Collar and Elbow Men

[Black Jack]

Here is a cool link with some neat old drawings on Norfolk collar and elbow style wrestling. Check out the cool technique names like "loose legs" and "howards hank".

The article also gives a bit of reference to the norfolk/cornish systems and their cuttlegging methods of kicking the shins and legs of the other grappler. Some of the pics look a little like filipino dumog unbalancing moves.

Wish I had some links on Irish collar and elbow.

http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/blofield/wrestle.html

If the link does not work first time around I will fix it.

Cheers

[Merryprankster]

Interesting--seeing some Judo type no-gi type throws. I like that the snapdown--one of my favorite takedowns and set ups, is the blackguard snatch.

Lots of footsweeps. Neat!

[rogue]

"It (Norfolk Wrestling) is useful; and I verily believe if there was an army of wrestlers engaged in a skirmish, and had spent all their ammunition, rather than turn their backs on the enemies, they would try their efforts and grapple with them, and make them stink a little matter of shoe leather"

I wish the pictures were better, but I think I've used the Flying Hobby a few times.

[Water Dragon]

In Shuai Chiao:

The Trippet = Froward March
The Loose Leg = Inner Hooking (If the guy on the right is throwing)
Blackguard snatch is downward pulling

The others could be a variety of things depending on what happened first and what happens next.

[Merryprankster]

WD,

one of these days, you and I have to sit down and work out common terminology.

[Water Dragon]

Now’s a good a time as any.

If you are stepping forward, and I sweep out your front leg, that is a Forward March. If your weight is already set in your front leg, I can still sweep it and that is still a Forward March. The difference is that I will pull your body toward me and down and my sweeping leg “posts” your front leg in that example. Since I am doing the same thing (an Iron Broom kick), they are both Forward March.

Imagine O Soto Gari without the reap, that is Diagonal Cutting. If I add the reap in, Judo Style, that is Diagonal cut with chopping. If I do a back kick to reap you, that is Diagonal Cut with a Ho Ti. If I bring my reaping foot up as in a crane stance and then slam my foot backward into a front stance, that is Diagonal Cut with breaking.

Chopping, Breaking, and Ho Ti can be done with a variety of throws. For example, I can do a hip toss with Ho Ti, an outside Shoulder throw with chopping or breaking, an inside shoulder throw with Ho Ti, etc.

Any variation of shoulder throw is bowing.

If we are in a standard wrestlers clinch, if I do a snap down and run backwards at the same time, that is downward pulling. If my clinch hand is on the opposite side of your neck and I pull and circle, that is head mopping. I can head mop by itself or add in a forward march.

If I swing my leg out and pull it back in to block the back of you knee while pushing you, that is leg hooking. If my leg comes between yours and hooks, that is inner hooking. If I do it from outside your leg and trap, that is outer hooking.

If I grab you in a headlock, that is neck surrounding. I can do it with a head toss, a chop, a break, or a Ho Ti.

Do these explanations make sense?

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, that's not too bad at all, really.

[FatherDog]

WD: Interesting.

Does SC have something resembling a double-leg or single leg takedown?

[Water Dragon]

Yes we do, but we don't use a penetration step.

To do a cannonball, either punch him in the face or shove him hard. as he is going back, drive in with your front foot between his legs. You must step in deep enough so that your front foot is behind his front foot. Slam him in the belly with the top of your head. To get the throw, pull in hard on the backs of his knees as you lift up your head (which is still in his belly) Lifting your head will pull him up and as you pull in, he will "spin" around your head which act as a fulcrum.

Single leg pick. Hit him with a right upper cut, then immediately change levels and grab his ankle with your left hand like you're going for an ankle pick. Pull on the ankle and slam him in the hip joint with your right elbow for the takedown.

Inner Lifting, drop down into a horsestance like posture. Hug his waist with your left arm and slam him in the groin with the crook of your right elbow (kinda like an uppercut movement. Merry, this is another application of elbow locking ;) ) Pick him up as in a standard lift then let your left arm fall and drive UP with your right. This will rotate his body in the air so that he comes down on his head.

[Water Dragon]

One more thing. In Shuai Chiao, shooting = bad. You can get rocked as you shoot in, or he can sprawl on you. Or what if he has a knife? Shots come from either the clinch or a punching combo as you want his body moving backward before you drop. If he's moving backward, he can't attack. It's more of a changing levels from the clinch than a standard shot.

[Merryprankster]

Well, I think we've all seen it's rough to get rocked as you come in on a shot. Just doesn't happen much. Plenty get rocked after the sprawl though!

If he has a knife I don't really want to clinch anyway. I don't see the shot as any better or worse in that situation.

[Water Dragon]

Agreed. But why take the chance if there's a safer way? Also, I've practiced palming my knife a lot so that I can have it in my hand when I'm walking through dangerous neighborhoods without anyone noticing it. Do you think I'm the only one who's practised that?

[Merryprankster]

I just don't see going for a throw of any sort as being inherently safer than shooting.

He has a knife and you clinch or shoot without controlling the knife arm or throwing him wildly offbalance immediately (and there are shot variations that do that--like my favorite, the sweep single) and you'll get stuck whether your trying to throw or shoot.

I guess I'm trying to say that I see no qualitative difference between the two here. I know SC is supposed to be fast and explosive, but so are takedowns. But if they aren't???? Well, you'll get stuck, regardless.

And if it's fast and slick, you won't--he'll be on his ass before he knows it whether it's an SC throw or a high crotch single to slam.

6 of one, half dozen of the other, IMO.

[Water Dragon]

Well, it could simply be a stylistic prejudice, I guess. But as a last resort to win this argument, try this in class tonight. As your opponent shoots for a double or single, jump backward and do dragging on him. I've had it done enough to me not to shoot anymore.

