2 Annual All BaGuaZhang Tournament

[maoshan]

Peace

For all interested, The "2nd annual all BaGuaZhang Tournament"
Will happen the September 27, 03.

For further info and Registration form, goto:

http://maoshan.topcities.com/ChengTingHua/All_BaGua.html

Or contact: B.C. Hill Bey at maoshan@lycos.com

See ya there.

Peace

Maoshan

[maoshan]

Peace

There are updates for the Pushands division.

Peace

Maoshan

[GeneChing]

Hopefully, we'll have the interactive portion of theCalender (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/news/index.php?month=09&year=2003) back online soon but until now, events can just email me with the info at Gene@KungfuMagazine.com. Extra points for those who submit their requests in our calendar format.

[maoshan]

Thank you


Peace

Maoshan

[Water Dragon]

'Sup Joe?
Now that this thing has a precedant, I'm curious as to what you guys are gonna change this year, what stays the same, etc.

In other words, now that you've seen this happen before, are there any rule changes going on, anything that happened you didn't foresee in year 1, etc.

Good luck on the tourney this year. I hope it grows.

[Stacey]

where is it? What state? I see on the forum, but the website isn't specific in the tourney directions.

BTW i think its great you wear street clothes on your web site. Too many people try to dress like ancient chinese and it looks stupid.

From what I've seen the chinese wear track suits. Now if you had a fubu track suit, that would be even better. Imagine getting a school uniform like that instead of a gi.

are you B.C Bey? Can a white guy become a Brother of Wu Dang? I only see black guys on your site, so I was curious.

[maoshan]

Peace Water Dragon

For the most part everything will remain the same except in the continuous and PushHands
Divisions. In the Continuous last year, my goal was to have traditional fighting so that more of Ba-Gua’s unique approach to applications could be showcased, but what I found was that most of the competitors had not learned this way. So the judges and I decided to allow them to fight in the modern style but with Ba-Gua principles. Also the fighting began with opponents touching at the wrist holding the Classical Guard posture, circling once, then began.
“Touch at the wrist” will not be present this year nor will the stipulation of having to fight traditionally be there.

Only one small change has occurred with the PushHands.
Last year, opponents began by touching the wrist, circling once and attack.
This year, it’s Double Rolling hands, same rules.
We give an example on this link:

http://maoshan.topcities.com/ChengTingHua/pushhandsupdate.html

Thanks for your support.

Stacy

I don’t know how to take you.
The links provide everything. All the info is there. I even provided a GeoMap to make it even easier.

(Are you B.C Bey?

My name is B.C. Hill Bey,

Can a white guy become a Brother of Wu Dang? I only see black guys on your site, so I was curious.)

What do you mean by that? So what you only see blackguys on the site, what does that mean? Besides us there is no other minority site dedicated to the Internal to my knowledge. We’re not complaining about the fact that most of the sites dedicated to the Internal have only white guys pictured on their sites.
We’re from the ghetto, we teach in the ghetto. A lot of Europeans don’t live in the Hood.
Also, most won’t come to the hood. We don’t discriminate against anyone….
Actually, I take that back we do. We’re an Elitist Club and we have a standard that must be met or your nothing. It’s about warriors, not color. I don’t care what you look like as long as you train. All of the people that you see on that site have gone through the fire.
Hour’s daily, 8-6hr classes Sat-Sun over a course of years.
If you can handle the work, come on Down, I see your in NJ, Check out my classmate BlackTaoist,

You said you’re curious, is this an underhanded attack of some kind? If I’m wrong please forgive me, if not, just come to the Tournament.




Peace

Maoshan

[Water Dragon]

Good deal Maoshan. Maybe one day you can open it up to different disciplines, but it's a good thing you're doing no matter how you do it.

The best thing to do with Stacy is just put him on ignore. He likes to instigate.

