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reneritchie
05-14-2003, 01:41 PM
If you want someone to share with you, to give to you, or otherwise to help you, is it important to first cultivate a relationship or establish a bond with them?

In real life, do you just pay your money and show up for class, be a consumer and consume your MA product, or do you need to develop a rapport and friendship with your teacher in order to ensure you get quality instruction (much as developing a rapport with your butcher might ensure you get the better cuts and preparations of meat).

On the net, can you expect people to spend time and effort supplying you with information they worked hard and consistently to attain just because you ask for it and expect it to be handed over, or do you need to establish a relationship in that regard as well and build some form of trust and good faith so that the channels of sharing can really be opened up?

Has the culture of entitlement, where everyone thinks they're owed something and should just get whatever they want because they want it, replaced the culture of relationships, or is it just a filter for the superficial leaving those who still understand the important things freer to get on with them?

(And is this why I keep getting all those "please send me all free books and videos" emails?)

kj
05-14-2003, 01:58 PM
Despite phrasing in the form of a (rhetorical?) questions, you are spot on. We aren't "owed" anything, save what we earn.

Regards,
- kj

yenhoi
05-14-2003, 02:06 PM
Is this in regards to Wing Chun or Weng Chun?

:eek:

sel
05-14-2003, 02:18 PM
rene ritchie, you are making a good point here. my guess is that different people will expect different things. sharing your dinner is a fine thing to do, but if your guest eats it all and leaves you hungry you'd probably be less inclined to share again.

PaulH
05-14-2003, 02:22 PM
Rene,

While I still ponder your question, would you mind send me a list of what free books and videos that you have and they have not? This may be the first telltale sign of the proletariat struggle for equality. Back in Viet Nam, everyone is equal - equally poor and ignorant. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

AndrewS
05-14-2003, 02:28 PM
Hey Rene,

IMHO, rapport and relationships are a major part of meaningful interaction. I find the more I give out, the more I get back, from people who operate under the same system. Once someone displays an inability to operate under this system (i.e. they cannot and will never give something back)- I walk away, and leave them to their folly.

Later,

Andrew



[I actually do chat with my butcher and fishmonger to get the nice cuts and stuff just off the truck (and to be steered away from the stuff that's been around a while). Braised beef bones make for an excellent stock for a stew. Mmmm, liquid protein. . . . and that catfish from the other night. . . .mmmm. . . my girlfriend finally understands why the final day in Goodfellas makes so much sense to me]

Alpha Dog
05-14-2003, 03:12 PM
Some people think they give and give and give and never get anything back -- some of these people need to think harder about why that is (ie why they feel that way). It's a pretty serious allegation to make of someone, to accuse that person of being a parasite. Of course there are parasites out there; I just think people should be careful who they label.

Maybe if the generic you thinks you don't get anything back, maybe it's because you discount what is being offered by 100%. Maybe. Just blabbin'

anerlich
05-14-2003, 03:39 PM
One of my Sifu's mottos is "no one rides for free". He certainly doesn't.

That said, the academy is built on relationships. If your training is only about you and what you can get out of it, what an empty and sorry regime that must be.

In one of the books by Hoffstatter (sp) and Dennett (The Mind's I, Godel Escher Bach, and others) they mention a contest amongst computer simulations, where each had a strategy, either helping or hurting another in each interation based on specific rules.

The strategy that fared best was "tit for tat", basically treating the other entity with respect and helping them at the first interaction, then doing whatever the other entity did to them last time at the next interaction.

Don't ask me for details, but that was basically it. Seems to work well for me, and I've been let down very seldom.

I recommend Geoff Thompson's "The Formula" from his website.

PaulH
05-14-2003, 04:26 PM
On 2nd thought, the question is also unsettling on some aspects.

"If you want someone to share with you, to give to you, or otherwise to help you, is it important to first cultivate a relationship or establish a bond with them?"

Frankly, even if people are very nice and diplomatic to me, I can only give back diplomatic gestures in kind. Trust is all I need from them in a true relationship. Such thing like the WC punch comes from the heart. Show me your heart and I’ll show you mine.

Regards,

Alpha Dog
05-14-2003, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
Trust is all I need from them in a true relationship.

Is that all? LOL Paul, trust is the hardest thing to obtain.

AndrewS
05-14-2003, 04:46 PM
Andy,

Dennet went over that life simulation in 'Consciousness Explained', I believe.

Andrew

PaulH
05-14-2003, 04:53 PM
AD,

Just for me, trust can come when I am willing to believe and hope on that unseen and unretainable. Clouded memory helps. I guess that is why people complain often that I have a very bad memory.

