Kung-Fu and Caucasian People

[yutyeesam]

I wonder which style of Chinese martial art in America has the most practitioners of Asian decent?

I've noticed that there is definitely a subculture in the African American community that gets into CMA.

And while it seems that all organized CMA in America is dominated by White people, it seems especially true in Jeet Kune Do. Particularly, I notice the lack of people of Asian decent in JKD/NHB centered arts. Any idears?

-123

[norther practitioner]

I wonder which style of Chinese martial art in America has the most practitioners of Asian decent?

Taiji

[Suntzu]

interesting… kinda sorta… the only asian kid I ever worked out with was Korean and this was @ a KF school…

[MasterKiller]

Hispanics now comprise nearly 13 percent of the U.S. population, which grew to 284.8 million in July 2001. That's up from 35.3 million, or 12.5 percent of the country's 281.4 million residents in April 2000.

Blacks make up 12.7 percent of the nation's population, up from 12.6 percent in April 2000. The black population grew by 700,000 in the 15 months after the census was released.

Whites remained the largest single population group, numbering about 199.3 million in July 2001, nearly 70 percent of all U.S. residents.

Asians are the next largest minority group after blacks and Hispanics, at about 12.1 million, or 4 percent of the population.

So, technically, only 4% of any class in America should be Asian. Take into account that Chinese people are only a small portion of all Asians in America, and you get the picture.

Maybe 1 person in 100 will be Chinese in any given population sample. And that's stretching it.

[yutyeesam]

So, technically, only 4% of any class in America should be Asian. Take into account that Chinese people are only a small portion of all Asians in America, and you get the picture.

Maybe 1 person in 100 will be Chinese in any given population sample. And that's stretching it. [/B]

But you're assuming an even distribution. My point is that the distribution is uneven. And so the issue becomes that of choice. Why do people of Asian decent gather most to ___ CMA and least to ___ CMA?

-123

[Judge Pen]

That's assuming an equal propoertion of each ethnic group is equally interested in the martial arts.

There is a subculture of African Americans interested in CMA and there may be a greater percentage in a CMA class then their proportion in American demographics, but I'm not sure why.

Because of obvious cultual connections one would think that there would be a higher percentage of people of asian descent in a CMA class then their proportion in American demographics, but that's not always the case. I'm caucasian and my finacee is Chinese but neither her or anyone in her imediate family has any interest or background in CMA. Go figure.

[MasterKiller]

Then I would have to say you are over-generalizing.

Different locations have different dispersals of races. I live in an area of the country dotted by military bases, so we have a dis-proportionate amount of Korean people here because soldiers who go to Korea tend to bring back Korean wives/husbands. So, in this area, Koreans study Tae Kwon Do, and white people study Shotokan, and lucky white people live close to one of the few CMA schools and study Kung Fu.

I dare say that in Atlanta, more Black people study CMA than Hispanics. But in Dallas, the situation is reversed. Just because the Wu-Tang clan takes Kung Fu, it doesn't mean all Black people only study CMA.

You can't say more black people take Kung Fu than Koreans without regarding the fact that there are more Black people in America than Koreans.

Just to say, I see more white people in JKD classes means that in your location, there are probably more white people there to study JKD. In other parts of the country, that situation may not occur in the same percentages.

[yutyeesam]

MasterKiller-
I concede to your point. It is way inaccurate to compare other races, and who does how much of what in relation to each other, because the demographics of location are radically different from each other.

However, I am still interested in the issue of choice, with the question of:
Why do people of Asian decent tend to gather most to ___ CMA and least to ___ CMA?
There has to be some generalizing...because what is available is a factor.

[Judge Pen]

True. These percentages are dependant upon so many independant variables that its imppossible to say what percentage of a cultural group will be interested in a type of martial art. I think your point was that the largest single factor would be the proprotion of an ethnic group in a certain location would dominate a martial arts class. I think that's undisputed. My point was that its not going to fall preciscly down the population percentages.

Wu Tang actually studies kung fu? I had no idea. I just thought they wanted to sound like bad a@@'s. Maybe I'll start to listen to them now

[norther practitioner]

TAIJI


LOL



Wu Tang actually studies kung fu?

