WC fighting stance

[marcelino31]

What is your fighting stance when you are just outside of kicking range of your opponent. Describe your leg and arm positions.
Does it matter to have a stance or can a WC offense be applied from any arm leg position?

Do you like to have one foot forward and the other back -
a front stance - or do you prefer to have both legs back - a square stance - as practiced in SLT.

For your hands do you like doing an extended man sao with one hand, have a defensive wu sao near the crook of the man sao arm, and how far do you extend your arms out -- far away from your body or closer.

Do you like to keep your hands open and relaxed or more closed like forming a fist. Some have referred to the hands as swimming dragons. Do you think in terms of Triangle structure for using the arms?

When you are in your stance where do you focus at: opponent's eyes, solar plexus, nearest elbow and knee, or just use peripheral vision to focus on everything?

The other issue to consider is if you are much closer to your opponent do you have time to get into stance and sink your body structure or do you just immediately react at what is thrown at you.

[HuangKaiVun]

From whatever position I am (e.g. lying down), I try to defend myself.

That's my WC posture.

[Ernie]

a stance should never be seen just felt
stay natural
once you assume a posture ''traditional'' you just gave the other guy way to much information about yourself and a way to defeat you.

[marcelino31]

correct being natural is important but how do you like to stand in relation to an opponent a square stance or front stance?

[Ernie]

you need to something about me ,
i'm trained in wing chun,savate ,kali,muay thai,and boxing
so i have many different faces.
if i'm in long ''sniper range'' i'm squared up mostly but loose and on my toes moving around and taking in what i'm up against .
looking for his posture seeing what information he gives me .
kind of like a baket ball player or a tennis player sort of but with my hands up higher .
i like to stay just outside of his range so he will have to lundge at me and open himself up .
i often leave center open like bait .
but i can do this because i have good footwork timing and interception skills . not recomended for every one,
once i close the gap i tighten up my defense elbows in body gets narrow wieght sinks and all that .
if it just happens out of the blue then i have no time for anthing else just fight and hpe sensitivity kicks in and i go home that day .

[fa_jing]

One leg forward, never stop moving. I would fight starting with loosely closed fists.

[marcelino31]

Doesn't having one leg forward give your opponent a target?

[Ernie]

everything is a target

[yuanfen]

Practicing baijong with motion has many benefits....
provides the foundations...
In usages- one needs to be able to defend from any posture,

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ernie
i'm squared up mostly but loose and on my toes moving around and taking in what i'm up against .
looking for his posture seeing what information he gives me .
kind of like a baket ball player or a tennis player sort of but with my hands up higher . More like JKD, not Wing Chun...
This is a Wing Chun forum don't forget.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by yuanfen
In usages- one needs to be able to defend from any posture, Seems like a very general statement, but it is so very significant, especially when dealing with multiple fighters. That's why moving around too much is not good.

The notion of "natural stance" is fibre with no water.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by marcelino31
Doesn't having one leg forward give your opponent a target?

Yeah, a better target than the alternative!

[EnterTheWhip]

With a proper front stance, the target is not really a target.

[marcelino31]

I prefer a square stance with kiu saos held at solar plexus height and with an all "seeing gaze" as a fighting stance

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
You are awesome!

Why thank you!

[Ernie]

etw said[ More like JKD, not Wing Chun...
This is a Wing Chun forum don't forget.]
i'll pass on something that was said to me , '' when your on the ground looking up at me with blood spewing out of you mouth , will it really matter how much wieght i had on what foot or what position my tan sau was in ??? ''
i don't nor do i care to see every motion as this or that style or in what part of what form , those that look for validation in a form don't really fight they just talk about it. i see timing ,balance,sensitivity,adjustability,speed,and power.
what ever i find to improve those skills i will try . i will not allow myself to be trapped by a doctrine. if it's called flying big toe kung fu i don't care as long as it gives me a way to progress. if you need the security blanket of a label and a bounch of groupeis to be part of the yes man club then that's great . but please don't include , or limit me to that small frame of thought.
might as well add me to your ignore list cuz i live in the real world, not the safty of wing chun class.

