Is this a real challenge to Shaloin-Do from the Shaolin temple?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Heming,
A secular discuple of the Shaolin temple has gotten tired of the SD claims. He's offering a match at the next SD expedition to Shaolin.

Will WTS fight for his school's honor? Will Sin The' show'em 'whose the Grandmaster now', or will the SD crowd avoid this at all costs?

All I know is I'm volunteering to make dupes of the video tape and send the proceeds to the winning organization!
__________________________________________________
Heard that so called "Shaolin-XX" people will come to Shaolin Temple in
2001, I wish have a competetion between Shaolin Temple disciples (be called
dancers by fake "Shaolin"people), we can compare our kung fu to each other, and
the loser should make 500 videos of the competetion and distribute it free of
charge to the "Kung Fu On-Line" members...
the aim is for clearify the confusion and stop the mouth boxing...

anybody agree with this idea?

Heming

------------------
Heming
Shaolin Secular Disciple's Union,
Shaolin Temple, Mt.Song, Henan 452491, P.R.China
Tel: +86(371)2749172
Fax: +1(212)98143
ICQ#: 17145752
Email: heming@shaolintemple.zzn.com
http://www.topcities.com/Arts/heming/index.htm
http://shaolintemple.yeah.net

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[BeiKongHui]

Ha, the Shaolin Do people will never go for this. Do you think they'd risk all that potential $ for a silly thing like honor?

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[inpho]

Hah! I wish! That'd be so great, shame I've got little faith.

Amitabha

[suff0beast]

Where did you get that info? I am sure there is much more than just those few sentences. I would LOVE to see that competition/challenge in person, and it would be even BETTER to make a full statement of SD/CSC w/ Shaolin (Temple) to win and embarass(sp?) the SD group. Indeed this would determine the Authenticity of SD and DEFINITELY strengthen our faith in the Shaolin histories of the true disciples.

Rick

[MonkeySlap Too]

I pulled it from the thread 'welcome from Shaolin temple' or something like that started by henming.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Radhnoti]

I'd be interested in knowing if this was a true challenge...and to who as well. Anyone willing to contact him?

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'll send him an e-mail if noone else will.

All his contact info is on his post.

If you read the other thread, it sounds like the Shaolin Temple is not entirely thrilled with Sin The' and his group.

It will be interesting to see the 'original' Shaolin of Sin The' go up against the 'wushu dancers'. I know who my money is on and he doesn't live in Kentucky...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Shaolindynasty]

What if the Shaolin Do fighter won? :eek:

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Crimson Phoenix]

Does TWS have to step up to any challenge against Shaolin-do?? LOL poor guy, his road is quite long...seriously, if he steps up for just one challenge and gives it his best, we should give him a rest, no?
LOL

[MonkeySlap Too]

Check out the thread 'greatings from Shaolin' or some such.

It's interesting.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I was trying to be funny about the WTS line. Either school should just field whoever is ready.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[RENEGADE_MONK]

Whatever happened to "drunkenostrich"..there has not been a post from him since the original thread
???

[HuangKaiVun]

reemul, stumblefist, self-thinking-follower, WHERE ARE YOU GUYS?

You guys think Shaolin is fake. SHOW us all.

[The Willow Sword]

i used to know Drunkenostrich,,he unfortunately died. We all miss him very much :( . when D.O. was doing his organic gardening his shears accidentally becaome posessed with the spirit of heming's communist Shaolin Voodoo,,the chi was SSSOOO powerful that it reached him and his head was chopped off....the news papers labeled it a BIZZARRE GARDENING ACCIDENT. THE HEAD was never found..there are rumors that it resides in the secret chamber of the shaolin hall of subjugated enemies. :( its sad... and we all miss him VERY much. VERY VERY MUCH :( oh my im getting teary eyed................................gotta go man....sssorryy :(


Drunken ostrich: born 1971 died 2000 in the summer of his life,,,,we mourn you and miss you.
REST IN PEACE.

Many Respects,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[RENEGADE_MONK]

LOL...I know I was just wondering, I take it you care for his garden now? ;)

[reemul]

You wanna pay for my trip I'll be happy to throw down some classical shaolin kungfu against some
Neo-temple inhabitants. I'll start with Hemming and move my way up.

how about we decide on a time that fits in my schedule, you buy the roundtrip plane ticket in my name and provide me with accommidations during my stay, and its ON LIKE DONKEY KONG!! you can come along as well, maybe you'll learn something.

