Hu Hui-Chien's Weng Chun and Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun ?

[FIRE HAWK]

How are Hu Hui-Chien's Weng Chun and Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Related ?

[Rolling_Hand]

Fire Hawk,

What is Hu Hui-Chien's Weng Chun?

Roger

[FIRE HAWK]

Although Jee Shim and Ng Mui are considered to be fable and not real maybe Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun has both Chi Sim Weng Chun and Ng Mui Wing Chun in it maybe this is how it is related to these arts a combination of Chi Sim Weng Chun elements and Ng Mui forms and things like that Hung Fa Yi would have got the forms Sui Lien Tao ,Sui Nim Tao , Chum Kui , Bill Jee , from Ng Mui Wing Chun and other elements from Chi Sim Weng Chun . And who is this Hu Hui-Chien and his Weng Chun he has Fa Kuen in his Weng Chun so does Chi Sim Weng Chun could Hu Hui-Chien be related to Fujian Wing Chun that is talked about in the book Complete Wing Chun ?

[Rolling_Hand]

Fire Hawk,

You must be the Hu Hui-Chien Weng Chun Champion.

Can you share with us about your Chi Sim experience with GM Hoffman at the VTM?

How do you compare the Chi Sim Fa Kuen to Hu Hui-Chien Fa Kuen?

Roger

[FIRE HAWK]

Grandmaster Hoffmann showed me his forms from Chi Sim Weng Chun Fa Kuen, Jong kuen dummy boxing i think there where 2 forms that he showed me of Jong Kuen , he showed me his chi kung form , and I think Sam Pai Fut i cant remember about the Sam Pai Fut Form , and he did Qi Na on me every move I would make with my arms or legs he would counter with Qi Na I really could feel the pressure in my arms and my leg when he did the Qi Na he could have broken any of my limbs if he wanted to ,he also did the Eight form single hit or Baat Sik Danda with his student . Grandmaster hoffmann has great form and knows his Chi Sim Art very well if you have not seen him in person you really should he is very good at his art the people who went to the simenar could tell you more than I could because they seen alot more than what I got to see . As far as Hu Hui-Chien and his Weng Chun I dont know anything about him Hendrik Santo s is the person who knows about him so I was wondering what the story is with Hu Hui-Chien and his weng Chun .

[Rolling_Hand]

As far as Hu Hui-Chien and his Weng Chun I dont know anything about him Hendrik Santo s is the person who knows about him so I was wondering what the story is with Hu Hui-Chien and his weng Chun >>FireHawk

----------------------------------------

Fire Hawk,

Have you seen any Chum Kiu or Biu Ji on the Cho's wing chun videos?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by FIRE HAWK
As far as Hu Hui-Chien and his Weng Chun I dont know anything about him Hendrik Santo s is the person who knows about him so I was wondering what the story is with Hu Hui-Chien and his weng Chun .

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sorry, the computer can read chinese :D



Hu Hui-Chien or the kungfu brother of Hung Xi-Kuan (Hung Gar ancestors) is popular.
Anyone watching the Shaws' brother Shao Lin kung Fu movies will know him.

Now, in the Legend, Hu learn kungfu from Jee Shim and practice his art in the WENG CHUN TONG or EVER LASTING HALL of the Southern SHAOLIN. And his set is Fa Kuen which has component such as Fut Cheong..... Peng Kuen..... and Set such as Jong Kuen..
It is not a secret at all. It is some researchers are sleeping..:D

IN the Red Jung, this type of Weng Chun or the Hui Hui-Chien Weng Chun could be exist. But that is different to Wing Chun.
As for How Weng Chun people do SLT.... Well, some people might learn that in the Red Boat from the WCK actors. IMHO.

On the other hand, say people original study Northern Tai Tzu, then study some TaiJi. CAn this group of people using the The Northern Tai Tzu ancestors family tree to claim they are the olderst TaiJi because the Northern Tai Tzu link to the emperor of Sung dynasty? IN reality they don't understand taiji since thier root is Tai tzu.

also CAn some people who has no clue about what is the 13 postures keep claiming the olderst Taiji has 108 postures form.....? and keep asking have you see Chang San feng doing 108 postures set?
:D

[desertwingchun2]

Firehawk asks .....

"How are ... Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Related ?"

I don't have an abundance of experience with Chi Sim Weng Chun but I would like to share what I know. If you asked this question to me, and I had only seen the motions of each system I would say they weren't. However, looking past form there are many similarities. So much so that I would say they are like cousins.

The visual difference is in form. Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun forms are SLT, CK, BJ. Chi Sim Weng Chun plays different forms, as you witnessed. I enjoyed playing the Fa Kuen form with Master Hoffman when he was here. HFYWC and other Wing Chun families don't have this form.

The similarities can be found in history, training methodologies, principles, concepts, philosophies, etc... CSWC and HFYWC both trace their lineage back to the Weng Chun Tong within the Southern Shaolin Temple. Each system has double knife, pole and wooden man sets. Both systems utilize gate and line concepts.