[namron]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Seems like a very general statement, but it is so very significant, especially when dealing with multiple fighters. That's why moving around too much is not good.

The notion of "natural stance" is fibre with no water.

Whip do you practice acting from a stationary stance when dealing with multiple opponents on a first in first served basis?

Otherwise do you use footwork to interpose opponents and 'hopefully' only have to deal with one at a time and not get surrounded?

Just interested in tactics...

[yuanfen]

While awiting ETW's possible reply-

"Stationary" stance? A stance should always be "alive" IMO
FWIW.

[EnterTheWhip]

I yuanfen beat me to the "stationary" concept. He's absolutely right. Not stationary.

To answer your question... in a multiple opponent situation, you still move, but how much? With the typical "natural stance" as it is commonly understood, you're asking for it. The way multiple opponent defenses are demonstrated these days is BS.

Of course, you deal with one person at a time making sure that you're not surrounded. But the main thing is stance and the solidity of it.

(I'm half asleep right now, so this may be a pretty lame explanation.)

[EnterTheWhip]

You continue to dig yourself that JKD hole.

Of course, you can do whatever you like with what you learn. BUT, let's call things as they are. What you talk about is JKD concepts, not Wing Chun. I'm sure you'd like to think that what you're doing is Wing Chun. I can guarantee, it is not. It's not even kung fu.

[Ernie]

dig my self in the jkd hole that's funny,
you sound like the one that pigeon holed .
to each there own,
be happy ,by the shirt join the club get the tatto
learn the secret hand shake and all that.
god for bid you get in a real fight. ha ha.
experience is experience i will share mine and just keep talking about other peoples.

[Alpha Dog]

Ernie, why so touchy? I thought everything you said was bang-on until you started describing what does seem to be a JKD style and not WC. If that is what you like to do, fine. But ETW is right to point out you're not really representing WC principles, are you?

WC (in fact, all MA) Sifus should start teaching their students a simple sentence, maybe they could say it when they bow in: "Mei Guan Xi" ("no relation," meaning 'never mind', 'that's okay', 'don't worry about it'). Saying that a few times a day for a year or so might help to take care of the glass heart syndrome that seems so prevalent among martial artists (or at least many that visit these boards).

[Ernie]

alpha dog
not touchy just honest about what i do and what i see, so sorry if i came off that way.
as fpr wing chun i have put years of pain and blood into developing the skill and i have tested it everychance i had training with people of all walks of life and many that i had no business standing in front of.
when you do this you sart to get a deeper understand of wing chun , way beyond tan ,bong ,and fook,
you start to see why these idea's came to be . when i took the approch of some of my jkd friens it was to further investigate my wing chun. these guys were grat street fighters and not inhibited by style or form.
this untrigued me , there training approach allowed them to freely work out with anyone from any style and they were much better for it.
they understood the mentallity of a street fight and were not afraid to visit those dark places in there own minds and emotions.
and most of they knew how to train skill , functional skill , so i placed my self in there work outs and often still do.
and that's when isee wing chun therory at it's finest , i see why things work better then others some times you learn more about what you are doing when your on the out side looking in.
i found that though wing chun had planted seeds to answer my questions , it didn't give me the experience out side of class to understand and ask the right questions .
so i share these experiences and observations, and when i meet other fighters i pick there brains as well to learn from what they have gone through.
so the forms and the dummy and the pole and the knives and countless hours of chi sau.
to me are just the begining and baby steps to understand and apply the skill and theory.
but above it all is my individual experience . how i win and how i lose and what i take home from it.
every time you get infront of a person with gloves or from another style for a training session you are following the core idea of jkd '' to experience'' and the same reason the old wing chun guys had there biemos to test skill.
you have to leave the nest if you wish to learn to fly.