Or maybe Hemming and the Shaolin Temple wish to sponser my trip. They can think of it as sort of a homecoming.

BRING THE NOISE!!

[This message was edited by reemul on 08-24-01 at 10:56 PM.]

[HuangKaiVun]

reemul, you have earned my respect!

You are willing to challenge the temple, win or lose.


As Ogami Itto said in "Lone Wolf and Cub", one must throw himself into the fire to pluck the chestnuts.

[HuangKaiVun]

One question, reemul.

Is your sifu a Buddhist?

[The Willow Sword]

IT is ironic that REEMUL and myself agree about the shaolin temple and heming,,HOWEVER,,,,,its a billion chinese to one REEMUL,,,,Even I would not subject myself those overwhelming suicidal odds.
Many Respects,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

[HuangKaiVun]

reemul, I apologize for not having enough money to send you to NYC.

I'd suggest going against Shi YanMing (Shaolin's San Da champ in the early 90s) or Shi Guolin (The Iron Arhat).

I'd love to see your "classical shaolin kungfu" going against that of those two "Neo-temple inhabitants".

[inpho]

It's easy to make threats, Reemul, when you know no one will accept and send you to China.

If you don't mind my asking, which style do you train in and for how long have you been training? I haven't been paying attention to the other threads between you and (I think it was) Willow Sword so if you've said there I appologise.

Amitabha

[reemul]

I have not made threats to anyone. I just don't cater to the expectations of people who think I'll lie down in the face those so called Shaolin practioners that hail from the Neo-temple. I have never been impressed with YanMing and the hell if I'll cowtow to him or anybody else from the Neo-temple. I don't wish bad things upon him, but I don't consider him to be the authority on Shaoiln kungfu. If we ever cross paths and he wants to throw, then its on.

Oh yeah if you want to know what I study, no disrespect, but go and read the other thread. I get tired of posting it.

[HuangKaiVun]

reemul, could you explain to us why you don't consider Shi Yan Ming to be the authority on Shaolin kung fu?

I'm pretty impressed with Shi Yan Ming myself. I'd love to hear your reasons as to why YOU aren't impressed with him - maybe I'm missing something.

What is it about your style (couldn't find it in your "Challenge" post) that makes it superior to what they do in the "Neo-Temple"?

[Lost_Disciple]

Regardless of my opinion of the new temple and the kung fu practised there, I gotta give props to Yan Ming. I haven't heard anything about him being a san da champ, just that he used to fight in the shaolin san da which is a bit different than the main san da org in china- but at least he fights. He also has an open challenge to anyone who wants to talk trash about him or his fellow monks. Dunno if he'll back it up, but those seem to be the words of someone who believes in what he's doing. Much respect.
.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[inpho]

reemul, *shrug* I'm not particularly interested, this is turning into another one of those "my style is better than your's" arguments and frankly I think we're all above that.

Amitabha

[HuangKaiVun]

Well, I'M interested.

reemul thinks his style is better than what's taught at the "Neo Temple".

Personally, I think that the Shaolin chuan taught at the "Neo Temple" is GREAT stuff.

If reemul's style is better, I want to know WHY so that I can do it myself.

[reemul]

I think Style superiority is an irrellevant concept. Whether my style is superior or not is not my concern. The foundation of my stance is What is Shaolin Kungfu and what is not. This is not to be confused with, what is superior to whatever else. Cotemporary Wushu athlets are impressive, however that does not make them Shaolin kungfu practioners. The new temple was resurected with Wushu practioners to make cash fro the government. There history of the Northern animal systems is non existant. They refer to forms where as we refer to whole systems Which leads me to believe they only have traces of whole systems at best. We have a whole system intact.

Personally I don't think fighting or challenging other systems will prove anything, but people have trespassed for too long on the Shaolin name.
Some just to make money. Others try to redefine it and some just don't have a clue. I concede that the Neo-temple is still the Shaolin Temple(a place) and by default whatever MA that comes out of there is Shaolin Kunfu (redfined by its reconstruction having been disjointed from the masters), but it is not what it once was for that reason. As for the challenge with the SD people I see it as a matter of respect. If you're going to infringe upon the Shaolin name and try to redefine centuries of lineage to suite your needs, that seems to me to show a great deal of disrespect.