That could all be coincidence but the link that seals the deal is Kiu Sao. As far as I know CSWC doesn't differentiate between the terms Kiu Sao and Chi Sao. If you have seen CSWC Kiu Sao/Chi Sao you know its different than what most think of as chi sao. In HFYWC we train and recognize both Kiu Sao and Chi Sao. That along with other family traits link us to our cousin and our Wing Chun Kuen brothers.

Chi Sim Weng Chun - Fa Kuen, Saam Bai Faat, others ...

Wing Chun Kuen - Siu Lin Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee

How Choy Li Fut people do SLT? "Well, some people might learn that in the Red Boat from the WCK actors. IMHO." :D

-David

[Rolling_Hand]

Hendrik,

Since it seems polite, reasonable requests for you to keep this thread pure between Fire Hawk and RH (it is about Cho's Chum Kiu and Bui Ji, not Weng Chun or anything else) have failed, I must unfortunately now place you on ignore. alongside unmissed and soon-to-be-forgotten trolls like Grendel, John weiland.

Please feel free you go your way. I won't be able to see further postings here.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Hendrik,

Since it seems polite, reasonable requests for you to keep this thread pure between Fire Hawk and RH (it is about Cho's Chum Kiu and Bui Ji, not Weng Chun or anything else) have failed, I must unfortunately now place you on ignore. alongside unmissed and soon-to-be-forgotten trolls like Grendel, John weiland.

Please feel free you go your way. I won't be able to see further postings here.


Certainly. the blind will never see right?

where is your factual evidents... lol
anyone wants the writing about the Hu Hui-Chien Weng Chun Kuen? :D
decode the chinese writing on the top and one will see a small part....

another question : how do the actor who play cocumbine post or bai Jong? very feminin not like the solder of Qing or monk right?

[Phenix]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by desertwingchun2
Firehawk asks .....

[B]"How are ... Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Related ?"

I don't have an abundance of experience with Chi Sim Weng Chun but I would like to share what I know. If you asked this question to me, and I had only seen the motions of each system I would say they weren't. However, looking past form there are many similarities. So much so that I would say they are like cousins. "--- d

You represent HFY, is that corrent?



"How Choy Li Fut people do SLT? "Well, some people might learn that in the Red Boat from the WCK actors. IMHO." :D "---- d


different people has different taste.

the different is some keep thier CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Kar..... seperate in an honest way.

But, some call coffee and water down tea mix the original tea.

:D

[Geezer]

Firehawk Wrote>

How are Hu Hui-Chien's Weng Chun and Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Related ?

I actually believe and came out with my thoughts on this on the WCML some time ago.
IMHO, I believe that Chi Sim Weng Chun, Hung Gar and Hung Fa Yi are actually all very closely related, allot closer than some think.

Sheldon

[reneritchie]

The relationship would be, if based on all oral transmissions/legends, would be one of kin-ship traced back to the Weng Chun Tong of Nam Siu Lam Jee.

Jee Shim taught Hu and Hung in the Weng Chun Tong, and they went off to found Weng Chun and Hung Ga respectively. HFY came from the same place, and later Jee Shim left and taught directly to the Red Junk, which became known Jee Shim (Chi Sim) Weng Chun Kuen.

If you're interested in a comparison based only on verifiable history, it would be a much longer, and perhaps very difficult discussion if performed ethically and honestly.

[taltos]

Originally posted by Phenix (to desertwingchun2)
You represent HFY, is that corrent?

No. He represents himself and his understanding of HFYWC, just like Savi and I. Just like almost everyone here does with their respective WC experiences.

This assumption is what creates a lot of confusion. When each person speaks for themselves, but the listener decides they are speaking for everyone, then two different experiences suddenly become two conflicting statements.

It has been said many times by many people that posts here reflect only the poster, and their understanding. Everyone seemed to indicate that they understood that, but perhaps I was wrong.

So to baseline the discussion again, before anyone gets confused or makes assumptions, WE ARE ALL ONLY SPEAKING FOR OURSELVES.

FWIW, my experience has been very similar to David's. In terms of choreography there seems to be little similarity, but in terms of theory and underlying concepts, there seems to be little differences. The variance manifests mainly in the application of the concepts. The vocabulary, the methodology, the learning progressions - they are all strikingly similar.

Ditto on CSWC Kiuh Sau. That more than anything showed me first hand a deeper connection that I would have though previously.

-Levi

-Levi

[reneritchie]

Levi,

Have you has a chance to train/share/exchange with any of the systems typically referred to as "Southern Shaolin" (Hung, Lao, Lee, Mok, Choy, or the Nam Tong Long, Lung Ying, Bak Hok, Bak Mei, etc.) and if so, were your experiences similar?

