Shaolin Slow Form?

[Vapour]

I read it somewhere that Shaolin Kung Fu has a slow form know as "Long Hand". Anyone know anything about this, especially in relationship to Chen style.

[dezhen2001]

as far as i know its called "ruo quan" which means soft hand... i think from the pics i seen some postures are vaguely similar to Chen, but i also know some of the monks also train Chen as well nowadays.

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Vapour.

Chen TJQ has some Shaolin forms that form basis of their TJQ.
Mainly "Cannon pounding" and "Red Fist", one of the Chen founders studied at Shaolin Temple for a few years.

Shaolin also does internal training and does have other "internal" forms.

[Vapour]

Related question.

In aikido, even hard style differentiate which muscle to relax and which muscle to tense up, i.e. ying and yang.

If so-called hard style like shaolin has slow/soft form, isn't it the case that any kung fu in high level internal? Is taijiquan really unique?

[Laughing Cow]

Vapour.

I believe that all styles incorporate hard and soft principles, and it is further my believe that at high level all styles should be 50/50 internal & external.

Taiji starts of by developing the internal side first and the external later on.
Plus, I think the IMA lay a heavier emphasis on intent and the mental side at an earlier stage.

Read CZL's article in T'ai Chi magazine he talks of Kwan Dao weighing 250 pounds and other weapons.

Yang tries to hide the energy and power, whereas in Chen it is more apparent and obvious.

The internal/external classification of styles is still fairly new and was driven by a few IMA Masters at the end of the 19th Century.

IMO, too many people look at the labels and style names and by doing this look at the finger and don't see the moon it is pointing too.

Cheers.

[RAF]

Taizuquan (Emperor's Longfist):

I have seen about 1/3 of it demonstrated and readily see how Chen and Yang taiji could be derived from it based on its slow movement and flavor..

Cannon Pounding and Red fist surely would add the finishing touches.

Add taoist principles, jing luo framework and it all seems to make sense.

See Jarek's site for a comparison of sorts.

I don't know if anyone can sort out what originated from the shaolin temple and what was brought to the shaolin temple.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by RAF
I don't know if anyone can sort out what originated from the shaolin temple and what was brought to the shaolin temple.

I think it is impossible.

Looking at Asia and how the Temples were always considered "places of learning" many people went there to study things and would have exchanged info with other people.

I see the temple more as a "trading place" for MA and other knowledge, naturally the monks learned and catalogued a lot.

Also considering that a lot of MA seeked refuge in the temples to avoid prosecution and possible death.
In exchange for refuge they helped protect the temple and teach their knowledge to the monks.

I don't think that there was much formal teachings outside the temples and military, but that most MA picked up things from wanderering MA and trained those things till they met another MA or their old master again.

Just some random thoughts.

[joedoe]

My late Grandmaster taught an internal/soft Shaolin style called Wujiquan. It was nicknamed 'Buddhist Tai Chi' because it was practised slowly and focused on softness and structure. I learned a few forms from it but never really practice it much.

[Vapour]

Yes, this distinction between internal and external seems to be artificial. Chen is obviously more external/hard than internal/soft. If there is a quan which is slightly more external/hard than Chen, then there is another quan which is again little bit external/hard than the previous quan then another...., where do one draw line saying, if you cross this line you become external martial artist?

In fact few Yang stylist draw this artificial line between Chen and Yang to advance claim that Chen is not really a taijiquan.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vapour
In fact few Yang stylist draw this artificial line between Chen and Yang to advance claim that Chen is not really a taijiquan.

Agreed, it happens and appears to be a fairly recent development.

I wouldn't say that Chen is more external than Yang, but I think that YLC had other/additional influences that affected his TJQ and thus different emphasis is placed on different TJQ aspects.

Some quote I read on another BBS made me thing.

Yang without Chen is not Yang.

Which seems to be in agreement with some Yang styles like Yang Kwan Ping and a few others.

Cheers.

[fiercest tiger]

In YKM we have 3 internal slow moving meditations from monk Tit Yan who was a shaolin monk. Has concrete ball, wooden ball, steel ball training for internal work as well much more.

Kinda looks like taiji in some ways.


regards
FT

[GeneChing]

Shi Yanming actually claims a Shaolin taiji, but he's the only one I've heard make such a claim, and it looks like modified Chen to me (which is ironic since many think Chen is modified Shaolin Paoquan.) I mention that not as a comment on Yanming, but more of an acknowledgement.

Shaolin does have it's internal forms, as well as internal versions of more common external forms like Xiaohong. You might look at Shaolin Jingang (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/pr-gs008.html) for a more internal Shaolin form.

[dezhen2001]

there was an article in an old Qi Magazine in the uk - not sure if anywhere else written by a man called Tony Leung Yan Lon and he was trying to correlate the relationship between Shaolin Ruo Quan and Chen Taijiquan. It was just at the time when Shi Uan Zi first came over to the UK with also a visit from Shi Yong Xin accompanying. I think it was around the time they were trying to establish a school... but my memory is hazy. Got the issue somewhere.

dawood