As for YanMing, he may be the authority on the Newly reconstructed disjointed Shaolin Kungfu but that is all.

[joedoe]

What makes you think that what they show the world is actually what they practice? How do you know they don't practice 'real' Shaolin kung fu away from the crowds?

I know that when I trained with some of the monks at the Southern Temple in Quanzhou, they excellent martial artists and there was nothing fake about their kung fu. What they show you may well be very different to what they train.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[reemul]

The Shaolin masters left the country during the communist takeover. That is why I refer to the temple's material as disjointed.

[HuangKaiVun]

So what would be an example of "jointed" as opposed to "disjointed" kung fu, reemul?

From your posts, it seems that I have no idea what "real Shaolin kung fu" is all about. Yet you claim you have a "whole system intact".

What is this wonderful system? What is its name? Who are its practitioners (other than reemul?) What kind of techniques do they exhibit? What is its relation to Buddhism?

These are all questions I basically asked above - and would love answered. Could you help me, reemul?


And if the Shaolin-do people steal the forms from the monks and use them effectively, what's wrong with that?

Authentic or not, a technique is still a technique. If it came (was stolen) from Shaolin, it's Shaolin kung fu . . . period.

[HuangKaiVun]

Just saw the "Northern Shaolin Tiger" response by reemul on the other thread. Thanks!

Is this style related to the one I've seen on the bookshelves?

My other questions still stand.

[joedoe]

Many of the masters of the original Shaolin arts were invited to bring the art back to China. The original arts are making their way back to Shaolin. Just because they perform wushu for the crowds does not mean that they do not learn the old arts.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[reemul]

To HuangKaiVun: No time now, I'll try and answer some of your questions later this week email me.

[HuangKaiVun]

Cool.

[reemul]

Our master was sought after way back when they were first "rebuilding the temple" needless the say he didnt go back. We are pretty much all thats left of our system. So the chances of the temple getting this system back is unlikely.

[Royal Dragon]

Why don't you guys go back to Shaolin and help restore what was lost? It seems that instead of condemming the Temple, why don't you help it recover? That makes the most sense to me.


Besides, I dought they don't teach entire systems. I'm willing to bet that they infact DO train, practice and teach entire systems to those looking to learn. Remember, often entire systems ARE contained in a single form, and the rest of those forms we normally see are just choragraphed off the main one in order to aid in progressive teaching of the system anyway.

Somehow, I don't see true Shaolin Kung Fu being dead there. ESPECIALLY if they are only money motivated. From a purely Money oriented perspective, I think Traditional traing would be a must!! I'm sure modern Wushu sells, but for those persuing careers in the arts Traditional training is the only way to go (and every one knows it), and the demamd alone would dictate it's existance at Shaolin, even if it had to be re-introduced by outside masters, such as your own.

Just a thought,

Royal Dragon


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[mortal]

reemul
I really enjoy your posts you tell it like it is and thats cool. I have a question.
How do you know for a fact that there is no real shaolin kung fu at the temple? Were you there during the cultural revolution? Can I read this info somewhere? I am interested in the pursuit of real kung fu and I got to tell you Yan ming and Hengxin sure have me fooled. To be honest I have never seen anyone that comes close to their kung fu or their conditioning. If a master does exist that is better I would love to here about where he is located so I can move there. I look forward to your response.

[sean_stonehart]

Sorry to chime in so late on this, but I was at Shaolin in June with GM The' & everybody there was nothing but nice. We spent a day & a half there, met with Yong Xin & even traded forms with several guys at the mouth of Damo's cave on Songshan. Everybody there was nothing but very nice.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats.

-- H.L. Mencken

[reemul]

Take a look around.

The animal systems are not summed up in one form. Forms carry with them each, different theory and applications and focus.
Before kungfu was popularized by Bruce Lee, the masters were here and training only family members for the most part. The real masters were not in the habit of Pimping out their art/lifestyle. What brought kungfu out into the mainstream were karate schools such as SD claiming to be Shaolin or kungfu in general, to capitalize off the surge of interrest Bruce Lee brought to Kungfu. But even still the masters were not willing to share their way of life to just anyone. Even when they were in China the masters did open the gates to just anyone. Thats were stories of waiting for days in the hope that someone would let you in. This was a test. This showed a persons willingness and drive to commit to something. Such a person would not shall we say, prove to be a slacker(2day a week pracitioner, makes up excuses to not workout.) The problem here in america not everyone is that dedicated. When I meet someone and the subject of MA comes up and they say "I take this or that" or "I'm a blackbelt in this" in my head I'm thinking :rolleyes:. You see the masters look for people willing to dedicate their lives to the study. Americans just want a cool patch or belt to show off.

