While AAU is not the "national governing body" for Taekwondo, it has an IDENTICAL format. It is the same sport. So, in effect, the law enforces a monopoly in the sport of Taekwondo. While they are both in the same "business", only USTU Taekwondo is legal in NY state. The same argument can now be made for kickboxing, as the NYSAC approved the WKA but not the other three kickboxing organizations in the US, ie IKF, USKBA and ISKA....

3. The list could be called racist, if you realize that it does not have a single Chinese martial arts organization on the list.

But I digress. Despite this initial set back, many thought that the NYSAC could be reasoned with. The United States Kickboxing Association (USKBA) approached
the NYSAC about being added to the "approved list". They were flat our denied.

[lkfmdc]

The fact that the NYSAC claims they can not add anyone to the list is a major source of controversy. As Eddie Goldman explained in his response to
Spindola Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:10:56 -0700 (PDT)

> From: "Eddie Goldman" knockoutradio@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: Kickboxing
> To: "Hugo Spindola" HSpindol@dos.state.ny.us
> Thank you for your reply. You did not include the entire paragraph which you quoted. The part which you deleted reads: The commission is authorized to promulgate regulations which would establish a process to allow for the inclusion or removal of martial arts organizations from the above list. Such process shall include but not be limited to consideration of the following factors:
> (a) is the organization`s primary purpose to provide instruction in self defense techniques;
> (b) does the organization require the use of hand, feet and groin protection during any competition or bout; and
> (c) does the organization have an established set of rules that require the immediate termination of any competition or bout when any participant has
> received severe punishment or is in danger of suffering serious physical injury.
> Thus both the letter and intent of the law is not to limit or restrict sanctioning only to "the above listed governing bodies." I would thus like to know just what the commission has done in the five years since this law was passed to fulfill its legal obligation to "establish a process to allow for the inclusion or removal of martial arts
organizations from the above list." I would like the dates and summaries of all hearings or reports issued on this subject. If there have been none, as I suspect, then your commission has not fulfilled its obligations under the law. Further, your opinion was not shared by Raymond Locascio, who wrote to a kickboxing promoter on Sept. 17, "that the New York State Athletic Commission does not regulate and ha no authority over martial arts competion in New York State. Kickboxing is considered a martial arts nd he Commission does not have and control over these type of competion." (spelling errors left intact) Mr. Locascio has since left the commission, but your statement means that in the last two weeks, the commission has changed its opinion. Please relay to me what hearings were held for this. Please relay to me what examination of the track record of these promoters you took into account. Please relay to me what medical experts were consulted. Please relay to me what martial arts
experts were consulted. Please relay to me what other commissioners in the Association of Boxing Commissions were consulted."

Spindola never responded to Goldman's last email.

However, a similar question was posed when I contacted him. Once USKBA was denied, I contacted
Spindola as a representative of San Shou. San Shou is an IOC recognized sport, under consideration for inclusion in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing, China. The international federation has 89 nations participating. They have held 6 world championships in every corner of the globe. IE it's a legitimate sport.

I contacted mr Spindola in a professional manner and explained these facts. I explained to him that a judo body, point karate body or kenpo organization could not and would not sanction San Shou. Thus, the current law as written made San Shou, a possible Olympic sport, illegal.

Mr Spindola wasn't necessarily rude, but he basicly told me "tough", we won't add any organization to the list, he claimed that NYSAC didnt' have the "authority" to do it. Once again, we questioned that last part of section 5-A, and then it got really interesting.

Because we had approached in a polite, cordial and professional manner and presented with facts and reasonable requests only to be blown off, the next logical step was to start rocking the boat. I informed all the major Chinese martial arts bodies that Chinese martial art was illegal in NY now.

Representatives of US Wushu Union, one of the major Chinese martial arts bodies in the US, contacted Joshua Toas, the Assistant Secretary of State of New
York. Toas said HIS (important to note that different parts of the NY government have different interpretations of the same law) interpretation was that "professional martial arts bouts" were in which either the participant is specifically paid to compete or in which prize money was awarded. These were under the jurisdiction of the Athletic Commission. However, he also stated that theoretically, amateurs should NOT fall under this set of laws BUT he admitted that this point needed to be clarified.

Toas gave the US Wushu Union contact info for Hugo Spindola, the Counsel of the Athletic Commission. Toas was under the (apparently FALSE?) impression the NYSAC will then simply add the US Wushu Union onto the list of the 12 sanctioned organizations. Thus, the Department of State thinks the NYSAC has the authority to add to the list, the NYSAC says they can't because the legislature won't allow them to? Who is correct or is this just finger pointing?

The next issue is a bill to regulate and license martial arts schools. Now remember, this is the same group of people who made up the first law that totally excluded any Chinese martial arts organizations, not to mention of course Thai, Cambodian, Vietnamese, Filipino, Russian, Brazilian, French and the virtually hundreds of other martial arts traditions. They are certainly un-educated about the martial arts community, did I mention that at least 4 of the organizations on the NYSAC "approved list" havent' been in existance since the 1980's? Who knows what criteria they will come up with? Or simply come up with a list of "approved martial arts" which will no doubt leave out many legitimate martial arts.

The only thing we can find on the bill is this
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A04415

A04415 is to "adopt rules and regulations requiring the licensure of martial arts instructors".
Someone in the NYSAC is saying the law already passed, be I can't get anything concrete

This bill was introduced by Robert A. Straniere.

His personal web page can be found at
http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=062

He has email that you can send him from that page. You can also call his office at 718-667-0314. He is a representative in Staten Island, NY.

Sorry it is long

Thanks

[lkfmdc]

actually, a little more

The Daily News ran a two page story on how the New York State Athletic Commission is plagued with corruption and scandal, and has failed in it's #1 stated mission, to promote boxing in NY. At a time when NY is in great budget crisis, they are fucntioning with an $886,000 budget and the only thing useful they can find to do is shut down martial arts?

full story is here

http://www.nydailynews.com/04-20-2003/news/story/76925p-70978c.html

forward this to anyone you think might be interested in this story

[Ben Gash]

But surely all that needs to happen is for a WAKO promoter or one of the TKD organisations on the list to challenge the bill in court. If there's no difference in format and there is no criteria for inclusion on the list then it is a case of flat out discrimination.
Anyway, I thought San Shou was an IOC recognised sport now. Why has no-one brought the big guns to bear?

[lkfmdc]

the biggest problem is apathy, as demonstrated by many here. People either didn't take it seriously, or didn't want to be bothered. Think about it, if you aren't even willing to sign an on line petition that will take you 2 minutes?

Going to court takes MONEY and many don't want to spend it or simply don't have it. People also assumed, incorrectly, that this was such a clear mess that it would get straightened out when the NYSAC is presented with the obvious. But read the article about the NYSAC, eating up $886,000 a year and not promoting a single boxing event for the rest of the year.

Spindola is paid $90,000 per year, and all he has done for almost two years is snbed cops to shut down shows, not producing and single dime for the state, yet COSTING us money...

[MasterKiller]

My problem was not that I didn't care about it, but that I don't see the relevance. This is a local political issue, and I don't see what legal sway signatures from outside that voting district have on a local issue.

Do you think a politician from NY really cares what someone from another state, or even another country, cares about this policy?

If you really cared about it, you would be out in the street collecting signatures from people in that voting district because those are the only signatures that matter.

And who takes an online petition seriosuly, anyway? Did you see any of the other petitions posted there? They are ridiculous.

Don't come on here complaining that we didn't support you. Go make it happen where it really counts.

[lkfmdc]

Masterkiller's post is a classic example. Would it hurt him to sign? No, of course not. But he'd rather carry on than take the two minutes to sign it. I bet it took him longer to post.

We are attacking the issue from ALL directions, and that includes petitions from all sources. And while I have heard all sorts of whining and complaining about on line petitions, the same on line petition source was used in NJ to kill a bill legislating MA school licenses.

So, once again, for the 1000th time, don't post about how it isnt' gonna work, and how you don't care, blah blah, just sign it.

[MasterKiller]

And instead of going out in the street and getting a real petition together, you sit in front of your computer and whine about us not doing anything.:rolleyes:

[guohuen]

Call out the big guns, AKA alert the media.

[Royal Dragon]

Aside from the online petition, what other steps are being taken to combat this?

Oh, and to the guys not signing because they think it won't work, it can't hurt can it?

[lkfmdc]

masterkiller is just pathetic, even if 99% it won't work, two minutes of your time is not worth it for 1%?? NO, guess not, he's more content writing posts here criticizing the effort

I personally sent letters to EVERY SINGE REPRESENTATIVE IN ALBANY, and a number of others did the same

I got three major media sources on the story, one newspaper, one magazine (mainstream) and one TV station

I got the Chinese consulate to send a letter of protest to NY state.

BUt I am also going to send the petition to NYSAC when I break 1000 signatures.... but with idiots like masterkiller I guess that's gonna take a while

[diego]

**** killa sign the ****ing thing already!.:)

[David Jamieson]

the biggest problem is apathy, as demonstrated by many here


dude, i don't think that is a fair remark. People from around the world who will likely never be affected by the law, signed the petition in support of the cause.

The struggle will continue. :)

Until then, like I said, the post had done it's best here. It still is here if you use the search. It's only unstuck.

cheers

[Kristoffer]

I would post this in every forum I could find. Not just MA forums either. Then write to the media and have all your friends and training buddies do the same. Organize a protest/demonstration.
That's how to make trouble ;)

[MasterKiller]

BUt I am also going to send the petition to NYSAC when I break 1000 signatures.... but with idiots like masterkiller I guess that's gonna take a while

Maybe you can use the extra time to brush up on your people skills. :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

master-idiot continues to prove the point, he'll waste time posting negative stuff on this thread but won't bother to sign the petition.....

[Mr. Horse]

I agree with master even though I am not a slave:D ;)

You will have to take to the streets. Go to this guy's office. Picket out side his office. Write handwritten signed letters. And you must get together with kung fu and wushu masters in the state and city. Check the phonebook. And if all else false, talk to some of the Org. on the list and maybe they will help in your quest or maybe they can sponsor chinese martial arts tournaments.

Don't call Mater killer an idiot. Online signature are not as good as real signatures. Even the average joe's signature on the street holds more weight than an electronic signaure from a grandmaster.

Sorry for the poor grammar and spelling

[Le nOObi]

Why is signing it such a big deal. It takes like 10 seconds!

Just do it !!!

[shaolinboxer]

Form an official coatlition, register as a 501 (c) 3, raise funds, hire a lawyer, then alert the media.

I would gladly contribute, provided I had a clear understanding of your goals.

[GreyMystik]

masterkiller is right, your people-skills need serious work.

why are you making this into something personal?

your petition is for what it is for, don't twist things around and make the folks who choose not to sign it out to be bad guys, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR REASON(S) MAY BE.

the "bad guys" are the ones trying to shut you down, not the folks from completely different areas who doubt the effect they could have on a LOCAL matter... it makes sense that folks outside of NY would have little to no effect on your petition, and in fact may actually cloud the legitimacy of said petition.

that being said, i guarantee that calling someone "master-idiot" is NOT going to get MORE signatures on your petition.

if you put half the energy into getting (legitimate) signatures that would actually affect the potential outcome here as you do into flaming folks that don't sign or whatnot, you'd probably be alot further along in your quest than you are!


go ahead, flame away if you want...

[lkfmdc]

I guess we have to chalk this up to the faiure of our education system, people simply can't read, grasp basic concepts and form logical conclusions. In addition, there seems a lot of "it won't effect me" denial.... But the reality is that the people who need to re-evaluate things are those who can find time to post here but can't find the time to just SIGN....

[MasterKiller]

lkfmdc,

This may be news to you, but some people like to think for themselves. I'm not going to sign the **** thing because I don't think it will work. There's no point in attacking me, or anyone else, because I'm not stepping inline with your personal crusade here.

[lkfmdc]

yeah, you've made the same claim like 10 times already, you don't think it will work, but still can't come up with a single good reason not to sign it, since what if it did work? You are content to spend time posting on this thread, but won't take the 2 minutes to sign it....

All you are doing is reinforcing my point, over and over again

[Royal Dragon]

OK Kids,

KNOCK IT OFF Already!!!

Jeasssshh, chill out will you two?

GreyMystik, you may be right about the issue of outside signatures clouding and invalidateing the petition. If that's the case, then Masterkiller (36 Chambers by any chance??) is right to not sign.

[Oso]

LOL at RD trying to be the voice of reason;)

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I'm usually the one starting the fights!!! :D

[Le nOObi]

Having 1,000 people sign a petition makes a powerful statement no matter who those people are. Im pretty sure many of the people who have signed are not from new york anyway so the issue of invalidating the petition is probably a non issue. I think anyone who thinks Sanshou should be legal should sign it.