[namron]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
I yuanfen beat me to the "stationary" concept. He's absolutely right. Not stationary.

To answer your question... in a multiple opponent situation, you still move, but how much? With the typical "natural stance" as it is commonly understood, you're asking for it. The way multiple opponent defenses are demonstrated these days is BS.

Of course, you deal with one person at a time making sure that you're not surrounded. But the main thing is stance and the solidity of it.

(I'm half asleep right now, so this may be a pretty lame explanation.)

Thanks whip.

Pretty much my line of thinking.

In multiple attacker scenarios i think directness is the key, i will try to use the human shield aspect where possible and sweep/shove opponents into the line of each other as well though.

I think in the real scenario however it will still come down to belting the first one in with everything you got.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by namron
I think in the real scenario however it will still come down to belting the first one in with everything you got.
Tying into the human shield concept, make your first opponent your shielding dummy for as long as possible. You're chi sau needs to be really good to be able to do this.

[fa_jing]

LOL @ EnterTheWhip and Alpha Dog carrying on a conversation with himself.

:D

[Alpha Dog]

FA FUNG de FA, SHEN JING de JING

Ni fa shen jing! LOL

[yuanfen]

Tai naki? Onek rokom bhasa prithivi-te ache.
Sob jana osombhob!!

[TjD]

Originally posted by Ernie
a stance should never be seen just felt
stay natural
once you assume a posture ''traditional'' you just gave the other guy way to much information about yourself and a way to defeat you.

to answer the question, chances are i'd be in some form of the YGKYM.

at one of my younger kung fu brothers wedding (younger in the time he's been at our school, not age), he's at the altar getting married and his feet turn in and he's standing in the YGKYM :D luckily only the people from our school who were there noticed :D

THAT is natural. most of serious WC people in my school are the same way, when we stand around its usually in some variation of a WC stance or another.

as to giving away information. if its some street fight chances are the chump whose jumping you has no clue what WC is. if he's well trained enough to know you're probably in a ring, and he'll know what you've trained in anyhow.

[KenWingJitsu]

Still amazing to me. Everything must be 'wing chun perfect' or its not wing chun.

LOL. Hope you are in god Wing chun posture when you get KTFO so you can please the wing chun gods....

Ernie, you are correct. Do what needss to be done to win.

[Ernie]

travis
no disrespect by my next statement just how i see it'
if you are standing around in your wing chun stance on the regular you are trapped by the form , the stances teaches you how to feel the ground sink your wieght and the feeling of relaxed stability. but once you have this feeling then you no longer need to visually apply it it is in your mind part of your combative spirit . you don't walk around town step in a wing chun fashion that would look silly and tell the world '' hey look at me''
if you take oppertunities to steal a little time to train the idea of your stance then that is different .
but when you spend a lot of time sparring different people from different systems you get this ability to read there posture , there wieght distribution , and you learn that certian postures are good fro certian motions but not good for others , this give you the strentghs and weekness of a person position.
that's what i mean by giving away to much.
here is a funny story that happened to me but please don't think that i am referring to you or yours by telling it.
about a year aogo a person showed up to join my wing chun class now he told me he had 12 years experience and had a few different systems under his belt. i was impressed as i love to learn from people's experience so i was excited about talking to him . my sifu asked me to check out his forms and chi sau with him not a battle just a few drills . as we drilled the subject of fighting other arts came up and i was listening intently but then he said something that bothered me .
he said i have found that nothing can get past my wing chun stance '' this would be the traditinal slt toes in stance ''.
i asked you mean you really fight out of that stance i just thought of it as a training stance . he very insitanly said no way nothing can get through my stance . now if you haven't picked it up allready from my post your going to have to prove it to me . so asked him if he ever fought a good boxer or savate man . and he amazed me by the answer .
he said he was a amature boxer brfore his wing chun training and that savate was for french whimps .
no i am not french but i have learned some street savate and have been knocked out by french whimps .
so i asked him if i could attack him useing only my feet and savate kicks . he said very proudly go ahead but don't blame me if i hurt you. now my teacher wouldn't allow me to do this so ididn't even ask instead we walked over were we couldn't be seen.
he assumed his stance . and i told him i am going to use my lead leg . i shuffled in faked a high line and toe kicked him in the calf muscle he took one step forward and collapsed as his calf cramped up .
after a few minute he was visibly upset and asked for me to attack again
this time i knew he was expecting a low line shot so i hip faked low and turned a flip toe kick into his solar plex and he dropped like a bag a rice .
after i felt really bad as i never like to take advantage of people i sloed down and we worked on condition responses from his posture . but i learned a lesson from that experience . it could have easily gone hte other way and it could have been me on the floor . and i would have learned from that as well .
he told me he had never seen that type of kick except in magazines and had no idea it was so fast and could hurt so much, we both grew from the situation.
know i'm not implying anything just shareing a story.

