Fook Sao

[marcelino31]

Some lineages, like TWC, perform a fook sao like the way a dog holds their paws - this as opposed to the more usual flat fooksao where the the blade of the hand is held parallel to the ground. Any benefits or reason for differences in the position of the fook?

[anerlich]

There are of course arguments for doing it both ways, but IMO this way allows a slightly tighter mechanical lock on the opp's arm, and consciously keeping the elbow in and the energy in a front/back up/down plane rather than intoducing a sideways aspect.

Not to say the other way doesn't have its own advantages.

For someone who gave up TWC for another lineage, you sure seem preoccupied with it ....

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by marcelino31
Some lineages, like TWC, perform a fook sao like the way a dog holds their paws - this as opposed to the more usual flat fooksao where the the blade of the hand is held parallel to the ground. Any benefits or reason for differences in the position of the fook?
Hi Marcelino,

For purposes of strengthening the wrists, my lineage bends the Fuk Sao with the hand bent back at the wrist in the execution of Sil Nim Tao. Technically, this is not a Fuk Sao as you have realized. The proper Fuk Sao for us is relaxed but straight at the wrist. In application, the wrist is kept so relaxed that it's Ok to let it wrap around the opponent's arm when absorbing his forward arm movement.

Lineage:
YM > Leung Sheung > Ken Chung = Ben Der

Regards,

[Wingman]

Each type of fook sao has its strengths and weaknesses.

Bent wrist fook sao:
Advantage - the elbow is closer to your centerline. Good for defense of the inner gate or if your opponent's hand is in the "inside" of your forearm.

Disadvantage - not as "offensive" as the straight wrist fook sao.

Straight wrist fook sao:
Advantage - more "offensive" than bent wrist fook sao for the following reasons:
1. it has a longer reach than bent wrist fook sao.
2. since the fingers are pointing towards the opponent, it can be easily converted to a strike.

Disadvantage - the elbow is not as close to your centerline as bent wrist fook sao. If you are not careful, the elbow may even stick out and it could be a hole for your opponent to exploit.

We use both in application. But when performing SLT, the bent wrist fook sao is used.

[sel]

i think bending the wrist puts tension into the forearm, which in turn puts tension into the shoulder which then affects the stance.
i'm taught to have a relaxed wrist, so it is bent, but not as an effort. it just hangs naturally. this encourages relaxation through to the shoulders and into the stance.

[tparkerkfo]

I am not sure why different people do it different and can only pass on a few words about the fuk sau. Wong Sheung Leung seemed to beleive that the bent wrist fook sau was the way to go. At least this is what I picked up from some of his students and from his video. The idea I heard was it is easier to hit from as the hand is halfway in position. I am not sure I agree with that idea, but who am I to argue with WSL? But then, I am not sure if those were actually his words or not. The bent fook sau seems to have a different feel in it than the other. I suppose you can argue about its feel and forwardness.

I have personally practiced the flatter fook sau. As John mentioned, the flat fook sau is in application and the bent is in the forms. The forms are not pure application and many things are done different in them. The flat fook sau has an impressive structure in itself. There are times when the tan and fook can be interchanged in many respects, however usually one may be better for a given situation structurally. I was taught that fook sau offers many advantages over tan sau. Also, the flat tan sau offers a bit better sensitivity because the underside of the forarm and the palm, both being the most sensitive part of the arm, are in contact with the opponents bridge. The bent fook sau places the side of the arm in contact.

Obviously my thoughts are one sided to what I studied. I don't think either are supperior, just different. Kind of like blood red and brick red. Similar, but different. You probably don't want to substitute one for the other. Each works in their context.

Just some thoughts
Tom
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[anerlich]

The original question concerned the rotational orientation of the fuk sao, not whether the wrist was bent, but what the heck...

IMHO Tom is correct - good SLT requires full, relaxed movement at the wrist, and full manipulation of it during the form.

I can bend my wrist without tensing it - If anything, I think it takes more tension to keep it (perfectly) straight. I find I naturally have a slight bend in the wrist when relaxed in fuk sao position, and I only fully flex it in SLT while performing huen saos, tarn saos, jut saos and the like.

[mun hung]

IMHO - it is the elbow that is most important in fook sau and not the hand.

[kj]

Enjoying everyone's comments on this question.


Originally posted by Wingman
Straight wrist fook sao:<snip>
Disadvantage - the elbow is not as close to your centerline as bent wrist fook sao. If you are not careful, the elbow may even stick out and it could be a hole for your opponent to exploit. [/B]

Just a FWIW on this. I agree with the "tendency" for the elbow to want to fly out with the flat fook sau, especially in novice stages of training. In our way of training, we do prefer the flat position in application, and with sufficient practice, the elbow position ceases to compromise itself. I agree with your choice of "careful" as the operative word.

I agree with John and Tom about our preference and reasoning for the flat fook sau. Additionally, by having primarily the soft part of the forearm in contact (rather than the bone edge), it increases the challenge for the opponent to perceive and control our movement; some may not even feel threatened by it. This is in part where they perceive that "soft" feeling, which they may later agree is more like "iron wrapped in cotton."

Others MMV.

BTW, it's neat to note that a dog's "fook sau elbow" is naturally down, since they don't have the shoulder rotation required to let it fly out. I don't know why I that fact appeals to me so much, but it does, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[vingtsunstudent]

concerning the flat or hooked wrist, i have heard that in the old days everyone practiced it with the wrist straight, the reason the bent wrist came about was because with a straight one to many were placing to much emphasis on the wrist to control the movement rather than the elbow and thus by bending the wrist you can now focus on the correct way to do the movement without the wrist becoming involved.

this may be just a story made up to play with me but it is one i find a great deal of truth in.

odviously some are going to do the movement correctly with the wrist straight but having had to teach myself i have noticed that by bending the wrist it does make it easier for beginner to understand the movement as it should be exercuted.

what do you all think?

vts

[marcelino31]

One thing that I have observed is that the way Fook Sao is trained in SLT and Chi Sao is very rarely used in a real fight.

The concept of Fook Sao extends to other motions such as Jut, Huen, and gan which seem to be more used in application.

I once saw a photo of samuel kwook doing a fook sao defense against a strike but it doesn't seem logical to apply fook that way.

What do you guys think.

[WCis4me]

anerlich wrote:

I can bend my wrist without tensing it - If anything, I think it takes more tension to keep it (perfectly) straight. I find I naturally have a slight bend in the wrist when relaxed in fuk sao position, and I only fully flex it in SLT while performing huen saos, tarn saos, jut saos and the like.

>I agree. Letting it bend in a relaxed fashion feels more natural.

mun hung wrote:

IMHO - it is the elbow that is most important in fook sau and not the hand.

>I agree with this as well, although the hand is the fook and is important, if your elbow is not placed correctly your hand will not be either.

Kj wrote:

I agree with the "tendency" for the elbow to want to fly out with the flat fook sau, especially in novice stages of training.

>this is something that I struggle with that is probably why I like the bent. Shoulders staying in place is something else that seems like it will always be a work in progress for me :( I have to really think about that stuff still. All the senior practictioners I see seem to do it effortlessly so I guess it will come in time.:cool: It really was easier being a critical observer ;)

vingtsunstudent wrote:

i have noticed that by bending the wrist it does make it easier for beginner to understand the movement as it should be exercuted.

>I totally agree as a fellow beginner.

[Lindley]

Marcelino31,

I believe Yip Man played the bent wrist (in Chi Sao) because of his height. The bent Tan Sao as well. Most were taller than he was. It is very useful for the size handicap as you tend to draw your opponent to play down, not making use of his height advantage. Keep in mind that many students may have played it this way "because Yip Man played it this way - it must be right...".

Initially, the Siu Nim Tao should be practiced with the intent of understanding the nature of the Fuk Sao, which is controlling hand. The bent wrist is very good for developing strength in the wrist and forearm. One of my famous Si-Boks said "play the fuk sao until you can see the blood in the wrist..." This is one way to play, to develope those strengths. The playing the wrist bent, as was well mentioned, can lead to a greater understanding of techniques like jut and huen sao.

One difference between the two ways of playing Fuk Sao that has not been mentioned is the area of contact. The more area of contact, the greater you gain in sensitivity (helping reduce reaction time). The bent wrist gives less contact area than the flat wrist.

Put both methods in "the laboratory" and discover for yourself what the pros and cons are for each method.

Good Luck in your Kung Fu!

[PaulH]

One can look at Fook Sau as a tool of control and feelings. In SLT one should do the fook with the feeling of trying to control the resisting forward tan sau. If your hand is limp, you cannot duplicate that resisting experience, while if you bend your wrist, you will re-create a certain tension along the wrist and forearm. This is important for the training of "Receive what comes" . In a way, the fook is a yin and yang hand as it can generate different kind of tension. It can be soft as water or hard like a steel bar matching its receiving end. It can glue or diffuse force depending on how good you are at sensitivity and how much control you have on the tension of your own fook hand.

Regards,

[anerlich]

I agree with mun hung that elbow position is paramount. If your elbow position is not correct, particularly with fuk sao, good chi sao is impossible. If the guy can strike you directly without having to move your fuk sao elbow out of the path, the drill falls apart.

I also agree with Lindley; you want contact sensitivity to movement in as many directions as possible; bending the wrist over the arm may improve this.

Interesting story, vts.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Lindley
<snip>... between the two ways of playing Fuk Sao that has not been mentioned is the area of contact. The more area of contact, the greater you gain in sensitivity (helping reduce reaction time). The bent wrist gives less contact area than the flat wrist...<snip>

Isn't it the other way around? Bent wrist fook sao has MORE contact area than straight/flat wrist fook sao.

[anerlich]

Jeez Wingman, I shoulda read more closely. You are correct.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,

A couple commentsm

anerlich,
Thanks for the words. I always hope I am not way off base. We don't do the fook say perfectly straight, and I would agree that perhaps that would focus too much tension in the hand. We just lay it there. It actually probably bends a few degrees. The hand is usually relaxed.

KJ,

Whew!!! I guess I passed this one. LOL. It is hard to say anything when you have "Quality Control" looking over your shoulder. LOL. Actually, much of my info on Fook Sau actually comes from my time with Eddie rather than Ken. I was sure I would get some corrections.

Ving Tsun Student,
Interesting story. Not sure if I buy it, but who knows. Leung Sheung lineage advocates it and he was early. I am not sure about TST or Lok Yiu. Would be interesting to see. WSL was also considered early, though my information on him shows him favoring the bent fook sau. Maybe he learned it originally, or maybe he modified it as Yip Man did latter. I would have to pull out my book, but I think the Futsan people do it with a bent wrist, atleast in the forms.

marcelino31,
I think it depends on a lot of factors. WSL seemed to favor it in his video, which wasn't actually done by him. But his stuff shows a bent fook sau. I don't know what he really did in his real fights, but if your bridging, then you should use fook sau when it is appropriate. My experienece shows that fook sau is used all the time in application, though we use the flat one.

Lindley,

Why do you say what Yip Man did or didn't do? I wasn't aware of their being any footage, though I think there are a few pictures. It would be interesting. I think Yip Man did many things over his time. Hands probably melted into eachother, I would imagine as he could probably do what he wanted. I don't think people like Leung Sheung made up the flat fook sau, so I would think that Yip Man himself did it and taught it. Perhaps he changed is practice of the fook sau, or maybe he deceived some students, or maybe there wasn't much distinction to him, or maybe there are really two fooks saus, tan saus, stances, etc. LOL.

Wingman and anerlich,
I think the flat fook sau has more surface area and a more sensitive part of the arm in contact. Though I am not a practicioner of the bent fook sau so I could be misjudging it. From my understanding, which came partly from WSL's video and from a seminar of Michael Lousion (WSL Lineage), the bent fook sau is on the pinky side of the arm, forgot my anatomy lessons. This allows a much less sensitive portion of the arm to be in contact, and an area with a large radius that reduces surface area. The flat fook sau as I do it lays the inside of the arm ontop of the opponents arm, along with the palm. This gives you the flater radius of the inside of the arm, the palm, and the fingers all feeling the opponent. Now, I am not arguing that sensitivity plays a signigicant role in the bent fook sau, so it may not be an issue. But the flat fook sau is concerned with maintaining that sensitivity. Of course, I am probably not even close in my understaning of the bent fook sau.

Tom
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[mun hung]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel that my arm is much more relaxed and more sensitive with my hand bent to the side instead of downwards like a dog's paw. I also feel that my elbow (which is the real controling factor in fook sau) covers my center better without as much effort. I was taught applications (fighting not chi-sau) with the very same positioning.

We all play the SNT in different ways and for different reasons.

Do you play the fook sau the exact same way both times?

Why? .....or why not? ;)

[Mr Punch]

Wingman: excellent analysis.

VTS: nice to see you, haven't been around much recently have you? Or was that me?:D

[Wingman]

Originally posted by mun hung
Maybe it's just me, but I feel that my arm is much more relaxed and more sensitive with my hand bent to the side instead of downwards like a dog's paw....

The way I perform fook sao in SLT, the hand is bent to the side. The tip of thumb is positioned between the middle finger and the ring finger... and of course, the bent wrist is relaxed not tensed.


Originally posted by tparkerkfo
...the bent fook sau is on the pinky side of the arm, forgot my anatomy lessons....

What is a pinky? As I understand it, it is one of the fingers. I'm not sure... but I think it is the small finger. I also forgot my anatomy lessons.:D

[WCis4me]

tparkerkfo wrote:

Why do you say what Yip Man did or didn't do? I wasn't aware of their being any footage, though I think there are a few pictures.

Yes, actually there is video footage to verify what Lindley was saying, I have seen it. It is Yip Man doing the complete SLT form. I have seen him in a Chi Sao form as well (although it slips my mind if that was video or stills). His wrist is bent (relaxed) in all.
It seems there is quite a bit of 'lost footage' that would probably quell a great deal of the speculation on several subjects, although not all of them I am sure ;). As for the question as to why it isn't released publicly, only the owners of the footage can answer that if they choose.

[kj]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
KJ,

Whew!!! I guess I passed this one. LOL. It is hard to say anything when you have "Quality Control" looking over your shoulder. LOL. Actually, much of my info on Fook Sau actually comes from my time with Eddie rather than Ken. I was sure I would get some corrections.

Ouch. <suddenly feeling somewhat autocratic and overbearing>
Note to self …

Regards,
- kj

[Lindley]

As mentioned in my post, the play of bent vs flat (or less bent) should be experimented by the practicioner. Each one does not violate the principles of the system. As Yip Man was smaller, he could utilize the "hooking" of the bent position to his advantage. It is quite reasonable to assume he knew of the flat or less bent technique but, as Sigung Moy Yat has mentioned, some techniques used by bigger Wing Chun guys (than Yip Man) would not work for his body type logically (i.e. like a standard tan sao). Larger Wing Chun guys had to adjust to accomplish the same result.

Techniques are meaningless without a system to support it.

Good luck with your kung fu!

[TjD]

do any of you have fook saus in your biu jee form? if so is the wrist bent inwards or relaxed like a dog?

[dzu]

From a technical standpoint - I use the 'flat' fook sao with a relaxed hand. There is no tension in the fingers, so the hand is almost cupped while doing the form in mid-air. In chi sao, the hand continues to stay relaxed, but will open up slightly due to the presence of my partner's tan sao. Eblow is down and finds the best spot to create a connection. Intention is forward yet seeking/sensing openings in my partner's structure.

I believe the 'hooked' fook sao is called Kau Sao (capturing/detaining) in my lineage.

From an application perspective - I find the transitions from Fook to Chum, Jut, Gum, Pak etc. easier with a 'flat' fook sao only because the the hand is in a more neutral position and doesn't have to be 'unhooked' first.

From a conceptual perspective - Fook implies subduing, controlling, and smothering so I would consider kau sao as a subset of the Fook Sao hierarchical tree. I would also group Chum, Jut, Gum, On, Pak, Lop etc. as subsets also. Essentially, fook sao is the 'seed' that these other bridges come from.

Dzu

[fa_jing]

"Essentially, fook sao is the 'seed' that these other bridges come from."

Agree with that one. In application, while sparring but not too intensely, I literally use it to ride my opponent's bridge, as sort of a "listener"

In intense sparring I am usually too busy punching, LOL.

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Hi All,

Why do you say what Yip Man did or didn't do? I wasn't aware of their being any footage, though I think there are a few pictures. It would be interesting. I think Yip Man did many things over his time. Hands probably melted into eachother, I would imagine as he could probably do what he wanted. I don't think people like Leung Sheung made up the flat fook sau, so I would think that Yip Man himself did it and taught it. Perhaps he changed is practice of the fook sau, or maybe he deceived some students, or maybe there wasn't much distinction to him, or maybe there are really two fooks saus, tan saus, stances, etc. LOL.


Tom

Hi tom, I have video footage of Yip Man doing SLT and his fook sao is flat and relaxed not turned in and tensed..

[marcelino31]

Originally posted by TjD
do any of you have fook saus in your biu jee form? if so is the wrist bent inwards or relaxed like a dog?

Yes there is a fook sao with trin ma in the jeet sao section of my biu jee form. The fook starts out flat and then performs a heun sao followed by chang cheung

[tparkerkfo]

Hi KJ,
Sorry, I should stay away from humor. Not my strong suit. LOL.

marcelino31,

Yes I have seen some of the Yip Man footage. Mostly the SLT form. There ofcourse is some footage of the other forms, dummy, and pole. But someone made a comment about fuk sau in application and I don't think we have any thing to base that on except stories from others who were there 30-40 years ago. I don't think there is any video of Chi Sau, or atleast I have never heard any one speak of it. There are a couple of photos with Bruce Lee doing Chi Sau with Yip Man. However, They are static pictures and hard to see what is really going on.

Tom
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