[Pawa-eri-to]

I don't think the idea of a black only martial arts group is that unreasonable. I wouldn't come down too hard on anyone for what could be a missunderstanding. I actually have been wondering about your group myself. I'm 17 and have been doing internal martial arts for about 4 years. I was wondering if you guys would have any problem with me stopping in if I'm ever in the area? I can't see any time in the future I would be on the East coast (I'm up in seattle,) but you guys seem like really strong fighters and if I ever had the chance could I stop in during one of your training sessions?
Brian F. Baron

[maoshan]

Peace

It seems that there’s a mis-conception about us.
Yes, it’s true that both of our organizations (Brothers Of Wu-Dang & The Ba-Gua Zhang Research & Boxing Association) are black owned and run, but that has nothing to do with whom we teach. Most of the teaching itself is done in urban areas and most of our students live in these areas so the fact that all you see on our sites is black guys should be no
Surprise. As I said before, it’s not a color thing but a Warrior thing.
Most people are intimidated by where we teach. To us it’s just simple proving grounds.
Who ever wants to come and join us feel free. Just know that we don’t play and that this is not a hobby for us. It’s like trying out for a team, all preliminaries must be passed before you can really enter the door, but the difference between this and a state given test is that There is no way you can cheat. There is no way you can fake it. Not to us.
We maintain a high standard and seek an even higher one.

Again, we don’t discriminate. It has been done to us but that’s not our way. There are Warriors across the races as well are there Cons, fakes and cowards. The “Elitist ONLY” pertains to warriors. All else can step. The preservation and promotion of true Ba-Gua requires those of stern stuff. As one of my motto’s “Ba-Gua is not for the faint of heart”.
There is a lot of BS Ba-Gua right now As well as the standard of Kungfu in the west in general is quite low and we’re doing all we can to better the situation.

One of those things is the All Ba-Gua Tournament. Ba-Gua is hard as hell to learn. This tournament provides a forum for practitioners to learn, exchange and gain experience which is the biggest problem practitioners have in terms of knowing how to apply their Art.
In the beginning most practitioners already had a fighting foundation in another style, all they had to do was apply Ba-Gua’s principles to their methods. It’s not like that anymore. Because of the standard today, Even if they have experience in another system, for the most part, their foundation is not that good and they don’t really have enough fighting experience. So for the most part, everybody starting Ba-Gua has to start from the very beginning.

Anyway, I digress.
Our doors are always open. Check us out.

Peace

B.C. Hill Bey aka Maoshan
Director:
Ba-Gua Zhang
Research & Boxing Association

[shaolinboxer]

You make it sound like a gang.

The quality of martial arts is not on a decline. It is simply expanding and adapting to the diverse needs of an open society.

Good luck with the tourney though. Sounds interesting.

[maoshan]

Peace

A Gang?
How do you come to that conclusion?
Selective and exclusive groups have existed almost as long as man.

(The quality of martial arts is not on a decline. It is simply expanding and adapting to the diverse needs of an open society)

I disagree with you. The fact alone that your life is not on the line anymore has decreased the intensity of training, one. Conmen and frauds mislead their students. Qi Has been mystified almost beyond fantasy. How can you say it’s not on a decline?
And if your referring to health most have been mislead with that also. The health is a side effect of which can only be achieved through full training. Not through simply waving your hands like clouds and dancing around.

You say adapting to the needs of an open society.
Martial Arts have always been for self-defense. How has this open society changed the need for proper practical self-defense?

I’m not following you guy, could you make this clear?

Peace
Maoshan

[GroungJing]

Gang?

Man thats racist.....

Sound like a bunch of stereotyped BS to me.

I’m form Detroit and a white guy, so I see and hear a lot of this mentality….. (from the white side)

A bunch of hard working, talented, intelligent CMA’s with guts enough to call the local crap that was posing as real gungfu junk, then having the abilty to back up their words…..and because they are non-white……they are a gang?

Huh?

What the #### is that!

Also, the crack by Stacey about Fubu workout cloths ....

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't find that funny either....

Maoshan, it appears you are not quick to anger, so I'll add well tempered and disciplined to the above.....

[Water Dragon]

Naw, I think Maoshan and BT are just political. And when someone is political by nature, that tends to seep into every part of their being; be it religion, work, art, music, and even martial arts. If that's the case, keep at it. It's a necesary thing you're doing for your people. Although I'm still dreaming of the day when there is no more need of those politics. Maybe our children will see that day, even if you and I don't. :)

[shaolinboxer]

I can say that the martial arts are not on a decline because I know so many good martial artists. Some are artistic, others intellectual, some are incredibly dangerous, and most are a mix.