ken , thanks for the thumbs up.

[KenWingJitsu]

No problem Ernie. And good story. And whether they would like to admit it or not, that story of your plays out very often with "wing chunners" who "think" they can fight till reality hits them in the head (or the calf, or solar plexus lol).

[Ernie]

i will be the first to admit it,
i've been knocked out ,tapped out , dropped , thai kicked to to the head , over hand right or left to the face , thigh kicked by the toe and the shin , eye jabbed and groin kicked , all for the name of wing chun.
and i'm sure there is a lot more to come.....
the only thing is now i train smarter and with a goal .

[PaulH]

What? KWJ and Ernie! You have offended my WC temple and my clan's honor, I challenge you to a mental forum combat. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

[Ernie]

i bow down to the power of your supreme pak sau.
i repent 30 slt , for forgiveness

[PaulH]

On a more serious note, I appreciate your sincere and rare attempts to bring a needed sense of reality to our beautiful WC dreamland world. There must be a balance in theory and practice. For me, If the pain hurts, then I will feel the truth the hard way.

Regards,

[Ernie]

truth is relative to the individaul and the circumstances he faces .and that can change at any given time . at learst pain is universal :)

[byond1]

hi guys,,,

ernie....when you say.(paraphrased a tad)..."tested it with training with people from all walks of life.. "....training is not testing anything......training is preparing for the real deal...puts you in optamel condition...but that is all.....combat is the only true test of a warriors metal.
i have been in numerous fights over the years...being from detroit , had many oppurtunities to test my wck in life preserving situations.....as i have done in ohio very recently..in the riots....since i internalized the wck system....i have been fortunate to have not met defeat (since learning/internalizing).....
wck teachs very specific principles for structure and energy and motion. if you do not follow the guide lines set out by the system....you are not doing wck. yuen kay san, koolo, cho family, leung sheung and some of the early yip man students....lay out the parameters....that have been passed down by our ansestors....if you violate this....you are doing something else. perhaps jkd......
the problem with jkd is they use wck training ideas...but do so incorrectly...ohhh how can i say this?? well the drills we use are for training very specific things with very specifc structure....and if you dont train these specifics things in a specific way with the rest of the system supporting and building upon it self...you are training something incorrectly.......and therefor train things that are not necsisarily good...., bad posiition,,incorrect energy, bad timing ect.......i have alot of experiance with jkd...as many of my training partners are from jkd school of thought.....and the wck concepts are *******ized......bruce lee is no longer with us...and cant quality control whats hapening......he would go nuts if he saw how people have made jkd another marketed m.a school.......haphazard orgainized drills that no one understands is hardly liberating.......
wck forms teach principles of proper body structure for receaving and generating energy/proper paths. principles on proper positioning.....principles on bridging the gap....principles of saving one self from bad situations..principles of economy/directness of motion..the principles can be used according to ones imagination. within a context...the forms...are conceptual...not literal.....anyone caught up in the form....is a lost sheep....not a warrior
b
and yes wck principles translate into the grappling range...we also have kum na..thorws, locks, breaks, take downs,e ct...there is no limit....i can use my wck principles and grapple against a faily seasoned grappler....i dont play his game though,,,,i play the wck game and have tested this.......