The latest propaganda the temple passively pushes is that a form or two is representative of a system. NOT!! You'll notice, looking outside of China you see schools that specialize in a particular animal system. This supports my possition of Shaolin master exodus from China. In speaking with people from who have gone to the temple they try to say these systems are provided in one or two forms, thats odd because prior to the masters leaving China each animal system was said to comprise a lifetime of material and this view is supported in the schools outside the China. Many of the Northern Animal masters were put on a hit list and marked for execution by the communist government,which is what sparked the masters exodus from China. Our masters Grandfather(head of the Northern Shaolin Tiger family)was one of them. Unfortunately a lot of the animal systems have died off. Ours would have to if not for our masters decision to pass on the knowledge.
You see His grandfather and father did not open a kungfu school, they just passed it on within the family. Out of our masters benevolence he chose to pass it to my instructor, haveing no child of his own. From what I hear it was a hard decisions for him. Interrestingly enough,In choosing to pass on his knowledge our master did not charge a fee.

[This message was edited by reemul on 08-29-01 at 08:48 PM.]

[HuangKaiVun]

reemul, what will you gain by showing the world that you have the real Shaolin kung fu and the "Neo Temple" (as well as the black belts and Bruce Lee types) does not?

According to your posts, the reputation of your style is secure. So is your lineage and its practitioners. You have nothing to gain by badmouthing Shaolin and its proponents.

Eevn if you prove to the entire world that Shaolin and Shaolin-Do are completely fake, how will that change your life for the better?

[Nexus]

HuangKaiVun has made a really good point IMO reemul. What have you to gain from all of this anyways? It seems like there is something deeper that is causing you to have the issues with the Shaolin rather then just letting it be. It's not as if because we disagree that Scientology is effective, we make it our goal to actively diss scientology and try to break down scientologists. We just let them be, and if they find out for themselves then great. It seems as if you have some searching to do but I doubt you will be honest with yourself although mostly you seem to be pretty honest with us.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[r.(shaolin)]

The point is one of mis-representation not necessarily one of validity or even effectiveness.
If an individual wants to master any skill, or any subject for that matter, there is a 10,000 hr. rule.
This means 60 hours per week for about three and a half years ( or 30 hs. per week for 7 years etc. and course it doesn't mean you'll make it : - ) There is an obligation we have to individuals who wish to master a traditional Shaolin martial art and not a recent mix / compilation.
Being mislead or tricked i nto investing this kind of time into something that is not what its made out to be, it is simply unjust. Although I've stated it else where, that's my problem with PRC Shaolin as well.l

[danny from miami]

Eevn if you prove to the entire world that Shaolin and Shaolin-Do are completely fake, how will that change your life for the better?

- that isnt the point. no one cares how it will change their life. the guy just wants to show people the truth

[Silumkid]

Sorry Nexus, but I must disagree with you a little...I do everything I can to make people aware of how the Church of Scientology is based on fiction, and nonsense. Scientology is evil and must be stopped. Much like the Christians of days gone by, Scientology has killed in the name of their so-called religion. Check out www.xenu.net (http://www.xenu.net) to get the full picture of these "people". Evil must be destroyed!

Reemul, I also must take issue with your position that a style that has few forms cannot be a "real" style or a "full" style. As I am sure you may be familiar, Wing Chun has only three hand forms but is considered a complete art. Just ask any of the Wing Chunners here.

Also, if I am not mistaken, some Tai Chi styles have one form. No one has ever accused Tai Chi (taught correctly) of being incomplete either. I can't remember the person's name but there is a man who was rumored to practice only three POSTURES of Tai Chi was extremely powerful.

Don't get me wrong, I would never hand a blind man an egg and tell him it was an orange...but I also wouldn't tell him he needs a dozen eggs when he only needs one.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[mortal]

Reemul
A quick point. I agree one form does not constitute a style. Shaolin is a mix of all styles. A little of each. They all have something to share. From what I have seen the shaolin animal forms are different from the wushu animals. Other styles besides shaolin have all the animals in them. Hsing i has 12 or something. Shaolin in as a whole wasn't invented by Tamo. From what I heard he did invent the 5 animal play and the lohan forms besides the chi gung stuff. Lohan and animals have been expanded and changed ever since. Kung fu was at practiced at temples all over China. The Shaolin temple invited all the famous martial artists in asia to come and train for four year periods. Masters from japan trained there as well. That way the monks could pick and chose what they liked from all the different styles. Many masters just focused on one style while others trained in many. Monks it seemed trained in a little bit of all. That is what Shi Yan Ming told me.

I know what you mean about people that only train twice a week. Some people have jobs that take time and energy away from training. I think it is more about quality not quantity anyway. For example I train 3 times a week. My legs are sore constantly from pushing myself as hard as I can for three hours at a shot. Even if I had the time I wouldn't train too much more.

I can see what your saying about Shaolin Do not being chinese. On the site I saw the word kata. They also talk of learning these short forms. i have never seen them but judging by the names they sound like movements or peices of forms instead of the whole thing. I am not attacking or taking sides but I could see questioning something like that. It took me two years to learn three forms at my school. Another thing i found interesting was they mention about how over time people will find it easier to remember their forms. Now I admit I am a burn out on some level but I couldn't forget my kung fu if I tryed. Forgetting form is unheard of were I train. Isn't the do in shaolin-do Japanese? I mean no harm just asking.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Mortal,
It is not uncommon for Indonesian CMA people to adopt Japanese trappings. This is because the Chinese population in Indonesia supported the communist revoloution in the 60's. Chinese culture was opporessed for some time after that. So we really can't fault them on that point.

Actually I see no point in this - until they all drink the purple cool-aid and the comet comes, there won't be any straight talk from the SD clan.

Remember, people WANT to beleive. They do not want to think they were fooled. They DO NOT CARE if the flavor and approach of thier material is JMA rather than CMA. They BELEIVE that they are doing the 'original' combat forms and we are all 'wushu dancers'.

I am finished with this. Radhnoti seems like a fairly together fellow. WTS seems like a nice enough sort, but his posts reflect, well, some things he needs to work on.

I no longer care. Anything beyond this and I'll have to start pulling out my first hand experiences with SD people. And that would be just cruel, and unfair because it was a limited sampling.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[mortal]

Monkeyslap too

You fought(sparred) some of the shaolin-do guys? I would love to here more about that. If you don't want to talk about it here send me an e-mail. Then we can have a more candid convo.
Talk soon

[Silumkid]

Just a quick note, Tamo (Bodhidharma) did not invent the 5 animal play. It was an emperor and I think his name was Yue somethingorother....

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[mortal]

Not that his word is law or anything. after all he is just a hired actor. He did tell me this(5 animal play) as fact in his mind. That was my source. I just beleived him because he's from China and I am a stupid american who fell for the old fake monk trick. Maybe one day i could get my 3rd degree black sash in real traditional american kung fu. You never know look what the brazilians did with jujitsu.

[reemul]

A lot of you seem to confuse style with system, they are not interchangable. A form is generally indicative of a style eg. Chang chuan. A Style represents a specific set of theory and application. The animal systems where each comprised of many styles, however each specialized in and created forms indicitive of the animal traits it specialized in. I'm not saying a system can't be represented in one form. I'm just saying the animal systems were not each represented by one or two forms. The animal systems each had many forms.

Now dont chastise me cause someone wants to come challenge me, that wasn't my decission. However I do stand by my convictions about SD. As for the temple their actions speak louder than words. :confused:

[MonkeySlap Too]

Just for the public record, I am referring to interaction with SD people. That does not particularly mean fighting. I do not publicly discuss challenges or friendly sparring as it just is not polite.

Frankly, the conversations are funny enough. And to be fair, I am talking a small sample. I'm sure every group that size has its wonky people.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yeah, the actions of the temple speak louder than words.

I sure wouldn't like to hear the crushing sound of a monk's fist crashing into a Shaolin skeptic.

[reemul]

What would you do if I beat down on of your respected Monks, would it change you mind about the temple? if not, then what difference does it make. You are still going to believe what you choose to. Jus accept the fact that not all of us
share you view. If you are intent on bringing about such a challenge then find people willing and set it up. All the wishful intentions in the world are not going to ease your frustration.

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't think any of us here believe that you can beat a Shaolin monk, reemul.

[reemul]

..but you missed the point.