I do not believe the intensity of training has necessarily decreased. We can acutally train harder now for several reasons. One is that techniques have been adapted to maintain their martial character while protecting the essential health of the practitioner. Two is that modern medicine has removed much of the fear of injury, allowing us to move away from forms if we wish and include more frequent open sparring. So things may actually balance out.

As society changes, so do our needs for self defense.

Essentially, I do not disagree with you regarding "conmen", but we may disagree as to who these conmen actually are.

Martial arts continues to be improved by being open, powerful, intense group and individual experience used to build the strength needed to live without violence in a violent world.

It should bring all of us together, regardless of the nature of our practice, not just some of us.

[count]

Good job Ben,
I see you have been working hard. I realize you are limited by state laws and insurance rules, but it would be nice if you could open up the back area and still protect the spine since it's such a distinctive characteristic in bagua fighting. Also, allow in some limited use of elbow strikes and throws if not the knees. I'm sure your tournament will be even better this year.

[maoshan]

Peace

Shaolinboxer:

I can say that the martial arts are not on a decline because I know so many good martial artists. Some are artistic, others intellectual, some are incredibly dangerous, and most are a mix.

Maoshan:
Really? What defines good to you? From my point of view:
Artistic Means: Forms. Question, can they apply it for real?
Intellectual Means: They read and theorize more than train which leads to (because of inadequate experience) passing on their substandard concepts to those that know no better and hold it up as being gospel.
Dangerous, is a matter of perception. Amongst non-martial artist this person can be dangerous. What about a peer?

This is not to say that the mix can’t exist but you say you know so many.
I know a lot of Martial Artist, but I know only few that are good which leads me back to the first question, What defines good? To you?

Shaolinboxer:
I do not believe the intensity of training has necessarily decreased.

Maoshan:
How can you say that? The average Class is at best 2x a week at 1-11/2hrs at a time. Most students put no more time into it than that. It’s hobby for most. In the past, it was a matter of life and death. Also, the teachers of the past stayed in a students behind to the point of abuse if the student didn’t put enough effort in the work entailed. Because if the student was crap they would lose face. And this is just one example.

Shaolinboxer:
We can acutally train harder now for several reasons. One is that techniques have been adapted to maintain their martial character while protecting the essential health of the practitioner

Maoshan:
What are you talking about? Who today trains as hard as the practitioners of the past? Besides anybody that really wants to learn doesn’t care about all that anyway. They just want to learn and will endure whatever to get that knowledge. And staying with this line of thought, In the Internal, the art is supposed to be tailored for the individual. In a lot of the external schools as well as Wushu and fake Internal teachers were found to be using methods that could lead to the detriment of the students health over time. But that has never happened to real teachers who learned their Art and taught/teach that way.

Shaolinboxer:
Two is that modern medicine has removed much of the fear of injury, allowing us to move away from forms if we wish and include more frequent open sparring. So things may actually balance out.

Maoshan:
Fear of injury? That’s the reason most people want to learn the Martial Arts, fear of being hurt by some aggressor. No offense, but you have some strange ideas concerning Martial Arts. What people feared getting hurt learning the Art? You learn to fight by fighting. You get better by getting hurt under controlled circumstances. Pain and the thought of pain along with experience is what raises your level of skill. Without this clear and present danger, all martial Arts would be nothing more than a dance and in fact it wouldn’t exist.
Now, What is the purpose of forms? It goes far beyond the simple catalogue of techniques strung together like pearls in a comprehensive manner.
In Ba-Gua in particular, forms train alignment in motion, moving with a root, stamina, speed, control and constant refinement through which is the only way to master the Art. Proper teaching leads to balance.

Shaolinboxer:
As society changes, so do our needs for self defense.

Maoshan:
What does this mean?
A physical attack is a physical attack. In the history of man, how has this changed? And how could it change?