[taltos]

I studied Lohan Kung Fu before I started Wing Chun, and while doing that I was able to spend a lot of time around Southern Mantis and White Crane (Sifus who were friends of my first instructor). I admittedly did not study them as in depth as I have the other families of Wing Chun, and I had no Wing Chun background at the time for comparison, but from what I remember there was definate overlap (as with all martial endeavors stemming from the same cultural foundation), but I didn't see the extreme similarities that CSWC and HFYWC share. I would go a step further than David did and say that, as an anology, Mantis and Crane were cousins to the WC I have seen, while the WC are more like brothers. I could definately see a connection in basic operational concepts, but WC seemed so much more refined. Exactly as if it were a Southern Animal Style, but the animal was the Human Animal.

-Levi

[reneritchie]

Thanks Levi!

I often feel if people are looking for difference, they will find it, and if they're looking for similarity, they will find that to, whether it be between neighbors, factions, or friends.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix


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sorry, the computer can read chinese :D


the paragraph can be found here, or see attached
http://www.wushulibrary.com/

[reneritchie]

Do Tse, Lee Sin-Sang!

I think I have a book with something very similar in, also similar paragraphs on WCK and WC Bak Hok K.

[yylee]

Ng Sai Hak Hay, Ritchie Sin-Sang!

[FIRE HAWK]

So what does the article say it is still in Chinese could somebody translate the article to english ?

[dfl]

Originally posted by yylee


the paragraph can be found here, or see attached
http://www.wushulibrary.com/

I have never read of Weng Chun Tong, only Weng Chun Din (there is a difference), as in the quoted article.

Wasn't Wu Wai Kin the guy who, instead of overcoming the perils in the wooden dummy alley, crawled out of the dog hole? He was also killed in short order after beating up the machinists? He left a son who studied with Hung Hay Gwoon though. So how did his Weng Chun get passed down? By Fong Sai Yuk?

I much prefer the 14 leaders of the Hung Fa Wui. They have much more interesting kung fu. "Chin Sau Yu Loi" (talk about chan!) Chiu Poon San had a great explanation for the chaotic rings.

[reneritchie]

Dan,

You know, that never occured to me, but you're currect! It *is* Wing Chun Dien in all the Chinese material I have, and there *is* a difference! Thanks for the much needed slap upside the head.

I believe it is the same Wu, but obviously a very different legendary take on him ;)

[Phenix]

Dan,


well, how can you expect shao lin is better then Qing?
Even Jee sim was killed by White Eye brows from WuDang. So there is no secret martial art.:D

[dfl]

Well, in the book "Man Nien Ching" where all is revealed, the so called Shaolin were nothing more than rabble trouble makers, and deserved their fate.

[Chango]

Hello Rene,
If I could jump in here I would like to say that I have now extensive training in Chi Sim and HFY and as a teen I did some Hung ga. I find that all share a very simular approach to kiu sau. It seemed the hung ga did have more of a hard or external nature. If you experience the energy training of each of these systems you will find a very comon theme. Of course each does have thier own idenities. I have also had plenty of experience and extensive conversations with Dragon system and Southern praying mantis practitioners during my days of Chi sau competitions. I find that when I compair the approaches of kiu sau it has been my experience that these three share very simular approaches when dealing with energy. As a matter of fact I find Chi Sim and HFY extremely close in terms of references to space and energy! Maybe one day in the future you can pay us at the Visit to cross reference these things? I have to say with my mere 151 post in the last year and half or so. It is clear I'm very much a hands on type of person. words cannot express kung fu it has to be experienced. No matter how much others deny WCK's shaolin roots. It cannot be disputed that words will always fall short of actual experiences. "upon seeing the flower the student smiled" Maybe some would like to expand on this! I'm sorry I do not have the time.


Chango (saat geng sau)

[reneritchie]

Hey Dan,

Yes, Man Nien Ching does not make Shaolin look very good.

Chango,

Thanks for sharing! I've often read it written that most TCMA are the same and the only things that differentiates them are are the Ging and the footwork. Has this been your experience?

And thanks for the invite, but wouldn't it be better to skip the middleman and just hook up with Gee sifu or Hoffmann sifu directly?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hey Dan,

Yes, Man Nien Ching does not make Shaolin look very good.




Certainly, that is very true. The strange things are most of the Shao Lin myth based on this Man Nien Ching. IMHO, westerner might want to read this book and figure out for oneself.

On the other hand, certainly the technics of Hung Gar related Kiu sau technics
are different compare with the Emei 12 Zhuang based DNA... which are: Sustain pressing, stick touch to listern, Hooking to stantion, covering to .... lots of kuit....

Two different core..certainly one cannot use the Hung gar related Kiu method to replace the 12 zhuang type of DNA.

It is perfectly great that If Chisim WCK, Hung Fa Ye WCK, Hung Gar find their ancestors and root art. Trace it to the root which is different to Wing Chun Kuen of the opera.

From cross martial art history and method we can find the factual evidents and the truth. And that is not too far away from the data we have today.


By the way, Siu Niem Tau is a modern naming of Yip Man as I have heard. Is that correct? since I have never see the term Siu Niem Tau in my family writing and the naming of Siu Niem Tau does not seems to support old chinese or clasical writing.