Regards,

reneritchie
05-14-2003, 10:20 PM
I can forward you all the "please send me all free books and videos" requests for immediate fulfillment then?

mun hung
05-14-2003, 11:40 PM
How about mutual respect for one another both in and outside of the kwoon?

captain
05-15-2003, 03:08 AM
..well,i for one MUST say this wholeheartdly.i am ashamed....i am
guilty....we must all be ashamed...we have pushed poor rene one
tan sau too far...and his bong has broken...not to mention his
heart......the aim of this/his thread is clear...as clear as a sky of
wonderous blueness...it is a cry...nay a plea for help...for sympathy....for kindess....and we are all the culprits...we are all
the wrong do'ers.......when i asked rene for ma advice..instead of
the please and thank you's i used..i should have used words like
"your greatness"...."your hignessness"...."swellness""...and i didnt....and you didnt...yes,you...and he's slumped..........i paid for
the books [yes,rene, paid/both]...and never asked for anything for
free...except the sum nung article...still available.......and yet the
thread [none cyber] that binds rene's soul is hurt and injured.....
...like his left foot...we must all now rally to rene's plight..we must
now all do our part to lift rene up above the downess..and replace
..him up where he belongs....what do you say folks.........KJ...i want you to find him a gilfriend.......guys lets take rene out to the
clubs....get him drunk..let him talk the sorrow out of his system...
..this can be done....because after all.....being respected by literal
..strangers online..is the true mark of a worthy "realationship.....
...right.........r...........u.................... s............................s................

Alpha Dog
05-15-2003, 04:06 AM
RR, where are my free books and videos??!!

LOL, just kidding. I already downloaded all your stuff for free with Kazaa.

PaulH
05-15-2003, 07:45 AM
You are too kind, Rene. I think I will decline your generous offer for this immediate gratification. The NOW organization and its people tends to make me rather nervous with their claims and agendas. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

captain
05-15-2003, 07:52 AM
.........you must pity the ritchie...for he only has a chinese master
...to teach him wing chun...and is only a published author....only
...writes in ma magazines at will...........blessings and count your..
..spring to mind!!!

russ

reneritchie
05-15-2003, 08:33 AM
Russ,

I'm interested in your perspective on this. You emailed me for help with something, I helped you. You emailed repeatedly to complain I wasn't helping you fast enough, I took the time to explain that I was doing the best I could with the time I had available and that if you would be patient, I would respond to you (which I did). You've continued to ask my help and advice, and I've continued to give it. Perhaps there's no value to my help and advice, but you asked for it, and I gave it.

You've also repeatedly asked for more. You've said that since I was "lucky" enough to "stumble" onto a good teacher, I owed everyone else, namely you. You know nothing about what I went through before I met my sifu, nor what I've gone through to learn what I have, nor the full scope of what I've already given back. You feel entitled. I understand that.

You've also repeatedly taken to insulting others here, myself included, for "talking" too much, yet you are here, participating and talking. You have insulted others, yet when I or others have disagreed with you, instead of considering it (especially from people whom you've previously sought advice), you've become defensive, then even more insulting.

Now you're personally attacking me.

You're an artist. You know what it takes to produce art. It takes raw, painfully self exploration and insight. Real art demands that.

You're an artist. You know the value of feedback. You know adoration and "yes, great" is BS, and academic rationalisation is useless. You know the kind of feedback that's needed, and you know what reaction to it is beneficial.

So, despite your personal attacks, I thank you for your feedback.

Please understand, however, you bought my books, thanks, I appreciate it. I don't owe you anything else for reading them. You don't owe me anything else for writing them.

I buy lots of people's books, I've even exchanged emails with a few of them. I've never been demanding, always been polite, and never expected (much less presumed) anything else from them. Perhaps we have different social values.

I'm not sure how old you are, but before you continue to unload on me, please reconsider your preconceptions, your entitlement issues, and think about what I said about building relationships. You came to me for advice before, don't get b!tchy when the advice isn't to your liking.

AndrewS
05-15-2003, 09:13 AM
Hey Rene,

correct me if I'm wrong, but the financial gain you've received from the two books you've written is minimal or net negative compared with your expenses and time. In addition to training, you've learned another language- no small undertaking- travelled to China to do research. You've authored two books, something which is a huge amount of work, from what I've seen, and set up a fairly extensive electronic library in your website. Much as people try to tar you with various conspiracy brushes, either you sure as h*ll aren't in it for the money, or you're the dumbest businessman I've seen.