You obviously don't read the magazine.....

Rza has been a student of Shi Yan Ming for some time.
Gene wrote and article about Rza at Wudan and Shaolin.

Dirt McGirt aka odb, he studies jailquan

[Judge Pen]

[i]

You obviously don't read the magazine.....

[/B]

I was being sarcastic. I heard that they studied kung fu. Actually, though, I had not read that article. Sorry Gene.

[Suntzu]

Dirt McGirt aka odb, he studies jailquan is that the southern form of 52 or a bastidized version of the Brooklyn style…
:D

[norther practitioner]

The lineage comes out of the Brooklyn Zoo.

Forms:
Raw fist
Shame on You Fist
Small frame Shimmy fist
Stomp
There is a drunken form
Snake fist
and Damage Fist.

:D

[apoweyn]

123,


However, I am still interested in the issue of choice, with the question of:
Why do people of Asian decent tend to gather most to ___ CMA and least to ___ CMA?
There has to be some generalizing...because what is available is a factor.

I guess the first question should be: Is that really an issue? What evidence do you have that it's a true statement at all? I'm not trying to be argumentative here. But do you know that there are more asians flocking to one CMA style than another across the board?

But even that's not enough. I would guess that taijiquan probably has the most asian practitioners. As a form of exercise. But if they're practicing solely for calesthenics, do they figure into your equation?

And of the classes I've attended, there have always been a percentage of asians that I would have expected. Quite a few filipinos in my eskrima classes. Quite a few asians in the JKD classes. I was never struck by the presence or absence of any given group. And I'd like to think that's not simply because I had my head up my arse.

:)


Stuart B.

[yutyeesam]

It's not an issue, but I'm making it one! ;)

And by all means, be argumentative- intelligent debates is what this forum is all about.
I'm trying to pose a question of race in a highly racialized country within the context of martial arts. Just havin' some fun!

Well, getting to your points, how do the number of Asians taking those martial arts you specified compare to the numbers of Asians taking other CMA, such as wushu, or Choy Lay Fut, or whatever?

Not sure about the taiji question. I would argue that it isn't martial arts if they're not training the combative functions (like push hands or martial applications) with the form.

[MasterKiller]

intelligent debates is what this forum is all about.
What turnip truck did you fall off of?;)

[yutyeesam]

LOL! I should have said that it what this forum *should* be about...
...on the rare occasion, it is!
:D

[Suntzu]

Arrggghhhh... MK u beat me to it...

[Kuen]

It is my observation that Chinese Americans don't have much interest in Martial Arts in general. I think that it is because it is the higher levels of education that tend to leave China for the USA and many simply find kung fu beneath them.

Of course then again Judo is the most popular art in China (after Taji of course) so maybe they are just tired of seeing Modern WuShu?

[yutyeesam]

Originally posted by Kuen
It is my observation that Chinese Americans don't have much interest in Martial Arts in general. I think that it is because it is the higher levels of education that tend to leave China for the USA and many simply find kung fu beneath them.

Of course then again Judo is the most popular art in China (after Taji of course) so maybe they are just tired of seeing Modern WuShu?

This is a good point. I think there is a little bit of a class issue involved, maybe? Isn't kung-fu seen as lower class, and Taiji seen as scholarly?

-123

[Kuen]

Isn't kung-fu seen as lower class, and Taiji seen as scholarly?

I believe this may be the case to many mainlanders. My friend from Taiwan says not many there practice kung fu because it is associated with the criminal underworld. They prefer TKD, Brazilian JuJitsu, etc.

[apoweyn]

123,


Originally posted by yutyeesam
It's not an issue, but I'm making it one! ;)

Nothing wrong with that, my friend. I agree that this forum should be about intelligent debate.


And by all means, be argumentative- intelligent debates is what this forum is all about.

What a pile of bullsh-t!

...

No, wait. Sorry. My bad. :)


I'm trying to pose a question of race in a highly racialized country within the context of martial arts. Just havin' some fun!

Well, getting to your points, how do the number of Asians taking those martial arts you specified compare to the numbers of Asians taking other CMA, such as wushu, or Choy Lay Fut, or whatever?

Well, that's the thing. I don't know. My exposure to CMA is fairly minimal. I studied taekwondo for about 6 years. And the race distribution there was pretty heavily weighted on the caucasian end. But the population of that area was weighted that way. I don't think it says much about taekwondo.

The eskrima school was more balanced. Still, the white students were a clear majority. But then, that's to be expected. There were a fair amount of filipinos. But then, there weren't a lot of eskrima schools at the time. So the filipino community knew about the ones there were. That community is pretty tight knit.

The JKD crowd were pretty eclectic, predictably enough.


Not sure about the taiji question. I would argue that it isn't martial arts if they're not training the combative functions (like push hands or martial applications) with the form.

For the purposes of this discussion, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Although, if you don't dismiss taiji on those grounds, it does offer a pretty simple answer to your question. Most asians practice taijiquan because of the lack of combative application (translating into a lack of injury, conflict, etc.) And no, that's not a commentary on taiji. Just on its practice as calesthenics inspired by martial art. In much the same way that criticism of taebo is not a criticism of taekwondo (Billy Blanks' style).

I'm not convinced any of that made any sense. :)

Stuart B.

[Suntzu]

hey the other thread just vanished...

[yutyeesam]

What the...?
Kung Lek, RENEGADE MONK-
What happened to my Kung-Fu and the Asian Fetish thread? That was a good discussion!

-123

[MasterKiller]

Deleting it was good for my soul.

[Taomonkey]

Woops sorry my fault,

shouldn't have put that link to the anime dolls taking a crap

Wont happen again

Sorry

[Suntzu]

Yeah Tao… fu(kin up an asian chick thread for the rest of us… but that's a d@mn good reason to get rid of ALL nukes… sexual repression and mutated DNA does not make a good mix…

Andy I think u got your Asian gangs confused… unless YOU take karate… Triads just smack you around and hit you with bottles… or use machetes… and leave you in the back of cargo trailers… atleast that’s what they told me on Young and Dangerous…

[cwheelie]

interesting thread... it has always seemed to me that African Americans study CMA disproportinate to their actual numbers in the general population. I think at my school they hold a slight majority (and sifu is African American), followed by Hispanic, Asian and us goofy white boys bringing up the rear. Although our 3 top students are evenly distributed - white female, african male, asian male.
Perhaps it's that when Hong Kong flix first hit in the 70's it was in the major urban areas (New York, Oakland, Chicago) and the action/athletecism appealed more to African Americans? A lot of white people have only been exposed to CMA since Jackie Chan started to hit it here - they have no idea who the Shaw Bros were....(And wasn't the guy who did the song Kung Fu Fighting black?)
so I guess maybe the reason for the perception/reality that there are disproportinate numbers of African Americans in CMA is that they were just ahead of the 'cool curve"....
Also, I live in a heavily Asian area, and most of the Asians I work with & know have no interest in CMA - many are 1st/2nd generation & seem to be resent being expected to study/know/like CMA just becuase they are Asian..... it's almost like a backlash that they refuse to study it so as not to give in to some perceived stereotype......
I'm outta here.....

[[Censored]]

It is my observation that Chinese Americans don't have much interest in Martial Arts in general.

Not much interest...or less interest then you think they should have as Chinese people? How many Irishmen can box?

This would make an interesting new thread: "why do white guys love JKD?" Who cares if it's true or not. ;)

many are 1st/2nd generation & seem to be resent being expected to study/know/like CMA just becuase they are Asian.....

Surprise, surprise. So, cwheelie, do you enjoy mayonnaise on saltines? ;)

[cwheelie]

wasn't trying to be offensive (if you took it that way), just thinking out loud...
And one of my jewish friends asked me one day 'what is it with goyim and mayo anyway?"
As for white people - most of them that I know are into TKD. Why? Many take it up because they got their kids into first. or is it because there's a TKD place in every stripmall betwen the yogurt store and dry cleaners? But a good CMA school can be hard to find, and the choices are mind boggling (northern vs southern, external vs. internal etc etc)
I eat my saltines with peanut butter btw

[Kuen]

It is my observation that Chinese Americans don't have much interest in Martial Arts in general.

Not much interest...or less interest then you think they should have as Chinese people?


NOT MUCH INTEREST, d1ckwad, as in they are not interested in martial arts. I don't hold EPECTATIONS for others. However, you apparently do.


How many Irishmen can box?

This one can and fight with a shellelagh, too.


->Quit looking for something that's not there.

[norther practitioner]

or is it because there's a TKD place in every stripmall betwen the yogurt store and dry cleaners?

Thats funny, down the street from my school, in this strip mall, in between a frozen yogurt place and a dry cleaners..... a tkd school



I heard the guy from the cleaners got into a fight with the tkd guy next door and won....lol That school is the opitomy of mcdojo though... and the other guy is a grappler in all honesty, just sounds funnier the first way.

[apoweyn]

or is it because there's a TKD place in every stripmall betwen the yogurt store and dry cleaners? But a good CMA school can be hard to find, and the choices are mind boggling (northern vs southern, external vs. internal etc etc)

Well, it's difficult to find a good taekwondo school too. But in this area, there are a decent number of recreational martial arts schools for both CMA and taekwondo. I see your point though. There are probably still more dojang than kwoons.


Stuart B.

[Suntzu]

irony = my old TKD school in now a daycare... imagine dat :rolleyes:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by norther practitioner


Thats funny, down the street from my school, in this strip mall, in between a frozen yogurt place and a dry cleaners..... a tkd school



I heard the guy from the cleaners got into a fight with the tkd guy next door and won....lol That school is the opitomy of mcdojo though... and the other guy is a grappler in all honesty, just sounds funnier the first way.

Bah. The taekwondo school in my neighborhood is on the corner. So there's only a dry cleaner next to it.

Nice theory, chump.

:)

[cwheelie]

Bah. The taekwondo school in my neighborhood is on the corner. So there's only a dry cleaner next to it. Nice try chump
A chimp callin' me a chump?:D

[DragonzRage]

"And while it seems that all organized CMA in America is dominated by White people, it seems especially true in Jeet Kune Do."

What gives you that idea? At least back when I used to train JKD there were a lot of Asians doing it. You should also consider the fact that many of the most prominent people in the JKD community (Dan Inosanto, Ted Wong, Richard Bustillo, Taky Kimura, Yori Nakamura) are Asians.

On another point, I would hesitate to classify JKD as "organized CMA". Its more like "disorganized everything".

[joedoe]

Interesting because in our school it is predominantly Chinese/Asian students with maybe 5-10% Caucasian and a handful of Indians. I don't know what the makeup in other schools in Australia is like but I suspect it depends on the location of the school.

[yutyeesam]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
What gives you that idea? At least back when I used to train JKD there were a lot of Asians doing it. You should also consider the fact that many of the most prominent people in the JKD community (Dan Inosanto, Ted Wong, Richard Bustillo, Taky Kimura, Yori Nakamura) are Asians.

On another point, I would hesitate to classify JKD as "organized CMA". Its more like "disorganized everything". [/B]

Again, I think location definitely is a factor. If you're in California, there are many Asians. So then you'd have to compare the numbers of Asians doing JKD vs. other styles of CMA. Then compare that to other states who have similar and different ethnic breakdowns.

On your point about the prominent JKD figures, I know that a lot of those original students are of Asian decent. But look at the JKD demographics today. Much fewer Asians, especially compared to other styles of CMA. My question is "why?"

Unfortunately, the name JKD has become a brand, exactly the opposite of what Bruce wanted.

-123

[neit]

overall i'd guess that there is a fairly even representaion by population. wushu schools being the exception, which are usually full of adolescent chinese.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by cwheelie
Bah. The taekwondo school in my neighborhood is on the corner. So there's only a dry cleaner next to it. Nice try chump
A chimp callin' me a chump?:D

Who will be champ?

:)

[apoweyn]

On your point about the prominent JKD figures, I know that a lot of those original students are of Asian decent. But look at the JKD demographics today. Much fewer Asians, especially compared to other styles of CMA. My question is "why?"

Well, assuming for a moment that it's true, I'd guess that it's because JKD doesn't have a lot of the cultural trappings that other styles do. (And the first person to shout that JKD isn't a style gets a visit from the Bludgeon Fairy. Alright?)

A lot of people enjoy the cultural trappings. I certainly have. But a lot of people want to train in a more familiar context. JKD sometimes affords that opportunity. It's sort of plug-and-play.


Stuart B.

[shaolin kungfu]

(And the first person to shout that JKD isn't a style gets a visit from the Bludgeon Fairy. Alright?)

Jkd isn't a style!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


Jkd isn't a style!

[sigh] That's not shouting, chief. THIS IS SHOUTING!!

:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cwheelie
interesting thread... it has always seemed to me that African Americans study CMA disproportinate to their actual numbers in the general population. I think at my school they hold a slight majority (and sifu is African American), followed by Hispanic, Asian and us goofy white boys bringing up the rear. Although our 3 top students are evenly distributed - white female, african male, asian male.
Perhaps it's that when Hong Kong flix first hit in the 70's it was in the major urban areas (New York, Oakland, Chicago) and the action/athletecism appealed more to African Americans? A lot of white people have only been exposed to CMA since Jackie Chan started to hit it here - they have no idea who the Shaw Bros were....(And wasn't the guy who did the song Kung Fu Fighting black?)
so I guess maybe the reason for the perception/reality that there are disproportinate numbers of African Americans in CMA is that they were just ahead of the 'cool curve"....
Also, I live in a heavily Asian area, and most of the Asians I work with & know have no interest in CMA - many are 1st/2nd generation & seem to be resent being expected to study/know/like CMA just becuase they are Asian..... it's almost like a backlash that they refuse to study it so as not to give in to some perceived stereotype......
I'm outta here.....

MA in general, not just CMA can be included in that "sub culture", especially among hip hop heads. MA, gaming and hip hop all go together. Matter of factly, (since someone mentioned wutang actually training) there is a thread on here where we posted several hip hop heads who also train in MA. I can't remember the whole list, and will only name a couple of the ones that I do know here (If you really want to see it, you can do a search) - but on that list were

Dialated Peoples - at least one of them does BJJ
RZA - trains under shi yan ming
Ras Kass - BJJ

[MasterKiller]

and don't forget, Rikki Rocket takes BJJ!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Hispanics now comprise nearly 13 percent of the U.S. population, which grew to 284.8 million in July 2001. That's up from 35.3 million, or 12.5 percent of the country's 281.4 million residents in April 2000.


That's still probably grossly understated...remember, people that are here illegally will not be reported by the census...

[Shaolin-Do]

afu-ra is a 3rd degree blackbelt in tae kwan do
lemme think....
method man studied judo

Thats all I remember right now.
I produce hip hop :)

[norther practitioner]

I produce hip hop

Yeah in Texas......:o :rolleyes:

[whitewhirlwhind]

I hope this fits in this thread without becoming too intelligent of a debate.

This brings up an interesting point that I am doing for my schoolwork: I wonder what it means for a practice to be traditional and authentic. I was in a school that lit incense and paid homage to the givers of the system (but I wonder how much the system changed under the current leader or the ones before). But what right does the white teacher and my white self have to do this? Does it matter? How much of the “family” tradition can I understand since I grew up in a nuclear family? And what kind of loyalty does our culture teach? How traditional can I be?

Can I actually understand what “tiger coming down the mountain” really means because there aren’t many tigers coming down any mountains in FL. Not to mention the fact that the words are translated from the Chinese people, who write in pictures (mostly) anyway?

[[Censored]]

Jeru probably studied something. And Slick Rick the Ruler? He must know at least a few of those 52 blocks. :eek:

[neit]

the singer "kazzer" almost made the canadian olympic judo team.

[shaolin kungfu]

Are you seriously asking what right you have to respect someone?

Loyalty is an individual trait. That is to say, not all asians have it, and not all americans. So you may be very loyal, even if your skin is michael jackson white.

As for understanding the language, is it really that important? Tigers coming down mountains in china shouldn't affect your martial arts skill.

[guohuen]

You must now say three our Fathers and ten hail Marys for saying Rikki Rocket. (Oh shiite! I just said it!)

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by whitewhirlwhind
I hope this fits in this thread without becoming too intelligent of a debate.

This brings up an interesting point that I am doing for my schoolwork: I wonder what it means for a practice to be traditional and authentic. I was in a school that lit incense and paid homage to the givers of the system (but I wonder how much the system changed under the current leader or the ones before). But what right does the white teacher and my white self have to do this? Does it matter? How much of the “family” tradition can I understand since I grew up in a nuclear family? And what kind of loyalty does our culture teach? How traditional can I be?

Can I actually understand what “tiger coming down the mountain” really means because there aren’t many tigers coming down any mountains in FL. Not to mention the fact that the words are translated from the Chinese people, who write in pictures (mostly) anyway?

Listen you are practicing Chinese kung fu. Like it or not it is a part of Chinese culture and if you want to practice kung fu then you are responsible for keeping Chinese traditions alive that are part of the syste m wethere you like it or not. I'm not lecturing you though but that's the way how it is. Many times I see people complain how they don't want to do a "ritual" or whatever nonsense they call it but that's American thinking. They don't like doing anything done their way. Oh and I don consider my self Amreican by the way but I am not native to this country.

[whitewhirlwhind]

Shaolin,
I am saying that when I studied in China, loyalty meant something different than it does here. I cannot articulate it yet, but I felt it nonetheless. (finding the right teacher, school, etc. not withstanding)

We all know what the words "tiger coming down the mountain" mean, but do we know the physical or physiological meaning? How can I know what it is when the phrase is taken out of the Chinese context and put into my contemporary setting?

NM,
Yes, we must remember where the stuff comes from. But when is it okay for me to adapt the stuff to me and my background? Am I just too new at the stuff? When does it become authentic FL kung fu?

When can I take a "tool" that I am familiar (a fruitpicker is something I grew up with in FL) with and make a form that I can call a "kung-fu form"? Tang Lang did that with his knowledge, and we still see the residue from his experience. (I am certainly no Tang Lang, I know.)

Thank you for your input. I hope the discussion continues.

[TenTigers]

My school is about 20% Chinese, and I am Gwailo, and we are in a predominantly Latin neighborhood. Oh, btw, only a few Latinos in the school also, and some of the Chinese students travel from the city to come and train, so I guess we're an anomaly.

[Taomonkey]

JEWS in Ma?

I heard Dr Laura has a black belt in TKD or something. She could kick those Hip Hop guys right in the balls.

[apoweyn]

NorthernMantis,


Listen you are practicing Chinese kung fu. Like it or not it is a part of Chinese culture and if you want to practice kung fu then you are responsible for keeping Chinese traditions alive that are part of the syste m wethere you like it or not. I'm not lecturing you though but that's the way how it is. Many times I see people complain how they don't want to do a "ritual" or whatever nonsense they call it but that's American thinking. They don't like doing anything done their way. Oh and I don consider my self Amreican by the way but I am not native to this country.

Nah. I disagree. I think that throwing yourself into the cultural trappings is a perfectly valid way to approach gung fu. But not a necessary one. You are not responsible for chinese traditions "whether you like it or not."

I do believe that you enter into a social contract with a teacher when you attend his school. And that part of agreeing to attend that school is agreeing to his or her rules. But that's distinct from loyalty to an abstract idea.

Why would gung fu be any different from any other cultural heritage we've embraced? It adapts to form something different. The degree to which it adapts depends on the people involved.

I just don't understand the need to tell other people how they should conduct themselves in the martial arts.


Stuart B.

[HuangKaiVun]

I'm a Chinese guy who runs a traditional kung fu school and I DON'T tell others who to conduct themselves in daily living.

OK, I'll tell them to practice restraint when confronted with bad situations. But they don't have to be loyal to the school or me if they don't want to be. I'm "just a kung fu sifu".

A lot of "Americans" (notice I didn't point out a racial group) are natural born fighters. That's what it took for us or our parents to get over here in the first place. Because of that, kung fu appeals to those who are interested in learning how to do combat effectively and efficiently.

What I like about American students is that they don't brook the BS. If something doesn't work, they'll make faces or let you know about it. I just try to adjust to them without compromising myself, and usually what is good for them is good for me as well.

That said, I currently don't have a single Chinese student enrolled. Hopefully that will change, though.

[norther practitioner]

Good post HKV.....

A few things, this is why so many people emphasise finding a good sifu... a good sifu is also in the eyes of the beholder.

People need to stop putting people on pedestals like they do. It isn't bad to look up to someone for certain qualities, but when people put these guys up on pedestals, it is not a good thing, they get let down really hard if and when a mistake is made, or go the complete opposite and go into a denial state.

[whitewhirlwhind]

HKV,
My parents, too, were fighters, and that is why I am who I am. I am white, so I think it is okay for me to question that. In fact, it is a part of my work. I realize the fact that I say "I am white" sets me apart from others, but for me to find my truth, it is necessary. One day, it may not be. I do, however, understand that there are other Americans out there that aren't white.

That said, how much do you adapt your style to your students? Is it okay for one of your students to make up a form that suits their physical and vocational needs or strengths? I am thinking about a mason who throws bricks and would be able to use that movement as a strength.

I am asking you as a teacher, MA practioner, and an artist. How much "art" is there in the martial arts? This is the crux of my work in school and life.

I have trained with other nationalities who thought that my kung fu was weak (in many ways it is) because of my race (the French and Dutch guys I was with got the same treatment), but that is not what I am asking about. I am asking about the not so obvious cultural differences between different martial arts groups, ie. China, Israel, good ol' America, etc.

I smile when an EuroAmerican tries to out Chinese the Chinese because I wonder just how Chinese can I be in order to understand the traditional arts I practice and still be sincere?

I am thinking about the physical and physiological movements and positioning of my body. For example, when I was in the army everyone knew what the kemshi squat from Korea was. Many Koreans squat that way their entire lives. I saw this in China, too. Americans don't. What does that say about the movement of my practice? Another example is the idea of personal space. The Chinese people I hung around with have an entirely different idea of personal space than I do.

Thank you for your input, and I hope the thread continues.

[African Tiger]

Well thank goodness someone defined that "subculture in African Americans" thing! :rolleyes:

In all the arts I've studied over 20+ years, I can't remember training with more than 3 or 4 people of asian desent. It was always my impression that asian people wanted to assimilate as much as possible, so many of them avoided asian stereotypes (martial arts, laundry service, chinese take out) altogether.

Especially when everybody expects an asian person to be a "karotty master." Sort of like me automatically being good at basketball...well ok, bad example - I got game even with two bad knees!

cwheelie - your instructor is black and you live in Pasadena....do I know you? I study with Sifu Totten.

[whitewhirlwhind]

When I was in China I taught English to corporate executives in a petroleum company. They had no idea what martial arts were. Just like in the USA, I think most people in China only know what they see on tv or in the movies. Kung fu movies are to most Chinese what westerns are to most Americans.

Unless one is in the martial arts he has no idea what they are. I imagine that is cross cultural.

A good friend of mine has been doing kung fu for almost twenty years. His mother still asks how his karate is doing.

[yutyeesam]

Originally posted by African Tiger
Well thank goodness someone defined that "subculture in African Americans" thing! :rolleyes:

I'm not defining anything, I'm just calling it as I see it. Is my perception wrong?

I don't know what part of that offended you. That I was stating the obvious? If so, it was merely to build the point that, in general racial group x does this, racial group y does that, so what's the story with Asians?

You make a good point about why some Asians don't want to fall into stereotyped modes, and avoid taking martial arts altogether.

I've seen some Asian/American folks get into it as a form of cultural connect.

And I've even seen this unpredictable dynamic: Asian American kids have really embraced hip hop culture. They've even coined the "hip hop" way of spelling Asian as AZN. So rap groups like Wu-Tang Clan have influenced "AZN" kids to take martial arts through their marketing campaign via old kung-fu movies.

So mentioning the subculture of African Americans in CMA in the discussion of where the Asians are in Kung-Fu, I think, is relevant.

But no offense intended, at all.

-123

[joedoe]

All that and humble too! :D

[joedoe]

I was kidding. I just find the American ability to tell others how good you are kind of amusing. No offence intended, it is just different to what I was brought up with. :)

[Oso]

didn't look at the book that much but here's a link that seems topical to this thread:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?sourceid=00394776247099778148&ISBN=0807050105&bfdate=05-20-2003+23:16:53