[Merryprankster]

WD,

That's a standard counter to a shot as well. Snap down and drag around. We tend to continue to pull forward, pressure the head down and go behind. Naturally, just beating the ever-loving **** out of somebody from that position is just as possible. :)

Good shooting posture and good set-ups tend to prevent the action you are talking about. However, I definitely agree it's a great tactic.

I suspect your annoyance with shooting comes from a lack of facility with the whole thing.

FWIW, that's not a slight. I don't really go for a ton of upper body throws--I'm just not very good at them. I work on that, of course, but if I'm "sparring to win," or in a match, I'll usually resort to leg attacks. I focused on leg attacks as a wrestler and a handful of upper body setups. You like throwing because that's what you do. You don't like shooting much because, I think, you don't do much of it.

If you don't like shooting, that's fine, but I think, just as I am reading what you are saying, that you are being a tad dismissive. Lower body attacks and upper body attacks compliment each other very well--threatening one or attacking one, often opens up the other.

[Water Dragon]

You are correct. I think it's because I have a major prejudice against the penetration step. I keep imagining a busted knee if I do it on the street. That may have something to do with the inadequacies of my shot.

I do like leg attacks though. And I agree with alternating with where you attack. It's known as Heaven and Earth. I just prefer to change levels from the clinch.

-edit-

I think you already know this, but I love ALL wrestling styles. Hey! grappling works; 'nuff said. And for the most part, they are very similar. Well, BJJ's different to me, but I love that too. I just think SC's the best. If I didn't, I'd be doing Judo instead. It would sure be a lot easier to find bodies to play with :cool:

[Merryprankster]

Actually WD, that's a fair prejudice. I've thought that to myself many times. But as I thought about it, there are a lot of different ways to do a penetration step and they don't all involve putting the knee down. As long as you break the plane of their feet, you're going to break their balance and that will allow you to play.

I doubt I'd shoot a sweep single in the street, and I admit that. I would do it in a park....

But, I would shoot a greco-double or use penetration steps to go for a high crotch or what have you. I suspect that what I would do looks VERY similar to what you might do.

We might be suffering from terminology again :cool:

[apoweyn]

Black Jack is the freaking king of obscure martial arts links. Hail to the king, baby.

[Black Jack]

My goal is to be the stephen hawking of obscure links.

Well...without the cool voicebox anyway.:D

btw-splatterpunk horror rules-long live Edward Lee!

(I am just finnishing up Monstrosity now and I am on a high-though I would not put this book into the older works it has a lot of the same go for the full tilt boogie)

[SevenStar]

ya know.... all of this terminology clarification would go perfect in the Ultimate Grappling Thread I had going... (hint, hint)

To add to it though, WD, the sweeping as the opponents steps forward would be similar to de ashi barai, ko soto gari and hiza guruma in judo, depending on the angle you swept him and which foot you used.

the ho ti is also used in judo in techniques like o guruma, uchi mata and harai goshi.

[SevenStar]

okay... just looked at the pics - let's see...

the trippett - looks like ko uchi gari

the loose leg - similar to o uchi gari

howard's hank - ko soto gake

the flying hobby - harai tsuri komi ashi

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Black Jack
My goal is to be the stephen hawking of obscure links.

Well...without the cool voicebox anyway.:D

btw-splatterpunk horror rules-long live Edward Lee!

(I am just finnishing up Monstrosity now and I am on a high-though I would not put this book into the older works it has a lot of the same go for the full tilt boogie)

Weird. That book is sitting about 5 feet from me as I type. I finished it a couple of weeks ago.

Great minds.

His other books as good? Or better?


Stuart B.

[SevenStar]

go to http://www.savateaustralia.com/ and check out the article "Dirty Tricks of the French Apache" There's a technique like the cannonball there.

[Chang Style Novice]

Okay, I was doing this in pm with Black Jack so's not to derail this thread but now that it's officially no longer my fault if the thread goes off track...

If you like excitement and gore, Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679728759/qid=1053102976/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-2662048-7693769?v=glance&s=books) is the book for you.

edit -

What's more, it seems to be based on actual historical events!

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/view/GG/fgl2.html

[apoweyn]

Horror based on historical events?!

Maybe that's okay according to your crazy moon logic. But not me, pal!

:)

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, the historical event in question IS a bloody mercenary scalp hunt along the Texas/Mexico border in 1849.

So there is that.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Well, the historical event in question IS a bloody mercenary scalp hunt along the Texas/Mexico border in 1849.

So there is that.

Well, I'm sold. Thanks for the recommendation. :)

[Black Jack]

Lee's books on the collector market are pretty pricey as they are a bit rare. Books like Goon and Big Head. Lee is the master of what he calls redneck horror. Full of gore, wetness, and all out yummy sickness. It's as if the blood-choked b-movies of the 70's are reborn in his novels.

His old stuff is not for the faint of heart or those looking to read classical gothic horror by any means. I believe Goon won the most disgusting horror scene for 3 years in a row at the Annual Horror Writers Guild awards.

I am a late commer to splatterpunk as I thought it might be beneath me as a horror fan so I missed its heyday in the 80's but boy was I way off. I think some of its work is so much more pure than a lot of the quieter work I have read before. It takes the expression of more really is more to heart and I tend to agree with that expression now.

Another great author who I enjoy the most but just recently passed away is the late Richard Laymon. The man is my ideal when it comes to horror writing. Man is a legend in the field.

I have a signed copy of both Lee's and Laymon's work. Great stuff.

Since we are talking about horror I would like to vent and say that those Anita Blake series are so much buffy the vampire straight out copy off trash and I would dare someone to find me a more man hating author.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Black Jack

...and I would dare someone to find me a more man hating author.

Ryu

[Black Jack]

LOL:D