[byond1]

heh one more thing....anyone who trains one way...but expects to apply it differantly is up for bloody noses and beatings......you train the way you fight.....its common sence!! the body and muscles have memory....and will remember what you train.....that is how you will respond....so that is why its important to truly understand the drills you ar using and have the proper structure to supprort it......
here is a story for you,,,,,this jkd guy who excels in grappling tells me...grappling is the best m.a...and wck guy would easly be defeated, in general, by a grappler.....so i suggest we have a go...no holding back....well he shot in to scoop my legs (he high school wrestled, sambo, pan kat silat,boxing, kick boxing, jkd hodge pdge)......well the poor chap fell uncounsious....after i jamed his shoulder/center of gravity with a on sao....and kup jarned him in the jade pillow.....i had to call the paramedics...he was fine....he simply sent into shock......but i was extremly worried for both of us...but the moral of the story is....bring it!

[Ernie]

byond1


first and for most than you for sharing your experience and back ground, i really respect that most for some reason lack that honesty.
testing , for me is the nearest way to simulate the stress of a fight with out have my life on the line , this being said the key word is nearest .
no one will ever know when , were , or with who a street fight can happen ,
this we can not control . but we can simulate the stress that our bodies and minds go through . an example though crude it boot camp in the military, they break you down . over load you and try to teach you to preform under this situation.
i see training the same way it would not be condusive to get into 100 street fights to gain experience . beyond the you might get killed ,maimed thrown in jail aspect . you never know what type of person you might face , a bum or a serial killer, so there is no real way to judge your skill. except you made it home that day.
when i train with these different people i understand this and look more towards skill development and facing guys that are bigger faster stronger , so that i may gain experience , i also like to approach it progressivly not all out this is for me just a battle of ego's and maybe a good work out . but real skill was not gained .
for example how to read and judge distance and timing , how to interrupt my flow if things take a unexpected turn.
i guess you can also argue that judging and refining my reactions against skilled people from diffeerent styles is also not a true test as the have good timing speed power and joe blow in the street will be uncrispy and have a broken rythem.
but i feel the same way about just training with wing chun people and wing chun people simulating attacks it's better then nothing but not the same.
training is not testing anything......training is preparing for the real deal...puts you in optamel condition...but that is all.....combat is the only true test of a warriors metal.
i agree training will do it's best to prepare you , but in a street fight even the best prepared may not have the mind heart ,pain tolerance ,or luck to survive .
these are the ''x'' factors . all we can do is expose ourselves to the most wide range of experiences posibble . in scientific way that allows us to progress.
you have been blessed or cursed in your experiences to have found your truth . very few have that happen to them.
but that can also be said for any one from any style you will find someone that has survived adverse conditions , that is know way to measure the system but it does say alot about the man , perhaps you were just born a warrior , that might be your individual nature .
wck teachs very specific principles for structure and energy and motion. if you do not follow the guide lines set out by the system....you are not doing wck. yuen kay san, koolo, cho family, leung sheung and some of the early yip man students....lay out the parameters....that have been passed down by our ansestors....if you violate this....you are doing something else.
please clairify what these foundations are to you as it seems most have different views.wck forms teach principles of proper body structure for receaving and generating energy/proper paths. principles on proper positioning.....principles on bridging the gap....principles of saving one self from bad situations..principles of economy/directness of motion..the principles can be used according to ones imagination. within a context...the forms...are conceptual...not literal.....anyone caught up in the form....is a lost sheep....not a warrior
i completly and hole heartedly agree with you but we must all find our own path to understand these concepts and apply them just to say them and memorize them is not enough we must be able to adapt them to our individual experiences .
i am happy that you have internalized them and can express them , and i wish i could take a magic pill and do the same but all i can do is continue to gain experience to the best of my potential and be honest with my goals and achievments . thank you for your reply

[marcelino31]

Good points, Brian...