Shaolinboxer:
Martial arts continues to be improved by being open, powerful, intense group and individual experience used to build the strength needed to live without violence in a violent world

Maoshan:
I disagree. It’s a known fact that the BS permeates almost all facets of this society. The real has to be seeked out. The more real the more hidden.
We are neither Taoist nor Buddhist living on top of Mt Huashan or Songshan. We live in a violent world getting more violent by the minute.
Peace is within. A saying by I believe Natural fist Master Tu Hsin Wu said “ There is no reason in the world to fight, but every reason to know how”. That was in the 1920’s. Where are we now? I understand where your coming from but it’s too idealistic. I live in the reality that is, not what I wish for.

Shaolinboxer:
It should bring all of us together, regardless of the nature of our practice, not just some of us.

Maoshan:
It’s the nature of our practice that separates us. Can the Moon Vie with the Sun? Can Flaw contend with flawless? Can you be yes and no at the same time? Actually you can, but you will lean toward more toward one or the other.

Peace

Maoshan

[shaolinboxer]

I find your lack of faith disturbing ;).

[shaolinboxer]

Maoshan -

As I now have a moment, I'd like to respond only to one of our disagreements, because, while your other arguments are typical of our culture of "orientalism" (see Donohue "Warrior Dreams"), your comments about the difference between artist, intellectual and dangerous martial artists does not really touch on the point I wanted to make.

I would define the artistic martial artist as those who use particularly graceful movements. They may do this for a variety of reasons, but ultimately their artistic adherence to form contributes greatly to martial function.

The intellectual martial artist beins with their mind, and begs their body to follow. They decontruct their movements, evaluate principals, and conduct thought experiments regading what psychological and cultural factor lead to things being done the way they are done. They read a lot. By fully grasping the evolution and meaning of what they are doing, they are able to dig very deep.

The dangerous martial artist has learned mostly the hard way...through physical experimentation, health threatening situations, and aggressive action. They often practice one way, but are filled with dirty tricks that they can use or teach to those they chose. Dangerous young men are often that way due to their willing to take risk. Dangerous older men are that way because they are seasoned and efficient.

As I said, most are a mix.

[Golden Arms]

Pawa-eri-to, I am always game to meet up with fellow MA and workout a bit on a weekend if I have time..I live in Seattle, and I know of at least one other MA that I was talking to about doing the same thing from KFO. Let me know if you are interested.

[maoshan]

Peace

Shaolinboxer –

I have plenty of faith; the question is, in what?

I hear what you’re saying, but it’s the people that reside in all 3 categories that I’m referring to. How many of them do you know? I’ve met very few. And it is they that will make great strides in their progress, in my opinion.

I do agree that we all begin in one of the categories you mentioned, but to progress you have to embrace the whole of the art.

That’s it for me

Peace

Maoshan

[NeedsPractice]

In defense and and offense
I live in NYC, I have seen the black taoist website and I have seen some of the black taoists posts, and maoshans posts.

1- The place where your school is located will have a great effect on who your students are, for the most part they will either live or work in the immediate area of the school, most people wont take the extra effort to travel to a school thats out of thier way on top of the effort it takes to go to martial arts classes. So if a school in a black neighborhood has mostly black students that should be expected. And maoshan has said they are open to anybody who trains seriously.
2- I agree with maoshan about people not training hard. I visited and still from time to time visit different schools, and the majority of them train for aboout an hour at a time and do little conditioning, so if the student doesnt stay in shape on thier own they aren't going to get into good shape from just going to the school. Alot of times they do a 5-10 minute warm up, do some stuff, take breaks in between and go home. To someone who is in poor shape it might seem like alot but to someone with fair to good conditioning, its nothing.
3- Alot of martial arts out there are "watered down". The more I train and practice and watch people at tournaments, and different schools I see it. I am not a great martial artist by any stretch of the imagination, but I am trying to be better than the average, and its pretty hard. There some things you can get away with based on your youth and athleticism but that fades, and the really good stuff isnt based on youth or athleticism.
4- I dont know maoshan, or the black taoist, I am not interested in training with them, but I think they are good at heart.
5- Good luck all. I will be watching at the tournament.