You were in the right place at the right time, recognized that fact, and ran with it, busting your *ss.

Forgive me if I identify with you a bit here- every so often one of my peers in from out of town tells me how 'lucky' I am to be training WT in LA with Emin Boztepe. My 'luck' consists of finding a good WT exponent, then finding a better WT exponent, training for 6 years travelling inordinate amounts and excluding all other social activity, then uprooting my life to move to Los Angeles, getting a job I could train around, moving to a location near my school.

I regularly train juniors of mine who will come to LA to train for six months or a year- saving, scamming, and working in order to make it out here to sharpen their skills, then living in youth hostels, or a more dangerous environment in which they may be brutalized at any time (well, actually, that's my couch, I tend to put folks up, and appearantly some of my sidai have been wont to complain about practice continuing til 1am while alcohol is involved). I hear folks call these guys 'lucky', too.

I don't know about you, but it gets really old for me hearing about 'luck', with the implication that everything just drops in your lap. From what I can tell, 'luck' seems to consist of a small measure of opportunity and a huge chunk of work- one so big it could only be undertaken as a labor of love.

Later,

Andrew

kj
05-15-2003, 10:40 AM
Andrew scores another home run.

"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it." - Thomas Jefferson

Regards,
- kj

Geezer
05-15-2003, 11:45 AM
AndrewS Wrote>

travelled to China to do research

I think this was work related( not WCK research) from what I remember.....unless he's been recently????

Sheldon;)

PaulH
05-15-2003, 12:08 PM
Don't you ever get tired of these in-fightings? I do. I guess it's time for me to pack looking for other kids to play elsewhere. Just don't want to be a casualty number in the warzone.

Best wishes and regards,

reneritchie
05-15-2003, 12:28 PM
Hey Paul,

Hang around, just put the trolls on ignore (click on the profile icon to open their profiles, then choose place this user on ignore).

AndrewS,

Thanks.

KJ,

I remember a fighter saying something similar. "The more I train, the luckier I get".

anerlich
05-15-2003, 03:53 PM
I've bought both Rene's books too. I buy lots of books. I bought Royce's and Rigan's and John Will's BJJ books too. I don't expect to be able to email them and ask lots of questions, let alone get free stuff.

You sound like a little kid whose Mommy won't buy him an ice cream.

AndrewS is as usual, correct.

Geezer:

I think this was work related( not WCK research) from what I remember.....unless he's been recently????

And the relevance of that is ... ? Are you stalking me too? If so, I'm going to Europe next month, and no, it ain't WC related. Make sure eveyone on this forum knows. Do you want my calendar for the rest of the year?

canglong
05-15-2003, 08:25 PM
(Rene) "Much as people try to tar you with various conspiracy brushes, either you sure as h*ll aren't in it for the money, or you're the dumbest businessman I've seen. " AndrewS

hmmmm.

captain
05-16-2003, 02:48 AM
hello rene,firstly,thank you for the response,and we are roughly
the same age.[though at times i can act half that..such is life].
i think the problem here,and i mean this entirely,is that much of
my humour [the intent atleast] is lost in the translation or the
post.if i was to say to you face to face,the things i write,we
would all have atleast a small sized laugh.nothing i write that
could be deemed "annoying"should be taken as an attempt by me
to hurt or troll.that's never been my style,i detest the obvious and
deliberate way some people willfully visit sites just to rain on
peoples interests and dreams.and you can take that to the bank.

insults,never intended to make them.i am new to the ma world,
but have noticed that it is both insular,and sensitive to the extreme.i merely obserevd that sometimes there is a "technical
edge" to the way some of you talk about fights.and i find that
humorous.like ive said before.ive been attacked twice,and both
those times i used my judo to finish the fight.it was scary and
though the moves worked,neither encounter was textbook in
look.if you see.i should be allowed,rene,i should be,to say something about how "removed" your talks seem at times,
with out being accused of being a troll.rene,lets agree that some
here are all too eager to point the troll finger,lest someone disagree
with that person.and a bit of humor,surely,should never go amiss.
not in this day and age.

i have now finished that project rene,or the first part.and i
thank you for your help.because of who taught you,and your
knowledge, i asked for advice.if i was too eager for a response,
then it was my initial excitement at work,and not a desire to rush
you to move faster or to be rude.again,if it was face to face youd
see my point.[well maybe].

anerlich..my ship is not sinking.and my mother is one of the kindest people i have ever known,and weather permitting,
would for sure buy me an ice cream.

what it boils down to is this.rene and others,i have never once
intended to hurt or annoy you.however,if i did,i am sorry.some
of me gets lost in translation,and you all could lighten just a
tad.[groundhog day lineage and history threads,anyone].

this is obviously the wrong site for me,and maybe the wrong
style.

cheers,
Russell.

Alpha Dog
05-16-2003, 04:10 AM
This and all that is going on between Ross, Rachel and Joey is almost too much for my tender heart to bear!

WCis4me
05-16-2003, 07:17 AM
Ok at the risk of sounding like a complete idiot I will ask this question.
What is a troll?
It reads like it is someone who reads various posts and makes comments or gives input regarding them. If that is the case aren't we all trolls?:eek:
Is it only the people who do bashing that are trolls? Or the ones, as ultimatewingchun said, (loosely translated) who divert the original intent of the thread in various ways?
I know it sounds like a stupid question but I have never heard the term before coming here (and here I thought I was internet savvy, another bubble burst lol) and am a bit confused as to its meaning.

Rene, how does that ignore feature work? I realize that you have explained how to apply it, but do you still see their posts? Do they see yours? If so what is the purpose of it?
Thanks for any help on this.

reneritchie
05-16-2003, 07:20 AM
Hi Andrew,

Have a good, safe trip to Europe. Unfortunately, it seems "ignore" does not work on quoted messages, but at least they show that the trolls remain, as usual predictibly wrong. LOL! Every moment I was in China was strictly WCK, no business, no sight-seeing.

And why the #@$! hasn't Royce been returning my phone calls?! ;)

Russ,

If its just the old problem of "tone" over the net, then I apologize. I get my @$$ kicked (as you may have seen) pretty reguarly on the 'net, and so I might have become a tad over sensitive, or too quick to asume the worst.

As to this being the wrong board or the wrong art, IMHO, without misreading your tone, that sounds a little hasty. Black and white are not one too many options. Hang, enjoy, sip some tea, and ignore what annoys you.

kj
05-16-2003, 07:23 AM
from webopedia.com (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/t/troll.html)

troll

(v.) (1) To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding.
(2) To surf the Internet.

(3) To hang around a chat room reading the posts instead of contributing to the chat.

(n.) One who performs any of the above actions.



Enjoy.
- kj

WCis4me
05-16-2003, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by kj
from webopedia.com (http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/t/troll.html)

troll

(v.) (1) To deliberately post derogatory or inflammatory comments to a community forum, chat room, newsgroup and/or a blog in order to bait other users into responding.
(2) To surf the Internet.

(3) To hang around a chat room reading the posts instead of contributing to the chat.

(n.) One who performs any of the above actions.



Enjoy.
- kj

Thank you very much Kj.
Have seen several do #1 in this forum recently, guilty of #2 (think we all are), guilty of #3 as I read far more posts than I contribute to. I am just a novice in WC and try to gain some valuable insight from reading. I figure it can only enhance my training. Most of the people I see post here have far more knowledge and wisdom in the art so I tend not to contribute unless I am VERY sure that what I have to contribute has some merit.
The whole pride, don't want to look or sound like an idiot, I think they will tear me apart, is this really a place for beginners, syndrome affect. :D
So according to definition I guess I am a troll. Does that mean I will be ignored by all? Do I only have to associate with other trolls? (j/k vain attempt at humor)
I will go back under my bridge now ;)

marcelino31
05-16-2003, 08:22 AM
I too purchased both of Rene's books and I think they are excellent and informative. Rene, are you planning on making more books on the Yuen Kay Shan system and curriculum? I will be the first to purchase if you do!

kj
05-16-2003, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by WCis4me


Thank you very much Kj.


Quite welcome.



Have seen several do #1 in this forum recently,

That type of trolling is distinctly the more problematic variant.



guilty of #2 (think we all are), guilty of #3 as I read far more posts than I contribute to. I am just a novice in WC and try to gain some valuable insight from reading. I figure it can only enhance my training. Most of the people I see post here have far more knowledge and wisdom in the art so I tend not to contribute unless I am VERY sure that what I have to contribute has some merit.

Me too, though I don't adhere as strictly as I probably should.



The whole pride, don't want to look or sound like an idiot, I think they will tear me apart, is this really a place for beginners, syndrome affect. :D

Beginner, expert, or anything in between ... no good deed goes unpunished. ;) But it behooves us to be contributors anyway, and take the odd risk once in awhile. Else there'd be no sharing at all. :(



So according to definition I guess I am a troll. Does that mean I will be ignored by all? Do I only have to associate with other trolls? (j/k vain attempt at humor)
I will go back under my bridge now ;)

See you there. :p

Regards,
- kj