I agree that you should not fight a grappler with the grappler's game. -- It is important though to study anti-grappling!

Even if you fall to the ground by some slip or twist of fate you can still fight your fight using WC principles. The idea of having to study BJJ or other grappling systems as an ancillary add on to WC is silly. Many people who criticize WC and seek to learn other systems do so out of frustration and mostly because they have not learnt WC properly. A lot of the younger people are caught up so much in the sparring frenzy that they develop bad habits.. Once muscle memory is ingrained the wrong way its very hard to reverse it.. thats also why i believe that learning an art like WC is best done if you already don't know any martial art...that way you pick it up first hand..The problem with mixing arts is that some arts just don't mix well conceptually. As Brian said you must first internalize the system and not just rely on learning set drills and applications without really understanding the theoritical basis behind the movements.

[Ernie]

byond 1,
it just dawned on me as I was thinking about your grappler story. it points to what I'm talking about . this grappler ''obviously not the brightest tool in the shed '' if he was so arrogant as to suggest a superior style and then try and prove it .
well he chose to test you , since you already knew he was a grappler and what type of attack he was going to bring you had the upper hand , you had experience and understanding of what your opponent might bring .
when you work off other systems and types of people you gain this experience , this preliminary analysis . it also de mystify the other persons style as you seen it and felt it before .
I never said become a grappler or boxer or Thai fighter or even a jkd. but I do think one if the have the opportunity should work off these people to gain experience.
wing chun theory does give you all the base ideas to deal with these situations but theories must be applied and internalized .
but as far as sparring and building bad habits , don't be disturbed by what the other person does just work on your game plan. but be specific work entry or interception or termination tools . this way you can build your calm mind and relaxed timing. and you can instantly apply that structure and power you work so hard on.
as for jkd , silat kali . bjj and all that i don't really get caught up on names , i have to use them as a refernce point but as you can see it's all different from everyones point of view i have met terrible wing chun,boxer,jkd and so on. and i have also ran across individuals from the same systems that can eat me up and spit me out .
i just ask myself if i am lucky enough to meet a cool open minded martial artist or boxer what can i learn from this person. or can i help this person learn something . no need for secrets anymore there's guns out there which nulifies any man or art . all research for me.
thanks again for your post very thought provokeing

[yenhoi]

"Wing Chun" is all theory and training methods, "Wing Chun" doesnt fight, WCK principles dont fight, and WCK techniques dont fight, only people, individuals fight and bleed.

If you train the way you fight, how does that explain standing in one place doing some random ass form?

You cant DO wing chun, you can only train it.

:eek:

[kj]

Good distinction, yenhoi.
- kj

[byond1]

yenhoi--thanks for stating the obvious...of cource principles cant fight....they give yu a context to fight with...ya know...structure??

wing chun doesnt fight??? well , lets leave history out of this...that cant be proven

"individuals fight and bleed"....only if you have blood

"if you train the way you fight, how does this explain standing in one place??"
are you so limited in your understanind of the wck sytem you need me to explain this to you?? ask your sifu...you pay him, not me! you see a tree and think its the forest!
ever hear of bai jong? stillness beats motion..ect..

[yenhoi]

buzzwords. I know my sifu's answers, I was asking you. You posted - train the way you fight - not my sifu.

they give yu a context to fight with

how? What context?

ever hear of bai jong? stillness beats motion..ect..

:rolleyes:

are you so limited in your understanind of the wck sytem

yes.

Wing Chun does not exist.

:eek: