Vietnamese WCK

[reneritchie]

Hey Brian,

Made a separate thread for your questions re: Vietnamese WCK. I've gone over some of this before, but it will be good to put it all in one place.

Yuen Chai-Wan learned alongside his younger brother, Yuen Kay-San, under Fok Bo-Chuen and later Fung Siu-Ching. He didn't teach much (he preferred fighting) but what he did teach in China is similar to what Yuen Kay-San taught. Later, he moved to Vietnam and taught first in the north, then in the south. His ethnic Cantonese students (Cantonese people living in Vietnam, or of Cantonese descent) seem to have learned very similar to his Foshan students and what Yuen Kay-San taught, including 3 forms, etc. His ethnic Vietnamese students seem to have learned less, mostly Siu Lien Tao.

Also, keep in mind that while everyone and his sibak traces back to Yuen (Ngyuen Te Cong as the pronounce it) others were also teaching in Vietnam at the time (such as Lui Yiu-Chai) so different influences exist.

Those of Vietnamese descent, survival more important than lineage during very turbulant times, picked up and added additional material, especially 5-animals related material and extra weapons such as tiger fork, straight sword, etc.

For cultural reasons, like the Chinese, they'll attribute everything back to a famous founder, if different say its a secret/better version, and if they can, link to Shaolin, mysterious monks, etc.

There are now many distinct lineages in Vietnam, and a lot of politics (the typical "I'm the true successor" (in their case, they use the term "patriarch") and "we're the original branch") and strange histories popping up (unfortunately, perhaps derived from Complete Wing Chun and/or the Archives as they changed shortly after that time).

Some discrepencies might also be based on fragments of information (for example, Nam Ahn includes Yuen Kay-San's children as senior students under secret monks, etc. and they did not practice martial arts and were quite a bit younger ;) )

"Diamond Temple" is another example of this. Diamond is just a symbol of Buddhism, eg. Diamond Palm is Buddhist Palm.

Anyway, its quite an involved topic, but this should get it started.

[byond1]

hey ren!!!

yes...i had to come back...like a sniveling junkie...had to talk some wck history!!

thanks..for the thread.....

here are a few questions...im trying to put things together....
between what years did fbc teach the yuens?
was this at there estate?
it was mentioned he as well as fung died at the yune estate?
what year did the yuens bring fung to live at the estate?

when you say "what he did teach in china was similar to what yks
taught"....how do you know this for a fact? what chinese students are you using to form this opinion?
same question for the chinese vietnam students? who are you using to form this opinion

ahhhhh ethnic vietnamese got the small curiculum....i see...got ya...that sorta makes sence...what about the yius?? supposidly yiu choi learned from ycw for a fairly long time(lt maby a bit off when he said 15 years) but....yiu kay supports that they only got slt, knives,and i think jong?? from ycw...plus the bamboo jong with the bot san sik....what do you think is the deal here??

ahhhh i see....the attributing to a "famous founder" makes his lineage line make sence.....fbc learning from leungjan..ect

they changed after cwc?? heh thats funny...

have you heard of this specific temple of the diamond that nan mentioned that fok bo chun lived there after taking monastic vows??.
fok bo chun took the name giac hai dai si
...and he mentions ycw learned from fung first!!! and than fung sent ycw to the temple to learn from fok.......and......

wong wah bo's grandson??? who also learnd from fbc.....have you ever heard anything about wwb decendents???
evidently wwb grandson was a general in the army.....fighting the japanese.....and led the 8th division of general lo han to soutern vietnam

o.k just checked the notes...wwb grandson born 1884 fatsan...lived at temple age 6 under vien hanh (yuen hsin)....given the name nguyen minh.....he finnaly retired from active life to a temple in 1949 in suthern vietanm taking the name hoang tuong fong.....1985 moved to taiwan live in the region named lake of sun-moon...died in 1998 age 114

diamond.,..sure diamond sutra....!!

brian

[reneritchie]

Hey Brian,

Fok taught at the Yuen estate, it was private and they had a lot of room. I don't believe he died there.

The Yiu's are a bit confusing to me. Yiu Choi learned from Yuen Chai-Wan for a while but didn't get much, then from Ng Jung-So for a while and still didn't get much. I'm not sure what that means.

(I take that with a grain of salt, however, since it sources back to Leung Ting's presentation, and what Yiu chose to share with him, and what he chose to share for his book).

There's no specific "Diamond Temple" that I'm aware of, and again I think its just like saying "Christian Church" -- it could be any one of a bunch, or could just be nothing.

The Vietnamese say all sorts of things. Enough are incorrect that I think, again, they received/passed down fragments and then knitted them together as best they could when they went public.

The rest is also what I was talking about, LOL! Yuen Min was one of YKS' sons and he didn't practice MA, much less teach WWB's grandson.

The 'net is full of stuff, some incredibly outlandish. You could probably find a page saying *you* taught Yim Wing-Chun herself if you looked hard enough.

[WCnovice]

Rene,

My WC background includes few years of Vietnamese WCK and I do share your POV about the misleading information in some of the websites out there. Personally, it is almost embarassing :-) However, I just wonder, based on what's been written in your book as well as in www.wingchunkuen.com, about your exposure to this branch of WC. If you don't mind, can you tell us who from VWCK you have met, or directly communicated? Have you at least touch hands with any of them and if so, what are the differences/similarities you've noticed between your WC vs. theirs ?
(My own observation is the VNWCK that I "know" is very, very close to the Leung Sheung WCK that I "know")

I try to keep this thread within a techical discussion, thus, if you want to further discuss, feel free to PM or email me. It may be the best way as I do not want to mention names or share with the public about things that I am not knowldgeable enough or even authorized to do so :-)
Thank you.

[reneritchie]

WCNovice,

Email me at info@wingchunkuen.com, I don't want to contribute to politics either.

[byond1]

hi rene.....could you , pretty please answer my time frame questions and my curiosity about the chinese ycw students.....at
byondthis2@hotmail.com
kudos and thanks in advance.....i think wwe is on soon...time for some smack down.;)

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys,


A friend of mine met up with a Viet WC guy and they worked out a bit. I was told that the WC is very soft, compact and very snake like. It makes sense that Leung Sheung's stuff is similar as it is also quite soft. They practiced the SLT and compared some techniques. I would imagine it couldn't be so different from your YKSWC as it was also nice and soft and had that snake quality with the Sae Ying Sao. Not sure but I believe the guy was from Italy and his sifu was from Vietnam.

If he ever see's him again I will ask for more info..

Ok. Have to run!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Brian,

I tried your email addy and it bounced back. Shoot me an email at info@wingchunkuen.com.

[WCnovice]

Rene,

Thnks for your reply. Email has been sent.

Regards

Jim R.,

Because of the way the VNWCK practionners do chi sao (circular motion with minimal elbow movements, rather than tan sao --->bong sao & fuk sao, for beginners), most of the people I have met, after 1, 2 yrs, even if their skills are not that good yet, they can still develop some kind of softness. There's a saying in VNWC "snake hand, crane leg/foorwork" and vice versa; I am sure it exists in other WC families

[reneritchie]

WCnovice,

Thanks, I'll go check!

I believe YKS/Sum Nung and also Jim's Gulao lineage do that kind of Chi Sao as well, as does Cho WCK.

We have a similar saying:

"Body like a standing crane, hands like swimming dragons."

[Jim Roselando]

WCNovice,


Yes. There is something about the circling hands chi sao that develops fluidity. No doubt that it effects your methods as the continuous motions/flowing of the cycle removes edgy or non soft qualities.

Since the hands dont stop the flow begins to cultivate.


Regards,

[WCnovice]

Beside the fluidity, there are many other things you can benefit from practicing circular chisao, or just drawing circles with your hands, as long as you are observing and being aware of what you're doing. IMO, that's the first step to the essence of VN WCK. Re. what's been written lately, I think if you want to make a judgment on someone's WCK, the best way is to touch his/her hands, instead of looking at his forms and searching for differences/similarities. Rene, who is certainly very knowledgeable of WC history and lineages, might have jumped to the conclusion about VNWCK a bit too quickly, having collected pieces of info. from questionable sources. Sometimes it takes more than few emails, or phone calls, or even face-to-face interaction.
Regards,